New Era article on porn

[helemon]

Where's Ed when we need him?

Who’s It Hurting?
Name Withheld

Pornography’s poison also affected my feelings of self-worth as a young woman.

“Who’s It Hurting?” New Era, Jan. 2006, 34
My brothers and I did everything together growing up. We journeyed together from training wheels to driver education class. They asked me to dance when no one else would and stayed up late getting my advice about the girls they liked. They’ve always been my best friends and protectors. I want to marry someone who loves and respects me the way my brothers do.

But there’s something that poisons the kind of relationship I’m looking for. I first became aware of it with a close friend of mine. He and I grew up together from Primary lessons to high school dances and cared about each other deeply. I was excited to see him get ready to serve a mission. Then one day he had a look on his face that made me think he was going to announce he had a terminal illness. He blurted out he would have to delay his mission because of morality problems he’d had that started with pornography. I felt so bad for him. I still cared about him and all the memories I had with him, but the blow was a difficult one for me to handle.

My experience with my friend made me think. Even if I never viewed pornography myself, I realized it could still hurt me if people I loved chose to look at it.

As I reached the age to seriously consider marriage, I discovered an even more personal way pornography could hurt me. As I dated one young man, we became close enough that I told him about my fear of pornography. Being sensitive to my fears, he told me about his struggles with it. He told me he didn’t realize at the time that his choice to view pornography would hurt someone he hadn’t met yet.

By now I was carrying around a bundle of questions that grew larger the more I realized how widespread pornography’s poison was. Did every boy have problems with pornography? The more I thought about the effects of pornography, the more discouraged I became. Most young women feel insecure about their appearance, and I was no exception. Pornography’s degrading emphasis on the physical only increased the pressure I already felt about my appearance. Every time a boy looked at me I thought, “What is he really thinking?”

I might have been overwhelmed by my fears if I didn’t have such good, loving brothers. I knew there must be other guys like them.

Then one day I was shopping with my younger brother. As we were driving home, he said that every store we went in had posters and magazines with inappropriate images of women displayed everywhere. His voice was full of nervousness as he proceeded to tell me he had looked a little at pornography and later repented of it but felt so discouraged when everywhere he went he was bombarded with it. He mentioned that my other brothers had struggled with similar problems.

At first I didn’t know what to think. I couldn’t believe that my brother had involved himself in something like that. But looking at his eyes filled with tears and pain made me realize how hard it is to stay clean in a world where we are confronted by inappropriate images every day.

I could tell that my little brother felt horrible, but I wanted him to know how pornography made me feel. I told him how hurt and how afraid I felt because of pornography and the power it had over those I cared about. He listened intently and said he hadn’t realized how awful it made girls feel. He apologized for hurting me.

Satan wanted my brothers and friends to believe that if viewed in private, pornography wouldn’t hurt anyone. Satan also wanted to convince me that I could never trust anyone and that I would never be truly loved.

Satan is a liar.

My dad’s example gives me hope. He cherishes and respects my mother. Every time women or physical love are displayed in inappropriate ways on TV, my dad changes the channel. I see the deep respect and love my parents have for each other, and that’s what I want for myself and my brothers in our future marriages. That kind of love is seldom portrayed in movies and never in pornography.

My brother later told me that every time he saw women displayed inappropriately, he thought of not disappointing me and turned the other way. These images became less enticing as he realized that he was looking at someone’s mother, sister, wife, or daughter, that he was hurting people he loved, and that he could poison the way he would see his future wife.

Understanding what pornography does to my brothers and to me only strengthens their resolve to stay away from it. And now that I’m more aware of what boys are facing, I do everything I can to help them stay strong, like trying to dress modestly, choosing not to watch inappropriate movies or TV shows, and letting them know how I feel when they talk about women in inappropriate ways.

Gospel topics: media, morality, temptation

Editor’s note: Your bishop or branch president can provide much needed spiritual guidance and help with pornography-related problems. For professional help, contact the LDS Family Services office nearest you by visiting www.ldsfamilyservices.org or by e-mailing lds-fshelp@ldschurch.org.

Extra! Extra!
For more information on avoiding pornography, you can read these articles in the Gospel Library at www.lds.org: Q&A: “Pornography is ruining my life. …” (New Era, Aug. 2005); “A Tragic Evil among Us” (Ensign, Nov. 2004), by President Gordon B. Hinckley; and “Danger Ahead! Avoiding Pornography’s Trap” (New Era, Oct. 2002).

[Born Free]

Where's Ed when we need him?

They are so full of fear, that they cannot get it into their head that there are several variables here:

Porn
Their anxiety about porn
The belief system that has instilled about porn and the resultant anxiety
The people/organisations that benefits from their anxiety

Porn is porn. Most of it is about as erotic as an old boot. But eroticism has a valued role. Mos cannot conceive how sex is used to make them like sheep, to render them easily led.

The above sounds so much like a child and their fear about the 'bogeyman'. Evil is out there, led by Satan, and it wants our very souls. Circle the wagons! Get a f##king life! I have a clear idea of where the evil lies, and it ain't OUT THERE!

I have recently dealt with a man who was raised in a religious environment, that included a mother who was paranoid about sex. He told me that of a night, whether he was asleep or not, she would come to his room and feel his crotch to see if he had an erection, and slap him if he did. She would also rip open the shower curtain when he was in there, attempting to catch him masturbating.

Sadly this man had not even considered that what he experienced was sexual abuse, and that it may have been a major contributor to some of his distrust of his own masculinity.

Daryl

[helemon]

Sadly this man had not even considered that what he experienced was sexual abuse, and that it may have been a major contributor to some of his distrust of his own masculinity.

Daryl

Where would religion be with out the whipping post of sex?

[free thinker]

This might sound a bit lascivious but in my opinion pornography is pretty much one of those adult pleasures that has been around for at least two thousand years. And like beer, wine, good cigars, chocolate cake, and great hot sex, it aint goin away.

I can't tell anyone else what to do, or how to feel about pornography. Their deal. But for me folks, I am going to enjoy it. That's right. I am going to enjoy it. And if that don't suit the mollies well all I can say is tuff sh**!!

I wont be taking lessons in morality from mormons or any other religious organization. When men stop slitting the throats of their daughters in god's name, and sundry other religious activities, like Turkish men performing Clitorectomies on their daughters, then I will consider letting god have sway in my sexual choices.

This poor girl's husband will probably never see her naked in the light of day. No, No, I have to have the lights off!! :rolleyes: Later in the evening when she is asleep he will be browsing away. One hand on the mouse, one on the wood ! G'nite Dear

ft

[firefly]

I wont be taking lessons in morality from mormons or any other religious organization. When men stop slitting the throats of their daughters in god's name, and sundry other religious activities, like Turkish men performing Clitorectomies on their daughters, then I will consider letting god have sway in my sexual choices.

ft

Just wanted to point out that while female genital mutilation is rampant in many countries, Turkey is not one of them. There are isolated reports that it happens, but it is typically non-Turks living within Turkey that practice it.

I have several Turkish friends and I feel a little protective.

[firefly]

This might sound a bit lascivious but in my opinion pornography is pretty much one of those adult pleasures that has been around for at least two thousand years. And like beer, wine, good cigars, chocolate cake, and great hot sex, it aint goin away.

ft

But for most of those two thousand years, it wasn't available in every possible variation for free and to all ages at the push of a button. Finding a Playboy is one thing, finding Hot Horny Barely Legal Babes during a casual google search is another.

Frankly, when I read the article, what struck me wasn't so much the religious aspect of her POV, as much as the fact that I know SO MANY non-Mo women who have the same kind of queasy sad history/relationship with porn. In this case, I'm just seeing an old story with a Mormon film over it. For over 6 years I've been an active member of an online women's community (that has absolutely nothing to do with religion) and it's a constant theme - women (progressive "sex-positive" feminist women) struggling as they deal with their boyfriend's/husband's/father's/brother's cavalier attitude about pornography. Of course it's a non-issue for some - maybe many - but to say that an anti-porn attitude is all about that darn old no-fun anti-sex Christianity is to miss something important about the experience of a lot of women.

So most of it is "as erotic as an old boot"? Thats little consolation to some of my (non-mo) girlfriends whose husbands can't/won't give it up jerking off to porn though it makes their wives feel like shit - (and simultaneously makes them feel guilty for not being more "open minded.")

[lunaverse]

Is it the pr0n that makes the girl feel bad? Or the church that shames her body and her sexuality? So that when she thinks of porn, or sees a beer ad with a half-naked woman, all she can think about is her own lack of sexiness, her own distaste for such things, and her own self-loathing?

And how screwed up is her brother going to be when he gets married? Every time he looks a a half-naked woman and gets a hardon, and then thinks that the girl is someone's sister or mother? Now when his wife is naked before him, how screwed up is his mental and emotional wiring going to be?? He has linked all these non-related topics together in a muddled lump.

And what is up with this notion that women who pose for photos and movies are being exploited? As if none of them want to be there? As if all women deplore sex as much as religious prudes, who feel ashamed to be ****ed, who are body-shy and camera-shy? Don't they realize that at least some -- many -- maybe even MOST -- women who pose for porn are into it? That they like it? That it might be possible some women like sex *as much as men*??

Doesn't this girl realize she's been robbed?? That something precious has been taken away from her, and it's NOT her chastity?? That on her wedding night, when she's with her special someone, that she's going to be all ****ed up about sex, that her brain and emotions will be all confused? That it's not like a light switch? That you can't have sex turned off all your life and then suddenly turn it on when you're officially wed?

It wasn't porn that took it away from her. It wasn't her friend who couldn't go on a mission. It wasn't the dark secret of her brothers. It was the CHURCH. The Church took away her sexuality, took away her body-pride, took away her friend's self-worth, and gave her those illusions about her brothers so that they could be snapped away when reality hit.

Of all the issues I'm left with after the Church was done with me, this is my most sore spot. This is the issue I'm still firey and emotional about. Sex.

That's how I feel... robbed. I feel programmed, like a robot. I can *say* sex is good, I can talk about sex, I've explored all kinds of sexual situations... but the emotions and recesses of the subconscious? The places that are harder to fix? Can I enjoy sex? No. I can't even wear short skirts, flirt, or initiate intimacy with someone I've been dating, or do anything that isn't prompted from an external source.

I'm still the passive, unfeeling machine... so modest and lady-like. So ready to do the bidding of a man... but only if he bids it.

It wasn't porn that did this to me. It was the Church. So **** them, and **** the New Era.

And that girl? I hope she finds a really good therapist. Because she's going to need one.

Luna

[Born Free]

But for most of those two thousand years, it wasn't available in every possible variation for free and to all ages at the push of a button. Finding a Playboy is one thing, finding Hot Horny Barely Legal Babes during a casual google search is another.

Frankly, when I read the article, what struck me wasn't so much the religious aspect of her POV, as much as the fact that I know SO MANY non-Mo women who have the same kind of queasy sad history/relationship with porn. In this case, I'm just seeing an old story with a Mormon film over it. For over 6 years I've been an active member of an online women's community (that has absolutely nothing to do with religion) and it's a constant theme - women (progressive "sex-positive" feminist women) struggling as they deal with their boyfriend's/husband's/father's/brother's cavalier attitude about pornography. Of course it's a non-issue for some - maybe many - but to say that an anti-porn attitude is all about that darn old no-fun anti-sex Christianity is to miss something important about the experience of a lot of women.

So most of it is "as erotic as an old boot"? Thats little consolation to some of my (non-mo) girlfriends whose husbands can't/won't give it up jerking off to porn though it makes their wives feel like shit - (and simultaneously makes them feel guilty for not being more "open minded.")

Firefly & Luna,

I won't repeat what I have said on this site previously, that in essence two issues run in parallel here for me:

Sex/porn/erotica is not the issue that religous folks claim it is, and

Many men, who are technically depressed, use porn as others use drugs, booze, adrenalin etc, to mood-alter their depression.

I suspect that it is the latter that is most depressing to many women, AND at the same time, many women remain blind to the toxic sexual shaming they have taken on board from their mothers primarily, which they in turn project onto men. (Read Nancy Friday's The Beauty Myth)

I also want to acknowledge Lunaverse's pain on this issue. The sexual centres of the brain are very old, very powerful, and once screwed with, take heaps of work and patience to sort out. I hear your pain, and energy around this. Go for it! Have a good vent, because it is probably getting you closer to recovering your sexual spontenaity. The damage done to people in this area, in the name of God, is an obscenity IMO.

I also am increasingly excited about Sam Keene's work on male sexual shaming and split-off in his excellent book - Hymns to an Unknown God. Many men suffer under thw illusion that women are the only ones with a problem with sex, and deny their own wounds, and suffer under the illusion that some 'sexually uninhibited gal' is all they need to feel OK! Well BS, I say. Men need to feel and heal their own sexual wounds and cease projecting that onto women.

Daryl

[bobcat]

Wow, that is a heavy-hitting article. And absolutely disturbing on many, many levels. I agree with what has been said so far: this girl (as many LDS youth) is so frightened of sex/porn that she'll probably never have a healthy sex life herself. And the amount of guilt she heaps on her brother, boyfriend, and friend is sickening too. When someone tells you they've had a problem with porn (even a very small one), they're telling you this because they want your support and understanding. The last thing they need is for you to tell them how disgusted you are with them and how much they've hurt you. They already feel bad enough for god's sake! What good does it do to pour salt on the wound while at the same time bragging about your own righteousness?

Now porn is an interesting subject for me, because aversion to it was one of the last relics of my Mormon past to be discarded. I didn't watch my first pornographic movie until long after I had stopped going to church, started drinking, or smoked my first cigar. I'm certain that this aversion came from my attitude towards it during my youth. When I was a TBM (or at least trying to be), I held an ultra-orthodox view on porn: no pictures, movies, magazines, etc, for any reason. I thought it would destroy me and my ability to love my future spouse, and all those other things. I wanted to be one of those guys that the girl in the New Era story could ask about pornography, and state that I had never, EVER watched it. I'd be the hero.

But, the sexual frustration of a single young man really weighed on me. I didn't WATCH porn, but I worked out my hormones by telling dirty jokes, reading erotic stories, lusting after girls in the mall, chatting dirty on the internet, sneaking glances at a friend with particularly nice breasts, etc. At the time, I saw nothing wrong with it, but now I look back and realize that I was as big of a pervert as anyone else my age.

When I saw my first porno movie, I was suprised to find that I didn't feel the least bit "dirty". I actually felt quite relieved and content, as I worked out all kinds of sexual frustrations and fought the taboos in my mind. Since that day, I've found myself better able to cope with the sexual frustrations of everyday life, and I see no need to be crass and rude and dirty in my other behaviour. And you know what else? I haven't become "addicted" to porn either, like the church tells everyone they will. It ends up that porn, like many of you have said, is an adult pleasure that can be enjoyed responsibly and make a person happier. I wish I would have figured that out sooner.

It's going to take a LONG time to deprogram my mind of all the stupid sexual mores that I held to my whole life. I'm still haunted by all kinds of demons, but at least I know that eventually I'll be able to work out a more normal intimate life with someone than a lot of my TBM friends ever will.

[dogzilla]

Just wanted to point out that while female genital mutilation is rampant in many countries, Turkey is not one of them. There are isolated reports that it happens, but it is typically non-Turks living within Turkey that practice it.

I have several Turkish friends and I feel a little protective.

Well, now I don't have to do that.

Thanks.

ft: You're thinking of Nigeria and central Africa mostly, although some arab countries also use the practice. It's usually done by female elders in the tribe, often a girls' own mother or grandmother. Google "female gential mutilation" for an eye-popping, enlightening reading experience.
:eek:

[dogzilla]

Rather than simply echo what Luna said... I'll just confess.

I'm one of the founding "members" (huh huh) of the Tallahassee Porn on Demand Club, which is now defunct and no longer meeting. I know, rowr Dogzilla... :D

Seriously, I was sitting around with a few friends one night and we were all talking about porn. We'd come to the conclusion that there really isn't anything wrong with it, but none of us had really had that much exposure to it. (All puns in this post are totally intended. :cool: ) Nobody could say what was good porn, what was bad porn, what was exploitive or offensive, or what was titillating and exciting. Like a Mormon bride, we didn't know what we liked. ;)

So we started meeting at each other's houses once a month, ordering pizza and drinking beers and taking turns screening porn films. We met for about two years and probably saw a couple dozen films. These were NOT sex parties, and there were no orgies. In fact, we had a no-couples-touching rule: while we are watching a film, couples shall not sit together or touch each other and singles shall keep their hands in sight at all times. We were trying to create a safe space for shedding some light on something that had been made into a mysterious enigma by our parents and society. We didn't want anyone to feel weird about it at all. There was no pressure on anyone to participate and if you found something offensive, you were welcome to leave or take whatever action you felt necessary. What people did on their own time with porn, I couldn't say and wouldn't want to speculate on. I'm not aware of anyone becoming really aroused or uncontrollable during our meetings. Mostly we heckled and made fun of the music and writing. (It wasn't really a sexual environment at all.)

I learned the following:
• Some porn actually sucks. But everybody's taste is very different.
• I prefer 1970's cheesy porn. Behind the Green Door is one of the best movies out there. I also like porn with a plot. Gay male porn makes me laugh. I can't stand lesbian porn. (yawn) Most porn made after the mide 1980's I find mostly offensive because the people are full of silicone and their gentials are shaved into topiary and it's just not real. It's like watching a sitcom to see what real life is like. Nuh-uh.
• Japanese anime porn is something I would have never considered watching. Not titillating for me, but interesting, nevertheless. Anime porn taught me that I hate anime.
• Very little porn actually turns me on. I rarely to never view it by myself. Just not something I'll be adding to my lengthy list of addictions.
• In fact, none of us came to rely on porn for any sort of turn on. Many club members still partake, but it becomes part of their sexual repertoire, like the occasional use of sex toys or oral sex. Just because it can be a good thing doesn't mean you always have to do it that way, right?
• People who become "addicted" to porn, IMHO, have other hangups that affect their sexual identities and preferences, but that doesn't necessarily make it the porn's fault. I take issue with the term "addicted to porn" anyway, because to me, "addicted" means the body cannot physically function without a given substance. Like heroin. That's a truly addictive substance. Trying to quit can kill you if you don't approach it carefully. Stopping porn might make it tough for a guy to get a hardon, but he can still work, eat, breathe, sleep, and function in society without it. It's not a true addiction, by my definition of the word. It actually annoys me quite a bit how "addiction" is thrown around and applied to all sorts of situations that really aren't addiction at all. Anyone who's witnessed drug addiction or alcohol addiction may agree with me here: there's a big damn difference between not being able to function without a nose full of coke and not getting wood because there's no EE-cup porn hottie in the room...

That said, I'm well aware that some people can and do become dependent upon porn and are unable to find joy in sex or eroticism any other way. That's called "fetishism" and it is treatable. (Daryl, am I wrong here?)

My opinion, bottom line: There's more value in a little porn than there is in demonizing it altogether. Once again, moderation in all things is the key. Go figure. I apply a principle I learned from the church to refute the church's nonsense.

[meinmachine]

Ahh Porn, one of my favorite subjects, not because I am addicted or that I am offended by it, but because it reveals so much about the human mind.

I have noticed that when something is forbidden and hidden behind a veil of secrecy it invokes an overpowering urge in humans to pull back the curtain and enjoy the forbidden fruit.

Before the joyous days of liberation from the church I feared porn. It just seemed too difficult to withstand its temptation. It was wrong and so evil but it was just too powerful to resist. So on occasion I would sneak a peek, and revel in the decadence. I felt guilty afterwards and cursed myself and Satan for my sinning ways.

After leaving the church I could watch all the porn I wanted relatively guilt free. (It’s hard just to give up old guilt patterns instantly) The result? I really had no appetite for it. Sure on occasion I might find it interesting, but overall, it just seemed silly. Now I still enjoy well done erotica, but the stuff that I used to find so tempting is of little interest.

In examining my change in ideas regarding porn I have realized that when it was forbidden it was not a rational exclusion. By not making sense it inspired my curiosity, and my curiosity combined with the emotions of guilt and sexual desire made it too toxic a mix for my Mormon values to resist.

Like so much of the “guilt” “sin” issues I have flung open the door of the closet, shone the light of inquiry on them and have found them to be lacking in substance. They are mostly illusions.

I feel sorry for the kids in the New Era article. I hope they someday have a healthy view of sex. I hope they can see porn in a perspective that allows them to see it outside the parameters of religion, sin, and god. Maybe then they can learn to let it go and get over it.

[free thinker]

So most of it is "as erotic as an old boot"? Thats little consolation to some of my (non-mo) girlfriends whose husbands can't/won't give it up jerking off to porn though it makes their wives feel like shit - (and simultaneously makes them feel guilty for not being more "open minded.")

My experience has been different. I mentioned to my last girlfreind that I liked some porn and she did not even blink. It was like I told her I shaved once a day. In fact she would do almost anything to turn me on. Pretty much whatever I asked. Of course I am pretty provencial so she knew she would not have much to fear.

Not all women have negative fallout from their men enjoying pornography. Some like to enjoy it with the men they love.

So firefly although I respect you and value your thoughts, my experience has been completely different.

Thank you for brining to my attention the issue with Turkish men. If I offended, you have my sincere apology. I got my information from a National Geographic documentary that was filmed in Turkey. So you can see the connection.

I hate ignorance and therefore am very grateful to you and Zilla for pointing this out to me. I will examine an issue more closely before I make such a statement as I made. I was reacting visceraly. :( Thanks firefly and zilla.

ft

[helemon]

So most of it is "as erotic as an old boot"? Thats little consolation to some of my (non-mo) girlfriends whose husbands can't/won't give it up jerking off to porn though it makes their wives feel like shit - (and simultaneously makes them feel guilty for not being more "open minded.")

Do your women friends read romance novels? Would they give them up for their hubbies because he will never become the rich country gentleman, the jet setting entrepenuer with a flair for romance, or the handsome cowboy who sweeps women off their feet? How can the average man ever hope to live up to the standard of the guys portrayed in romance novels? Men are biologically programmed to respond to visual stimulus of women who appear young fit and fertile. Women seem to be programmed to respond to men who are wealthy, powerful, or physically strong in appearance (speaking in general terms here ladies). Womens brains are also more verbal while mens brains are more spatial. What would turn a woman on is a long heartfelt expression of love by their man where he recounts her beauty and virtues and how he can not live with out her.

For the past couple months I have been working in a different state during the week and driving home on the weekends. I will admit that I have "jerked off to porn" while away during the week. It would be fairly easy for me to cheat in such a situation. But you know what? Once I have jerked off my libido is significantly reduced for the rest of the day. Also, if I refrain from this activity, when I do have sex with my wife the final event is accelerated significantly. Most women complain that their hubbies finish too quickly. Let them wack off every day or have sex with them every day and their ability to stick around with increase significantly. Besides, since men canot have multiple orgasms at one time it is only fair to let them have them on a daily basis by themselves when the wife is not wanting to participate.

If these women try to shame their husbands sexual behaviors it will only cause them to be more afraid to share their sexual fantasies and feelings with their wife or express themselves sexually with her. Instead these women should talk with their husbands in an open manner about the topic and try to understand how their sexual natures differ and are similar.

[free thinker]

Do your women friends read romance novels? Would they give them up for their hubbies because he will never become the rich country gentleman, the jet setting entrepenuer with a flair for romance, or the handsome cowboy who sweeps women off their feet? How can the average man ever hope to live up to the standard of the guys portrayed in romance novels? Men are biologically programmed to respond to visual stimulus of women who appear young fit and fertile. Women seem to be programmed to respond to men who are wealthy, powerful, or physically strong in appearance (speaking in general terms here ladies). Womens brains are also more verbal while mens brains are more spatial. What would turn a woman on is a long heartfelt expression of love by their man where he recounts her beauty and virtues and how he can not live with out her.


Before I left the church I was dating a girl that is total TBM. And I mean total. Believe it. I asked her what women like since most do not look at porn. She responded just as you mentioned. Steamy novels. It was a revelation to me and I think it has some truth. Ladies?

ft

[firefly]

The typical scenario that I hear over and over again usually goes like this: she is pregnant/nursing/otherwise in the thick of raising young children, desperately in need of support and reassurance that she is still attractive in spite of dramatic body changes. She knows he is masturbating to online porn. She asks him not too. He says he won't. But he continues to. She feels betrayed, sad, confused. So her question becomes "does he have more of a commitment to porn than he does to honoring the request of his lover/life partner/mother of his children?" and if so, is it because her distate for porn means she is just neurotic/prude/close-minded? Is it just because "that's how men are?" Is it because she is in denial about how attractive she actually is to him?"

I hear this over and over again from women in their 20s and 30s. To a lot of women, (not all, of course) it feels like infidelity.

Let me be clear: I'm not saying "down with porn" - there is some (but very little) that I personally quite like, and if my husband has a taste for it, he's smart enough to keep it to himself. What we have in real life is pretty good, and I'll just leave it at that. I'm just saying it bugs me that the prevailing attitude seems to be that if I woman has a problem with it, it's because SHE has a problem.

[lunaverse]

desperately in need of support and reassurance that she is still attractive in spite of dramatic body changes. She knows he is masturbating to online porn. She asks him not too. He says he won't. But he continues to. She feels betrayed, sad, confused. So her question becomes "does he have more of a commitment to porn than he does to honoring the request of his lover/life partner/mother of his children?" and if so, is it because her distate for porn means she is just neurotic/prude/close-minded?

I hate to sound harsh, but if she is depending on him for her self-esteem, she would be much happier if she learned to rely on her own inner-sense of worth rather than be entirely dependent upon others for this type of energy.

And if he is unwilling to listen to her needs, and try to find ways to accommidate and compromise and work things out (with her reciprocating the efforts), then he has bigger problems that porn did not cause...

A woman who is confident in her own sexuality, beauty, intelligence, and overall worth, tends to not have a problem with their men viewing porn. It is not an insult to her own idea of self. It doesn't cut like a knife, because in her mind, the porn has absolutely nothing to do with her. It can't send a message of, "You're not good enough", because she already believes she is superb.

As long as her own sexual needs are being met, and other aspects of the relationship are healthy, she feels that nothing is being taken away from her. The fact that the man has additional sexual needs does not *cause* insecurity in the woman when there were not existing insecurities already.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not trying to "blame the victim". What I'm suggesting is that the events of this scenerio are symptoms of deeper issues, and such women would be better served looking at the root cause of those issues and trying to find a lasting solution that will leave them happier in the long run. Getting rid of the porn is just a band-aid, when the real cancer still festers.

I've experienced both sides of the self-esteem coin. When those insecurities are active, it is very easy to be offended by the smallest things and to take everything personally. When your root base is confidence, it is difficult to be offended even by things that are intended to be insulting.

Luna

[flotsam]

As usual, the Sugar Beet is right on top of these controversial issues, providing sentistive and timely insights for the modern Mormon.


Man’s addiction to wife destroying relationship with porn

AUSTIN, TX – After years of commitment and fidelity, Austin resident Jesse Bingham is watching his relationship with porn being torn apart by his raging addiction to his wife.

“I never thought it would happen to me,” said Bingham, sitting in an apartment rife with the telltale signs of wife addiction: photographs, love letters, gifts. “My relationship with my porn was a deep one. I only had eyes for the girls in the magazines , the videos or on the Internet, but then, one day…” He trailed off.

According to sources close to Bingham, his descent into wife addiction started innocently enough.

“He just went to a dance,” said Torvald Hampton, a college buddy, “It wasn’t like he was pursuing an addiction to a real live woman. He was just curious. But once he had a taste, he just couldn’t keep away.”

Hampton went on to recount numerous nights spent watching porn videos alone in his apartment, his once faithful friend out feeding the bottomless pit of his new addiction.

“Man, sometimes he just went too far, bringing Nancy right into the apartment here. I mean, what was I supposed to do? He’d sit there on the couch, the very couch where we first watched Bilious Lesbian Circus Vendors, and put HIS ARM AROUND HER WAIST!”

Bingham’s psychologist, with permission from Bingham, said he showed all the signs of a deepening spouse addiction. “He spent all his money on her. He neglected his magazines; missed his weekly visits to the Hentai Hut of Hooters; and started getting up in the middle of the night to write emails to his ‘beloved.’ I tell you, it’s a classic case.”

More disturbing still are accounts from Bingham’s family that he actually started showing signs of caring about the woman that would, one dark day, become his wife.

“He took care of her for a whole week while she was sick. Took leave from work and everything. She threw up on him, which should have given him a clue. But no. Jesse was too far gone by then,” said Sara Bingham, Jesse’s younger sister. “What kind of example is he setting for me here?”

Bingham admits that he is completely enveloped by his addiction to his wife. “I think about her constantly. I go home to her every chance I get. I’ve barely seen my porn since my wife addiction started. And when I do … I don’t know, the trust just isn’t there anymore, you know? But the fact is, my wife has set the standard too high. I have unrealistic expectations for my porn now, and it just can’t live up to those.”

Bingham swears he has tried to go back to his porn, “but I just expect all these perverse things like warmth, flirtation, care, and an actual female body that my porn just cannot put out.”

Bingham and his porn are trying a trial separation to see if they can work out their differences. His porn has gone to Hampton’s apartment for the duration of the separation.

[Born Free]

Do your women friends read romance novels? Would they give them up for their hubbies because he will never become the rich country gentleman, the jet setting entrepenuer with a flair for romance, or the handsome cowboy who sweeps women off their feet? How can the average man ever hope to live up to the standard of the guys portrayed in romance novels? Men are biologically programmed to respond to visual stimulus of women who appear young fit and fertile. Women seem to be programmed to respond to men who are wealthy, powerful, or physically strong in appearance (speaking in general terms here ladies). Womens brains are also more verbal while mens brains are more spatial. What would turn a woman on is a long heartfelt expression of love by their man where he recounts her beauty and virtues and how he can not live with out her.


Before I left the church I was dating a girl that is total TBM. And I mean total. Believe it. I asked her what women like since most do not look at porn. She responded just as you mentioned. Steamy novels. It was a revelation to me and I think it has some truth. Ladies?

ft

Warren Farrell argues (convincingly IMO) in several of his books, that the romance novel is the direct female equivalent of male porno. Both reduce the other gender to a simplistic version of their gender preference.

Do we hear MoInc leaders speak out against romance novels?

Daryl

[Born Free]

The typical scenario that I hear over and over again usually goes like this: she is pregnant/nursing/otherwise in the thick of raising young children, desperately in need of support and reassurance that she is still attractive in spite of dramatic body changes. She knows he is masturbating to online porn. She asks him not too. He says he won't. But he continues to. She feels betrayed, sad, confused. So her question becomes "does he have more of a commitment to porn than he does to honoring the request of his lover/life partner/mother of his children?" and if so, is it because her distate for porn means she is just neurotic/prude/close-minded? Is it just because "that's how men are?" Is it because she is in denial about how attractive she actually is to him?"

I hear this over and over again from women in their 20s and 30s. To a lot of women, (not all, of course) it feels like infidelity.

Let me be clear: I'm not saying "down with porn" - there is some (but very little) that I personally quite like, and if my husband has a taste for it, he's smart enough to keep it to himself. What we have in real life is pretty good, and I'll just leave it at that. I'm just saying it bugs me that the prevailing attitude seems to be that if I woman has a problem with it, it's because SHE has a problem.
Firefly,

The older I get, the more cautious I am around issues that are postulated as either/or; in this case, either men have a problem, or women do.

My considered, studied and experienced opinion is that it is usually both, that both stand to benefit and gain insight into where the other is coming from.

To provide another layer of insight into the male experience, which is rarely aired, research shows that many women experience breastfeeding as an erotic experience, some even experience orgasm. Oxytocin appears to play a major role in this process. A friend pointed me at some studies that showed that young mothers frequently get a major chunck of their touch needs met with their children and have little to none left for the men in their lives.

Many men experience that as devastating (OK, 'I' Staement time - I did). Sure there is a major element of immaturity in many men, during this stage (and I am ashamed to admit I was one, in part due to marrying way too young because of Mormon influences), but I am not sure many woman try to empathise with the mans experience.

Now that said, I am sure as a young father I was appaulingly insensative to the experience of my wife, and how draining her role was.

When I look at all the above, as usual, I conclude we all stand to benefit greatly by getting better at listening to, and empathising with each other, and growing in our ability to appreciate that gender differences do massively alter our total experience in some areas. (Try as I might, there are some limits to my capacity to relate to a partners ability to have 20 orgasms! :eek: :duh )

Daryl

[firefly]

I hate to sound harsh, but if she is depending on him for her self-esteem, she would be much happier if she learned to rely on her own inner-sense of worth rather than be entirely dependent upon others for this type of energy.

And if he is unwilling to listen to her needs, and try to find ways to accommidate and compromise and work things out (with her reciprocating the efforts), then he has bigger problems that porn did not cause...

A woman who is confident in her own sexuality, beauty, intelligence, and overall worth, tends to not have a problem with their men viewing porn. It is not an insult to her own idea of self. It doesn't cut like a knife, because in her mind, the porn has absolutely nothing to do with her. It can't send a message of, "You're not good enough", because she already believes she is superb.

As long as her own sexual needs are being met, and other aspects of the relationship are healthy, she feels that nothing is being taken away from her. The fact that the man has additional sexual needs does not *cause* insecurity in the woman when there were not existing insecurities already.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not trying to "blame the victim". What I'm suggesting is that the events of this scenerio are symptoms of deeper issues, and such women would be better served looking at the root cause of those issues and trying to find a lasting solution that will leave them happier in the long run. Getting rid of the porn is just a band-aid, when the real cancer still festers.

I've experienced both sides of the self-esteem coin. When those insecurities are active, it is very easy to be offended by the smallest things and to take everything personally. When your root base is confidence, it is difficult to be offended even by things that are intended to be insulting.

Luna

Not trying to be argumentative really, this is very interesting.

And of course, there's nothing harsh about the notion that we're all the boss of our own self esteem, but in the give and take of a relationship, the actions of each party matter.

What if he was getting off with another woman in real time, so to speak. Phone sex? Sexual online chats? Intercourse with another women - just to satisfy physical need...nothing emotional, ya know, men just have needs. NO I'm not saying that a partner having a "relationship" with porn is the same as having an affair, but it can feel pretty close to it.

I think that in the context of a marriage where the understand is monogamy, a partner that is directing his or her sexual energy toward another person to the point of orgasm - without the consent or involvement or approval of the other partner - is messing with the boundaries and energy of the relationship in an unfair way.

And I've been meaning to clarify- the main reason I jumped into this discussion is that, like I said, I have a number of friends (real life and the long-time online private-forum type of woman friends who share all ;) ) who are really struggling with this in their marriages, marriages to reasonable guys who say they respect their wives' dislike of porn...but can't leave the stuff alone...then turn the blame on her. So I jump over here, and read an article about a young woman saying she doesn't like the fact that men in her life are so into porn...and the responses are all "get over it, frigid religious freaks."

Ok - thats an exaggeration, but there is something that doesn't sit well with me about the dismissal of the idea that in some contexts, porn itself (not just stress, depression, low self esteem, repression) can cause some grief.

just my humble opinion,
firefly

[firefly]

Firefly,

The older I get, the more cautious I am around issues that are postulated as either/or; in this case, either men have a problem, or women do.


Daryl

I agree wholeheartedly. The male/female setup was only specific to those stories I was talking about. In my other post (we cross-posted) I open it up to general principles of respect in relationship for both genders.

But honestly, since we are talking specifically about porn, do you know very many men who despair at the role that porn plays in the life of their female partners? Not saying there aren't any...just asking.

[helemon]

I read a sobering statistic in Scientific American. It stated that in the Industrialized world including the former Soviet Union half of the people who are entrapped into human slavery are forced into the sex trade. The number was over 30,000 people who are enslaved in this manner. This is my biggest problem with porn. The consumer doesn't know whether the people in the pictures participated willingly. This is one reason I suppose to only purchase adult material from establish companies like Playboy.

[helemon]

Before I left the church I was dating a girl that is total TBM. And I mean total. Believe it. I asked her what women like since most do not look at porn. She responded just as you mentioned. Steamy novels. It was a revelation to me and I think it has some truth. Ladies?

ft

I think there was even an Ensign article were a woman realized that her steamy romance novels were just as bad as her hubby looking at porn. I know my wife enjoys reading the romance novels. They tend not to be the harlequin or real sleazy type though.

But still how is the average man supposed to measure up to the deified image of JS? Or Nephi? Or Captain Moroni and his Stripling Warriors?

[helemon]

The typical scenario that I hear over and over again usually goes like this: she is pregnant/nursing/otherwise in the thick of raising young children, desperately in need of support and reassurance that she is still attractive in spite of dramatic body changes.

I have also heard over and over that during these periods there is a dramatic reduction in the women sex drive during these periods that is not due to how their husband is treating them but hormonal chaos and pure exhaustion.

Also, as Luna has suggested, men do not like being forced to tell women they are sexy. Women who know they are sexy and act sexy will be perceived as sexy by their mate. It's like the old "Do I look fat in this question" men have been conditioned by women not to answer their questions honestly.

[helemon]

To provide another layer of insight into the male experience, which is rarely aired, research shows that many women experience breastfeeding as an erotic experience, some even experience orgasm. Oxytocin appears to play a major role in this process. A friend pointed me at some studies that showed that young mothers frequently get a major chunck of their touch needs met with their children and have little to none left for the men in their lives.


I second your statements here Daryl. My wife said to me on several occasions during the breastfeeding phase that her need for cuddling, and snuggling were being met from breastfeeding and caring for the infant, leaving little desire to receive such activity from me. Even now she continues to encourage the kids to sleep on our floor which further cuts into what little time we have available for intimacy.

We spaced our kids 3 yrs apart, so right after one kid was weaned she became pregnant again and the cycle repeats. Given how the church places such a high emphasis on large families, not using contraception, not masturbating, it is easy to see how the man could become caught in a situation where he feels his wife has little time or love for him, while feeling guilty for his natural sexual urges which he must struggle to supress.

Perhaps Firefly's friends need to look at how their behaviors might be contributing to the problem she describes rather than blaming it all on the evils of porn or insensitive males.

[firefly]

Perhaps Firefly's friends need to look at how their behaviors might be contributing to the problem she describes rather than blaming it all on the evils of porn or insensitive males.

Did I ever say porn was evil? Problematic is not the same as evil. My point is only that it can be a very ackward presence in a marriage, and many men would do well to try to use more empathy in understanding why a woman might be uncomfortable with it than to spend so much energy defending it.

[free thinker]

Bingham swears he has tried to go back to his porn, “but I just expect all these perverse things like warmth, flirtation, care, and an actual female body that my porn just cannot put out.”


Nothing in this world, in my opinion, comes close to the feeling of being held and loved by a woman who truly cares about you. Nothing comes close!! ;)


ft

[helemon]

Did I ever say porn was evil? Problematic is not the same as evil.


Did I say you said porn was evil? I said your friends sound like they have this opinion.


My point is only that it can be a very ackward presence in a marriage, and many men would do well to try to use more empathy in understanding why a woman might be uncomfortable with it than to spend so much energy defending it.

And women can try to use more empathy in understanding why men can be uncomfortable watching chick flicks. ;)

[flotsam]

Here's something interesting.


Who’s It Hurting?
Name Withheld

My sisters and I did everything together growing up. We journeyed together from training wheels to driver education class. They would dance with me when no one else would, and would stay up late at night giving me advice about girls I liked. They’ve always been my best friends. And I’ve always tried to protect them, just as any good brother should.

I worked hard trying to be the kind of guy a girl would want. I stayed healthy, I fulfilled my church callings, I did well in school, and I tried to cultivate authentic relationships with girls. But one day I became aware of something that poisons the kind of relationship I’m looking for.

I first became aware of it with a friend of mine. She and I grew up together from Primary lessons to high school dances. We cared about each other, and I was excited to see her get ready to go on a mission; she had a spirit of faith and dedication. But a few days before she left, I found her reading a paperback with the title, “Mountain Appassionata.” It had a woman on the front cover falling into the arms of a muscled man.

“What are you reading?” I asked.

“Oh, this?” she giggled, “It’s just a little pastime of mine. I’ve been reading romances since I was 11.”

Intrigued, I picked one up a few weeks later. The title, “Passion on the Plains.”

I started out innocently enough. A prairie woman down on her luck starts working as a maid for a recently widowed doctor. He finds out that she’s interested in medicine and helps her get into med school. But things don’t go well for her there, try as she might. The dean is against her, her classmates envy her intelligence and sabotage her school work. But at the last moment, just as she is about to be expelled, the doctor comes in and speaks in her behalf. They expel her anyway and he whisks her home. There, he begins teaching her, but in the meantime, they fall in love. At the end of the book, they get married. And in her last speech, Doris (the heroine) says, “Oh, Richard. I never could have fallen for anyone but you. You’re so strong. So masculine. Yet so sensitive and romantic. You are never without a flower for me, or a romantic evening for two. You provide for us opulently. I never have to worry about the credit card limit. And all our friends and colleagues look up to you, because you are the best in your field. Look at your strong square jaw that accentuates your deep, passionate eyes. Yes, Richard, you have everything. Everything a woman could want. Hold me, Richard.”

I was surprised. Was this what my friend wanted in a man? I certainly couldn’t provide that. I was interested in computers, but I couldn’t see myself starting up a company and getting rich off it. Then I looked at my face and my physique. Richard had me outclassed there too. I think I could be romantic, but Richard had set some pretty high standards. And I wasn’t sure I could meet them.

But I thought that maybe it was just one case. Just one girl with such standards. I found out differently in college.

I had been dating a wonderful girl and had proposed to her. Taking Richard’s advice, I brought her a flower every day, and spent all my money on romantic nights out. After all, I was in love. The night I proposed, she said the answer would have to wait for a few days because someone else had asked her out, and she couldn’t go back on her promise.

The next day, she gave me the ring back. “Sorry,” she said, “I’ve found someone else.”

I saw that someone else holding her hand on campus and recognized him. A senior in the law program with a fellowship starting at Harvard.

After a period of heartbreak, I found someone else I thought I could share my life with. But she was whisked away from me as well. I searched the guy down and was surprised to find that he was in the education program. I had him beat there. But then I thought about his last name. I’ll give you a hint, you see it at the bottom of the screen at every General Conference – at least twice.

In a flash it all came together for me. I scoured my sisters’ rooms and found evidence of it everywhere. These women had fallen under the pernicious influence of romance novels. But worse still – biographies of general authorities.

I wept that day, and for many days to come. Where could I find a girl who had kept her mind unsullied from the evils of these seemingly innocuous books? Was there a girl anywhere who wouldn’t be comparing my earning power, prestige potential and general authority opportunities with some guy in a book?

Though I searched, I could find no girl who had kept her mind pure. Not even my mother, whom I had held up as a paragon of all that is good in a woman. She too partook in the evil gift. As had her mother, and her mother before her.

I became convinced that I would never truly be loved. And that even if I managed to find a good Mormon girl, she would always be fantasizing about the Elder Richards in the world.

Indeed, one day I heard a conversation among some Mormon women whose husbands were inactive. They talked longingly of the day they would be able to leave their earthly husbands behind and be given a strong priesthood bearer in the Celestial Kingdom.

I felt like a used tissue.

Understanding what romances and GA biographies do to my sisters and to me only strengthens my resolve to do everything I can to help them stay strong. Like confiscating those awful books from their rooms, discouraging them from watching General Conference and BYU devotionals, and letting them know how I feel when they talk about men in inappropriate ways.

Satan wants my sisters and mother to believe that romances and GA biographies won’t hurt anyone. Satan also wants to convince me that I can never trust anyone and that I will never be truly loved.

Satan is a liar.

I finally found someone who will accept me as I am. She has confessed to me that she has read a romance novel before, but didn’t like it. She has never touched a biography of a GA. She’s never even seen a GA. She doesn’t even know what a GA is.

That’s right. My wife is not a Mormon. Thank you, God, for answering my prayers.

[free thinker]

Here's something interesting.


Quote:
Who’s It Hurting?
Name Withheld

My sisters and I did everything together growing up. We journeyed together from training wheels to driver education class. They would dance with me when no one else would, and would stay up late at night giving me advice about girls I liked. They’ve always been my best friends. And I’ve always tried to protect them, just as any good brother should.

I worked hard trying to be the kind of guy a girl would want. I stayed healthy, I fulfilled my church callings, I did well in school, and I tried to cultivate authentic relationships with girls. But one day I became aware of something that poisons the kind of relationship I’m looking for.

I first became aware of it with a friend of mine. She and I grew up together from Primary lessons to high school dances. We cared about each other, and I was excited to see her get ready to go on a mission; she had a spirit of faith and dedication. But a few days before she left, I found her reading a paperback with the title, “Mountain Appassionata.” It had a woman on the front cover falling into the arms of a muscled man.

“What are you reading?” I asked.

“Oh, this?” she giggled, “It’s just a little pastime of mine. I’ve been reading romances since I was 11.”

Intrigued, I picked one up a few weeks later. The title, “Passion on the Plains.”

I started out innocently enough. A prairie woman down on her luck starts working as a maid for a recently widowed doctor. He finds out that she’s interested in medicine and helps her get into med school. But things don’t go well for her there, try as she might. The dean is against her, her classmates envy her intelligence and sabotage her school work. But at the last moment, just as she is about to be expelled, the doctor comes in and speaks in her behalf. They expel her anyway and he whisks her home. There, he begins teaching her, but in the meantime, they fall in love. At the end of the book, they get married. And in her last speech, Doris (the heroine) says, “Oh, Richard. I never could have fallen for anyone but you. You’re so strong. So masculine. Yet so sensitive and romantic. You are never without a flower for me, or a romantic evening for two. You provide for us opulently. I never have to worry about the credit card limit. And all our friends and colleagues look up to you, because you are the best in your field. Look at your strong square jaw that accentuates your deep, passionate eyes. Yes, Richard, you have everything. Everything a woman could want. Hold me, Richard.”

I was surprised. Was this what my friend wanted in a man? I certainly couldn’t provide that. I was interested in computers, but I couldn’t see myself starting up a company and getting rich off it. Then I looked at my face and my physique. Richard had me outclassed there too. I think I could be romantic, but Richard had set some pretty high standards. And I wasn’t sure I could meet them.

But I thought that maybe it was just one case. Just one girl with such standards. I found out differently in college.

I had been dating a wonderful girl and had proposed to her. Taking Richard’s advice, I brought her a flower every day, and spent all my money on romantic nights out. After all, I was in love. The night I proposed, she said the answer would have to wait for a few days because someone else had asked her out, and she couldn’t go back on her promise.

The next day, she gave me the ring back. “Sorry,” she said, “I’ve found someone else.”

I saw that someone else holding her hand on campus and recognized him. A senior in the law program with a fellowship starting at Harvard.

After a period of heartbreak, I found someone else I thought I could share my life with. But she was whisked away from me as well. I searched the guy down and was surprised to find that he was in the education program. I had him beat there. But then I thought about his last name. I’ll give you a hint, you see it at the bottom of the screen at every General Conference – at least twice.

In a flash it all came together for me. I scoured my sisters’ rooms and found evidence of it everywhere. These women had fallen under the pernicious influence of romance novels. But worse still – biographies of general authorities.

I wept that day, and for many days to come. Where could I find a girl who had kept her mind unsullied from the evils of these seemingly innocuous books? Was there a girl anywhere who wouldn’t be comparing my earning power, prestige potential and general authority opportunities with some guy in a book?

Though I searched, I could find no girl who had kept her mind pure. Not even my mother, whom I had held up as a paragon of all that is good in a woman. She too partook in the evil gift. As had her mother, and her mother before her.

I became convinced that I would never truly be loved. And that even if I managed to find a good Mormon girl, she would always be fantasizing about the Elder Richards in the world.

Indeed, one day I heard a conversation among some Mormon women whose husbands were inactive. They talked longingly of the day they would be able to leave their earthly husbands behind and be given a strong priesthood bearer in the Celestial Kingdom.

I felt like a used tissue.

Understanding what romances and GA biographies do to my sisters and to me only strengthens my resolve to do everything I can to help them stay strong. Like confiscating those awful books from their rooms, discouraging them from watching General Conference and BYU devotionals, and letting them know how I feel when they talk about men in inappropriate ways.

Satan wants my sisters and mother to believe that romances and GA biographies won’t hurt anyone. Satan also wants to convince me that I can never trust anyone and that I will never be truly loved.

Satan is a liar.

I finally found someone who will accept me as I am. She has confessed to me that she has read a romance novel before, but didn’t like it. She has never touched a biography of a GA. She’s never even seen a GA. She doesn’t even know what a GA is.

That’s right. My wife is not a Mormon. Thank you, God, for answering my prayers.


Absolutely brilliant!!! Bravo!!! Bravo!!! Bravo!!!!!

Perfect.

ft

[puff]

The typical scenario that I hear over and over again usually goes like this: she is pregnant/nursing/otherwise in the thick of raising young children, desperately in need of support and reassurance that she is still attractive in spite of dramatic body changes. She knows he is masturbating to online porn. She asks him not too. He says he won't. But he continues to. She feels betrayed, sad, confused. So her question becomes "does he have more of a commitment to porn than he does to honoring the request of his lover/life partner/mother of his children?" and if so, is it because her distate for porn means she is just neurotic/prude/close-minded? Is it just because "that's how men are?" Is it because she is in denial about how attractive she actually is to him?"

I hear this over and over again from women in their 20s and 30s. To a lot of women, (not all, of course) it feels like infidelity.

Let me be clear: I'm not saying "down with porn" - there is some (but very little) that I personally quite like, and if my husband has a taste for it, he's smart enough to keep it to himself. What we have in real life is pretty good, and I'll just leave it at that. I'm just saying it bugs me that the prevailing attitude seems to be that if I woman has a problem with it, it's because SHE has a problem.
so whats wrong with husband and wife watching together , we have done this a few times over the years and its helpful in keeping the sex life alive , funny thing is she enjoys it more than i do , i actually find most of it a bit boring , thats the problem with sex , its not that interlectually stimulating ,in some cases watching porn is a good way to get rid of unwanted sexual desires , a complete turn off , but if you did have a problem , shame and guilt would not cure it in most cases

[Born Free]

"“Who’s It Hurting?” New Era, Jan. 2006, 34

My brothers and I did everything together growing up. We journeyed together from training wheels to driver education class. They asked me to dance when no one else would and stayed up late getting my advice about the girls they liked. They’ve always been my best friends and protectors. I want to marry someone who loves and respects me the way my brothers do.

But there’s something that poisons the kind of relationship I’m looking for. I first became aware of it with a close friend of mine. He and I grew up together from Primary lessons to high school dances and cared about each other deeply. I was excited to see him get ready to serve a mission. Then one day he had a look on his face that made me think he was going to announce he had a terminal illness. He blurted out he would have to delay his mission because of morality problems he’d had that started with pornography. I felt so bad for him. I still cared about him and all the memories I had with him, but the blow was a difficult one for me to handle."

The words I have highlighted hold interest for me, and I argue shout of the mindset in evidence here.

"They’ve always been my best friends and protectors" This implies that females need male protectors (from what?)

"I want to marry someone who loves and respects me the way my brothers do" When added to the prior sentence (where she stated protection as a key need, we are to assume that protection is a key service/requirement provided by the ideal suitor).

Now most human relationships function around some form of reciprocity, so what is the package here?

She appears to work out of a model of women are weak and/or desirable and are in need of protection from ...... what? Other men, other women, the world around us, reality? Satan? What is the boogey-man here?

In the next paragraph she states "But there’s something that poisons the kind of relationship I’m looking for." i.e. a 'loving, respectful, protective' relationship. Further on "He blurted out he would have to delay his mission because of morality problems he’d had that started with pornography. I felt so bad for him. I still cared about him and all the memories I had with him, but the blow was a difficult one for me to handle."

Now, what is clearly a problem out there for other people (brothers and friends) has been taken on board in a way that my experience very strongly suggests she does not have a clear sense of where the other person stops, and where she starts. This is generally regarded as one of the elements of the difference between empathy and sympathy.

And why might she be so prone to getting caught up in their issues? I would suggest because they are very close to hers.

What is it that women traditionally offer in response for men taking on the role of provider/protector? They offer submission, affection and support, with sexuality sitting at or near the centre of the 'package' offered as the lure. In this model, women possess something men do not, and men can only access that by paying the requisite price. Access to THAT purse comes at a price! :eek:

Now, where does porn sit in that deal? It quickly is evident that it threatens to destroy the package, the deal. Men appear to get sex (or some facimile of it) at the price of the magazine, tape, DVD or internet connection/subscription.

How do women still captive to that old paradigm feel about this threat? On the evidence in this article, she is sickened and scared paralysed.

"I could tell that my little brother felt horrible, but I wanted him to know how pornography made me feel. I told him how hurt and how afraid I felt because of pornography and the power it had over those I cared about. He listened intently and said he hadn’t realized how awful it made girls feel. He apologized for hurting me."

Oops, another boundary just stumbled across!

So I am proposing that this article supplies ample evidence that when sex is loosed outside its traditional constraints/package, then traditionalists get panicky.

Futher, they are rendered easy to panic through having poor interpersonal boundaries.

Is that the cause of the problem?

Oh, how much easier this would be if this were simply a one way deal. But, alas, anxiety about sexuality is BOTH a cause and and effect of Mormonisms erratic thinking and training around sexuality. This women claims huge anxiety about porn consumed by others (which magically reaches out to wound her), and she goes to great lengths to add to the guilt/confusion that they already feel.

Now, as an aside, I find the level of discussion this young lady, her brothers and best friends have about porn quite curious. Their level of discussion about these issues surpasses anyone I ever knew from my days within Moism. No one ever 'fessed up to this problem, certainly not outside a worthiness interview and frequently not even there. This begs the question for me "How seriously should I take this bleeding-heart' story about all this pornphobia?" Did it lack cred for others too?

Further on "Understanding what pornography does to my brothers and to me only strengthens their resolve to stay away from it. And now that I’m more aware of what boys are facing, I do everything I can to help them stay strong, like trying to dress modestly, choosing not to watch inappropriate movies or TV shows, and letting them know how I feel when they talk about women in inappropriate ways."

Here we go again. Got the subtext? Men are weak, sex-driven, slobbering morons, who upon getting a glimpse of 1 inch of cleavage, will be reduced to salivating, erection-cursed, would-be-masturbating morons! :rolleyes: Further, consistent with our established theme of boundary-violations, women are now held largely responsible for men's sexuality (echoes of the Garden of Eden?).

Writers like Warren Farrell in text and workshops illustrate how this traditional gender-role mindset is part of a 'rape-training' package, where the alpha males get the most attractive females and everyone else gets crumbs of ever declining quality. That very process is what encourages men to become resistive to relating to women as human beings, and to see them as trophies to be scored, then owned, but never related to. Oo the reverse, the men who are seen as the most attractive (alpha males) are near universally the most difficult to have an intimate relationship with, because the core competencies of each function are diametrically opposed.

Daryl

PS: I would add to this blurt that central to this line of reasonsing is that when sexuality is part of a powerplay in the relationship, then there will always persist a problematic relationship between sexuality and intimacy. Powerplays preclude intimacy. For a woman to show she wants and needs sex as much as her spouse would lower the price; reduce her power over him. If she offered out of mutual desire, and as an open exchange, her love, affection and sexuality, then its power as a lever of control would be diminished. That would not do, in the vulnerability of the traditional feminine role.

That is the Catch 22 in the old gender roles, that I see as implicit in the case she presents.

[helemon]

Thanks Daryl!

[flotsam]

Great analysis. That's going in the best of page.

[firefly]

so whats wrong with husband and wife watching together , we have done this a few times over the years and its helpful in keeping the sex life alive , funny thing is she enjoys it more than i do , i actually find most of it a bit boring , thats the problem with sex , its not that interlectually stimulating ,in some cases watching porn is a good way to get rid of unwanted sexual desires , a complete turn off , but if you did have a problem , shame and guilt would not cure it in most cases

Absolutely nothing is wrong with watching porn together, if both parties are into it. I'm baffled that you got that from my post.

[Born Free]

Absolutely nothing is wrong with watching porn together, if both parties are into it. I'm baffled that you got that from my post.
Firefly,

From my experience, I am convinced many men have problems with sex, because they have problems with intimacy. Sex, which is an intimate act, becomes damaging to all involved, when conducted without intimacy. Men who are afraid of, or even incapable of intimacy, frequently become addicted to sex, as one of few activities that can alleviate the numbness of an intimacy-free existence.

Sadly, many report that intimacy-deviod sex frequently adds to their core disquiet and self-loathing after the flush of post-orgasmic endorphins is gone.

All that said, I frequently observe a complimentary set of baggage for women. Have you any insights.

See, for my money, with the guys, the porn is not THE issue, just a distraction. Intimacy, or the lack there of, is the REAL issue.

What insights do you have into the womens issues? I suspect strongly that the porn is not the (real) issue, just as men's opposing (pro-porn) attitude is not the real issue. So, if I am right, endlessly kicking around the "Is porn OK or evil?" ball, furthers insight not one bit.

Daryl

[free thinker]

What is it that women traditionally offer in response for men taking on the role of provider/protector? They offer submission, affection and support, with sexuality sitting at or near the centre of the 'package' offered as the lure. In this model, women possess something men do not, and men can only access that by paying the requisite price. Access to THAT purse comes at a price!

This has been my experience. But I must add that almost all the women I have dated for the past 15 years have been mormon.

I found that when women play this role it can create residual anger in them. Especially if they are intelligent and strong. If asked to play this role in the church, they do it, but I sensed many of them were somewhat angry about it. They were being limited.

In one way or another this anger gets manifested. This has been my experience. There is always a price to be paid for submission on anothers part.

ft

[Born Free]

What is it that women traditionally offer in response for men taking on the role of provider/protector? They offer submission, affection and support, with sexuality sitting at or near the centre of the 'package' offered as the lure. In this model, women possess something men do not, and men can only access that by paying the requisite price. Access to THAT purse comes at a price!

This has been my experience. But I must add that almost all the women I have dated for the past 15 years have been mormon.

I found that when women play this role it can create residual anger in them. Especially if they are intelligent and strong. If asked to play this role in the church, they do it, but I sensed many of them were somewhat angry about it. They were being limited.

In one way or another this anger gets manifested. This has been my experience. There is always a price to be paid for submission on anothers part.

ft
FT,

Sad, isn't it?

You wind up with women contributing way less than their full potential, and everyone winds up having a shitty sexual existence.

Ah, the price to be paid for living out of a worn out model!

Daryl

[dogzilla]

Writers like Warren Farrell in text and workshops illustrate how this traditional gender-role mindset is part of a 'rape-training' package, where the alpha males get the most attractive females and everyone else gets crumbs of ever declining quality. That very process is what encourages men to become resistive to relating to women as human beings, and to see them as trophies to be scored, then owned, but never related to. Oo the reverse, the men who are seen as the most attractive (alpha males) are near universally the most difficult to have an intimate relationship with, because the core competencies of each function are diametrically opposed.

Daryl, I love this. Thanks for posting such an insightful analysis. The only thing I can add is this: I sure wish there was a mandatory class or something to teach young men about this (and bigeddy's Theory of Balance) before they do so much damage to themselves and their girlfriends/wives. It would make my dating pool infinitely easier to sift through.

All that said, I frequently observe a complimentary set of baggage for women. Have you any insights.

See, for my money, with the guys, the porn is not THE issue, just a distraction. Intimacy, or the lack there of, is the REAL issue.

What insights do you have into the womens issues? I suspect strongly that the porn is not the (real) issue, just as men's opposing (pro-porn) attitude is not the real issue.

I'd suggest that the women's issues are exactly the same. Many women seem threatened by porn because:

• The fear their male partners are comparing their bodies and/or their performance with the female porn stars. That'll make even the hottest hottie insecure.
• The see porn as destructive to the potential for intimacy. It's all in-out, in-out (I loved "A Clockwork Orange") and no love or caring or consideration for another's needs.
• In my experience, women have a very, very difficult time separating love from sex. Most men have no problem with that at all. Porn represents a loveless act that is the antithesis of what turns most women on, emotionally and mentally. And, as we all know, the brain is the most important sex organ in the body. Took me a long time to realize: there's nothing at all wrong with not being able to separate love from sex.At the same time, there's nothing wrong with a good, hard f**k once in a while, but without the intimacy, you end up on the angry and self-loathing end of things. It's like the Atkins diet: eventually, you're gonna want some vegetables or even some bread now and again.

At Heartless Bitches International (of course I'm a member, why do you ask? ;) ), someone mentioned that she can tell if a guy watches too much porn simply by the way he has sex. After one man sort of put her into certain positions and did certain things with her, she asked him, "do you watch a lot of porn?" He was surprised and shocked that she could tell. It's because a lot of porn is created, written, and directed by men, for men. Many of the positions are for the camera angles, not for anyone's pleasure, least of all for the woman's pleasure.

I noticed how rarely you ever see female orgasms in porn, even faked ones. Ergo, men who watch too much porn never consider that (helping bring the woman to orgasm) as a priority or even something that should be in the repertoire. It's something I actually find quite offensive about porn: why don't the chicks get to get off? Answer: because this is all about the men. And without intimacy, nobody cares about anyone else's needs. There's no compassion or consideration. (I'll throw this one back to the boys: Would you enjoy a porn flick that showed only a woman's multiple orgasms, but never showed the man's money $hot? Why is it that seeing other men get off is the turn on? You'd think that would work the other way around, but I challenge all of you to find porn showing women getting off. And then PM me with the titles. ;) )

I'm reminded of an ex-boyfriend I ended up dumping because he was so terrible in the sack. (After putting up with bad sex for a year and a half, hoping to teach him to be more considerate.) He was a 2-minute wonder and never cared nor considered if I got any enjoyment out of the act at all. After a while, I just couldn't be bothered. Of course, this led to a loud confrontation wherein I pointed out: If you get off in two minutes and I get nowhere at all, what's the point for me? Why get all sticky when I can just get a good night's sleep instead? That would be far more rewarding. He couldn't wrap his little brain around the idea that sex should be for both partners in the relationship, not just for him. I was supposed to just roll over and let him have his two minutes, because it was only two little minutes out of my day. So I left him to pleasure himself and went to find someone who was more interested in how I felt. (And that's how I got accepted into Heartless Bitches, Intl.!) In retrospect, I realize the entire relationship was a reflection of that single dynamic: He didn't care about any of my needs at all.

Porn, for many women, represents that Greatest Fear that he really doesn't care about her at all, and he's just using her as a convenient hole. If a woman likes porn and enjoys it herself, that often comes with guilt because she may worry that her partner will think she's dirty, and bad, and a slut. So women see no way to keep respect in a relationship where porn is involved. I think many of us see how damaging porn can be to both self-respect as well as respect for others. (IF you don't have your head screwed on nice and straight while viewing. Pun intended.)

Seems like my sig is the most fitting end to this post. I think trust, respect, and communication are also key considerations with this issue.

[Born Free]

Daryl, I love this. Thanks for posting such an insightful analysis. The only thing I can add is this: I sure wish there was a mandatory class or something to teach young men about this (and bigeddy's Theory of Balance) before they do so much damage to themselves and their girlfriends/wives. It would make my dating pool infinitely easier to sift through.

<snip>

At Heartless Bitches International (of course I'm a member, why do you ask? ;) ), someone mentioned that she can tell if a guy watches too much porn simply by the way he has sex. After one man sort of put her into certain positions and did certain things with her, she asked him, "do you watch a lot of porn?" He was surprised and shocked that she could tell. It's because a lot of porn is created, written, and directed by men, for men. Many of the positions are for the camera angles, not for anyone's pleasure, least of all for the woman's pleasure.

I noticed how rarely you ever see female orgasms in porn, even faked ones. Ergo, men who watch too much porn never consider that (helping bring the woman to orgasm) as a priority or even something that should be in the repertoire. It's something I actually find quite offensive about porn: why don't the chicks get to get off? Answer: because this is all about the men. And without intimacy, nobody cares about anyone else's needs. There's no compassion or consideration. (I'll throw this one back to the boys: Would you enjoy a porn flick that showed only a woman's multiple orgasms, but never showed the man's money $hot? Why is it that seeing other men get off is the turn on? You'd think that would work the other way around, but I challenge all of you to find porn showing women getting off. And then PM me with the titles. ;) )
<snip>

Porn, for many women, represents that Greatest Fear that he really doesn't care about her at all, and he's just using her as a convenient hole. If a woman likes porn and enjoys it herself, that often comes with guilt because she may worry that her partner will think she's dirty, and bad, and a slut. So women see no way to keep respect in a relationship where porn is involved. I think many of us see how damaging porn can be to both self-respect as well as respect for others. (IF you don't have your head screwed on nice and straight while viewing. Pun intended.)

Seems like my sig is the most fitting end to this post. I think trust, respect, and communication are also key considerations with this issue.

Zilla,

Great post. You skillfully observe that issue of the healthy/unhealthy capacity to separate love/sex. I see many women who feel life gets better after (somewhere in mid-life) they develop the capacity to connect with their inner raunch. I am sure that is one element that is a female equivalent of men connecting with their tenderness.

As for erotica/porn with females having a good time, I regret that I too am waiting for those titles. As a male who never tires of females capacity to sexual pleasure, I can't begin to relate to guys who enter that space totally selfishly.

'Zilla, I had never noticed your sig before, but I love it. Pleeeeeease go back in and increase the font size, so that it is easier to appreciate.

As I read all the above, it seems ironic that each gender stands to benefit by getting a better connection with what the other gender does: men to get a better feeling connection, woman a better raw sexual energy connection. How do we wind up in these binds?

Life is so short, and has enough pain anyway, to let opportunities for love and pleasure to pass by needlessly.

Daryl

PS: The film High Fidelity does a great job of summarising the dysfunctional male stance. That language is full on, but the central male problem ID is great.

PPS: When I rule the world :eek: , I will ban fake female orgasms in porno. If there aren't real 'O's, then there will be no porno! :)

[dogzilla]

Glad you like the sig; I just changed it recently. But I'm not going to make it bigger, because that seems to me like a big ass bumper sticker. I could change my attitude tomorrow and then I'd need a new sig and then where would we be? Nope. It just won't do. Sorry.

Oh, and are you talking about this John Cusack movie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0146882/?fr=c2l0ZT1kZnx0dD0xfGZiPXV8cG49MHxrdz0xfHE9SGlnaC BGaWRlbGl0eXxmdD0xfG14PTIwfGxtPTUwMHxjbz0xfGh0bWw9 MXxubT0x;fc=1;ft=20;fm=1)? A search of the Internet Movie Database reveals no less than four films titled, "High Fidelity." Curious. FTR, I have the book for the one I linked to, I think. I don't think I've read it.

:: checks to make sure it's in the Netflix queue ::

[Born Free]

Glad you like the sig; I just changed it recently. But I'm not going to make it bigger, because that seems to me like a big ass bumper sticker. I could change my attitude tomorrow and then I'd need a new sig and then where would we be? Nope. It just won't do. Sorry.

Oh, and are you talking about this John Cusack movie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0146882/?fr=c2l0ZT1kZnx0dD0xfGZiPXV8cG49MHxrdz0xfHE9SGlnaC BGaWRlbGl0eXxmdD0xfG14PTIwfGxtPTUwMHxjbz0xfGh0bWw9 MXxubT0x;fc=1;ft=20;fm=1)? A search of the Internet Movie Database reveals no less than four films titled, "High Fidelity." Curious. FTR, I have the book for the one I linked to, I think. I don't think I've read it.

:: checks to make sure it's in the Netflix queue ::

Bright girl. Go straight to the top of the class! Yes that is the one. (You will love his analysis of popular love songs genre!)

'Zilla, sadly I cannot comment on the book. If usual form prevails, the book will be 10 times better than the movie, but in many cases, the two are so different as to be unrecognizable.

Daryl

PS: I discovered the great lines in the review:

"Rob: What came first, the music or the misery? People worry about kids playing with guns, or watching violent videos, that some sort of culture of violence will take them over. Nobody worries about kids listening to thousands, literally thousands of songs about heartbreak, rejection, pain, misery and loss. Did I listen to pop music because I was miserable? Or was I miserable because I listened to pop music?"

Now that is pornographic!!! :eek:

[free thinker]

Thanks for your insights. I have some thinking to do.

What powerful stuff sex is. I am perplexed that such a seemingly small part of life can occupy such an immense space.

ft

[helemon]

Anyone else catch this episode tonight? Pretty hilarious. It also makes fun of the Veggie Tales.
http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/drawn_together/episodes/season_2/episode204.jhtml
http://www.comedycentral.com/images/shows/drawntogether/videos/season2/dt_m4_204_foxy_image2.jpg
Wooldoor finally reaches puberty and can't stop masturbating. This leads to the "birth" of his magical Clum Babies, which have healing powers. Clara views it as an act against G-d and is on a mission to stop him.

[bobcat]

Great posts. Thanks for the insights. I wish I hadn't spent so much of my life thinking that sex wasn't a valid topic of discussion until marriage.

[dogzilla]

I've seen the movie several times, because I kind of have a thing for John Cusack. He's the sort of dork I'll end up with. ;) (And yes, the musical analysis was great. His co-workers in the record store are exactly like some of my friends. Too funny.) The book is by Nick Hornby, but I don't believe I've read it. If I do, I'll let you know which is better.

And yeah, Helemon, I saw that episode. It was on again last night. Foxxy Brown's dolphin "appliance" makes me laugh really hard. That one's a classic.

[papa]

five star thread!

[vixenz]

As for erotica/porn with females having a good time, I regret that I too am waiting for those titles. As a male who never tires of females capacity to sexual pleasure, I can't begin to relate to guys who enter that space totally selfishly.


I recommend Janine and Jenna, if I remember right Janine is only making movies with other woman now (or it could be Jenna, I forget). I personally haven't watched many porns but I have been picky about the ones I have seen. I tend to enjoy watching women with women more than anything else. I think it is a combination of seeing a women orgasm (I'm not sure if they're real but it's still good) and the fact that I usually don't find the men as attractive. I'm not sure why but I seem to be attracted to men with smaller frames and the whole "meat head" look that most of the guys have is a turn off for me. My husband and I do enjoy watching porn together and have even made some of our own for personal use. Watching that can be even more exciting than watching someone else.

I grew up in a very religious LDS home and struggled with self confidence and "fitting in" with the culture most of my life. I have experienced the insecurity many LDS women experience from porn and it wasn't until recently (the past couple of years or so) that I've been able to get over that insecurity so I can appreciate both viewpoints. It was difficult to get past but once I did I realized what the problem was. For me it was a combination of poor self image as well as the bad feelings that come from going against a group conscience such as the LDS church that told me porn in and of itself was "wrong".

I have found for myself that many things that appeared "bad" or "wrong" while I was an active member no longer give me guilt like they used to. It is not that I no longer feel guilt of any kind, instead I feel guilt when I go against my own conscience - what I personally feel to be "right" or "wrong". There are things I have seen in every religion or group conscience I have explored that I do not necessarily agree with and feel it would be wrong for me to go against my conscience by aligning it with the group conscience. If there is indeed intelligent design it would stand to reason that my creator would want me to be true to my creation - to my own conscience. If there is not a creator this would not matter, but either way I am happier when I am true to myself.

From personal experience as well as other's I've seen many problems that seem to stem from oppression or ignorance of some sort. Oppression is a strong word I believe can only be used in certain situations for certain individuals. The LDS culture is male dominated which is not necessarily a bad thing for all involved, however there are many individuals who do no fit well into such a structure. For these women male dominance can be extremely frusterating, especially when it comes to issues that have already been discussed such as the pressure to have many children, stay at home, please their husbands and avoid birth control and masturbation. Women also tend to be more empathetic in general than men because of how we are wired, and I believe this goes to waste in a culture built upon by preisthood holders only.

Anything that is not fully and openly understood and discussed as we're doing now will inevitably become taboo. Taboo subjects are repressed which is extremely unhealthy and can lead to self destructive behavior or even branch out to include others (anger against others, violence, etc.). I have seen situations where people have repressed so much for so long that eventually they break down and rebel against the surrounding culture in any and every way possible - anything from perpetual cursing (cursing for the sake of cursing, instead of to emphasize a point) to hatred and other self destructive behaviors.

I do believe in moderation and openness in thought and discussion. How are we to progress as individuals and as a culture if we do not think outside ourselves? Great minds of our history weren't usually warmly welcomed....

[Born Free]

<snip>

If there is indeed intelligent design it would stand to reason that my creator would want me to be true to my creation - to my own conscience. If there is not a creator this would not matter, but either way I am happier when I am true to myself.

<snip>

I do believe in moderation and openness in thought and discussion. How are we to progress as individuals and as a culture if we do not think outside ourselves? Great minds of our history weren't usually warmly welcomed....
Vixenz,

A big warm PostMo welcome! :) :D :) (See, I can more easily extend a warm one, given that I am in Queensland, Australia, and it is comfortable swimming weather here, not that I am doubting that those in the northern hemisphere at this time, will extend a warm one too.)

Great to have you on board, and particularly great to have another perspective on this issue that is so hot in so many relationships.

I read your response as close to my 'not only, but also'! If you feel comfortable in acknowledging that there are more colours than black and white around, I suspect you will thrive here.

I have grabbed, what for me, is an interesting section of your post. Can I engage you around "If there is not a creator this would not matter, but either way I am happier when I am true to myself."

Regardless whether there exists a "Big Architect', would it not make sense for lions to be 'lionish', for fish to be 'fishish'? Is not that integrity to purpose, or authenticity?

The way I figure it, turtles are much happier attempting to be turtles, than hares! And more likely to pull it off, don't you reckon?

Daryl

[helemon]

I recommend Janine and Jenna, if I remember right Janine is only making movies with other woman now (or it could be Jenna, I forget).

It's Jenna. Since she recently got married she only has sex on film with her hubby or other women. And they say porns stars don't have any standards! :D

[vixenz]

I have grabbed, what for me, is an interesting section of your post. Can I engage you around "If there is not a creator this would not matter, but either way I am happier when I am true to myself."

Regardless whether there exists a "Big Architect', would it not make sense for lions to be 'lionish', for fish to be 'fishish'? Is not that integrity to purpose, or authenticity?

The way I figure it, turtles are much happier attempting to be turtles, than hares! And more likely to pull it off, don't you reckon?

Daryl

First, thank you for the warm welcome, I'm already enjoying this board! And helemon, now that you mention it I do remember my husband telling me about Jenna :)

I've been struggling with my views of what I consider "reality" which for each individual is subjective. If we could all get this into our minds I think there would be a lot more openness and tolerance in the world.

When I first started "falling away" from Mormonism one of my main concerns was what I would teach my future children (I still do not have children and don't plan on having any soon but still want to some day). I started reading every different perspective on reality I could get my hands on anywhere from philosopers such as Nietzsche, Kant, Socrotes, Bertrand Russell (many of these I was introduced to in college) to religious authors of different faiths - one of my favorites being Spong - and Buddhism. I also began reading things that seemed to me a bit outside of the reality that I could grasp such as The Art of Dreaming by Carlos Castaneda and another book I can't remember the name of now about past life regression that was strangely detailed.

The more I opened myself to new thoughts and perspectives the more I made myself available when people with interesting ideas came along. I've spent many hours in deep conversations that would appear to come at random times to an observer but came at just the time I was ready for these new ideas.

The reason I bring all of this up is partly to give a little background of myself but mainly to tell you where my thoughts came from that you are interested in. I had one of these seemingly random conversations a couple of months back with an individual I knew of but had never gotten a chance to know before. Your comment about the animals is something this person would have said and and they had a thought that I had never really considered that is now one of many that sticks with me. This is what I'd like to share with you.

The reality is we don't know anything before or after the life we are currently living. One person's guess is as good as the next. There are things we can deduce based on knowledge gained from trial and error such as evolution, but that tells us relatively little.

That leaves everything wide open to speculation, theory and common sense (once we understand how things function nonesense becomes sense). The thought I mentioned about intelligent design was not in reference to any theistic God as most would imagine a God. Imagine the universe, what little we know about it. Can you imagine that we are the only intelligent beings that exist in any universe? How long have universes been coming in and out of existence? Is there not a possibility that intelligence far more advanced than ours is/has been in existence far longer than we can ever comprehend?

With that thought in mind....

Is there not a chance that there are intelligent beings who have learned how to harness energy we call "spirit" or "soul", who have learned to transcend time (we have already proven time is relative, there is a possibility that we could "step out" of it), or who have taught themselves how to begin the creation of a whole new universe? Who is to say our universe/world wasn't started by intelligent beings, then left to exist?

Think of how far we have come in only 100 years. If we don't kill ourselves off who knows what we might learn and achieve in the next hundred years.....In the next thousand years.....In the next million years.....

[free thinker]

Greetings and welcome to postmo.

I have been enjoying your initial post's. At some point it would be nice to hear your story. Most have started a new thread when doing so, so feel free to follow suit. Also feel free not to write your story. It is a casual invitation.



Think of how far we have come in only 100 years. If we don't kill ourselves off who knows what we might learn and achieve in the next hundred years.....In the next thousand years.....In the next million years.....


I am an optimist and believe we will not destroy ourselves. I am confident that humanity will ever increase it's knowledge base over the millenia, and hopefully with this knowledge will come increased awareness of, and sensitivity to, the nobility of humankind.

ft

[vixenz]

Greetings and welcome to postmo.

I have been enjoying your initial post's. At some point it would be nice to hear your story. Most have started a new thread when doing so, so feel free to follow suit. Also feel free not to write your story. It is a casual invitation.



Think of how far we have come in only 100 years. If we don't kill ourselves off who knows what we might learn and achieve in the next hundred years.....In the next thousand years.....In the next million years.....


I am an optimist and believe we will not destroy ourselves. I am confident that humanity will ever increase it's knowledge base over the millenia, and hopefully with this knowledge will come increased awareness of, and sensitivity to, the nobility of humankind.

ft

I like to think of myself as an optimist as well, that remark was somewhat sarcastic (I say somewhat because of our current & even past political situations, but that's a can of worms I'm NOT going to open!) ;)

I supposed I could start a new thread and formally introduce myself ... so far I've left little parts of myself here and there in my random posts ... I'm really a very open person as you have probably already seen from some of my posts, I don't mind sharing :)

Perhaps I'll do that tomorrow, I'm getting ready to leave work now.

[Born Free]

I like to think of myself as an optimist as well, that remark was somewhat sarcastic (I say somewhat because of our current & even past political situations, but that's a can of worms I'm NOT going to open!) ;)

I supposed I could start a new thread and formally introduce myself ... so far I've left little parts of myself here and there in my random posts ... I'm really a very open person as you have probably already seen from some of my posts, I don't mind sharing :)

Perhaps I'll do that tomorrow, I'm getting ready to leave work now.
Freethinker,

Take great caution is asking vixenz to open up, man! Her first foray took us into her bedroom (hope it wasn't the car) and the family's porno critique! :eek:

:: She should fit in well here! ::

Daryl

[vixenz]

Freethinker,

Take great caution is asking vixenz to open up, man! Her first foray took us into her bedroom (hope it wasn't the car) and the family's porno critique! :eek:

:: She should fit in well here! ::

Daryl

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!! :eek:

[free thinker]

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!


I consider myself warned and yet am curious. :cool:


ft