i dont know my own mind now

[ifitmakesuhappy]

i just found this site and registered last night...im 28yrs old and LDS all of my life but soon to be ex-communicated due to my 'coming out'. I have always had the utmost respect for the church and its 'faithful members'. ive poured through quite a few of the threads and its really given me a lot of things to think about. I feel guilty even for being here and reading some of the things...some of it makes me feel very uncomfortable but of course i realise that these feelings of guilt are due to the way i was taught and that i shouldn't feel guilty for simply looking into some of my doubts about the church. Nevertheless the feelings are still there. I'm so intrigued by some of the things i have read and feel forced to evaluate my whole life and even my opinions, which are largely based on my lds upbringing and being told all of the answers, rather than finding out my own opinions and feelings. Theres so many things in my head now and so much i want to say but i should unscramble it before i tell it lol :D

[bigeddy]

Dear If . . .,
Welcome. There are so many people to be reached who live with the pain of shame due to being given BS understandings of God by people who don't know what they are talking about but keep on ranting "God's will" to innocent others who just want to do good.

I find that to someone in the part of the journey you seem to be in that asking the first questions that come to mind is a good way to begin. Ask away.

Ed

[lsands]

Yesterday I posted the following on the thread about preventing sexual abuse:

Those of us who have left (and are posting here) have experienced the incredibly painful process of having the foundations of our worlds and belief system rocked to their core, with the resultant fallout from the loss of family and friends. This is not a journey for the faint of heart. HOWEVER, it is WORTH IT, all of it, for the reward at the end.

I was thinking last week about how I lived the first 40 years of my life asleep, unaware of what I thought or felt because I was so focused on doing what I believed was "right", and burying any thoughts or feelings that contradicted that. I've spent the last 8 years excavating, and have found buried treasure: MYSELF. And I am now free to explore all of my thoughts and feelings and to have new experiences. HALLELUJAH! I have gone from being dead and buried to opening my eyes to the rich, beautiful world, with permission---even encouragement---to experience and explore any and all of it. I can make mistakes, and, as Paul talked about, learn and grow, without shame.


I have not had your experience, happy, of being excommunicated for being gay. I cannot imagine what that must be like. I hope that you will not think me unfeeling if I offer my opinion that they are really doing you a favor by excommunicating you! I hope that this is the beginning of a journey to discovering and loving yourself in ways that would not have been possible within the LDS church.

I echo bigeddy's welcome, and encourage you to seek support here. I would also refer you to a great resource I am aware of, an organization called Affirmation for Gay and Lesbian Mormons [http://www.affirmation.org/default.asp] They even have a section in their Learning Center on church discipline called, "LDS Discipline and Excommunication: A New Guide for Gay and Lesbian Mormons." I sincerely hope that this new path that you is being forced on you will ultimately make YOU happy.

Laraine

[nikki]

It can take a little time to get your thoughts untangled, and it is good that you realized and are taking the time you need.

In your post you mentioned, you were going to be excommunicated. Has the process been started? You can write a letter to the church and resign. Why should the church put you through a process which is stressful and meant to be embarrassing.

All one needs to do is write a letter to the Chruch, your Bishop, and ask for your name to be removed from church record. By law the moment you put the letter in their hand, or they receive it, you are officially not a member of the LDS Church anymore.

The board is a good site for discussion and information. Some on the board, are well versed in areas, others well versed, educated and experienced, some have a wealth of experienced ;) to share.

Just think (God) lead you to the Post Mormon site! :)

[silverfox]

i just found this site and registered last night...im 28yrs old and LDS all of my life but soon to be ex-communicated due to my 'coming out'. I have always had the utmost respect for the church and its 'faithful members'. ive poured through quite a few of the threads and its really given me a lot of things to think about. I feel guilty even for being here and reading some of the things...some of it makes me feel very uncomfortable but of course i realise that these feelings of guilt are due to the way i was taught and that i shouldn't feel guilty for simply looking into some of my doubts about the church. Nevertheless the feelings are still there. I'm so intrigued by some of the things i have read and feel forced to evaluate my whole life and even my opinions, which are largely based on my lds upbringing and being told all of the answers, rather than finding out my own opinions and feelings. Theres so many things in my head now and so much i want to say but i should unscramble it before i tell it lol :D

Welcome, ifit - I feel such a strong pang of familiarities reading your post. I remember my first "journey" surfing the web researching, looking to prove the "rumors" were untrue. I was filled with angst and guilt for several weeks. I found folks who would give me information and answers in a neutral manner. I did a lot of research and then found the link "20 Truths of Mormonism". This summed it all up and I don't know why but it allowed me to be free. How could anyone including the church blame me? If the church would start coming out and start teaching their own members what they have to sneak around to find out they might be able to hold onto a few more.

I hope this forum can help you find the support you need either direction you choose. When you say "coming out" do you mean as gay or as a non believer? Because many a non believer has been excommunicated. Either way know you are not alone. You also have the option to request your name be removed by resigning. This will halt your excommunication....or it's supposed to anyway. There are links that can help. "Mormon No More" is an exellent one.

Best wishes to you. I look forward to getting to know you.

[shamdiel]

I'm so intrigued by some of the things i have read and feel forced to evaluate my whole life and even my opinions, which are largely based on my lds upbringing and being told all of the answers, rather than finding out my own opinions and feelings. Theres so many things in my head now and so much i want to say but i should unscramble it before i tell it lol :D


What I would say to you is you now have a wonderful opportunity for discovery. You hit the nail right on the head when you referred to “being told the answers” rather than finding out for yourself. The challenge though, is sorting out all the crap from that which would enhance the quality of your life. Throwing out the trash, so to speak.

I have had a tremendous number of experiences since my excommunication from the Church. My excommunication was for apostasy. I was labeled an apostate because I began studying the Church History without the permission of the church authorities, and was 'turned in' by a close family member. Talk about persecution! Mormons' are quick to point out what they have gone through, in their ‘history’, and even today (poor babies). Believe, me they can dish it out pretty darned good! Be it families or friends. The bottom line for me was I never really liked being ‘told’ what to do or believe. But when I was brought face to face with being forced to make a choice, the choice became easy. When this Stake President, when asked if he were not of the ‘very elect’ (after all he was pretty high up in the church), and that perhaps he could be deceived as easily as I, replied: no, that scripture can’t be referring to me,”( Nice lawyer!!) I knew in that moment, that everything I had been taught to that point in my life was just an illusion. (Or shall I say, delusion.)

However, I do not want to focus on any of the negative. The positive that came out of my experience, is that I am free now to really discover what God means to me, and for my own reasons. I have the freedom to explore that if there is a Father, then wouldn’t logic be that there is also a Mother? I now have the freedom to explore that God could very well be a Father and Mother, who would not want to inflict pain and suffering on their children, but would give their child the freedom to choose, and make decisions for themselves, and to learn from those decisions. Not the vengeful, angry God that the Bible, and even Book of Mormon allude to.

I was talking with a gentleman several years ago, and he made a statement that I have never forgotten. What he told me was “to find the truth, look at that which is beautiful, and in its shadow, you will find the truth.”

So now, with my new freedom, I can openly search for things that my heart and soul can accept, that which bespeaks of beauty to my soul. I no longer have to have the same prejudices that I was taught to have growing up. I can see the goodness in all human beings. Those who are different than I am are no longer a threat. In fact, differences are what make the world a more interesting and exciting place. (With the exception of the terrorists, who by their ‘religious’ traditions believe that killing is the thing to do for their God.) That makes no sense to me. I’ll never give my allegiance to a God of that nature, though. So, don’t feel guilty for wanting to check things out. Realize that your own goodness will help direct you to find that truth your heart and soul reaches out for. There is nobility and greatness in you that was not given to you by the church, your parents, or friends. It came from your Heavenly parents and it will not fail you! You will never discover your greater self by going to church or the temple. I believe that God would find it very hard to pass through any of those doors! In order for CAs to protect their authority it is imperative, for them to keep their grip on you, and all church members. They will never let you go, to leave you in the care of your own greater self and that of your Heavenly parents. Not without convicting you of some sin against God and the Church. They must discredit you!!! I asked the SP that exed me if we walk beside him or behind him into the Celestial Kingdom and he said; “ You walk behind me!” Wow, that was an eye opener! I will never allow these kinds of egomaniacal men to take charge of all the physical and spiritual aspects of my life again! You would be better off if you didn’t allow it either!! God bless you on your journey; John

[silverfox]

So now, with my new freedom, I can openly search for things that my heart and soul can accept, that which bespeaks of beauty to my soul. I no longer have to have the same prejudices that I was taught to have growing up. I can see the goodness in all human beings. Those who are different than I am are no longer a threat. In fact, differences are what make the world a more interesting and exciting place.

Ditto! It's amazing how wonderful humans are in spite of what we have been taught. Each day is a learning experience for me. I have to fight some of the old conditioning...especially quick judgement of others.

You know, I used to think people with tattoos were bad. Although I ALWAYS wanted one!!!!! I think they are very creative. After my apostacy my kids got together and presented me with a tattoo as a Xmas gift. I was delighted! But scared. This would be taken as a permanent "message" that I would be sending to TBMs. (I am evil, bad, loose, slutty - whatever you want to pin to a tattoo) Living in Utard I still use caution. I know how TBMs feel and think because I was one at one time. So I got my tattoo in a place that is not readily visible. But this year I think I will get one that can be seen. It takes a long time to be totally free of the conditioning. I still feel pangs of guilt for stupid things. But it is habit, not the holy ghost or anything like that that TBMs would like to make me think.

[ifitmakesuhappy]

wow thankyou all so much for ur replies and support...i feel like today has changed my whole life forever and while thats kind of exciting its scary too. as someone said, yes i feel the whole foundations of my belief system and indeed of my life have been rocked to the core...that the church is 'the only true church upon the face of the earth' is something i have always taken for granted and never questioned. even having the strength to come out as being gay, i felt that its non acceptance of me was the church's only fault. even sitting here now i am questioning my sexuality and feeling guilty for it. not questioning my being gay, but i do feel like im doing something wrong by being who i am. i want to lose that feeling.
Something that has always stuck in my mind from being about 18yrs old i had been rebelling slightly, and goin out drinking. My Bishop whom i love and respect to this day, asked me simply...."Joseph Smith...Prophet of God or a con man?" Instantly i felt ashamed of everythin i had done 'wrong' and of course my reply was "Prophet of God". Its only today, reading the 20 truths link that i'm re-evaluating my reply to that question.

[ifitmakesuhappy]

In your post you mentioned, you were going to be excommunicated. Has the process been started? You can write a letter to the church and resign. Why should the church put you through a process which is stressful and meant to be embarrassing.

All one needs to do is write a letter to the Chruch, your Bishop, and ask for your name to be removed from church record. By law the moment you put the letter in their hand, or they receive it, you are officially not a member of the LDS Church anymore.


Hi nikki thankyou for the reply to my thread. My looming excommunication has been a long process. When i spoke to my Bishop about a year ago (not for the first time about being gay - i was already dis-fellowshipped for my relations with another woman) my intentions were to resign from the church because i knew that i could no longer turn my back on my feelings for women. I asked my Bishop what would be the right thing to do - to state my will in a letter or to let the church go through its disciplinary proceedures...he advised me to do the latter which is while im still a member all this time later. I suspect the reason it has taken them so long to get the ball rolling is because they are hoping my relationship will end and i will go running back to them. And maybe i would have done...before i found this site.

[silverfox]

Hi nikki thankyou for the reply to my thread. My looming excommunication has been a long process. When i spoke to my Bishop about a year ago (not for the first time about being gay - i was already dis-fellowshipped for my relations with another woman) my intentions were to resign from the church because i knew that i could no longer turn my back on my feelings for women. I asked my Bishop what would be the right thing to do - to state my will in a letter or to let the church go through its disciplinary proceedures...he advised me to do the latter which is while im still a member all this time later. I suspect the reason it has taken them so long to get the ball rolling is because they are hoping my relationship will end and i will go running back to them. And maybe i would have done...before i found this site.

The church will ALWAYS encourage you to not resign. They want the control to make that decision. That way they can say, look this member was gay so we ex'd them. Rather than this member is gay and decided to leave the church because we are antigay. kwim?

I strongly encourage you to write a resignation letter to stop all excommunication processes. They want it on their records that you were ex'd due to being gay. This is WRONG, IMO. They are taking that choice away from you. It is also a bad reflection on the bish and stake prez to have members resign rather than being ex'd so they will always try to ex before you decided to leave. Frustrating.

[lsands]

I strongly encourage you to write a resignation letter to stop all excommunication processes. They want it on their records that you were ex'd due to being gay. This is WRONG, IMO. They are taking that choice away from you. It is also a bad reflection on the bish and stake prez to have members resign rather than being ex'd so they will always try to ex before you decided to leave. Frustrating.

I second silverfox's idea: Take back the authority over your life and resign rather than be ex'd. I'm sorry that you are forced into making that decision, because I was able to wait until I was ready to resign. But they have NO POWER over you, and resigning let's them know it. If you resign, you take away their fun, especially if they were planning ask you any juicy questions about your sex life during the court! Don't play their game.

It took me about five years until I was ready to formally resign my membership. I felt a lot of sadness over it, leaving the church of my childhood, etc. But all of the negative feelings were only in anticipation; after I received my letter I have been so glad that NO ONE else will ever think they have any power over my life again.

even sitting here now i am questioning my sexuality and feeling guilty for it. not questioning my being gay, but i do feel like im doing something wrong by being who i am. i want to lose that feeling.

YES, you should lose that feeling! You deserve to feel the truth, that you are divine and perfect and whole. I have found that any idea or experience that I have that makes me feel empowered and good about myself is of God (who or whatever He/She is).

Blessings on your journey.
Laraine

[ifitmakesuhappy]

I'm unsure now of what to do...the advice you have given me to hand the letter in and all that about me taking the power back makes perfect sense, so half of me wants to do that. The other half of me wants to 'have my day in court'. I know the outcome will be certain excommunication and i accept that. But also i want to stand before them and show that I am not ashamed or embarrassed to face them, and that im not afraid that they will 'talk me out of it'. I want them to know that this isnt just me rebelling against a bad marriage and a strict upbringing. I wonder if I gave a letter and it all ended there, would i look back and regret not having my say. I'm torn.

[lsands]

The advice you read here is what worked for me; that doesn't necessarily mean that that is what you should do. I know of many people who attended and spoke in their courts for exactly the reasons you give. Facing your "accusers" personally may be just what you---and they---need.

So, please, don't listen to me---listen to YOU! We'll be here to support and encourage you no matter what.

Laraine :)

[Born Free]

I'm unsure now of what to do...the advice you have given me to hand the letter in and all that about me taking the power back makes perfect sense, so half of me wants to do that. The other half of me wants to 'have my day in court'. I know the outcome will be certain excommunication and i accept that. But also i want to stand before them and show that I am not ashamed or embarrassed to face them, and that im not afraid that they will 'talk me out of it'. I want them to know that this isnt just me rebelling against a bad marriage and a strict upbringing. I wonder if I gave a letter and it all ended there, would i look back and regret not having my say. I'm torn.

ifitmakesuhappy,

I am on record as one of those prickly "up your nose" bastards, who went to court and assertively stood my ground. For me it had a finality that I needed to shut the door.

In your case, I would encourage you to consider getting a really powerful "homosexuality is part of the natural order" case assembled, and then put into writing that you want them to expedite your case. Many saints do not know that they are entitled to a rigorous defence in a Church Court. It would be an ideal forum to put the Church "in the box" to justify its anti-scientific stance.

I do appreciate that if you are still finding your feet in your post-Mo version of you, that may be too big an ask, but Mormonism has no legs to stand on on this issue, beyond fear and ignorance. With a little networking, you will probably find both gay and straight people, who would be delighted to support you in addressing this antideluvian attitude.

So I hope this adds a third option for you and that in there you can find one that resonates as right for you.

Daryl

[silverfox]

I'm unsure now of what to do...the advice you have given me to hand the letter in and all that about me taking the power back makes perfect sense, so half of me wants to do that. The other half of me wants to 'have my day in court'. I know the outcome will be certain excommunication and i accept that. But also i want to stand before them and show that I am not ashamed or embarrassed to face them, and that im not afraid that they will 'talk me out of it'. I want them to know that this isnt just me rebelling against a bad marriage and a strict upbringing. I wonder if I gave a letter and it all ended there, would i look back and regret not having my say. I'm torn.

I absolutely see where this experience could be very empowering for you. I'd like to know how it goes. I hope they take the opportunity to learn from you. Best wishes.

[free thinker]

My hope for you is that you find the peace you seek!!


I do not believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet! I think he was a self serving egomaniac , with a prediliction for dishonesty!!

I found my answers here at post-mo! I think you will find some intelligent and caring people here!! Stay Tuned!! :cool:


Free Thinker

[mutleydog]

Dear IDKNMOMN,

I have replied to your personal message account. However, I never realised you are going through ex-comm process. On the first level I think its disgusting it has taken you so long! On the second level my advice to you is definately get out NOW! That was one of the first decisions I made - to get out before they ex-comm me. Some people are stronger than others, but I was not willing to put myself through the humiliation, no matter how much I wanted to make my views known. I know personally my confidence and mind were in enough tatters to go through that kind of experience. :(

I am gald you have found much support from this website amd community - I wish it was around a few years back when I was in the same position as you!! I am sure it would have been a very wee bright light in what seemed like a very long black tunnel!! ;)

Please do not hesitate to contact me. I know I live a few miles up north from you, but I want you to know I am here for you for advice and listening ear. Its not an easy road, but believe me it does get a whole lot easier!! :)

Mutleydog :D

[bigeddy]

Dear ititmakesuhappy,

I have never resigned from momoland. I wrote a letter once that I never sent. I was so angry when Gordy did his rant about tatoos and piercings. I addressed the letter "Dear Knotheads" but I never sent it because, like you, I kind of want them to come up with a reason and then let me have my time to push some truth in their faces.

A few people on this board wrote about John Shelby Spong so I got several of his books and spent some time reading his stuff. His book "Living in Sin" has some excellent things about homosexuality. He is an Episcopal Bishop (retired) and speaks from a postion using the Bible and the research we have about what homosexuality really is and why it is a normal, natural manifestation of life. His position is that the churches should make no difference about people when it comes to sexual preference. He is in favor of gay priests, gay marriages in churches and his position is backed by a lot of good research and excellent thought. It might give you good ammo for your "day in court."

I realize that the final decision as to how you will handle this will be yours. You cannot do anything wrong, just listen to you and what you decide will be the right choice because you made it. You will certainly have my support regardless of what you decide.

Ed

[gracie]

wow thankyou all so much for ur replies and support...i feel like today has changed my whole life forever and while thats kind of exciting its scary too. as someone said, yes i feel the whole foundations of my belief system and indeed of my life have been rocked to the core...that the church is 'the only true church upon the face of the earth' is something i have always taken for granted and never questioned. even having the strength to come out as being gay, i felt that its non acceptance of me was the church's only fault. even sitting here now i am questioning my sexuality and feeling guilty for it. not questioning my being gay, but i do feel like im doing something wrong by being who i am. i want to lose that feeling.
Something that has always stuck in my mind from being about 18yrs old i had been rebelling slightly, and goin out drinking. My Bishop whom i love and respect to this day, asked me simply...."Joseph Smith...Prophet of God or a con man?" Instantly i felt ashamed of everythin i had done 'wrong' and of course my reply was "Prophet of God". Its only today, reading the 20 truths link that i'm re-evaluating my reply to that question.

Hi,
I am also very new here, i relate to your comment about how you feel a little guilty about reading this kind of information! It's that conditioning we revert to I guess! One comment you made resonated with me particularily, "I feel like im doing something wrong by being who I am" As a 30 something ,straight, married mom of 3, formerly zealous Stake primary pres. I can relate!!!!!!! I have felt for YEARS that there is something wrong with who I am deep down, because it was never enough, never the ideal, never who I was told I "should" be. I never questioned that church leaders might be wrong. Although I am early in my journey, I know that who I am is enough, that what I want and need is important, that I decide what is right for me. Unfortunately, it's easy to lose that focus and it is a daily struggle, but well worth the effort. I can never go back. We each need to define what is right for ourselves, and I hope you find the peace that can come from that (I only get glimpses of it myself still) :o this is a healthy place to be and you will find unconditional support; something you seldom if ever find in the mo-world!
Gracie

[Born Free]

Hi,
I am also very new here, i relate to your comment about how you feel a little guilty about reading this kind of information! It's that conditioning we revert to I guess! One comment you made resonated with me particularily, "I feel like im doing something wrong by being who I am" As a 30 something ,straight, married mom of 3, formerly zealous Stake primary pres. I can relate!!!!!!! I have felt for YEARS that there is something wrong with who I am deep down, because it was never enough, never the ideal, never who I was told I "should" be. I never questioned that church leaders might be wrong. Although I am early in my journey, I know that who I am is enough, that what I want and need is important, that I decide what is right for me. Unfortunately, it's easy to lose that focus and it is a daily struggle, but well worth the effort. I can never go back. We each need to define what is right for ourselves, and I hope you find the peace that can come from that (I only get glimpses of it myself still) :o this is a healthy place to be and you will find unconditional support; something you seldom if ever find in the mo-world!
Gracie

I recall a wise associate of my father, who kept his brain faily well engaged while a practicing Mo, commenting after retuning from another "rev you up for greater performance" Church Conference, that he had taken the time to calculate what demands the Church made upon his time.

I have forgettoen the numbers after all these years, but they simply didn't add up; or rather, to be more accurate they added up to way over the top.

He worked out that it was simply not possible to achieve everything that was expected. It follows that if a member has never done that exercise and rejected the ideal as unachievable and therefore ridiculous, then they are on a flogging to nothing! The numbers don't fit. I could go insane trying, AND/OR reduce myself to perpetual guilt and inadequacy (which of course is what this is all about).

Sadly too many Mormons struggle along in silence, never sharing their feelings of inadequacy, suffering under the idea that others are making this work, and that they are the only one out of step.

No one takes a reality check, and shouts "The King has no clothes on!" :eek:

Daryl

[mutleydog]

I would have to agree with Studgw.....I honestly cannot even comprehend now how I managed to pursue all my church activities/callings, run a home, write a PhD and do part-time work!!! As I see it, the church gives you so much to do, so much responsibility that you have no time to do anything else, a part from the essentials - its their way of keeping you engaged. I think out of a typical week.....saturday mornings used to be the only time I had to myself and sometimes that was taken up with food shopping! Most days I was doing something church related!!

[Free-soil]

I would have to agree with Studgw.....I honestly cannot even comprehend now how I managed to pursue all my church activities/callings, run a home, write a PhD and do part-time work!!! As I see it, the church gives you so much to do, so much responsibility that you have no time to do anything else, a part from the essentials - its their way of keeping you engaged. I think out of a typical week.....saturday mornings used to be the only time I had to myself and sometimes that was taken up with food shopping! Most days I was doing something church related!!

I completely relate. While, I am only a college student and am minus a family, it was utter harry carry all the time. As singles, they seem to fill your days with more things to keep you from "going astray". I recall one busy semester when the only day I wasn't at the church was Wednesday night, and that was because of splits with the sisters. I can't believe I did all of those things and still managed to make decent grades! No wonder when I finally left the church, I went to my parents' house and crashed for three days! :rolleyes:

[nikki]

I came across this quote, and thought the board might enjoy it, since it express changes in life;

" Life is no straight and easy corridor along
which we travel free and unhampered,
but a maze of passages,
through which we must seek our way,
lost and confused, now and again
checked in a blind alley.

But always, if we have faith,
a door will open for us,
not perhaps one that we ourselves
would ever have thought of,
but one that will ulitimately
prove good for us."
----A.J. Cronin

[peter_mary]

" Life is no straight and easy corridor along
which we travel free and unhampered,
but a maze of passages,
through which we must seek our way,
lost and confused, now and again
checked in a blind alley.

But always, if we have faith,
a door will open for us,
not perhaps one that we ourselves
would ever have thought of,
but one that will ulitimately
prove good for us."
----A.J. Cronin

No, no, NO, Nikki...you forgot! The way is straight, and the path is narrow, and there is an iron rod to which we cling! Remember? See, that's our problem...we all let go of that damn rod, and now we're wandering around down blind alleys! :D

Actually, I've been speaking at LENGTH with my own daughter lately about doors that open and close, and this quote expresses that nicely. Thanks!

Now, back to that iron rod before we have to whack you with it! :D

Paul