Need help w/letter to LDS principal

[silverfox]

My daughter's high school principal is in our ward. I don't know him. He moved in after we stopped going to church.

The first time I had issues with him was when he mailed out postcards to ALL female students regarding the dress code for the upcoming dance. This info was already in the handbook and I thought it odd and discriminating that he didn't send any notifications to the male students. I called and complained to him. What a waste of postage. And why just single out how girls should dress?

About a month ago my daughter's grandpa died. She stayed home and was also getting a cold at the same time. She went to school after school was over to meet with her dance teacher. Daughter was wearing a skirt about 4 inches above the knee and had on very thick black tights (no skin showing)

The principal stopped her in the hallway and scolded her for her skirt. She explained that she hadn't even been at school all day due to feeling ill and her grandpa dying during the night. She had a mandatory meeting with a teacher...that was the only reason she was there. (he had never approached her before)

He put his arm around her said he was sorry about her grandpa and if she needed to she could talk to him about it. No thanks, she said, she had plenty of people to talk to about it. (I am sure, though, that he felt they couldn't "help" her like he could with his spiritual eliteness)

Fast forward approximately a month. Daughter is walking down the hall to leave school at the end of the day. Principal calls her by name. (she thought this was weird because he never speaks to her, she didn't even know he knew her by name)

Hey, C'mere. Your're (daughter's name), right?

yes.

Did you know that I am in your ward?

yes.

I don't ever see you in church. In fact, did you know that I make appts for the bishop?

No.

Yeah, I do and I remember him mentioning that he would like to meet with you.

Hmmm.

So how about I set up an appointment with him for you?

Um. No thanks.

It will only take a minute and the bishop really wants to meet with you.

No, that's okay.

This is all I got from her in the short time we had to chit chat on the way to taking her to work. There is more she said.

On the same day we get a bunch of flyers and shit on our front door for daughter about activities, etc. About 10 pages worth.

Here is where I get upset.....

Who the F*CK does he think he is approaching my daughter or any student in school to discuss religion? And to HARRASS them about meeting with a bishop?

I won't tolerate it. There HAS to be some boundaries in this state when it comes to Mos and school. I am sick to death of it.

So.....I want to write a letter that I can send to the school district and cc the principal. I want this behavior stopped.

I haven't even attempted to write it yet (lack of time and too angry) and I will soon but I would like to post it here and have it critiqued. I want it to be as productive as possible so that it helps stop this kind of crap. Can you guys help me out?

I wish he would have talked to her about a grade she is getting in one of her classes that she is struggling with. But NO he has to waste the time talking about Mo shit. grrrrrrrrrrr

And don't go thinking he is "concerned" about her, etc, etc, etc. He couldn't care less.

argh!

[firefly]

:eek:

speechless

[lunaverse]

Silver, make sure you CC: the Utah Chapter of the ACLU, and that this CC: is at the bottom of the letter, so the School District can see.

There may be also some appropriate higher state organization to CC: it to, like the state school board or atorney general?

It may also help to CC: your Bishop. Have you previously sent anything to them requesting no contact? Now may be the time to do that, in a separate letter. Also, have you and/or your daughter officially resigned? Such items would be important to point out in the letter, if they are so.

I would hint at legal action, and use the word "right" a few times. i.e. "It is well within my right to take legal action", and "The Constitution of the United States guarantees my child's right to attend school without the promotion of religion", and "I have a right as a parent to teach my child as I see fit about spiritual matters, and that is not the pervue of the school." (Yeah, remind them that parent rights work both ways!) You may quote the specific wording of the constitution as well, or not, if it fits.

BTW, I just dropped over to Utah ACLU (http://www.acluutah.org/), and there are all kinds of current dress code issues going on right now. Don't let it distract from your point, but if you can find a way to work it in, let them know that you feel their specific handling of the dress code is a little too close to the standards of a certain religion, and that you feel this is also the "establishment of religion" in a public, government-run forum. Dress codes in non-Utah schools are not so specifically Mormon (i.e. dress length = knee length, focus on the girls, etc.)

You might also mention that any employee of the school, especially someone as high up as the principle, will be seen as very powerful to the kids. i.e. the Principle has power over her grades, school discipline, etc. For the same reason teachers and administration cannot have relationships and sex with chidlren, so should they not be discussing religious matters with students within the context of the school.

If anything happens without legal action, what will probably occur is this principle will get suspended for a couple of days. Or they will ignore it, and you might be able to get the ACLU to help.

Luna

[helemon]

Didn't you ask for your kids names to be removed from the church as well? Or is your hubby still attending? I forget. If you had then this guy definitely had no reason talking to your daughter.

You should write this individual a letter explaining that you felt his actions were inappropriate and that if they happen again you will pursue legal action against him on the grounds of religious harassment. School is not the time for scheduling bishops interviews, furthermore it is highly inappropriate for him to use his position of authority at the school to intimidate or pressure children at his school to have an interview with the bishop especially without your knowledge and consent.

But I wonder if such action would do any good in UT. I fear that it would be tossed out with the principal receiving little more than a light admonition to be more considerate in the future.

[hamar]

Ms. Fox, I definetely agree that threats of legal action are on the options list, but I'm not sure I'd go there in my first communication with them/him.

I think it would be appropriate, once the steam settles down a bit to clearly state your, and your family's (including DD) current status with TSCC. You can make it very clear to him and your bishop/exbishop what the rules of engagement must be in the future.

Remind him that in carrying his responsibilities within TSCC over to the school environment is an inappropriate use of his authority as a principal. Attempting to use his position as her principal to coerce her into a meeting with an ecclesiatical leader that she is no longer affiliated with is not only unwelcome, but likely illegal use of authority on his part.

If her name is still on the records of TSCC he may be able to weasle out of any legal claims, especially in Utah, since the church often slips over into the education venues. I would not let that stop me from making it clear to him that I felt his actions were unwelcome and would likley result in more agressive measures in the future.

I too think it a little unusual that he knew her name and put his arm around her at one point. Assuming this is a large school, I think it a little strange that he singled her out. I'm probably just being a little too suspicious; her name probably came up in bishopric meeting and he said he would make it a point to find out who she is and attempt to set up a meeting. Reckon that is a little of my past life coming to the surface, an shit?

[free thinker]

I would handle this very simply. Probably cost a couple hundred dollars.

Contact an attorney and explain what happened. Ask his advice, and if he considers it worthwhile, have him place a quick call to the principal informing him that he is no longer to discuss religion with your daughter, and his student. If he persisits you will proceed with legal action.

The conversations will come to an abrupt end I can assure you.


ft

[jamerica]

The principle has no buisiness bringing TSCC into school let alone trying to convert your daughter using an underhanded methods, and to top it off without your permission. God! The Church makes me sick in it's methods.

That being said I would hold off on bringing an attorney into it, I agree with helemon and hamar on this one. I would confront the principal telling him that you were offended and in what ways you feel he overstepped his bounds also include that if he continues in his efforts that you will persue legal action.

In my experience almost all of our problems can be settled outside of court using common sense and civility. I feel that coming out guns ablazing with an attorney in toe is like trying to kill an ant with a 12 gauge. One thing that will happen for sure is that you will make an enemy out of someone for doing only what he feels is right no matter how retarded his beliefs are. Hopefully he would respect your wishes once they become known, most people have the decency to do that. If he doesn't then that would be truely tragic. After that point I would use legal action for sure, feed him to the wolves he would deserve nothing better. :D

[dogzilla]

It may very well be overkill, jamerica, but I'm sort of with freethinker on this one. If silverfox doesn't make a really strong statement here, that asshole priesthood-holding principal will treat her like he thinks she's just another dumb, spineless chick and will accost her daughter again within a matter of days weeks. She's got to hit hard with both hammers or he won't take her seriously. (And props to your daughter for not being afraid to say no to authority! I never would have been able to refuse a meeting.)

I wouldn't say that if we were talking about a non-LDS principal. In normal circumstances, yes, one should be able to resolve this without both guns blazing. But this guy has been brainwashed to believe that women should be and are subjugate to men, so Silver has to have the balls in this exchange. She has to draw a line in the sand and then stand there defiantly to defend her line. Or he'll just keep crossing it.

I would contact the local ACLU chapter and see if I could get a good letter from them, or help from one of their attorneys. I would personally hand deliver it, then I would get myself on the agenda at the next school board meeting and read the letter into the public record. Right after that, I'd send it off to the local paper and ALL of the tv news channels. (There's nothing like pissing off a PR professional to bring publicity and attention to an issue! LOL)

This is about our Constitutional right to the separation between Church and State. If I hear one more numbnuts claim this is a Christian country... I'm defecting to Switzerland. ("F**k it! I'm Swiss!" -- Bill Maher)

[miss taken]

Silverfox, since in the UK LDS make up such a small minority there is NEVER any problem with this issue.

My son is at a C of E school (they tend to be very very good, and teach good ethics based on general christian principles).
However neither the Head or any of the teachers are devout christians let alone devout C of E. The Governing body however does have at least 4 people I think from the C of E to ensure that there is harmony between the childrens secular and religious education.

I don't know much about the US education system, but I thought (excuse ignorance) that there were fairly strict rules about the separation of religion and education.

Here we have local education authorities that deal with individual schools then a few national bodies such as Ofsted and the DFES (Dept for Education and Skills).

I wonder if a quiet word with any of these groups might be appropriate. There should be a complaints procedure that is clear and outlined in the prospectus of the school.

Teacher, then head and then on up if resolution can't be met???

I do agree with you on this. It is wrong and the principal is overstepping his bounds even with his own best intentions. It is not part of his professional remit, and he shouldn't be doing it.

Let us know how you get on???


Mary

[silverfox]

Thanks for the feedback. I will be writing a letter to the district and I will cc the principal and the bishop. I will also send a copy to our local newspaper. And the church headsquarters. They need to start considering boundaries. Of course they will just pull the whole innocent approach - "we aren't in control of what our members do" and then preach on Sundays that you should sacrafice everything for the church, including your jobs.

We live in a small community. There are about 700 high school kids so a letter to the newspaper will get attention. Both good and bad. You should see some of the letters re: church. Sheesh But our little town is pretty diverse for Utard.

I am researching how the whole ACLU thing works. I will send them a copy, too.

Once my letters are sent then I will set up an appointment with the principal to make it clear what the boundaries are and should be. I will call the bish and the district to make sure they realize how serious I am.

I resigned over a year ago and asked that my kids not be contacted. Hubby is inactive and has no intent to return and has made it clear to local leaders.

I think what they are using, though, is that said daughter recently turned 18. She is still in school. But she is willing to write her own letter. (funny, they demand that I excuse her as a parent when she is absent but for things like this I am sure they will use her age to their advantage. Bastards!) She is not interested in being involved with the church at all. It is her decision. She is informed with both pros and cons and she has already spoken with the bish about her feelings (about the time I resigned when he did the pity appointment with her - oh, you poor thing mommy left the church - it backfired on him, he doesn't realize how tight she and I are)

Our youngest daughter, 11, has never been baptized.

I am going to try to send out the letters by the end of the week. At first I was going to meet with everyone but I want a paper trail. I want it on file. Then I will meet with everyone.

Thanks again!

[dogzilla]

If you'd like an editor's eye on any of your letters before you send 'em out, feel free to e-mail them to me. I'll be happy to give 'em a once-over for you.

[bobcat]

Just looking at this post for the first time, and I agree with what you're doing. Far too many boundries have been crossed. And when you're dealing with an LDS principal in an LDS state, sometimes you have to be very aggressive. If you don't take a strong position, he may leave YOUR daughter alone, but probably won't feel too inclined to respect other kids and their religious decisions. Your actions will definately make sure he doesn't do the same thing to others.

On a different note, this flashes back to High School for me, when our principal was a stake president in town. He didn't have a reputation for being overly religious in school, rather he had a strong interest in many of the Drill Team and cheerleaders. When multiple allegations of sexual harrasment and other inappropriate conduct surfaced, he wasn't fired, suspended, or even investigated. He was simply transferred to another school about 15 miles north of ours. Thus, I'm more inclined to suggest strong tactics when dealing with TBMs who grossly misuse their authority.

[papa]

was me, I'd consult a lawyer and see how much we could hit them for. Prolly not a good idea for you tho.

[lunaverse]

As an aside, my high school physics teacher was the Bishop. As I recall, I don't think he had any problems with drawing a line between Church and school. I remember him telling humorous stories in class about him growing up in rural Idaho, but other than that...

This shouldn't be a problem for them.

And what ever you do, I would defininately make the ACLU aware of it. I think they like to keep track of this sort of thing.

Luna

[silverfox]

I have been ill most of last week and wasn't able to work on this. I was going to post my letter but now am leaning toward keeping it anonymous. I fear daughter will be the recipient of retaliation. The bishop will tell other members in the ward and it can snowball from there. Daughter has to work with members in our ward and attends school with them as well. I don't want her to be shunned anymore than she has been just because of this.

Anyway, dogzilla, thanks so much for your offer to edit the letter. Actually, it's very short and to the point. I will PM it to you.

Thanks for all the feedback.

[dogzilla]

FTR, (for everyone else's benefit) I have taken a look at the letter and PM'ed it back to Silverfox.

I just wanted to publicly express my outrage that y'all in the Corridor feel like you have to run scared all the time. It pisses me off that you can't just stand up for your rights and demand equal treatment without fear of retribution on your families and your businesses.

How is that Christian behavior? Why do the morg not see their tactics as harassing and discriminating? I don't recall the Sermon on the Mount saying anything about "Blessed are the Discriminating Harassers who will not rest until they have bugged the ever loving sh** out of everyone around them, for they will be rewarded with free toaster ovens."

See, if Silverfox lived in just about any other state (with the possible exceptions of Idaho and, as I understand, certain parts of Arizona), this not only would not be an issue, but she could have a private meeting with the principal and the issue would be resolved. But make a stand and read the letter into the record at the next school board meeting and Silver and her family are basically ruined in their town. And, I'm to understand that everyone who lives in the Corridor has to live this way?

That's sad.

[silverfox]

FTR, (for everyone else's benefit) I have taken a look at the letter and PM'ed it back to Silverfox.

I just wanted to publicly express my outrage that y'all in the Corridor feel like you have to run scared all the time. It pisses me off that you can't just stand up for your rights and demand equal treatment without fear of retribution on your families and your businesses.

How is that Christian behavior? Why do the morg not see their tactics as harassing and discriminating? I don't recall the Sermon on the Mount saying anything about "Blessed are the Discriminating Harassers who will not rest until they have bugged the ever loving sh** out of everyone around them, for they will be rewarded with free toaster ovens."

See, if Silverfox lived in just about any other state (with the possible exceptions of Idaho and, as I understand, certain parts of Arizona), this not only would not be an issue, but she could have a private meeting with the principal and the issue would be resolved. But make a stand and read the letter into the record at the next school board meeting and Silver and her family are basically ruined in their town. And, I'm to understand that everyone who lives in the Corridor has to live this way?

That's sad.

You are RIGHT!!!! And your PM and this post made me realize by being forced to remain anonymous I continue to allow the MORG and their little Morgbots to have control. BullSHIT.

I talked to daughter and it's a go. We will both sign it. Hopefully things will change. At least she is a senior this year and will be done.

Dog, YOU ROCK. Thank you. I challenge everyone to stop being "afraid" of the reactions of Mos when we call them on the carpet. I'm starting with me. I'll report back.

[bobcat]

Dog, YOU ROCK. Thank you. I challenge everyone to stop being "afraid" of the reactions of Mos when we call them on the carpet. I'm starting with me. I'll report back.

Congratulations on this realization, and best of luck in your efforts.

[dogzilla]

The Road Not Taken

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

-- Robert Frost

[dogzilla]

As you may know, I work in education (large-scale testing) with a bunch of teachers and administrators. Most of those people are also parents. I just sat down in our Math Lead's office and presented this "hypothetical" situation to him and asked for his reaction as both a parent and then as an administrator.

He agrees, there is no way you can spin this situation to end up looking appropriate. He suggests sending your letter to the principal, but since he's the guilty party, you must go on up the chain. His boss should be copied, whoever that is. (District superintendent? We have no idea how your schools are structured out there.) He cautioned you that if the principal's boss is also part of the morg, then nothing may come of this. If there is another incident, or if there are any repercussions for your daughter, then you get to invoke the lawyers and call out the Big Guns (ACLU!). He also suggested that there is probably a school district attorney who should be made aware that such occurences are taking place in one of his high schools. I told my co-worker that I'd go to the school board meeting and read the letter into the public record. (Always the pot-stirrer!) He said that even podunk redneck school districts don't let people do that anymore because there would be lines out the doors and school business would never get done. You could cc: the school board, but don't expect any action or anything. I would.

He said -- and he was an asst. vice principal at a middle school in a very rural, rednecky county -- that all sorts of rules regarding religion and Title IV are broken all the time. Most districts will ignore that until people start talking about lawsuits. His boss's policy was: we'll enforce this rule when someone threatens to sue us because this district cannot afford to fight a lawsuit.

Then this thought occurred to me: What if this principal had sent an e-mail to your daughter instead of speaking to her in the hallway? Couldn't that be considered solicitation of a minor? Don't they bust pedophiles for doing things like, trying to set up meetings with minors over the internet? I'm sure this principal is no pedophile, but he's obviously not "worldly" enough to consider the implications of his actions and how those actions might appear to an outsider.

My friend said, if your daughter had approached him that would maybe be a different story, but still her questions (if she had any and went to him) should be handled off-campus and with parental involvement.

I'm curious: To those of you who do NOT live in the corridor. Maybe you live on the East Coast like me... What if this situation occurred in your school? What if some Scientology nutjob English teacher tried to get your kid to come in and have his Thetan levels read?

Anyway, I'm very glad to hear you and your daughter are taking your power back! This will be a great life lesson for her.

[silverfox]

:mad: :mad: :mad: The response I got from the principal is appalling. He is basically calling my daughter a liar, giving me HIS sweetened up version. :mad:

One of my main concerns as an LDS member and as a post member is the liars the church creates.

This bastard is LYING and making my daughter look like a fool. My daughter would NOT lie about this.

I am FURIOUS. He uses the recent death of her grandfather as his excuse. Stating he was concerned about her and felt she needed to talk to somone because he saw her crying about it in school.

For those of you who don't live in the Mo-assed corridor and ask why we so many times try to stay anonymous - well, here you have it. Because the Mos encourage lies as long as you are "spreading the gospel" or doing the Lard's work. Tweak it, shake it, move it, turn it, do what ever you must do to protect your religion and your f*cked up attitude. It doesn't matter who gets hurt. Make the nonmo's look like the ones with issues. Make them look like liars when YOU are the the liar. Hey, it's all good - remember it's all in the name of the Lard. It's all for a good cause. You will be rewarded for it.

The sad part - these f*cking liars are believed just because they are Mo. Because I am no longer Mo and because my daughter is inactive we will not be believed by members. Period that is the way it is. That is why so many remain quiet or respond anonymously. This is life in the corridor.

Right now I am extremely upset over this. It's one thing to call me a liar but now you are messing with my daughter's integrity, you bastard.

This is NOT the end of this. Mr. MoMan Principal thinks he can sugarcoat his ass and that's the end of it???? Think again, coward.

Argh. I'll be back later - needed to vent.

Edited to censor my swearing - Jeff, I will PM you about the automated censors.

[miss taken]

:mad: :mad: :mad: The response I got from the principal is appalling. He is basically calling my daughter a liar, giving me HIS sweetened up version. :mad:

One of my main concerns as an LDS member and as a post member is the liars the church creates.

This bastard is LYING and making my daughter look like a fool. My daughter would NOT lie about this.

I am FURIOUS. He uses the recent death of her grandfather as his excuse. Stating he was concerned about her and felt she needed to talk to somone because he saw her crying about it in school.

For those of you who don't live in the Mo-assed corridor and ask why we so many times try to stay anonymous - well, here you have it. Because the Mos encourage lies as long as you are "spreading the gospel" or doing the Lard's work. Tweak it, shake it, move it, turn it, do what ever you must do to protect your religion and your f*cked up attitude. It doesn't matter who gets hurt. Make the nonmo's look like the ones with issues. Make them look like liars when YOU are the the liar. Hey, it's all good - remember it's all in the name of the Lard. It's all for a good cause. You will be rewarded for it.

The sad part - these f*cking liars are believed just because they are Mo. Because I am no longer Mo and because my daughter is inactive we will not be believed by members. Period that is the way it is. That is why so many remain quiet or respond anonymously. This is life in the corridor.

Right now I am extremely upset over this. It's one thing to call me a liar but now you are messing with my daughter's integrity, you bastard.

This is NOT the end of this. Mr. MoMan Principal thinks he can sugarcoat his ass and that's the end of it???? Think again, coward.

Argh. I'll be back later - needed to vent.


Silverfox I have no idea if this will help, but my son's headteacher said some pretty rotten things about my son when he first started school. One of the things she said was....I have been teaching for 10 years (so had I but that wasn't the point) and never in my whole teaching career have I met anyone like your son. She wasn't happy when she said it, and it most certainly wasn't a positive.

It made me feel very insecure to feel that she obviously didn't like him and didn't know how to cope with him. She also said that he couldn't even achieve basic levels in literacy and numeracy, this was noted by the EP. Tests revealed that not only was that wrong but that he was ahead by a long way. (and infact was performing in the gifted range)

When my husband confronted her, she denied everything and did so to cover her own backside. I think it goes with the territory and that was the real point that I wanted to make.
Heads, mormon or non-mormon, pushed against a wall, will cover their own backsides.

In the end justice was proven right, because we were right and she was wrong. And in private, when we talked it through she came pretty near to admitting it.

I don't know if that helps?????

Mary

[firefly]

Silverfox, that is truly outrageous, and I hope you and your daughter kick his creepy ass.

That said, I've lived in SLC for the past 8 years (I can see the church office building from my window) and one of the reasons this whole story is so APPALLING to me is that I have never come close to experiencing anything remotely like it. I've had some annoyances, surely, and plenty of eye-rolling stories, but "running scared" all the time - in fear of retribution? I know shit like that happens sometimes, (like when I lived in an extremely conservative Catholic community in New England whose school system was a hotbed of church/state incestuousness) but on a personal level my postmo years in Utah have been relatively pleasant. I don't know what to make of the assertion that most postmos in Utah live in fear of mos. I do know that the socio/religious atmosphere varies greatly from community to community.

Anyway, Silverfox I hope you can resolve it quickly and thoroughly and find peace for yourself and your family.

[dogzilla]

He uses the recent death of her grandfather as his excuse. Stating he was concerned about her and felt she needed to talk to somone because he saw her crying about it in school.

I don't think that's an acceptable excuse for violating admin-student boundaries. If he saw her crying about her grandfather in school, the appropriate action would have been a referral to a guidance counselor, who could then contact you and refer an appropriate grief counselor, if you had not already taken that step. The least appropriate thing to do would be to attempt to coerce a kid to seek counsel with a religion that is not hers.

Stand your ground! Don't let his excuses sugarcoat the reality: The man is overstepping his bounds and that needs to stop, now. It's time to go over his head. And if you get the exact same response from the principal's boss, go to that person's boss... and go right on up to the District Superintendent and the School Board until you find someone who is willing to support you in enforcing the appropriate boundaries.

We've got your back, girl! Now get back in there, to battle, while you're still pissed off.

:: slaps silverfox on the ass ::

[silverfox]

I don't think that's an acceptable excuse for violating admin-student boundaries. If he saw her crying about her grandfather in school, the appropriate action would have been a referral to a guidance counselor, who could then contact you and refer an appropriate grief counselor, if you had not already taken that step. The least appropriate thing to do would be to attempt to coerce a kid to seek counsel with a religion that is not hers.

Stand your ground! Don't let his excuses sugarcoat the reality: The man is overstepping his bounds and that needs to stop, now. It's time to go over his head. And if you get the exact same response from the principal's boss, go to that person's boss... and go right on up to the District Superintendent and the School Board until you find someone who is willing to support you in enforcing the appropriate boundaries.

We've got your back, girl! Now get back in there, to battle, while you're still pissed off.

:: slaps silverfox on the ass ::

I am waiting for my daughter to get home from school so I can show her his response. (I did copy the superintendent and asst superintendent on my letter and will continue to do so on my responses)

See her version in my first post.

His version is that he approached her and asked her if she found someone to talk to about her grandfather's death. He was concerned because she was crying about it when it happened. He then suggested a counselor, parent or religious leader. He then said daughter told him her bish was our backyard neighbor and that she hadn't had time to talk with anyone.

I won't let this go. Hell, no. He may have thought he was doing the Lard's work but when my daughter sees what a liar he is making her out to be she will just stay further away from the church and the Mos. Who needs this?

The sweet part is that anyone who knows my daughter, in my ward or otherwise know what a great kid she is and how sweet and compassionate she is and she wouldn't lie about this. This guy is pretty new to our ward.

[free thinker]

I could not help but notice how salient your signature is in this situation. :)




I have survived all of the lies that have made me wise....Melissa Etheridge


Love Ya!

ft

[puff]

:mad: :mad: :mad: The response I got from the principal is appalling. He is basically calling my daughter a liar, giving me HIS sweetened up version. :mad:

One of my main concerns as an LDS member and as a post member is the liars the church creates.

This bastard is LYING and making my daughter look like a fool. My daughter would NOT lie about this.

I am FURIOUS. He uses the recent death of her grandfather as his excuse. Stating he was concerned about her and felt she needed to talk to somone because he saw her crying about it in school.

For those of you who don't live in the Mo-assed corridor and ask why we so many times try to stay anonymous - well, here you have it. Because the Mos encourage lies as long as you are "spreading the gospel" or doing the Lard's work. Tweak it, shake it, move it, turn it, do what ever you must do to protect your religion and your f*cked up attitude. It doesn't matter who gets hurt. Make the nonmo's look like the ones with issues. Make them look like liars when YOU are the the liar. Hey, it's all good - remember it's all in the name of the Lard. It's all for a good cause. You will be rewarded for it.

The sad part - these f*cking liars are believed just because they are Mo. Because I am no longer Mo and because my daughter is inactive we will not be believed by members. Period that is the way it is. That is why so many remain quiet or respond anonymously. This is life in the corridor.

Right now I am extremely upset over this. It's one thing to call me a liar but now you are messing with my daughter's integrity, you bastard.

This is NOT the end of this. Mr. MoMan Principal thinks he can sugarcoat his ass and that's the end of it???? Think again, coward.

Argh. I'll be back later - needed to vent.

Edited to censor my swearing - Jeff, I will PM you about the automated censors.I have noticed over the months that this is a problem that for you keeps coming back , someone from the church aproaches you about something to do with your children and causes you to get very upset , from a psychological point of view its not a good thing to keep happening for your own sense of mental well being , it would also be upsetting for your children , one thing mo,s are good at is gossip , so they would all know how you feel about the church , in that case , the contacts may be coming from people who,s only motive is to see you get upset , i know this is a big decision , but i think you should consider moving to a place where mormons do not dominate the general culture and have a firm foothold in for instance the school system , i only say this because what i pick up coming from you mentaly is that your overstressed and tired of trying to deal with this continual problem and it could be pushing you to a breakdown type situation , it obvious that a lot of damage has been done over the years with this unhappy relationship with the mormon church , the only way out is a complete seperation , thats my two bobs worth any way , another vocal mental battle is probably the worst thing to get involved in for you , sadly these people with there zealot beliefs do have power to make your life a misery in a place like utah , i hate to say this but i think some of them at least enjoy seeing you get wound up , good luck

[silverfox]

I have noticed over the months that this is a problem that for you keeps coming back , someone from the church aproaches you about something to do with your children and causes you to get very upset , from a psychological point of view its not a good thing to keep happening for your own sense of mental well being , it would also be upsetting for your children , one thing mo,s are good at is gossip , so they would all know how you feel about the church , in that case , the contacts may be coming from people who,s only motive is to see you get upset , i know this is a big decision , but i think you should consider moving to a place where mormons do not dominate the general culture and have a firm foothold in for instance the school system , i only say this because what i pick up coming from you mentaly is that your overstressed and tired of trying to deal with this continual problem and it could be pushing you to a breakdown type situation , it obvious that a lot of damage has been done over the years with this unhappy relationship with the mormon church , the only way out is a complete seperation , thats my two bobs worth any way , another vocal mental battle is probably the worst thing to get involved in for you , sadly these people with there zealot beliefs do have power to make your life a misery in a place like utah , i hate to say this but i think some of them at least enjoy seeing you get wound up , good luck

No offense, puff, but your post made me laugh. Don't worry the Mos don't have the power to push me to a breakdown. I take that back, only as a TBM could they have done that.

Do I get upset when some Mos don't recognize boundaries or continually push push push? Absolutely - as well I should especially when it comes to my children. These zealots only have power to make me miserable IF I allow it. My anger is fleeting. I had to keep reminding myself to even write that letter to start with. I kept forgetting about it. But I wanted to make sure I reacted so that this kind of behavior can possibly stop or at least my reaction might make some Mos think twice before they open their big mouths and over step their boundaries.

I've said it many times, Mo'ism is a very small part of my life although I am in the middle of it here in Utard. I have wonderful never mo and post mo friends in real life. We have a blast together. We don't even talk about church crap.

When something happens, such as this situation, I come here and bitch about it. Because I know you guys will listen and support me and help me deal with it. Then I can go back to my life and continue to continue to enjoy it to it's fullest.

When I showed my daughter the principal's response she just laughed. We ended up giggling at how stoooopid he made himself look by so ridiculously lying and sugarcoating the situation. It has turned into a joke, not a situation of hate or anger.

As much as I would love to move to a state that is less Mo, my roots are deep here with grandkids and friends. Plus I am not the type to allow someone to "push" me out. I am more the "bring it on" type. I believe, as with anything else, there are boundaries that should not be crossed and this is one of them and I will not allow it to go unnoticed. To do so, IMO, encourages this inappropriate behavior.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[helemon]

His version is that he approached her and asked her if she found someone to talk to about her grandfather's death. He was concerned because she was crying about it when it happened. He then suggested a counselor, parent or religious leader. He then said daughter told him her bish was our backyard neighbor and that she hadn't had time to talk with anyone.

I won't let this go. Hell, no. He may have thought he was doing the Lard's work but when my daughter sees what a liar he is making her out to be she will just stay further away from the church and the Mos. Who needs this?

The trouble is people do not have perfect memories of conversations. Both people could be accurately describing according to their memory, colored by intentions and the current situation, what happened. I agree with you that this person crossed a line, but you said he is new to the ward so he may not have known your daughter was no longer a member. He said he knew she was a member because he saw here name on the roles. It seems that you need to get your names off the roles at the ward house. You definitely need to let him and the bishop, and his supervisors know how you feel about this but I wouldn't go ballistic until there is an established pattern. He needs to know he crossed a line but his career shouldn't be ruined if he was genuinely concerned for the emotional well being of a student and not trying to use a period of emotional distress as a way to get her to come back to church.

I apreciate Dogz attitude about this but it seems your anger over this may be exacerbating the issue. Be firm and resolute about where you stand but hold off on legal fireworks until the guy demonstrates he has not learned his lesson. We all had this guys same mindset at one time. He is simply acting the way he thinks the church wants him to act. By treating him in a civil manner while demonstrating your resolutness about the inappropriateness of the matter may help him develop respect for you and your daughter. Try to burn him with anger and indignation and he will likely see your emotion as evidence of your unhappiness from not being a part of the church.

[silverfox]

The trouble is people do not have perfect memories of conversations. Both people could be accurately describing according to their memory, colored by intentions and the current situation, what happened. I agree with you that this person crossed a line, but you said he is new to the ward so he may not have known your daughter was no longer a member. He said he knew she was a member because he saw here name on the roles. It seems that you need to get your names off the roles at the ward house. You definitely need to let him and the bishop, and his supervisors know how you feel about this but I wouldn't go ballistic until there is an established pattern. He needs to know he crossed a line but his career shouldn't be ruined if he was genuinely concerned for the emotional well being of a student and not trying to use a period of emotional distress as a way to get her to come back to church.

I apreciate Dogz attitude about this but it seems your anger over this may be exacerbating the issue. Be firm and resolute about where you stand but hold off on legal fireworks until the guy demonstrates he has not learned his lesson. We all had this guys same mindset at one time. He is simply acting the way he thinks the church wants him to act. By treating him in a civil manner while demonstrating your resolutness about the inappropriateness of the matter may help him develop respect for you and your daughter. Try to burn him with anger and indignation and he will likely see your emotion as evidence of your unhappiness from not being a part of the church.

Daughter IS still a member. She doesn't attend, hasn't for years, has no desire to. I left it her choice to have her name removed when the time is right for her. I did, however, ask that my children not be contacted. Our ward is VERY well aware of how we feel and that we don't want contact. But you all know that doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what you tell them, they will do what they want. There have been many posts regarding this. Many of have experienced the intrusion regardless of what we ask.

I did not burn him with anger. In fact my letter was quite civil espressing the concern of a parent.

I come here to express my anger. I know how to be civil. I know how to handle a situation in a calm manner. I am sorry any of you have the impression that I'm stomping down to the school with smoke coming out of my ears and nasty words flying out of my mouth. I haven't threatened with any legal action...I think that's a little excessive for the moment, anyway.

I think my letter and response to his sugarcoated version will be enough, hopefully to make him think twice about his actions.

I am simply trying to make this guy, in his position, to see where he stepped over the line. He also needs to know it won't be tolerated.

I don't care if the Mos sit around and think I'm unhappy cuz I'm not a member anymore. Hell, they are going to think that ANYWAY.

I wish, when I had his mindset, that someone would have put me in my place. I may have gotten out of the church sooner.

Thanks

[silverfox]

Here is my response to the principal's sugarcoating:


Mr. XXX,

That was a very good attempt at "sugarcoating" your interaction with my daughter. However, you left out some important key points of concern.

· In your 4th paragraph you forgot to mention that when you passed in the hall, daughter told you she was doing fine. You then asked if she knew that YOU were in her ward. She acknowledged that she was aware of it.
· You then asked if she knew who her bishop was. She acknowledged that she did.
· You then asked if she realized that YOU are the one who sets up appointments with the bishop. She said no. She doesn't attend the church.
· You then asked if you could set up an appointment with the bishop for her. In fact, you said, you remember the bishop stating that he had been wanting to meet with her. She said no thanks.
· You asked her if she was sure because you could set it up for her right there at that moment.

My daughter doesn't lie. She has no reason to.

The above interaction with my daughter was very inappropriate. I disagree with you -it is coercion at it's best. In the future, I hope you think twice about where you draw the line regarding your responsibilities/concerns as a principal and your responsibilities/concerns as a member of your religion.

Sincerely,

silverfox

I have not received a response from him. I did, however, receive a response from the assistant superintendent:

Ms. silverfox: I thank you for the heads up with this sensitive matter. I will have a discussion with Mr. xxxxx so that he understands the separation of church and state. Sincerely,

Assistant Superintendent

Hopefully, we won't have to deal with much more of this stuff. I found out we have a new bishipric (as of last week) so I expect the usual calls to feel us out. I like the new bishop - he has always treated us with kindness and respect. We've known him for many years so maybe things will turn around now.

[helemon]

I wish, when I had his mindset, that someone would have put me in my place. I may have gotten out of the church sooner.

Thanks

Ok, thanks for that clarification. You are right to stand your ground and call him on this. :)

[helemon]

I like the new bishop - he has always treated us with kindness and respect. We've known him for many years so maybe things will turn around now.

Maybe he is one of those closet apostate bishops I keep hearing about. :D

[silverfox]

I looked at the local newspaper today and there is a big article on the high school principal being fired. It stated that he was fired for his "parent or public relation skills".

It also states that the district had never reprimanded him for the alleged deficiencies prior to his termination.

It's nice to see that my complaints were taken seriously. There is hope, people!!!! Hope that maybe there ARE boundaries between state and religion. Not a lot but I can see that if we keep insisting to not tolerate inappropriate behavior that one day there WILL be boundaries.

I wish him well. Maybe he can go be a principal for FLDS where they would encourage his behavior.

*dancing a little jig* wooooooohoooooooo

[silverfox]

Here is my response to the principal's sugarcoating:


Mr. XXX,

That was a very good attempt at "sugarcoating" your interaction with my daughter. However, you left out some important key points of concern.

· In your 4th paragraph you forgot to mention that when you passed in the hall, daughter told you she was doing fine. You then asked if she knew that YOU were in her ward. She acknowledged that she was aware of it.
· You then asked if she knew who her bishop was. She acknowledged that she did.
· You then asked if she realized that YOU are the one who sets up appointments with the bishop. She said no. She doesn't attend the church.
· You then asked if you could set up an appointment with the bishop for her. In fact, you said, you remember the bishop stating that he had been wanting to meet with her. She said no thanks.
· You asked her if she was sure because you could set it up for her right there at that moment.

My daughter doesn't lie. She has no reason to.

The above interaction with my daughter was very inappropriate. I disagree with you -it is coercion at it's best. In the future, I hope you think twice about where you draw the line regarding your responsibilities/concerns as a principal and your responsibilities/concerns as a member of your religion.

Sincerely,

silverfox

I have not received a response from him. I did, however, receive a response from the assistant superintendent:

Ms. silverfox: I thank you for the heads up with this sensitive matter. I will have a discussion with Mr. xxxxx so that he understands the separation of church and state. Sincerely,

Assistant Superintendent

Hopefully, we won't have to deal with much more of this stuff. I found out we have a new bishipric (as of last week) so I expect the usual calls to feel us out. I like the new bishop - he has always treated us with kindness and respect. We've known him for many years so maybe things will turn around now.

I should mention that me and this principal had about 8 email exchanges. All of which he wsa trying to justify his behavior. One justification was that it is a small town and comments like this are normal to say in passing. ????? WTF??? He never denied his actions...he just debated with me trying to justify his behavior. He wasn't sorry about what he did but sorry that I was offended.

Did I ever tell you all how when he was first principal he mailed out postcards to all the female student's homes stating what they could or could not wear to the dance that was coming up? No bare shoulders, dresses had to be to the armpits so no bare backs, no spaghetti straps, no short dresses, etc, etc, etc.

What pissed me off about this was that the rules were in the handbook. He didn't mention how the guys should dress (I tried to pay one of daughter's friends to go without a shirt under his suit coat, heh heh) He wasted postage and the cost to do this. He could have sent home flyers with students if he felt it was that important.

Anyway, I feel good that maybe my complaints helped with the decision to get rid of him. Now I wonder if there will be any retaliation from those who like him. He lives in our ward. It's okay, I'm prepared for it.

[dogzilla]

That seems like great news!

You did mention the dress code postcards, and, IIRC, we were duly outraged. ;)

I'm sure your complaints weren't the only ones, but I'm also sure that yours probably had a lot to do with the firing. Hoepfully, this man has learned a valuable lesson about important boundaries and how one appropriately behaves as an authority figure and justifies (or not) one's actions.

Way to win that battle!

:: joins silver for happy dance ::

Where's the Booty Jam smilie?

[noodle]

This is really encouraging! Way to go, Silverfox! Several years ago, my boss, who recently moved here from VA, was astounded to find out that his son's preschool group was walking to a nearby church to attend bible study each day. This was done without permission from any of the parents. He and his wife, along with just ONE other couple, complained. The preschool management responded with astonishment that this was an issue for them. It truly is amazing how boundaries are ignored. It is great that folks like you, Silverfox, are standing up for our rights.

mamajama

[hamar]

Wow, what great feedback, to see this thread pop back up again, with this kind of news. Fox, you have to feel pretty good that, you not only stood up for what you felt important, but actually had positive results from your protests.

I kind of suspect that your letter wasn't the first issue that has come up with this guy. I do, however, believe that your letter was probably the straw that broke his back. Congrats for that, I'm sure he received just what he deserved.

Knowing you, I don't think you will be losing much sleep over any potential retaliation from him or his friends. They have too much to lose if they try to retaliate after his termination, where you so obviously were significantly involved in the decision to terminate. Way to go!

I don't dance too good, but I'm thinkin a little jig. :p