D. Michael Quinn's recent talk at UVSC: He's still a believer

[lsands]

I am including here the text of an article from the Provo Daily Herald about Quinn's visit to UVSC Wednesday night. His comments on doubt and its effects are interesting, but what is most fascinating to me is that he is still a believer! I don't think there is anyone on earth who knows more about LDS church history than Quinn. Add to that the experiences he had being pressured to resign from BYU and as a gay man. I have enormous respect for Quinn; I wonder exactly what it is that he believes in.

I'm curious about others' reactions to this article.

Laraine

Historian delivers talk at UVSC
February 04, 2005 Caleb Warnock DAILY HERALD

Award-winning historian and independent scholar D. Michael Quinn spoke at UVSC on Thursday about his most recent research paper, "To Whom Shall We Go? Historical Patterns of Restoration Believers With Serious Doubts." Quinn is famous for his work about the LDS Church hierarchy and church teachings about homosexuality.

Following are excerpts from his paper and his question-and-answer session following his presentation.

Excerpts from the paper:

º "I accept ... that a person who was once an ardent believer has confronted doubts, sometimes too great for the good person to maintain former beliefs in a religious leader, or organization, or community. I also accept the claim of ardent believers who say they have never had serious doubts. But when struggling with doubts sufficient to contemplate abandoning their faith, other believers consider doubt's next step: 'To whom shall we go?' "

º "Some regard disbelief as a passive experience which just 'happened' to them, while others affirm that they actively abandoned a faith they had actively discovered to be false."

º " . . . sadness is a common denominator in all accounts I have encountered by former believers in Mormonism or in one of its prophets. They have lost confidence, enthusiasm, trust, happiness, and a sense of belonging that at one time seemed the center of their lives. Anger is the next most common emotion . . ."

º "Once former believers have defined themselves as victimized by Mormonism, they regard believing Mormons as of only two types: either passive dupes or active participants in fraud."

º "In 1896 Apostle Heber J. Grant was severely 'tested' by the death of his 7-year-old namesake. He could not understand the unfulfilled promises of healing in priesthood administrations to his son. Moreover, Elder Grant could not 'reconcile' the death of his last surviving son with his own patriarchal blessings to have sons to carry on his name."

º "I propose no answer for this question: 'To whom shall we go?', but simply acknowledge its power in the lives of believers who confront serious doubts. I have given only a brief summary of its effects as I have observed them in past and present. If I argue or anything, it is that unshaken believers, lifelong skeptics and self-confident academics should all stop devaluating the anguish of people they do not understand."

From his question-and-answer session:

º "What is unique to Mormonism is the deadly fear that parents have that they won't see their kids again in the next life -- non-Mormons don't experience that kind of pressure."

º "Church leaders have as much experience with the church's past history as anyone who graduated from seminary, so they are not trying to conceal any concerns or a great secret or mystery, because they are not aware of them. If they haven't acquired a knowledge of church history before they become a General Authority, they don't have time to acquire it."

º "I sometimes wish there was more fear and trembling and searching for course correction among the General Authorities."

º "Historians are notably bad as prophets, but I feel the greatest engine of friction and change in the future church will be international Mormons."

º "I have tried to speak with both the voice of faith and the voice of an academic and I don't believe they are inconsistent."

º "I miss the temple. I was a temple worker, and I miss taking the sacrament, but there are so many policies the church has that I disagree with, and as a member I remained silent or muted my objections, but if anything those policies have accelerated and I could not come back and again be silent."

º "The church is a divine institution staffed by humans and I'm not being satirical when I call it a divine institution, I'm not speaking out of both sides of my mouth, I'm not speaking in code. I am a believer.

[Jeff_Ricks]

I am including here the text of an article from the Provo Daily Herald about Quinn's visit to UVSC Wednesday night. His comments on doubt and its effects are interesting, but what is most fascinating to me is that he is still a believer! I don't think there is anyone on earth who knows more about LDS church history than Quinn. Add to that the experiences he had being pressured to resign from BYU and as a gay man. I have enormous respect for Quinn; I wonder exactly what it is that he believes in.

I'm curious about others' reactions to this article.

Laraine

Historian delivers talk at UVSC
February 04, 2005 Caleb Warnock DAILY HERALD

Award-winning historian and independent scholar D. Michael Quinn spoke at UVSC on Thursday about his most recent research paper, "To Whom Shall We Go? Historical Patterns of Restoration Believers With Serious Doubts." Quinn is famous for his work about the LDS Church hierarchy and church teachings about homosexuality.

Following are excerpts from his paper and his question-and-answer session following his presentation.

Excerpts from the paper:

º "I accept ... that a person who was once an ardent believer has confronted doubts, sometimes too great for the good person to maintain former beliefs in a religious leader, or organization, or community. I also accept the claim of ardent believers who say they have never had serious doubts. But when struggling with doubts sufficient to contemplate abandoning their faith, other believers consider doubt's next step: 'To whom shall we go?' "

º "Some regard disbelief as a passive experience which just 'happened' to them, while others affirm that they actively abandoned a faith they had actively discovered to be false."

º " . . . sadness is a common denominator in all accounts I have encountered by former believers in Mormonism or in one of its prophets. They have lost confidence, enthusiasm, trust, happiness, and a sense of belonging that at one time seemed the center of their lives. Anger is the next most common emotion . . ."

º "Once former believers have defined themselves as victimized by Mormonism, they regard believing Mormons as of only two types: either passive dupes or active participants in fraud."

º "In 1896 Apostle Heber J. Grant was severely 'tested' by the death of his 7-year-old namesake. He could not understand the unfulfilled promises of healing in priesthood administrations to his son. Moreover, Elder Grant could not 'reconcile' the death of his last surviving son with his own patriarchal blessings to have sons to carry on his name."

º "I propose no answer for this question: 'To whom shall we go?', but simply acknowledge its power in the lives of believers who confront serious doubts. I have given only a brief summary of its effects as I have observed them in past and present. If I argue or anything, it is that unshaken believers, lifelong skeptics and self-confident academics should all stop devaluating the anguish of people they do not understand."

From his question-and-answer session:

º "What is unique to Mormonism is the deadly fear that parents have that they won't see their kids again in the next life -- non-Mormons don't experience that kind of pressure."

º "Church leaders have as much experience with the church's past history as anyone who graduated from seminary, so they are not trying to conceal any concerns or a great secret or mystery, because they are not aware of them. If they haven't acquired a knowledge of church history before they become a General Authority, they don't have time to acquire it."

º "I sometimes wish there was more fear and trembling and searching for course correction among the General Authorities."

º "Historians are notably bad as prophets, but I feel the greatest engine of friction and change in the future church will be international Mormons."

º "I have tried to speak with both the voice of faith and the voice of an academic and I don't believe they are inconsistent."

º "I miss the temple. I was a temple worker, and I miss taking the sacrament, but there are so many policies the church has that I disagree with, and as a member I remained silent or muted my objections, but if anything those policies have accelerated and I could not come back and again be silent."

º "The church is a divine institution staffed by humans and I'm not being satirical when I call it a divine institution, I'm not speaking out of both sides of my mouth, I'm not speaking in code. I am a believer.


It appears to me that me that Quinn remains a believer, as he calls it, because he fears what he sees as the only alternative – sadness, anger, loneliness.

From the article: “sadness is a common denominator in all accounts I have encountered by former believers in Mormonism or in one of its prophets. They have lost confidence, enthusiasm, trust, happiness, and a sense of belonging that at one time seemed the center of their lives. Anger is the next most common emotion”

His statement is true to a degree but he left out an entire segment of former Mormons who are finding happiness, contentment, peace, security, trust and a sense of belonging. Hmmmm.... I wonder who that would be :rolleyes:? I think the same fears keep many doubting Mormons in the Church. I’d hate to have to deal with the compartmentalization and cognitive dissonance that Quinn and others force themselves to endure.

Jeff

[silverfox]

It appears to me that me that Quinn remains a believer, as he calls it, because he fears what he sees as the only alternative – sadness, anger, loneliness.

From the article: “sadness is a common denominator in all accounts I have encountered by former believers in Mormonism or in one of its prophets. They have lost confidence, enthusiasm, trust, happiness, and a sense of belonging that at one time seemed the center of their lives. Anger is the next most common emotion”

His statement is true to a degree but he left out an entire segment of former Mormons who are finding happiness, contentment, peace, security, trust and a sense of belonging. Hmmmm.... I wonder who that would be :rolleyes:? I think the same fears keep many doubting Mormons in the Church. I’d hate to have to deal with the compartmentalization and cognitive dissonance that Quinn and others force themselves to endure.

Jeff

Yes!! He didn't expound on the positive at all of being an Post mo!!! Maybe he has not experienced any? I dunno. I've seen some member leave and still hold on so tightly to Mo'ism that it still controls them. I think the key to true happiness is learning to let go. I don't know enough about Quinn to speculate. Is it possible he is under influence from the Morg?

[nikki]

Temple work (ritiual), Mormon Community (society). No one knows for sure Quinn's inner thinking and struggles. Dr. Quinn may still be in a state of internal conflict.

Educated people are inducted into cults all the time, education level has little to do one's ability not to be conditioned to a cultish organization. Other people are BIC, Moromon Society is the way of life, it is one's friends, associates, activities, and faith, the way they were educated.

For some, leaving the LDS Chruch, is leaving the only society they have known, it is starting all over, making new friends, finding new interest, and new focus. It may be seen by some it is better to stay within the scope of Mormonizm than to lose so much.

I could never speculate on what is the drive behind Dr. Quinn. It was mentioned 'as a gay man he was forced to leave BYU', this must have been tramatic for him. Maybe, there is enough on his emotional plate to deal with, than to try to deal with all the issues involved in coming to a non-belief in the LDS Church. He might be going through enough emotional pain and conflict.

[Jeff_Ricks]

Yes!! He didn't expound on the positive at all of being an Post mo!!! Maybe he has not experienced any? I dunno. I've seen some member leave and still hold on so tightly to Mo'ism that it still controls them. I think the key to true happiness is learning to let go. I don't know enough about Quinn to speculate. Is it possible he is under influence from the Morg?


Maybe a good label for such a person as Quinn appears to be is a disbelieving believer. It ocurred to me that his apparent fence sitting is causing him the same kind of sadness and lonliness that he fears. In the article he said:

"I miss the temple. I was a temple worker, and I miss taking the sacrament, but there are so many policies the church has that I disagree with, and as a member I remained silent or muted my objections, but if anything those policies have accelerated and I could not come back and again be silent"

He must think that it only gets worse when you leave. I think he's projecting his sadness that he now experiences onto others who have left.

When Southerton was here speaking in Logan the marketing director for his publisher was here with him. When he saw the size of crowd we drew he asked if I might be interested in working with him on getting some of his other authors to speak at a similar event. Of course I said yes! One of them is Quinn. We need to get him here, have a po-Mo social afterward (like we did with Southerton) and introducing him to the other segment of post-Mormons he's not aware of. Does anyone know his email address? He should at least read through our statement of who we are on the home page. Hmmm… I’m sure I can get the address for his publisher.

Jeff

[nikki]

I am including here the text of an article from the Provo Daily Herald about Quinn's visit to UVSC Wednesday night. His comments on doubt and its effects are interesting, but what is most fascinating to me is that he is still a believer! I don't think there is anyone on earth who knows more about LDS church history than Quinn. Add to that the experiences he had being pressured to resign from BYU and as a gay man. I have enormous respect for Quinn; I wonder exactly what it is that he believes in.

I'm curious about others' reactions to this article.

Laraine

Historian delivers talk at UVSC
February 04, 2005 Caleb Warnock DAILY HERALD

Award-winning historian and independent scholar D. Michael Quinn spoke at UVSC on Thursday about his most recent research paper, "To Whom Shall We Go? Historical Patterns of Restoration Believers With Serious Doubts." Quinn is famous for his work about the LDS Church hierarchy and church teachings about homosexuality.

Following are excerpts from his paper and his question-and-answer session following his presentation.

Excerpts from the paper:

º "I accept ... that a person who was once an ardent believer has confronted doubts, sometimes too great for the good person to maintain former beliefs in a religious leader, or organization, or community. I also accept the claim of ardent believers who say they have never had serious doubts. But when struggling with doubts sufficient to contemplate abandoning their faith, other believers consider doubt's next step: 'To whom shall we go?' "

º "Some regard disbelief as a passive experience which just 'happened' to them, while others affirm that they actively abandoned a faith they had actively discovered to be false."

º " . . . sadness is a common denominator in all accounts I have encountered by former believers in Mormonism or in one of its prophets. They have lost confidence, enthusiasm, trust, happiness, and a sense of belonging that at one time seemed the center of their lives. Anger is the next most common emotion . . ."

º "Once former believers have defined themselves as victimized by Mormonism, they regard believing Mormons as of only two types: either passive dupes or active participants in fraud."

º "In 1896 Apostle Heber J. Grant was severely 'tested' by the death of his 7-year-old namesake. He could not understand the unfulfilled promises of healing in priesthood administrations to his son. Moreover, Elder Grant could not 'reconcile' the death of his last surviving son with his own patriarchal blessings to have sons to carry on his name."

º "I propose no answer for this question: 'To whom shall we go?', but simply acknowledge its power in the lives of believers who confront serious doubts. I have given only a brief summary of its effects as I have observed them in past and present. If I argue or anything, it is that unshaken believers, lifelong skeptics and self-confident academics should all stop devaluating the anguish of people they do not understand."

From his question-and-answer session:

º "What is unique to Mormonism is the deadly fear that parents have that they won't see their kids again in the next life -- non-Mormons don't experience that kind of pressure."

º "Church leaders have as much experience with the church's past history as anyone who graduated from seminary, so they are not trying to conceal any concerns or a great secret or mystery, because they are not aware of them. If they haven't acquired a knowledge of church history before they become a General Authority, they don't have time to acquire it."

º "I sometimes wish there was more fear and trembling and searching for course correction among the General Authorities."

º "Historians are notably bad as prophets, but I feel the greatest engine of friction and change in the future church will be international Mormons."

º "I have tried to speak with both the voice of faith and the voice of an academic and I don't believe they are inconsistent."

º "I miss the temple. I was a temple worker, and I miss taking the sacrament, but there are so many policies the church has that I disagree with, and as a member I remained silent or muted my objections, but if anything those policies have accelerated and I could not come back and again be silent."

º "The church is a divine institution staffed by humans and I'm not being satirical when I call it a divine institution, I'm not speaking out of both sides of my mouth, I'm not speaking in code. I am a believer.

Since reading the quote from Dr. Quinn, there were a few words which struck me at the initial reading, but I decided not to respond to them. It has been nagging me for a few hours, and I decided to come back a mention it.

"I'm not speaking out of both sides of my mouth, I'm not speaking in code." a quote from Dr. Quinn.

Code are words or gestures which have secret meaning to people who are in a secret society, or co- culture (a culture which is hidden, operating within society), in within oraganized crime as well in orgainzed abuse systems, ranging from family abuse systems, gangs, as well as other organzied abuse systems.

I found it the use of the word "code" interesting in his speech, since many people would not understand it's meaning and may skim over the word when reading or hearing someone speak of it.

Code, is what is used in the temple ceremony, the coded languages are the secret passwords, and names given in the temple, as well as the 'secret handshakes' and gestures which have been used within the history of the temples.

Codes can be so imbedded within the human mind, that when a 'key' or 'code' word is spoken it can invoke a response, most often it is a trauma response.

Codes, can also pass messages to another party, as we know from watching 007 movies! :rolleyes:

[lsands]

" . . . sadness is a common denominator in all accounts I have encountered by former believers in Mormonism or in one of its prophets. They have lost confidence, enthusiasm, trust, happiness, and a sense of belonging that at one time seemed the center of their lives. Anger is the next most common emotion . . ."
[/COLOR]
First, I think it is important to remember that this article gives only a brief synopsis of Quinn's remarks. The entire lecture (which I have heard will be published in Sunstone magazine; don't know when) may give a more complete picture of his beliefs.

When I read about the sadness and other painful emotions Quinn refers to, I interpreted that as referring to the feelings of those who are going through the process of leaving at the time, not for the rest of their lives. I don't know which interpretation is correct, but I do know that his description was accurate for me during the three years it took me to work my way out of the Church, and even at some times since.

Now, as I have posted elsewhere, I am truly happier, more at peace, and more enthusiastic about life now than I have ever been, and I know that I could not have reached this place without leaving the mormon church. I have no regrets.

That said, even now I sometimes feel the sadness and anger of feeling that I was betrayed and lied to. I miss the sense of community I felt in the wards I lived and served in, and I especially feel the gulf between me and my friends and family who are still believers. And I can even relate to Quinn's comments about the temple. Since leaving I've realized that I'm in the minority here, but I felt the peace of believing that I was in God's house, serving Him and the women who had passed on. I understand now that these were feelings created by my faith and devotion, not intrinsic to the building or ceremony. Nevertheless, I liked the feeling of going to a special place and seeking God there.

All of these aspects of the LDS church are positive, in my mind. My years in the church were not unremitting misery. But neither are these experiences unique to Mo'ism in any way. One of the more negative attributes of the LDS church, I believe, is the exclusivity it promotes: that we are special, unique, saved. There is a certain emotional and psychological appeal to that as well, but it comes with a price: we can't know our WHOLE selves, noble and selfish, angry and joyous. I remember distinctly leaving this "chosen" belief behind [I was raised on the Saturday's Warrior idea in the '70's]; realizing that I am no better or worse than anyone else. We're all in this together.

I think that the need for community, which had been met in large part by the LDS church, is the reason behind the success of the post-mormon community and this bulletin board. We need each other.

[Born Free]

It appears to me that me that Quinn remains a believer, as he calls it, because he fears what he sees as the only alternative – sadness, anger, loneliness.

From the article: “sadness is a common denominator in all accounts I have encountered by former believers in Mormonism or in one of its prophets. They have lost confidence, enthusiasm, trust, happiness, and a sense of belonging that at one time seemed the center of their lives. Anger is the next most common emotion”

His statement is true to a degree but he left out an entire segment of former Mormons who are finding happiness, contentment, peace, security, trust and a sense of belonging. Hmmmm.... I wonder who that would be :rolleyes:? I think the same fears keep many doubting Mormons in the Church. I’d hate to have to deal with the compartmentalization and cognitive dissonance that Quinn and others force themselves to endure.

Jeff

Jeff,

This example furthers my case, raised recently, for improving the visibility of the existence and joy of Post-Mo Spirituality and Existence.

Daryl

[noodle]

Whoa...I'm a bit surprized by Quinn's continued belief. I have one of his books, and have followed his writings off and on over the years. Ah, the power of belief systems....wonder if scientists will someday discover a "belief" gene vs a "skeptic" gene?

You know, it would be interesting to know how many BYU profs have been ex'd over the years. Does anybody have a clue?

mamajama

[Jeff_Ricks]

Whoa...I'm a bit surprized by Quinn's continued belief. I have one of his books, and have followed his writings off and on over the years. Ah, the power of belief systems....wonder if scientists will someday discover a "belief" gene vs a "skeptic" gene?

You know, it would be interesting to know how many BYU profs have been ex'd over the years. Does anybody have a clue?

mamajama


Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!! I love your avatar Mamajama!

Jeff

[noodle]

Thanks, Jeff. It suits me well.

[free thinker]

I actually think Dr. Quinn's affirmation of belief is a challenge to the church. He did not want to forfeit his membership, but knew he was doing things that would ultimately lead to his excommunication. To me, what he is doing is creating a real tarbaby for the church, and I think he is aware of it. This is a very intelligent man.

The church must somehow deal with a man who has openend it's history. In the details, are facts that have led many to believe the church is a fraud. ( I am one) . So the church has a fellow soldier. An intelligent man who has peeled back it's veneer to show terrible things, and yet he remains faithful, even after the ultimate insult of excommunication. What do they do with someone like this? They cannot say. " See, here is a man who has the most intimate knowledge of the church at it's historical worst, and yet he remains a believer". They cannot do this, because they don't approve of his lifestyle. I think he knows this bothers them, and that is why he does it. It is the ultimate revenge!! ;)

Also I think he is a cultural mormon. It is just too much of his life, family, etc. for him to walk away from. I would put Todd Compton and Grant Palmer in this same category. Yet I think it is interesting that they are compelled to tell the truth. As if to say, " I dont buy it, but I like the good parts, and it is too much of my heritage to walk away from" .



Free Thinker

[silverfox]

I actually think Dr. Quinns affirmation of beleif is a challenge to the church. He did not want to forfeit his membership, but knew he was doing things that would ultimately lead to his excommunication. To me, what he is doing is creating a real tarbaby for mormonism, and I think he is aware of it. This is a very intelligent man.

The church must somehow deal with a man who has openend it's history. In the details are facts that have led many to believe the church is a fraud. ( I am one) . So the church has a fellow soldier. Yet this is also a man who is an avowed homosexual, who is not interested in divesting himself from his true sexuality. ( In this I applaud him). So the church is forced to accept as a friend the ultimate friend. An intelligent man who has peeled back it's veneer to show terrible things, and yet he remains faithful, even after the ultimate insult of excommunication. What do they do with someone like this? They cannot say. " See, here is a man who has the most intimate knowledge of the church at it's historical worst, and yet he remains a believer". They cannot do this because his is a homosexual!! I think he knows this bothers them, and that is why he does it. It is the ultimate revenge!! ;)

Even if the above is not true, I am sure The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is not the kingdom of God on earth. I am much happier now that I know it. I don't let anyone do my thinking for me!!

Free Thinker

I like your analysis. Quinn has never been apologetic really to any Post Mo or Ex Mo group from what I've read. He has always seemed to maintain his own boundaries, not getting caught up publicly in the angst and anger. This must drive the suits nuts. They expect all exmos and postmos to be against them.

I respect anyone's ability to remain loyal to the church and still believe in the good of it knowing much of it is false. To me it appears they view it as any other religion and can participate and partake of what works for them, what they feel strengthens them.

However, with Quinn he doesn't seem fullfilled. And there is not enough info to analyze why, IMO. It shows that again, leaving the church or coming face to face with your nonbelief of it is very personal and unique for each person.