Hey Therapists!! When a marriage is based on religion......

[silverfox]

For the therapists out there..........

How does a nonbeliever deal with the conditions of being married to a TBM? Especially when the TBM is very conditional and filled with hate and disrespect for anyone who will not be controlled?

I am saddened by so many cases where the TBM spouse places ultimatims in the marraige....You WILL be active or that's it. Why should they get the corner on ultimatimx? How does an apostate present their own ultimatims and conditions? We all know as being TBM at one time in our lives how easy it is to be the unwavering TBM spouse. But what next when we find ourselves on the "other side"?

How do you influence your TBM spouse to recognize the qualities in the marriage. And is a marriage worth saving if you have to pretend you believe or pretend you are something you are not?

I ask these questions on behalf of the many marriages on the verge of failing due to religion. I was in this position not long ago myself. Only I got to presenting the ultimatim first. Either I am respected and loved for the wonderful giving happy woman :p I am or you are outta here, buddy. Luckily we both realized and grasped the wonderful things about our relationship, took religion out of the equation and built on what we do have. And our marriage after 11 years is better than ever.

I know I was lucky.

[Born Free]

For the therapists out there..........

How does a nonbeliever deal with the conditions of being married to a TBM? Especially when the TBM is very conditional and filled with hate and disrespect for anyone who will not be controlled?

I am saddened by so many cases where the TBM spouse places ultimatims in the marraige....You WILL be active or that's it. Why should they get the corner on ultimatimx? How does an apostate present their own ultimatims and conditions? We all know as being TBM at one time in our lives how easy it is to be the unwavering TBM spouse. But what next when we find ourselves on the "other side"?

How do you influence your TBM spouse to recognize the qualities in the marriage. And is a marriage worth saving if you have to pretend you believe or pretend you are something you are not?

I ask these questions on behalf of the many marriages on the verge of failing due to religion. I was in this position not long ago myself. Only I got to presenting the ultimatim first. Either I am respected and loved for the wonderful giving happy woman :p I am or you are outta here, buddy. Luckily we both realized and grasped the wonderful things about our relationship, took religion out of the equation and built on what we do have. And our marriage after 11 years is better than ever.

I know I was lucky.

Silverfox,

My suggestion would be to identify the values you share beyond (and maybe even within) the religion. Even religion is just a cluster of particular values.

When you can both see that it is the values and the way you view the world that is what this is about, and not the religion, then there is more chance of a meeting of the minds. See what you share, and enjoying living on and working towards those together, and see and respect those that are different, and support the other in the pursuit of those values.

I can send you something that may assist!

Daryl

[silverfox]

Silverfox,

My suggestion would be to identify the values you share beyond (and maybe even within) the religion. Even religion is just a cluster of particular values.

When you can both see that it is the values and the way you view the world that is what this is about, and not the religion, then there is more chance of a meeting of the minds. See what you share, and enjoying living on and working towards those together, and see and respect those that are different, and support the other in the pursuit of those values.

I can send you something that may assist!

Daryl

I wanted to start a thread on this as I know there are a few members of the board as well as lurkers who are struggling with this. I think any links you can share may be helpful.

What do you do when a spouse won't "give"....no compromise is even considered? In my personal experience it's been about compromise. That has saved our marriage on many occassions with different scenarios.

The self esteem takes a hard hit to find out a spouse is not in the marriage for anything other than religious matters. But I'm not a therapists. As a former TBM I understand the conditions placed on a LDS marriage. But as a former member looking in I see how very limited a marriage can be when there are boundaries surrounding mutual respect, compromise, etc. sigh.

[Born Free]

I wanted to start a thread on this as I know there are a few members of the board as well as lurkers who are struggling with this. I think any links you can share may be helpful.

What do you do when a spouse won't "give"....no compromise is even considered? In my personal experience it's been about compromise. That has saved our marriage on many occassions with different scenarios.

The self esteem takes a hard hit to find out a spouse is not in the marriage for anything other than religious matters. But I'm not a therapists. As a former TBM I understand the conditions placed on a LDS marriage. But as a former member looking in I see how very limited a marriage can be when there are boundaries surrounding mutual respect, compromise, etc. sigh.

Silverfox,

May I suggest that up front, can you countenance the idea that the disparity of commitment to basics like respect and give and take, might at some point make a marriage unworkable?

That can be a scary thought, I well appreciate, but if you cannot entertain that possibility, then your capacity to entertain other ideas that might appear to get close to that, will be perceived as too threatening, and therefore more than likely be rejected out of hand.

Once you have clearly sighted that possibility, then your thinking will be a lot sharper in considering the related matters.

What are the elements of a viable relationship, from your perspective? What are your needs? (by contrast with wants, that can get a long list when the needs go unmet!)

How does your spouses appear to differ? Can you discuss your take on that with him, working on the assumption that you may be seeing some issues with one eye closed, and that your partner MAY be trying to compromise in ways that you do not see or appreciate?

We are all guilty at times of only seeing and valuing bahaviour as loving or considerate, when it meets our expectations. Like..... I will feel loved, respected and appreciated when you do those things in my way, in the way I would do them. Your way of showing those things is invalid. (Needless to say, 2 people holding that mindset can squeeze the juice out of a good relationship pretty fast!)

Can you give an example of an area where you feel compromise was not forthcoming?

Does any of that have any utility?

[silverfox]

Silverfox,

May I suggest that up front, can you countenance the idea that the disparity of commitment to basics like respect and give and take, might at some point make a marriage unworkable?

That can be a scary thought, I well appreciate, but if you cannot entertain that possibility, then your capacity to entertain other ideas that might appear to get close to that, will be perceived as too threatening, and therefore more than likely be rejected out of hand.

Once you have clearly sighted that possibility, then your thinking will be a lot sharper in considering the related matters.

What are the elements of a viable relationship, from your perspective? What are your needs? (by contrast with wants, that can get a long list when the needs go unmet!)

How does your spouses appear to differ? Can you discuss your take on that with him, working on the assumption that you may be seeing some issues with one eye closed, and that your partner MAY be trying to compromise in ways that you do not see or appreciate?

We are all guilty at times of only seeing and valuing bahaviour as loving or considerate, when it meets our expectations. Like..... I will feel loved, respected and appreciated when you do those things in my way, in the way I would do them. Your way of showing those things is invalid. (Needless to say, 2 people holding that mindset can squeeze the juice out of a good relationship pretty fast!)

Can you give an example of an area where you feel compromise was not forthcoming?

Does any of that have any utility?

What about a TBM spouse who is carefully spying on their nonbelieving spouse - monitoring their internet activity....watching for any books they might be reading...VERY CONDITIONAL.

How to get a TBM spouse like this to take religion out of the equation and place value on what is left, if there is anything left?

How does a nonbelieving spouse deal with the guilt from the theory "but what IF the church is true and I've split up my family becuase I refused to attend church".

What if a TBM spouse demands that a nonbelieving spouse comply or else?

This takes place all the time. There is so much more to relationships than RELIGION. How do you open up a TBM eyes (and mind) to value all other aspects?

Questions, questions. Thinking out loud on behalf of so many who are in the situation.

[Born Free]

What about a TBM spouse who is carefully spying on their nonbelieving spouse - monitoring their internet activity....watching for any books they might be reading...VERY CONDITIONAL.

How to get a TBM spouse like this to take religion out of the equation and place value on what is left, if there is anything left?

How does a nonbelieving spouse deal with the guilt from the theory "but what IF the church is true and I've split up my family becuase I refused to attend church".

What if a TBM spouse demands that a nonbelieving spouse comply or else?

This takes place all the time. There is so much more to relationships than RELIGION. How do you open up a TBM eyes (and mind) to value all other aspects?

Questions, questions. Thinking out loud on behalf of so many who are in the situation.

Silverfox,

What you describe here is less about religion and more about more toxic and problematic things IMO.

Let me ask a clarifying question. Would the problems in this marriage go away if she went back to Church? I think not!

My guesstimate is that religion issues are just a smoke cover - the presenting issue that masks much more deep and serious problems in the relationship. The behaviours your quote are symptomatic of serious issues, and ones that I would suggest they need serious professional help with. In addition to the marriage needing help, I would suggest that the woman involved get one-on-one help. What you describe has a strong flavour and many of the elements of an abusive relationship about it, and if that is the case, the woman and the relationship are in urgent need of more than this site can hope to provide.

Sadly, as is so often the case, several serious issues get to overlap and compound each other in examples like this. It is a major task to untangle them and support a client to arrive at a point of clarity.

You know I deal with separated men all the time, and sometimes people just repeat old and dysfunctional patterns, even when they know they are not working, until it is too late, and the relationship is lost or hovering on a precipice. The more fearful people become, the more they freeze and more controlling they become. They engage new information less and integrate it poorly. The more stressed they become, the more narrow, and driven their thinking.

All that is compounded if there is some organic problem as well.

No one can really "do a guilt number' on us, unless we are in some way receptive to the process; unless we have a guilty button hanging out ready to be pressed. So getting beyond being guilt-manipulated is as much about the inside as what is going on out there. Again that is an area where professional assistance is most helpful, as we are all limited by our prior experience. If we came from a family that 'did guilt" then we are a ripe candidate for this number to work on us, until we have unlearned the toxic behaviour/thinking.

Daryl

[nikki]

Silverfox,

What you describe here is less about religion and more about more toxic and problematic things IMO.

Let me ask a clarifying question. Would the problems in this marriage go away if she went back to Church? I think not!

My guesstimate is that religion issues are just a smoke cover - the presenting issue that masks much more deep and serious problems in the relationship. The behaviours your quote are symptomatic of serious issues, and ones that I would suggest they need serious professional help with. In addition to the marriage needing help, I would suggest that the woman involved get one-on-one help. What you describe has a strong flavour and many of the elements of an abusive relationship about it, and if that is the case, the woman and the relationship are in urgent need of more than this site can hope to provide.

Sadly, as is so often the case, several serious issues get to overlap and compound each other in examples like this. It is a major task to untangle them and support a client to arrive at a point of clarity.

You know I deal with separated men all the time, and sometimes people just repeat old and dysfunctional patterns, even when they know they are not working, until it is too late, and the relationship is lost or hovering on a precipice. The more fearful people become, the more they freeze and more controlling they become. They engage new information less and integrate it poorly. The more stressed they become, the more narrow, and driven their thinking.

All that is compounded if there is some organic problem as well.

No one can really "do a guilt number' on us, unless we are in some way receptive to the process; unless we have a guilty button hanging out ready to be pressed. So getting beyond being guilt-manipulated is as much about the inside as what is going on out there. Again that is an area where professional assistance is most helpful, as we are all limited by our prior experience. If we came from a family that 'did guilt" then we are a ripe candidate for this number to work on us, until we have unlearned the toxic behaviour/thinking.

Daryl

I would have to agree if a spouse is looking to see what ex-mo sites their spouse is going into, that is getting pretty controlling.

It might be true that one must be a participant in the 'guilt mode", however people trapped in this type of relationship, may not realize they have the ability not to feel or accept unnecessary or wrongful guilt. That needs some education, counseling, and often in the beginning 'validation' from someone else saying it is o.k. to feel, or do, or not do, what the other party may be wishing done.

Marriage does at times have area's were compromise is needed, no one partner should have their way on all issues. Marital partners need to respect each other. After all isn't that the part of loving a person, and sometimes learn to agree to disagree. When marital partners cannot work in these area's together, there are problems.

There are many dynamics which come into play with marital relationships, church belief can complicate the issue. You are correct there would be underlying problems in the marriage, church would be at the surface and sometimes at the base of the problem also.

The conditioning members go through as they grow up in the church can lay the foundation to marital discord. Devotion to church, church callings does not give one the skills for building and developing good marital or family relationships, not matter how much the church states they believes in family values, or the martial partner states their belief that 'the church' is true. The belief is not a marital skill.

After all, I think my quote at the bottom is the best advise one can give :D

Oh, I did not translate the bottom quote, but woman can be also substituted for man! ( and that is a coded message to someone (!), but no one hear on the board).

For the board members who have been able to maintain their marriages as they made a transition from Mormonism to Non-Moromon. Treasure your relationships, people tear the lives of their families up, for reasons, which in looking in the long perspective, are not rational.

[Born Free]

Silverfox,

I just discovered in a Bob McCue paper, the stat that when one partner from a Mo family leaves the Church, there is an 80% chance that the marriage will end in divorce. He said:

"I recently became aware of an unpublished master's
degree thesis in anthropology at a Canadian university that surveyed LDS returned missionaries who had gone through something similar to what I have, and found an 80% divorce rate. That does not surprise me given my recent experience."

Daryl

[helemon]

For the therapists out there..........

How does a nonbeliever deal with the conditions of being married to a TBM? Especially when the TBM is very conditional and filled with hate and disrespect for anyone who will not be controlled?

I am saddened by so many cases where the TBM spouse places ultimatims in the marraige....You WILL be active or that's it. Why should they get the corner on ultimatimx? How does an apostate present their own ultimatims and conditions? We all know as being TBM at one time in our lives how easy it is to be the unwavering TBM spouse. But what next when we find ourselves on the "other side"?



I think we underestimate how critical the beleiving spouse views the marriage to their eternal salvation. Since Mormons teach that eternal marriage is the only way to achieve the highest glory, when one spouse stops believing in the church it threatens the eternal salvation of the TBM spouse. This can be very scary and very threatening. Why would the TBM want to tie themselves to someone who does not want to go to the highest degree of glory? Will staying married to such a person cause them to loose faith and thus fail to achieve the CK? Furthermore, Mormonism teaches that if they do not make it to the CK they will be eternally castrated and cut off from their family. :eek: So it is easy to see how when faced with a disbelieving spouse the TBM spouse could feel very threatened and try to force the apostate spouse to either shape up or ship out. I think as long as the believing spouse holds onto these fears there will be tension in the marriage.

[fh451]

I think we underestimate how critical the beleiving spouse views the marriage to their eternal salvation. Since Mormons teach that eternal marriage is the only way to achieve the highest glory, when one spouse stops believing in the church it threatens the eternal salvation of the TBM spouse. This can be very scary and very threatening. Why would the TBM want to tie themselves to someone who does not want to go to the highest degree of glory?
And from the other side of the fence, why would I want to stay with someone who basically views me as a short-term solution, and will find some other worthy mate to take her to the celestial kingdom in the afterlife? This is the situation I face. While I have not been given an ultimatum, and I think we've come to some reasonable compromises, this is what I was told. DW sees my value in taking care of the family, and I'm a pretty decent guy to hang around now, but she'll get someone else in the afterlife to take her to celestial glory. Now, I don't believe any such thing will really happen, but I feel like the mindset that she will get someone else later is rather demeaning to me, and I think influences her attitude about our marriage. I'm not sure what to do about it (if anything).

fh451