Coalescence Or Illusion?

[vixenz]

What is prominent, what reality do we endorse that effectually fulfills our inherant desire for acceptance and recognition? What energy reaches from our unbridled, impassioned subconscious being outward to instinctively coalesce with energy exuding unceasingly from surrounding entities? Does there exist transcendental purpose to ego, or is it but a hallucination psychologically ingrained meant only for evolutional aspiration?

Once ego comprehends dogma is illusory, fabricated to secure emotion from insufferable trauma, the mind grasps for answers which, veiled by inadequate mortal perceptions, is unable to determine an infallible foundation. No matter the accomplishments one is able to acheive, no matter the interactions intertwining individuals, there always looms the possibility that the thing we call 'soul' is but a physical attribute of our being.

[helemon]

http://www.edge.org/q2006/q06_6.html#andersona
We've probable fallen for disembodied brains because of the academic tendency to worship abstract thought. If we take a more democratic view of the whole brain we'd find far more of it being used for planning and controlling movement than for cogitation. Sports writers get it right when they describe stars of football or baseball as "geniuses"! Their genius requires massive brain power and a superb body, which is perhaps one better than Einstein.

The "brain-body" view is dangerous because it requires many scientists to change the way they think: it allows back common sense interactions between brain and body that medical science feels uncomfortable with, makes more sense of feelings like falling in love and requires a different approach for people who are trying to create machines with human-like intelligence. And if this all sounds like mere assertion, there's plenty of interesting research out there to back it up.

[helemon]

http://www.edge.org/q2006/q06_3.html#provine
The empirically testable idea that the here and now is all there is and that life begins at birth and ends at death is so dangerous that it has cost the lives of millions and threatens the future of civilization. The danger comes not from the idea itself, but from its opponents, those religious leaders and followers who ruthlessly advocate and defend their empirically improbable afterlife and man-in-the-sky cosmological perspectives.

[free thinker]

I think about this stuff every day. I think I am getting closer to what I genuinely believe. Now I just have to hope that my beliefs conform to reality.

ft

[vixenz]

I ran this by one of my friends a little bit ago who in the past has also been a mentor of sorts for me. His reply to me was "who cares?" - The reality is we will never know the answer until fives minutes after we die, if we ever do. Then what? Once we know the answer to everything (if we ever do) what more is there to learn? Do we really want to know everything??? As he said, it's in the hunt, not the capture. Perhaps we are defined in our search.

At times I think I over analyse way too much. So much that it hurts my brain. Right now all I want to do is quit my jobs and go live somewhere warm out in nature with not too many people around and relax. Just be. I wish it were that easy...

[dogzilla]

What is prominent, what reality do we endorse that effectually fulfills our inherant desire for acceptance and recognition? What energy reaches from our unbridled, impassioned subconscious being outward to instinctively coalesce with energy exuding unceasingly from surrounding entities? Does there exist transcendental purpose to ego, or is it but a hallucination psychologically ingrained meant only for evolutional aspiration?

Once ego comprehends dogma is illusory, fabricated to secure emotion from insufferable trauma, the mind grasps for answers which, veiled by inadequate mortal perceptions, is unable to determine an infallible foundation. No matter the accomplishments one is able to acheive, no matter the interactions intertwining individuals, there always looms the possibility that the thing we call 'soul' is but a physical attribute of our being.

I thought I was pretty smart and well-read, but I don't have the slightest clue what you're asking here. If you want to know, do we think we have souls, why don't you just word it that way? "energy exuding unceasingly"? Wouldn't it have been more clear to say "What makes us feel compelled to interact with others?" What the hell is "evolutionary aspiration"? Inhaling an evolution?


:confused:

Would you mind getting out your thesaurus and translating this into language that a 2-year-old could understand? Then I'll come back and answer the question. Talk to me like I'm 2! Evidently, I'm nowhere near as bright as I claim to be.

[peter_mary]

I ran this by one of my friends a little bit ago who in the past has also been a mentor of sorts for me. His reply to me was "who cares?" - The reality is we will never know the answer until fives minutes after we die, if we ever do. Then what? Once we know the answer to everything (if we ever do) what more is there to learn? Do we really want to know everything??? As he said, it's in the hunt, not the capture. Perhaps we are defined in our search.

At times I think I over analyse way too much. So much that it hurts my brain. Right now all I want to do is quit my jobs and go live somewhere warm out in nature with not too many people around and relax. Just be. I wish it were that easy...
Your friend is either wise, or short of enough patience to sort through those words to figure out what the hell you just said!

Holy mackeral, but I feel less smart than dogzilla! Of course, she knew that... :rolleyes:

But assuming your friend is smarter than me, which takes no great stretch of the imagination I assure you, I believe he or she had the right idea. It ultimately doesn't MATTER because we ultimately CANNOT KNOW. So why worry? Have another tequila shot!

It is simply impossible for the ego to look at itself without being influenced by itself. We cannot know our delusions from reality, because we cannot ultimately remove all the layers of ego that informs everything the ego sees. In a sense, there is nothing in the universe more tautologous than the ego, and it simply cannot extract itself from itself long enough or thoroughly enough to land in any sort of objective understanding of ANYTHING, let alone itself.

Now, hopefully that was as hard to comprehend as the original post, and if anyone calls bullshit on me, then I'll simply respond, as vixenz friend did, "who cares?"

:D

Did ya miss me? :D

[Born Free]

Vixenz,

I too found this inpenetrable. On the first pass, and the second pass, and now the third.

I am still unsure on where you were coming from when you asked it, but I will tell you the impression it had on me.

I thought 'This gal appears to be trying too hard to make an impression', and in my case, it had the very opposite effect. I wondered how should I respond. I had got up Why Me's ribs a few times before he got his marching orders, so I was reticent to make a judgement call.

But I guess I summarise my ideal position in the notion, I like my ideas as simple as humanly possible, without pushing them so hard they become simplistic.

YOu can see on the Oaks on Homosexuality thread what I think of people who adopt a 'bulls#it baffles brains' approach. Mormonism was/is full of that for the psueds and dumb fundy diatribes for the fundies.

I value Post-Mo for the honesty and simple respect people show each other. I would like to see you for you, and in that verbal barrage, I got to see nothing of you.

Daryl

[bobcat]

Hmmm... I kindof see where you're coming from here. I see the poetry of what you're saying, even if it didn't come across as an eloquant show of prose. So, I'm going to base my response on what I understand your question (rhetorical or otherwise) to be.

What if our soul is nothing but a self-created and self-contained entity? What if our feelings and emotions and sense of purpose are nothing more than little tricks we've adopted to pass on our genes to the next generation? I'm going to have to adopt your friend's view (who was that, btw, it sounds like something Sam would say after a few beers) : who the hell cares? To me, life IS about the pursuit, not the kill. I've got precious few brain cells to spend on conscious thought as is. I guess I don't see much point in wondering about this kind of thing.

I definately am concerned more with the journey than the destination. In fact, I find the destination to be rather irrelevant. I think of the great economist/philosopher John Stuart Mill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stuart_Mill), one of the great minds of the 19th Century. He was an accomplished writer, philosopher, and thinker by the time he was 20. He co-founded a philsophy journal at age 17. He was what might be called a "thinking machine", dedicated to logical thought, and the promotion of utilitarianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism), a major philsophical and ethical movement of his time. His hope, like the other Utilitarians, was that someday, humanity would achieve a perfection of logic, in which rational thought would be king and we would all live in perfect bliss.

When he suffered a nervous breakdown at age 20, he had this to say (quoting from his autobiography):

Suppose that all your objects in life were realized: that all the changes in institutions and opinions which you are looking forward to, could be completely effected at this very instant: would this be a great joy and happiness to you? And an irrepressible self-consiousness distinctly answered, "No!" At this time, my heart sank within me: the whole foundation on which my life was constructed fell down. All my happiness was to have been found in the continual pursuit of this end. The end had ceased to charm, and how could there ever again be any interest in the means?"

And there you have it: my opinion on the matter. Even if we eventually will know all (regarding the soul, the ego, or anything else), it will probably not be all that exciting. And it's certainly not worth stressing out about right now.

[darkslider]

One of my mentors, Anthony DeMellow, put it best when he said, "It is those who do not know what to do with this life, that are all hot and bothered by what might be happening in the next. Be where you are and live!"

I highly recommend that every person on the planet read his works.

[free thinker]

Good stuff on your blog Topcat. I'm impressed.

Rock on brother! ;)


ft

[helemon]

His hope, like the other Utilitarians, was that someday, humanity would achieve a perfection of logic, in which rational thought would be king and we would all live in perfect bliss.


Interesting idea. Unfortunately it seems like too often it is when we are able to see reality in its raw nakedness that we are the most miserable, and we seem to be the happiest when blissfully unaware of reality. Hense the prolific use of religion, alcohol and mind altering drugs.

[phoenix rising]

What is prominent, what reality do we endorse that effectually fulfills our inherant desire for acceptance and recognition? What energy reaches from our unbridled, impassioned subconscious being outward to instinctively coalesce with energy exuding unceasingly from surrounding entities? Does there exist transcendental purpose to ego, or is it but a hallucination psychologically ingrained meant only for evolutional aspiration?

Once ego comprehends dogma is illusory, fabricated to secure emotion from insufferable trauma, the mind grasps for answers which, veiled by inadequate mortal perceptions, is unable to determine an infallible foundation. No matter the accomplishments one is able to acheive, no matter the interactions intertwining individuals, there always looms the possibility that the thing we call 'soul' is but a physical attribute of our being.


The age old question people ask is just this. What's my purpose. What's thee purpose. Followed by where did I come from and preceded by where am I going after.....
and then come the myriad religious organizations and belief systems to help answer and assuage that which invokes the questions.

What provokes and invokes your questions and curiosity?
A need to know? To know what?
Aaaah, and then we're back full circle to the initial question.

My simple answer is:

what ever you give it baby, whatever you give it.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/lafleury/indiashivacat.jpg

[peter_mary]

The age old question people ask is just this. What's my purpose. What's thee purpose. Followed by where did I come from and preceded by where am I going after.....
and then come the myriad religious organizations and belief systems to help answer and assuage that which invokes the questions.

What provokes and invokes your questions and curiosity?
A need to know? To know what?
Aaaah, and then we're back full circle to the initial question.

My simple answer is:

what ever you give it baby, whatever you give it.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/lafleury/indiashivacat.jpg
You know what's frustrating? I probably dinked around on this site for a YEAR before Helemon finally taught me how to put an image in a post (thanks, amigo! ;) ). And here we have Phoenix Rising with a single post, and already he/she knows how to do this...

By my calculation, 20 years younger than me, and with a cell phone that would put mine to shame.

Sigh...time to get me a cane...

Welcome, Phoenix Rising! :D

[free thinker]

Welcome to postmo.



what ever you give it baby, whatever you give it.



Good Point.


ft

[phoenix rising]

You know what's frustrating? I probably dinked around on this site for a YEAR before Helemon finally taught me how to put an image in a post (thanks, amigo! ;) ). And here we have Phoenix Rising with a single post, and already he/she knows how to do this...

By my calculation, 20 years younger than me, and with a cell phone that would put mine to shame.

Sigh...time to get me a cane...

Welcome, Phoenix Rising! :D


sorry I'm weeks late in catching up with this thread. I got a link to the Peep Stone in my email and remembered, oh yeah, the post mo commune I wrote a little response there. (memory functions are sadly fading.)

About my computer saavy. I'd hate to get any false rumours started that I'm good with message boards and computer stuff. I'm a computer dud. I only have some experience on the View From the Foyer and a yahoo site which doesn't allow for pics so I too dinked around with figuring out how to add pics on this particular site and blew about 30 minutes on that. I'm fast approaching 50 and injured my left knee last summer so although I don't have the cane quite yet I did get some superb tape I've wrapped my knee up in just yesterday; funny you should mention this.

I have been on the foyer for the last year and occasionally lurked over here, about 5 times, but recently did an incredibly long essay on mind programming which I submitted on a thread on the foyer which was somewhat related to the essay and since then it's sort of propelled me into a different phase (for me) in mormonism.

But you all seem like a good gang over here. I also do so enjoy Mike Norton and I see he's over here so I feel at home already. =0)

I'm also incredibly verbose when trying to explain myself through typing so I do try to keep my messages to a minimum, I delete most of them before ever hitting the send button, mercifully. Also, I'd hate to ever give the impression that I know what the heck I'm talking about. Like everyone else I have opinions and ideas but concerning this post topic I've come to discover that there are a lot of things we just can't change or understand and some things can be changed and understood.

it reminds me of the serenity prayer:
grant me the courage to change/understand what I can
the ability to accept what I cannot change and understand
and the wisdom to know the difference.

okay, that was my reworked version on the serenity prayer.

Does there exist transcendental purpose to ego, or is it but a hallucination psychologically ingrained meant only for evolutional aspiration?
Once ego comprehends dogma is illusory, fabricated to secure emotion from insufferable trauma, the mind grasps for answers which, veiled by inadequate mortal perceptions, is unable to determine an infallible foundation. No matter the accomplishments one is able to acheive, no matter the interactions intertwining individuals, there always looms the possibility that the thing we call 'soul' is but a physical attribute of our being.

Is it so relevant to understand if the soul is but a physcal attribute of our being? Is that a sidetrack or diversion/distraction to life? okay, here's why I ask. When looking on mormonism I see so much distractions in their dogma. Distractions about moroni, the bom, heaven, what underwear your wearing, etc., etc., etc. When it seems to me the root basics are about the world in which we eat, sleep and brush our teeth in. In other words, we have to relate in our day to day menial tasks in life and how is **that**. How are we engaging in that. This was really the question that got me headed out the mormon door. I was sidetracked with so much other stuff that the basic abilities were lost. I also see these basic ethical abilities lost on poor old Gordon Hinckley who in my opinion has led a life of unethical behavior under the mormon catch prase of a true church. There is little ethical about his behavior from my perspective. So you see, so much temple stats and commandments and fullfilling those commandments for fear of obedience and sin etc., ad nauseum, is a distraction to the root of daily living.

I would ask you how your daily life is? forget about all the other distracting questions and ideas you are proposing in your post. The may have relevance but what relevance are you giving them and is it really important to your daily life?
It reminds me of an asian proverb about an ole man who explains how he questions life as he goes about his daily job of chopping wood and fetching water. Then he becomes "enlightened" or understands and has no more need to question. Now that he understands whatever it was he was questioning about life he still, chops wood and fetches water.

It sounds like you're seeking a purpose or trying to understand your purpose but it seems to me that it's not really about purpose at all. I see that as only a distraction.

I look at Hinckley who has a grand purpose in the eyes of the mormon community but how is he *going about* that purpose. What is his ethics and integrity level when implementing that purpose? It seems to me no better or worse than a common criminal. No, I don't live inside hinckleys head and can't judge him to a great degree but I do live inside my own head and am a bi-product of his *goings ons - his purpose and implementation of such* as am I a bi-product of Smiths so I can discern and judge a great deal based on that.

So when it comes down to it you're here on earth as a human, chopping wood and fetching water like everyone else. Whatever that entails for you. How do you go about that? That's what causes suffering, not what's going on, as in what your doing/purpose/whether or not you have a soul etc, but how your going about what it is your doing and that can be created regardless of what kind of purpose or life job your about. That's what revolves around the illusory dogma. The aspect of disecting whether or not there is a soul and whether it's function is associated with body, real, illusory or whatever, what does that matter really? If it is illusory then why does it matter? I'd bet that's what your really asking. Not necessarily what's the what with illusion, soul, etc., etc., and what are the answers but why does it matter? That's what underlies the root of most of these sort of questions.
But it would likely serve you to figure out what your really asking. Otherwise you will end up with a wild goose chase distracting or dispensing energy. And if it really doesn't matter then you are still stuck back with doing your daily chores, whatever they may be, and, those inevitably involve interaction. Weather or not Hinckley's soul is a part of his body or whatever question may arise would also do him little good on his deathbed if he ever takes the Flatliner route (if you've watched the movie Flatliner you'll know what I mean.) He talks about truth but has no comprehension about how to live that truth while, chopping wood and fetching water (doing his life chores which in his case involve influencing a few million people.)

Are your questions important to your daily life or are they distractions? And what are they distracting you from? Accepting the pain and suffering that the dogma or illusory nature involves? Resolving the mysery or suffering? Knowing or understanding the difference?

these topics of philosophy can be productive but more often then not I see them as only assisting one to spin their wheels of distractions without really having much of a productive life changing effect. And, that is rather a waste since most of these philosophical questions are done with the intent and purpose to discover some life changing effects. so many of these spiritual/philosophical debates and questions are a wild goose chase. You can draw your parrallels and comparisons from mormonism to many other philosophical realms such as the one your now undertaking.

Well, I'm off, I've got to pay some bills and.... fetch my water. I hope you find the answers you're looking for and the peace you need to live this life.

(I warned you I'm verbose).