Joseph Smith blunders

[tjohnson]

I would like to start a new thread dealing with all the blunders and mistakes made by Joseph Smith... something that could be used to get current members thinking "wow... really?"

(1) He was married to 11 women who were married to other men. He was also married to multiple women BEFORE the revelation of plural marriage.

(2) He translated much of the Book of Mormon without the plates even in the same room. Often they were "buried in the woods" while he was dictating to his scribe.

(3) On April 6, 1830 the church was formed. That same day Joseph and Oliver ordained each other elders having been "called of God" while praying. In 1834, Joseph's story changed to "The angel of God came down clothed in glory, and delivered the anxiously looked for message, and the keys of the Gospel of repentance"

(4) The starting of a bank and lying about the amount of money contained within the bank.

(5) Running for President of the United States.

(6) Being put in jail not for religious reasons, but rather for ordering the destruction of the printing press that was not favorable to Joseph or the church.

(7) "God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."

This is just a start. Let's see what kind of a list (without quoting his ENTIRE life :D) we can come up with.

[silverfox]

I would like to start a new thread dealing with all the blunders and mistakes made by Joseph Smith... something that could be used to get current members thinking "wow... really?"

(1) He was married to 11 women who were married to other men. He was also married to multiple women BEFORE the revelation of plural marriage.

(2) He translated much of the Book of Mormon without the plates even in the same room. Often they were "buried in the woods" while he was dictating to his scribe.

(3) On April 6, 1830 the church was formed. That same day Joseph and Oliver ordained each other elders having been "called of God" while praying. In 1834, Joseph's story changed to "The angel of God came down clothed in glory, and delivered the anxiously looked for message, and the keys of the Gospel of repentance"

(4) The starting of a bank and lying about the amount of money contained within the bank.

(5) Running for President of the United States.

(6) Being put in jail not for religious reasons, but rather for ordering the destruction of the printing press that was not favorable to Joseph or the church.

(7) "God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."

This is just a start. Let's see what kind of a list (without quoting his ENTIRE life :D) we can come up with.

I saw a book at the library yesterday called "500 Little Known Facts About Mormonism". I thumbed through it and it had tidbits here and there...oddball ones. It appeared to be supportive of the church but I am sure there are some things in there that would be fitting for this thread.

[free thinker]

1 He lied to his wife about his extramarital affairs.

2 He lied to the members of the church about his extramarital affairs.

3 He carried on treasonous behavior as he had himself elected as a king.The "council of fifty affair". I am led to beleive that he actually sent emmissaries to foreign nations, to open diplomatic ties.

4 Before Carthage, he headed west with Hyrum his brother, and O. Porter Rockwell, leaving the church members behind to fend for themselves. Only a letter from Emma, reminding him of promises he made to the saints, to " stick to them, if they would stick to him" brought him back. This was a cowardly action.

5 He told young women that if they didn't marry him, they would ultimately be closed out from the Kingdom of God.

5 He claimed the Pearl of Great Price was a translation from ancient papyrus. It was a complete fraud. More lying!!

6 He took much of the Book of Mormon from an extant text " View of the Hebrews" claimed it as his own, or a translation of ancient plates. More fraud and deception.

7 Engaged in bank fraud as before noted. More fraud and lying!!

8 Created a temple ceremony, wich encouraged members to take their own lives before revealing it's ceremony. Manipulation designed to create fear, and a closed society. Borrowed much of it from Masonry! Said they had a corrupt version of ceremony performed in Solomons Temple. More deception!! Duping uninformed individuals.

9 Lived on the largess of hard working men and women who revered him as a prophet. Priestcraft!!

10 Did all the above in the name of God!! :mad:

[peter_mary]

I would like to start a new thread dealing with all the blunders and mistakes made by Joseph Smith... something that could be used to get current members thinking "wow... really?"



The issues of Joseph's life that are of particular interest to me personally are the places in which Joseph, smart as he no doubt was, miscalculated the future implications of his actions. The reason these are so important in my mind is that they create genuine conundrums for the Church to resolve, and which really never can be satisfactorally resolved (as many of us can attest to! :) )These are the ones that come to mind.

1) Claiming the historical accuracy of the BoM. This miscalculation failed to recognize the future of new world archeology. The BoM is replete with problems and conundrums that have been explored in detail in countless books and essays, but the bottom line, there is NO historical evidence what so ever (can I be more clear on that? Let me try it this way: THERE IS NO HISTORICAL EVIDENCE WHAT SO EVER) that supports the geography of the Book of Mormon.

2) Claiming that he found the plates in the hill Cumorah as mentioned in the BoM. This miscalculation is in fact related to the first, but warrents special attention. To me, this claim, coupled with the fascination of Joseph and many people of his era, points to the recognition that when Joseph was writing the history of the Lamanites and Nephites, the native people he was writing about were the Indians of North America, not South and Central America. I believe completely that he intended the hill Cumorah in which he claimed to have found the plates to have been the same one spoken of in the Book of Mormon. The "2 Hill Cumorah's Theory" is a desperate attempt to resolve this problem, because there is no "narrow neck of land" which divides the sea anywhere near upstate New York. So we have the necessity of assuming South and Central American locations for Book of Mormon geography, but the plates end up thousands of miles North. I suppose angels can do whatever they want...

3) You've already mentioned the Kirtland Anti-Banking Society fiasco. Gigantic miscalculation. Where was the inspiration of God in all of that?

4) Claiming he could translate ANY hieroglyphs. This miscalculation made the unfortunate assumption that no one would EVER figure out how to interpret Egyptian hieroglyphs, and so he translated with abandon the funerary scrolls of some common mummies and made ridiculous claims...claims that were later canonized into scripture. The Book of Abraham was an enormous miscalculation that has resulted in enormous quantities of apologetic energy spent trying to rationalize it and make it work.

5) Trusting John C. Bennett. This miscalculation was massive in demonstrating that Joseph was operating from his own sensibilities, rather than divinely inspired to lead God's restored Church. Bennett was called by Joseph (and therefore by God) into the inner circle, and was ultimately key in revealing the practice of polygamy and the destruction of Nauvoo. (Note: In my mind, this is also akin to the modern day Prophets and apostles being sucked in by the Mark Hoffman's of the world. Where is the inspiration of God in leading and guiding the affairs of His Church, if He can't even keep his appointed leaders from doing really stupid, dangerous things?)

6) Believing he was above the law. This miscalculation cost him numerous times, but most notably it cost him his life. Ordering the destruction of a printing press was a miscalculation of massive proportion, and fired up the state of Illinois to the point of murder.

7) Allowing his "prophetic calling" to rationalize his sexual appetites. This is a common miscalculation of powerful and charismatic leaders. Like many cult leaders before and after him, once he realized the depth of the veneration his people had for him, and the extent of their faith with regard to his prophetic calling, he could see that he could get away with, well, anything! By trying to canonize this "revelation" for plural marriage, he grossly miscalculated the reaction of the nation, and the impact it would have on his Church. Although many would rightly argue that it may have been part of the "glue" that bound the early Church together and helped launch it, the doctrine remains severely problematic to this day. For instance...when this country finally gets around to realizing it can't stop the train of homosexual marriages, that argument could very likely reintroduce the problem of polygamy, and the same arguments for homosexual unions could be used to legitamize polygamous unions. Then what does the Church do? Do they re-embrace "the principle" and chase out massive numbers of current "tithe payers," or do they resist it, and further underscore that it was all nonsense from the beginning?

Anyway, those are the BIGGIES that come to my mind.

Paul

[dragonreborn]

Where did you find out all the info on Joseph Smith? I would love to read it

[peter_mary]

Where did you find out all the info on Joseph Smith? I would love to read it

There's actually quite a library written out there about our man, Joseph, as well as the corner he painted himself and his church into when he made certain claims. Here are just a few to get you started, my friend. I'm including links to Amazon for each one so you can read reviews etc.

"No Man Knows My History," by Fawn Brodie

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679730540/ref=cm_aya_asin.title/002-8228666-5731223?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

"Quest for the Gold Plates: Thomas Stuart Ferguson's Archaeological Search for the Book of Mormon," by Stan Larson

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0963473263/ref=cm_aya_asin.title/002-8228666-5731223?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

"The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power (Mormon Hierarchy)" by D. Michael Quinn

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1560850566/ref=cm_aya_asin.title/002-8228666-5731223?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

"Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith" by Linda King Newell, Valeen Tippetts Avery

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0252062914/ref=cm_aya_asin.title/002-8228666-5731223?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

"Joseph Smith: The First Mormon" by Donna Hill

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/156085118X/ref=cm_aya_asin.title/002-8228666-5731223?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

That should be MORE than enough to fill you in on some of the glaring "gaps" in the average Church members' understanding of the First Prophet.

Happy reading! :)

Paul

[tjohnson]

Where did you find out all the info on Joseph Smith? I would love to read it

Paul didn't mention the website he shared with me a few days ago that also has a great deal of information...

www.josephlied.com

[free thinker]

The issues of Joseph's life that are of particular interest to me personally are the places in which Joseph, smart as he no doubt was, miscalculated the future implications of his actions. The reason these are so important in my mind is that they create genuine conundrums for the Church to resolve, and which really never can be satisfactorally resolved (as many of us can attest to! :) )These are the ones that come to mind.

1) Claiming the historical accuracy of the BoM. This miscalculation failed to recognize the future of new world archeology. The BoM is replete with problems and conundrums that have been explored in detail in countless books and essays, but the bottom line, there is NO historical evidence what so ever (can I be more clear on that? Let me try it this way: THERE IS NO HISTORICAL EVIDENCE WHAT SO EVER) that supports the geography of the Book of Mormon.

2) Claiming that he found the plates in the hill Cumorah as mentioned in the BoM. This miscalculation is in fact related to the first, but warrents special attention. To me, this claim, coupled with the fascination of Joseph and many people of his era, points to the recognition that when Joseph was writing the history of the Lamanites and Nephites, the native people he was writing about were the Indians of North America, not South and Central America. I believe completely that he intended the hill Cumorah in which he claimed to have found the plates to have been the same one spoken of in the Book of Mormon. The "2 Hill Cumorah's Theory" is a desperate attempt to resolve this problem, because there is no "narrow neck of land" which divides the sea anywhere near upstate New York. So we have the necessity of assuming South and Central American locations for Book of Mormon geography, but the plates end up thousands of miles North. I suppose angels can do whatever they want...

3) You've already mentioned the Kirtland Anti-Banking Society fiasco. Gigantic miscalculation. Where was the inspiration of God in all of that?

4) Claiming he could translate ANY hieroglyphs. This miscalculation made the unfortunate assumption that no one would EVER figure out how to interpret Egyptian hieroglyphs, and so he translated with abandon the funerary scrolls of some common mummies and made ridiculous claims...claims that were later canonized into scripture. The Book of Abraham was an enormous miscalculation that has resulted in enormous quantities of apologetic energy spent trying to rationalize it and make it work.

5) Trusting John C. Bennett. This miscalculation was massive in demonstrating that Joseph was operating from his own sensibilities, rather than divinely inspired to lead God's restored Church. Bennett was called by Joseph (and therefore by God) into the inner circle, and was ultimately key in revealing the practice of polygamy and the destruction of Nauvoo. (Note: In my mind, this is also akin to the modern day Prophets and apostles being sucked in by the Mark Hoffman's of the world. Where is the inspiration of God in leading and guiding the affairs of His Church, if He can't even keep his appointed leaders from doing really stupid, dangerous things?)

6) Believing he was above the law. This miscalculation cost him numerous times, but most notably it cost him his life. Ordering the destruction of a printing press was a miscalculation of massive proportion, and fired up the state of Illinois to the point of murder.

7) Allowing his "prophetic calling" to rationalize his sexual appetites. This is a common miscalculation of powerful and charismatic leaders. Like many cult leaders before and after him, once he realized the depth of the veneration his people had for him, and the extent of their faith with regard to his prophetic calling, he could see that he could get away with, well, anything! By trying to canonize this "revelation" for plural marriage, he grossly miscalculated the reaction of the nation, and the impact it would have on his Church. Although many would rightly argue that it may have been part of the "glue" that bound the early Church together and helped launch it, the doctrine remains severely problematic to this day. For instance...when this country finally gets around to realizing it can't stop the train of homosexual marriages, that argument could very likely reintroduce the problem of polygamy, and the same arguments for homosexual unions could be used to legitamize polygamous unions. Then what does the Church do? Do they re-embrace "the principle" and chase out massive numbers of current "tithe payers," or do they resist it, and further underscore that it was all nonsense from the beginning?

Anyway, those are the BIGGIES that come to my mind.

Paul

Now why could'nt I have written it like that? :D

Very well stated!! Very well stated indeed!!

Free Thinker ( The Envious)

[tjohnson]

Ok... I want to continue this thread a little, but maybe move it in a little different direction. :D

I would like to come up with a short "story" about "a man" and list some of the things he did, in very plain English, that could be emailed to friends and neighbors ;), but wouldn't say who it was... something like:

There once was a man that started a bank with no money. He lived a very poor life and decided to write a book of short stories. He published the book and many people loved it. He became very wealthy in many ways. The women loved him after the book became popular. He died at an early age due to his criminal activities.

Who was this person? :rolleyes: