Social hooks MOism uses to control

[Born Free]

The discourse with silverfox re the problems of a wife ready or contemplating departing Mosim, brought infor focus for me the broader issue of the way Moism uses socialization forces to make it harder for people who are ready to walk. Whilst silverfox and I were relating to a woman whose huband was still TBM, a moments thought makes one realize that all sorts of relationship can be made feel threatened by a potential departure, to freeze a person in their tracks.

I would like to throw open for discussion an invitation to lay out the many and varied social connections that are used by the Church and its members to control and induce fear. Off the top of my head they might start with:

Spouse
Children
Parents
Siblings
Extended family
Business and professional associates
Business and professional customers
Business and professional suppliers
Service clubs

In addition you might want to list the positive (if any) and negative forms used to control or punish you. Examples might be:

Slanderous gossip (if you left)
Inconsistent treatment when compared with TBMs.

I am confident that will only be the tip of the iceberg, so add to the list the pressures you felt brought to bear on you, subtly or otherwise.

Daryl

[mutleydog]

I was the only person in my family that was lds and I didn't work with anyone who was either.....however, 'friends' in the church was a huge pressure for me. I was the stake ysa president and so had a lot of association with the ysa not just on a calling level, but also on a social/friendship level. It was the pulling force of my 'friendships' that kept me in the church as long as I could. I hated the thought of losing people I cared about alot and thought I would be letting them all down in someway.....as someone pointed out though (my Mum actually) - its scary but you will know who your friends are if you leave.......I left. Before I moved I had not one phone call - one week I was at church, the next I wasn't......I could have been ill or whatever, but no-one called. I soon learnt who my friends were! I was devastated - I felt completely let down. These are people who professed to love you and be there for you no-matter what - they weren't in my case. I can just imagine the rumours though! That was the one thing that really hurt me. My non-lds friends stood right by me, behind me, in front of me - everywhere......they were as solid as rocks! No-one judged or tried to convince me about what would make me really happy - they were just there for me hoping I would find a way through everything and wishing for my happiness. Incidentally, a couple of my lds friends (one who moved to the states) have been rocks too - and I am grateful for that. They love me for me, not who they or the church want me to be, which is the difference!!

[Free-soil]

I was the only person in my family that was lds and I didn't work with anyone who was either.....however, 'friends' in the church was a huge pressure for me. I was the stake ysa president and so had a lot of association with the ysa not just on a calling level, but also on a social/friendship level. It was the pulling force of my 'friendships' that kept me in the church as long as I could. I hated the thought of losing people I cared about alot and thought I would be letting them all down in someway.....as someone pointed out though (my Mum actually) - its scary but you will know who your friends are if you leave.......I left. Before I moved I had not one phone call - one week I was at church, the next I wasn't......I could have been ill or whatever, but no-one called. I soon learnt who my friends were! I was devastated - I felt completely let down. These are people who professed to love you and be there for you no-matter what - they weren't in my case. I can just imagine the rumours though! That was the one thing that really hurt me. My non-lds friends stood right by me, behind me, in front of me - everywhere......they were as solid as rocks! No-one judged or tried to convince me about what would make me really happy - they were just there for me hoping I would find a way through everything and wishing for my happiness. Incidentally, a couple of my lds friends (one who moved to the states) have been rocks too - and I am grateful for that. They love me for me, not who they or the church want me to be, which is the difference!!

My situation was very similar to your Mutleydog. I was very active in my ward. I was in the RS presidency and on the institute council. Because of those callings I knew my Bishop and CES leader very well. I began talking to my Bishop about my doubts and struggles. There was so much pressure from him...I asked to be released from my callings...but he wouldn't do it. He said that is where we learn the truth...in teaching others. WOW!

I am the over acheiver sort...I didn't want to let people down or not fulfill my respobsibilities, mainy because of the pressure from my bishop to serve. So I kept going and kept serving...all the while my bishop knowing what was going on.

Also, I live in big college town. Most of my college friends were from the church. If I left...i would have a lot of friday nights on my own-which sounds silly-but it was a worry of mine. I knew they would not stink around

When I finally left, that support structure fell...but my other friends were wonderful. It is amazing how the "friends" from my ward still try to hold those social things over my head...

I am amazed that TBMs refuse to think there is any other way to live...and if you aren't living like them well you must be unhappy! The thing is I am happier now than ever! :D

[square_peg]

The discourse with silverfox re the problems of a wife ready or contemplating departing Mosim, brought infor focus for me the broader issue of the way Moism uses socialization forces to make it harder for people who are ready to walk. Whilst silverfox and I were relating to a woman whose huband was still TBM, a moments thought makes one realize that all sorts of relationship can be made feel threatened by a potential departure, to freeze a person in their tracks.

I would like to throw open for discussion an invitation to lay out the many and varied social connections that are used by the Church and its members to control and induce fear. Off the top of my head they might start with:
[INDENT]
Spouse
Children
Parents
Siblings
Extended family

Daryl

As I have thought about this question, the hypocrisy of it all hits me in the face.

When a person chooses to be baptized, despite the protests of a non-LDS family, the person is glorified and NOBLE for going against the family. They are somehow PROVING their worth by sacrificing something as important as the love of their family members. In contrast, when an LDS member "leaves the fold", they are stigmatized and talked about as THE home-wrecker, THE cause of the marital/family breakup, etc. In my experience, the (still-LDS) family members (even extended family members) rarely care to find out anything about the family breaking up. If one person has left the church....ENOUGH SAID...that's the reason that the marriage did not survive.

As a result of this kind of judgment, I believe, that the church induces an enormous amount of fear in its wavering members....who wants to be THE CAUSE of a whole family breaking up? It is one thing for a post-mo to stay out of emotionally abusive or controlling situations with the ex-spouse, but what about the extended family? If "I" leave the church, my children are still going to visit Grandma & Grandpa & Aunt Ruth...who are free to indoctrinate into those impressionable young minds concerning the "REAL" cause of their parents' divorce. Of course, it may be only one opinion, but it is hard for kids to understand that.

So, even if I am at peace with myself and my decision to leave...I am fearful of the MANY factors outside of my own mental control that can have devastating effects on others whom I love... I think the church uses THAT kind of fear induction to deter people from leaving.

[peter_mary]

As I have thought about this question, the hypocrisy of it all hits me in the face.

When a person chooses to be baptized, despite the protests of a non-LDS family, the person is glorified and NOBLE for going against the family. They are somehow PROVING their worth by sacrificing something as important as the love of their family members. In contrast, when an LDS member "leaves the fold", they are stigmatized and talked about as THE home-wrecker, THE cause of the marital/family breakup, etc. In my experience, the (still-LDS) family members (even extended family members) rarely care to find out anything about the family breaking up. If one person has left the church....ENOUGH SAID...that's the reason that the marriage did not survive.



Wow...well said! The hypocrisy on both sides of that issue is glaring when you lay it out like that!

Along those lines, and in answer to Daryl's initial question of "what are the hooks," it also occurs to me that "posterity" and "legacy" need to be included. I know that for us and our friends, the first thing that comes out of the Bishop's mouth when he figures out where we're headed is, "Think of the blessings you are denying generations to come!" Well, aside from "generations of Church members who won't get a dime of my money," I can't really think of any generations that are going to be any too upset with my decision to bail! :)

Paul

[noodle]

When my son left on his LDS mission a few years ago, he received notes of congratulations, and much verbal praise from folks pointing out his "special worthiness," considering his parents were inactive. It was amazing to me that he was viewed as being the only one in the family that obviously "saw the light." All of a sudden folks talked about him to me in an almost worshipful tone. Strange. And speaking of seeing the light, I was told by church members that I should "pray about it" (referring to my non-attendence at church). I told them that I had.
:D

[destructoman]

If the reason you do get divorced is because you left the church, then you should be open and honest with your children. If you have a good relationship with the children it won't matter what others say or do. Worrying about what the families reactions are beyond your control. So why waste time worrying about it. I don't think that this reaction is anyway exclusive to mormonism. I had a friend who left the baptist church and he had the same pressures, social stigmas with family etc.

[Born Free]

I would like to throw open for discussion an invitation to lay out the many and varied social connections that are used by the Church and its members to control and induce fear.

Spouse
Children
Parents
Siblings
Extended family
Business and professional associates
Business and professional customers
Business and professional suppliers
Service clubs
Additions
Friends and acquaintances
Posterity (e.g "Think of the blessings you are denying generations to come!"
Legacy

In addition you might want to list the positive (if any) and negative forms used to control or punish you. Examples might be:

Slanderous gossip (if you left)
Inconsistent treatment when compared
with TBMs.

Additions
Gross oversimplifications of why people left
Labelling - home-wrecker, THE cause of the marital/family breakup, etc.

Other:
Gross disparity between interpretations on people coming in, and people departing
Use of "Temple Worthy" status to include/exclude

[Born Free]

Also, I live in big college town. Most of my college friends were from the church. If I left...i would have a lot of friday nights on my own-which sounds silly-but it was a worry of mine. I knew they would not stink around

When I finally left, that support structure fell...but my other friends were wonderful. It is amazing how the "friends" from my ward still try to hold those social things over my head...

:D

Free-soil,

I only picked this one up when rereading postings to summarize additions to my list!

I too reckon I discovered how many of those so-called 'friendships' were seriously on the nose! :rolleyes:

Daryl

[lsands]

I have posted before about my two older children's temple weddings, and the pain it caused me (and my son) that I could not attend. Getting that recommend so they can be at a wedding keeps a lot of people in line. I've often thought about how the Mormons have a "hook" in the temple recommend that other churches don't have. And your status is so visible, if you're on the outside instead of inside.

The thing is, the church COULD change its policy about weddings if it wanted to. In countries such as Mexico, where all weddings must be performed in public, people are married in a ceremony where all can intend, and then they go to the temple to get sealed later. Since the issue clearly isn't doctrinal, the only answer I can come up with is CONTROL.

Laraine

[mutleydog]

I have posted before about my two older children's temple weddings, and the pain it caused me (and my son) that I could not attend. Getting that recommend so they can be at a wedding keeps a lot of people in line. I've often thought about how the Mormons have a "hook" in the temple recommend that other churches don't have. And your status is so visible, if you're on the outside instead of inside.

The thing is, the church COULD change its policy about weddings if it wanted to. In countries such as Mexico, where all weddings must be performed in public, people are married in a ceremony where all can intend, and then they go to the temple to get sealed later. Since the issue clearly isn't doctrinal, the only answer I can come up with is CONTROL.

Laraine

Mexico is not the only country that has to do that - the UK is the same. I remember finding my Mum in tears one day not long after i joined the church - she was so fearful that she wouldn't be allowed to attend my future (not even planned) wedding.....after I explained about the civil marriage requirement in the UK, she felt so much better. i couldn't imagine putting any of my family/friends through that sort of ordeal. I even promised that whereever I lived I would have a civil service too, so no-one would be excluded. I hate the fact that your status in the church is so visible too.

[noodle]

I just thought of another "hook" used by the missionaries that occurred before I was baptized. I had sister missionaries teach me, and after about 3 lessons, I got the big question...was I ready to be baptized? I was then told something to the effect that now that I had been given "the truth," I would be committing a grievous sin if I declined the baptism. Satan would be working on me! :eek: It sounded like a threat to me, and my husband thought they were nuts. He supported me whether I got baptized or not. He was a BIC Mo, but hadn't been real active for years. Anyway, I proceeded with the baptism :confused: , and the sisters got steak dinners as their reward from the mission president. Serious! And let me tell you, food was the last thing that they needed. :p

[silverfox]

I just thought of another "hook" used by the missionaries that occurred before I was baptized. I had sister missionaries teach me, and after about 3 lessons, I got the big question...was I ready to be baptized? I was then told something to the effect that now that I had been given "the truth," I would be committing a grievous sin if I declined the baptism. Satan would be working on me! :eek: It sounded like a threat to me, and my husband thought they were nuts. He supported me whether I got baptized or not. He was a BIC Mo, but hadn't been real active for years. Anyway, I proceeded with the baptism :confused: , and the sisters got steak dinners as their reward from the mission president. Serious! And let me tell you, food was the last thing that they needed. :p

How could I have forgotten THAT one? I remember well being told by the mishies shortly after beginning discussions that now that I had been "informed" I was accountable. That because the "truth" was placed before me if I didn't accept it I would be held accountable and lose my chance to live in the celestial kingdom.

[noodle]

How could I have forgotten THAT one? I remember well being told by the mishies shortly after beginning discussions that now that I had been "informed" I was accountable. That because the "truth" was placed before me if I didn't accept it I would be held accountable and lose my chance to live in the celestial kingdom.


Wow...I was thinking it was an anomaly, and it was this sister missionary's own interpretation. I guess I was naive as hell.

[mindbender]

I have posted before about my two older children's temple weddings, and the pain it caused me (and my son) that I could not attend. Getting that recommend so they can be at a wedding keeps a lot of people in line. I've often thought about how the Mormons have a "hook" in the temple recommend that other churches don't have. And your status is so visible, if you're on the outside instead of inside.

The thing is, the church COULD change its policy about weddings if it wanted to. In countries such as Mexico, where all weddings must be performed in public, people are married in a ceremony where all can intend, and then they go to the temple to get sealed later. Since the issue clearly isn't doctrinal, the only answer I can come up with is CONTROL.

Larainethis is the same in NZ , wedding must be in public , so there would be a wedding ceromony in the visitors center at the temple , which all people could attend then the temple sealing , recently however the presidency has come out with a lot of new changes concerning temple sealing , for instance no more photos of wedding partys on the steps at the entrance of the temple , people must dress in everyday clothes going in and out of the temple ,i think i have got this partly right from memory