this life or the next?

[ifitmakesuhappy]

I was wonderin if you could give me your opinions...
I have discussed my leaving the church and my being gay with a good TBM friend of mine til the cows come home... and while she assures me that if i would just go back into 'the fold' and keep to my covenants, shes certain i would find a good TBM man who I would find happiness with (she just doesnt get the 'but im gay' thing!), it basically always comes down to me having to choose between this life and the next. If I went bk to the church i may never love or be loved again...i may never find true happiness in life (this one!). If i carry on down this 'road to certain destruction' I could find myself all alone in the next life. Well thats how she tells it anyway. So my question is - What if she's right?? Do i choose the possibility of being sad and alone in this life, so that all the promises of my patriarchal blessing can come true in the next life? Or is God, my Heavenly Father fair and just enough to see that I am living a good life, albiet with my lesbian lover! That I try to be honest and to bring my daughter up to be sympathetic and charitable and accepting of peoples differences. That I go out of my way to help someone out put others before myself constantly...because thats just the person I am...so surely i wouldnt have to settle for a caravan somewhere on the field just behind where my mansion in heaven would have been built, just because I didnt do the celestial marriage thing...would I??? Surely I would still have my child and the people I love around me in the next life. Cos if not I might aswell start living a more selfish life while im here, and no one wants that...but whats the point if im to get nothing???

[silverfox]

I was wonderin if you could give me your opinions...
I have discussed my leaving the church and my being gay with a good TBM friend of mine til the cows come home... and while she assures me that if i would just go back into 'the fold' and keep to my covenants, shes certain i would find a good TBM man who I would find happiness with (she just doesnt get the 'but im gay' thing!), it basically always comes down to me having to choose between this life and the next. If I went bk to the church i may never love or be loved again...i may never find true happiness in life (this one!). If i carry on down this 'road to certain destruction' I could find myself all alone in the next life. Well thats how she tells it anyway. So my question is - What if she's right?? Do i choose the possibility of being sad and alone in this life, so that all the promises of my patriarchal blessing can come true in the next life? Or is God, my Heavenly Father fair and just enough to see that I am living a good life, albiet with my lesbian lover! That I try to be honest and to bring my daughter up to be sympathetic and charitable and accepting of peoples differences. That I go out of my way to help someone out put others before myself constantly...because thats just the person I am...so surely i wouldnt have to settle for a caravan somewhere on the field just behind where my mansion in heaven would have been built, just because I didnt do the celestial marriage thing...would I??? Surely I would still have my child and the people I love around me in the next life. Cos if not I might aswell start living a more selfish life while im here, and no one wants that...but whats the point if im to get nothing???

We get so caught up in not being good enough, not rightreous enough, etc, etc....we constantly have our faults magnified. All the while all the good we do, all the wonderful attributes about us is ingnored and when not validated, wilts.

IMHO, the church pushes unnecessary guilt to get us to comply.

My response to your post - Since when is the CHURCH an expert on Homosexuality? Why do they think they've cornered all the answers regarding it?

Your friend is responding with a typical TBM response and again enforcing that you are not good enough, blah blah blah AND IF ONLY YOU PAY PRAY AND OBEY you will be happy. HOGWASH. How many of us have prayed paid and obeyed until we went nuts and to no avail? We still had our challenges and imperfections and not so perfect lives. I find it unsettling how much attention is drawn to the negative and never to the positive.

You sound like a wonderful human being. So you are gay - embrace it, own it and live life to it's fullest. That's the best advice I can give you. How dare any organization try to tell you otherwise. You are not alone. I firmly believe being gay is not a CHOICE. I've seen too many gay people suffer with some attempting suicide and some succeeding in it. Avoid anything that leads you to such unhappiness. And in your case, IMHO, it's not that you are gay that is causing you unhappiness, it's the church's and your friend's reaction to it.

I hope you find the peace you desire. Don't beat yourself up. Focus on all your wonderful qualities and talents and skills. Don't let anyone NO ONE take that focus from you.

IMO, if there is a GOD and a next life he is going to be alot more worried about more devastating things than if you are gay or not. But that's my opinion. Continue to be a good person, a good mom, love yourself and embrace the opportunities life gives you to live a fullfilling happy peaceful life. Don't let anyone take that from you.

As for your friend...what does she know? Is she gay? Is she in your situation or ever has been? Probably not so again, where do TBMs come off thinking they've got all the knowledge about homosexuality? grrrrrrr

[Free-soil]

I was wonderin if you could give me your opinions...
I have discussed my leaving the church and my being gay with a good TBM friend of mine til the cows come home... and while she assures me that if i would just go back into 'the fold' and keep to my covenants, shes certain i would find a good TBM man who I would find happiness with (she just doesnt get the 'but im gay' thing!), it basically always comes down to me having to choose between this life and the next. If I went bk to the church i may never love or be loved again...i may never find true happiness in life (this one!). If i carry on down this 'road to certain destruction' I could find myself all alone in the next life. Well thats how she tells it anyway. So my question is - What if she's right?? Do i choose the possibility of being sad and alone in this life, so that all the promises of my patriarchal blessing can come true in the next life? Or is God, my Heavenly Father fair and just enough to see that I am living a good life, albiet with my lesbian lover! That I try to be honest and to bring my daughter up to be sympathetic and charitable and accepting of peoples differences. That I go out of my way to help someone out put others before myself constantly...because thats just the person I am...so surely i wouldnt have to settle for a caravan somewhere on the field just behind where my mansion in heaven would have been built, just because I didnt do the celestial marriage thing...would I??? Surely I would still have my child and the people I love around me in the next life. Cos if not I might aswell start living a more selfish life while im here, and no one wants that...but whats the point if im to get nothing???

IIMYH-
When I left the church, I like you did a lot of time soul searching. I weighed this same question. Live for now or live for later...then I realize for me that the Church wasn't true. of course all my TBM friends think I've sold my soul to satan and will spend enternity in "outer darkness"- like silverfox said "HOGWASH!"-

For me it was super important to let the teachings of the church go and to recognize that they no longer applied to my life. This is easier said than done I recognize...but it made the world of difference in my life. I still believe in God and have a spiritual life...on my terms and not the way the mormons tell you to do it. I know my God will not condemn or punish me for the things I do...

The best advice I can give is to find out for you if you still believe those doctrines...your friends and family probably always will. But if you don't believe it...it doesn't apply to you :D that is sheer beauty!

Best of luck to you! I hope you are able to find something to hold on to in your time of trouble!

[shamdiel]

If i carry on down this 'road to certain destruction' I could find myself all alone in the next life. Well thats how she tells it anyway. So my question is - What if she's right?? Do i choose the possibility of being sad and alone in this life, so that all the promises of my patriarchal blessing can come true in the next life? Or is God, my Heavenly Father fair and just enough to see that I am living a good life, albiet with my lesbian lover!
Child; What man, women or organization do you believe can actually tell you what comes after this life? I would rather take my chances in Hell then to submit to a God that can not see inside my heart to the love and goodness that I have and share with others! You won't be the first person consigned to Hell for following your heart and brain and, I am sure, you won't be the last. Besides eternity is a long time. Sooner or later all the bad conditions that are supposed to exist in Hell (I do not believe in the place by the way) will become normal and they wont bother you anymore. All us good people, that have been consigned there by the righteous, can get together and make the place a paradise!!! After all that mean old God won't be there to stop us! There is no way that God could be less compassionate, less forgiving, less understanding, or less loving than any human otherwise we become greater then He. If there are humans here that love you and understand you and accept you then so does your Heavenly Mother. Check it out in your heart; if it fits, wear it and do not let the nay Sayers talk you out of it!!! Be kind to you; John :)

[peter_mary]

I was wonderin if you could give me your opinions...

So my question is - What if she's right?? Do i choose the possibility of being sad and alone in this life, so that all the promises of my patriarchal blessing can come true in the next life? Or is God, my Heavenly Father fair and just enough to see that I am living a good life, albiet with my lesbian lover!

...but whats the point if im to get nothing???

Dang, you're hitting the hard questions...

It sounds to me like you are awash in a sea of conflicting faith issues, and it will no doubt take a long time to sort all of that out in your mind.

You made the error of asking for opinions :D , and as anyone who keeps up with this forum knows, I never lack for an opinion! But it is only that...the opinion of one guy out here just trying to figure it all out same as you! Anyway, here's what I think I see.

It sounds like the traditional Mormon model of the Plan of Salvation is still the governing principle in your spiritual paradigm. That is evident in your thinking regarding a life in the hereafter, with a Father God, and a place designated for you based on your rightious intentions and acts in this life, the judgement of a wise and loving God, and sharing that eternal place with your family. And yet you are conflicted because you find yourself outside the "acceptable" norms for achieving that idyllic outcome.

There comes a point in everyone's exploration, be it a spiritual, philosophical or scientific journey, that we encounter a place from which we cannot know what lies beyond. It is "unknowable." Because that point creates so much dissonance in our lives, we search until we find a model that makes sense to us, appeals to both our sense of morality and our sense of logic (although the whole temple thing fails me in the sense of logic department :rolleyes: ). Bottom line is, no matter what you decide, it is fundamentally a matter of faith...personal faith.

The Mormon church has a model. Period. There are countless Christian sects that offer variations on similar models. They tweak them and re-evaluate them, and they evolve over time, but ultimately they are still models.

Your peace comes in discovering for yourself the model that BRINGS you peace. It will resonate with your sense of morality, your longing for love and acceptance with your partner and your extended family and community, your love of your children, and possibly your love for God, whoever he or she ultimately seems to be to you. That model may come in the form of a "Church home" that lines up with what you know about yourself and what you believe about God, or it may come in the form of a personal world view developed through a course of personal study.

Here's the catch. Actually, there are two catches that come to mind. First, to answer these questions to the real satisfaction of your soul, you have to work...hard. You have to read, you have to explore with others whom you trust, and even at times with those you don't trust just to make sure you aren't missing important bits of information. The discovery of spiritual peace is a quest of sizeable proportion, and if you want real peace, you can't shrink from it. The other catch is simply this...whatever place you arrive at, your comfort there will still only be a matter of faith. You, like everyone else who struggles for ultimate answers, find yourself staring into the infinite night sky, only to find that it is not the face of God you see, but rather just you, reflected in that infinity. What will you see? How will you know? You never will know...but you can believe, and in that believing, there can be peace.

As an aside, it is my personal opinion that one of the great disservices that Joseph Smith committed with his Book of Mormon and the attendant gospel was the suggestion that our goal is not faith, but knowledge (see Alma 32). But to presume knowledge is to presume an infinate comprehension...not something we can actually achieve. So knowledge is in fact not possible, only belief. When the Church, or anyone, would tell you what they know, and that they know not only for themselves, but for you as well, they are really only expressing an opinion regarding their own belief. My highest recommendation to you would be to avoid that trap, and explore for yourself. Put on the boots, strap on the pack, and set your sights on the highest horizon you can see.

That's just my two bits from out here in the peanut gallery, and some might argue, from "outer darkness!"

Paul

[Jeff_Ricks]

I was wonderin if you could give me your opinions...
I have discussed my leaving the church and my being gay with a good TBM friend of mine til the cows come home... and while she assures me that if i would just go back into 'the fold' and keep to my covenants, shes certain i would find a good TBM man who I would find happiness with (she just doesnt get the 'but im gay' thing!), it basically always comes down to me having to choose between this life and the next. If I went bk to the church i may never love or be loved again...i may never find true happiness in life (this one!). If i carry on down this 'road to certain destruction' I could find myself all alone in the next life. Well thats how she tells it anyway. So my question is - What if she's right?? Do i choose the possibility of being sad and alone in this life, so that all the promises of my patriarchal blessing can come true in the next life? Or is God, my Heavenly Father fair and just enough to see that I am living a good life, albiet with my lesbian lover! That I try to be honest and to bring my daughter up to be sympathetic and charitable and accepting of peoples differences. That I go out of my way to help someone out put others before myself constantly...because thats just the person I am...so surely i wouldnt have to settle for a caravan somewhere on the field just behind where my mansion in heaven would have been built, just because I didnt do the celestial marriage thing...would I??? Surely I would still have my child and the people I love around me in the next life. Cos if not I might aswell start living a more selfish life while im here, and no one wants that...but whats the point if im to get nothing???

In my view we are sinning terribly if we put off happiness in this life by betting all our potential happiness on the hopes of an an imagined, hoped for life to come. Who says Mormons, and other religions, don’t gamble? They’re not gambling with mere money, they are gambling with their life, for god sake! So where should we put our money? What’s the safest bet? (That’s always good to consider if you’re into gambling). Here’s how I’ve thought this through as I’ve wrestled with the issue in the past.

Whether you believe in evolution or not the fossil record shows that over time life has been continually changing and evolving in a particular direction. Once we recognize what direction that is then we’ve identified the purpose of life, and once we know the purpose of life we know where we should place our bet! It’s as simple as that as I see it. Are you with me? Let me restate it:

From the beginning of life on this planet until now the forms that life has found itself in have been generally successively more complex than previous generations, and previous species. So then it appears that the purpose of life is to become complex, but that’s not the full story. The complexity that life seems to be forever driving itself toward is to enable life (all living creatures on this planet as a whole) to better interact with and appreciate its environment, including other living creatures. In other words, it appears that the forces that are behind life seem intent on maximizing its capacity to touch and taste and feel and hear and smell and enjoy and love and experience life and all the joys and pleasures that go along with it! So in my view, our purpose in this life is to touch and taste and feel and hear and smell and enjoy, cherish, savor and love life -- this life! To do otherwise frustrates the apparent intent of nature and therefore sins against the purpose of life.

So, in my view, putting off happiness in this life is a sin. In fact it’s perhaps the worst sin there can be because it thwarts the very purposes that life seems to be tirelessly for millions of years moving toward. Of course, we also thwart that purpose when we do things that take away from others enjoyment of life. So bottom line for me is this: The purpose life is to enjoy life to the fullest and help others and all living things to do the same -- period. To bet life’s obvious purpose (obvious to me) on something that at best is an imagined, hope for life after this life is over is even more foolish than betting all your life savings on one shot a winning the lottery.

That’s the basis of my personal philosophy. It brings me peace and contentment.

Jeff

[peter_mary]

In my view we are sinning terribly if we put off happiness in this life by betting all our potential happiness on the hopes of an an imagined, hoped for life to come.

So bottom line for me is this: The purpose life is to enjoy life to the fullest and help others and all living things to do the same -- period. To bet life’s obvious purpose (obvious to me) on something that at best is an imagined, hope for life after this life is over is even more foolish than betting all your life savings on one shot a winning the lottery.

That’s the basis of my personal philosophy. It brings me peace and contentment.

Jeff

I agree with Jeff, which stands in STARK contrast to the position of the Church on this life, which is: It is a test, it is about suffering, and our single objective is to "endure to the end." Enduring is something we do in order to survive that which is not pleasant. We endure war. We endure hardships. We endure poverty. We endure sickness. And apprently, we endure "life." It is a trick of the worst sort, in my opinion, to cause people to see this life as misserable, and promise them that everything will be better "after you die." For me, that's a paradigm that is best left for the buzzards.

Interestingly, when I abandoned that way of thinking, I found myself much more passionately involved in this life, loving my family more completely, spending my time more liberally on the things that matter to me, exploring as much as I could, as fast as I could, with all the abandon of a puppy in a field of dandelions. :)

Paul

[nikki]

Dang, you're hitting the hard questions...

It sounds to me like you are awash in a sea of conflicting faith issues, and it will no doubt take a long time to sort all of that out in your mind.

You made the error of asking for opinions :D , and as anyone who keeps up with this forum knows, I never lack for an opinion! But it is only that...the opinion of one guy out here just trying to figure it all out same as you! Anyway, here's what I think I see.

It sounds like the traditional Mormon model of the Plan of Salvation is still the governing principle in your spiritual paradigm. That is evident in your thinking regarding a life in the hereafter, with a Father God, and a place designated for you based on your rightious intentions and acts in this life, the judgement of a wise and loving God, and sharing that eternal place with your family. And yet you are conflicted because you find yourself outside the "acceptable" norms for achieving that idyllic outcome.

There comes a point in everyone's exploration, be it a spiritual, philosophical or scientific journey, that we encounter a place from which we cannot know what lies beyond. It is "unknowable." Because that point creates so much dissonance in our lives, we search until we find a model that makes sense to us, appeals to both our sense of morality and our sense of logic (although the whole temple thing fails me in the sense of logic department :rolleyes: ). Bottom line is, no matter what you decide, it is fundamentally a matter of faith...personal faith.

The Mormon church has a model. Period. There are countless Christian sects that offer variations on similar models. They tweak them and re-evaluate them, and they evolve over time, but ultimately they are still models.

Your peace comes in discovering for yourself the model that BRINGS you peace. It will resonate with your sense of morality, your longing for love and acceptance with your partner and your extended family and community, your love of your children, and possibly your love for God, whoever he or she ultimately seems to be to you. That model may come in the form of a "Church home" that lines up with what you know about yourself and what you believe about God, or it may come in the form of a personal world view developed through a course of personal study.

Here's the catch. Actually, there are two catches that come to mind. First, to answer these questions to the real satisfaction of your soul, you have to work...hard. You have to read, you have to explore with others whom you trust, and even at times with those you don't trust just to make sure you aren't missing important bits of information. The discovery of spiritual peace is a quest of sizeable proportion, and if you want real peace, you can't shrink from it. The other catch is simply this...whatever place you arrive at, your comfort there will still only be a matter of faith. You, like everyone else who struggles for ultimate answers, find yourself staring into the infinite night sky, only to find that it is not the face of God you see, but rather just you, reflected in that infinity. What will you see? How will you know? You never will know...but you can believe, and in that believing, there can be peace.

As an aside, it is my personal opinion that one of the great disservices that Joseph Smith committed with his Book of Mormon and the attendant gospel was the suggestion that our goal is not faith, but knowledge (see Alma 32). But to presume knowledge is to presume an infinate comprehension...not something we can actually achieve. So knowledge is in fact not possible, only belief. When the Church, or anyone, would tell you what they know, and that they know not only for themselves, but for you as well, they are really only expressing an opinion regarding their own belief. My highest recommendation to you would be to avoid that trap, and explore for yourself. Put on the boots, strap on the pack, and set your sights on the highest horizon you can see.

That's just my two bits from out here in the peanut gallery, and some might argue, from "outer darkness!"

Paul

Since all of us have walked, or are walking on the same path, with different reasons, and experiences leading us on a paths journey, away from the LDS Chruch and beleif system, in this we share a common expereince.

I agree with Paul, finding our way in life takes alot of work, study and with a belief system or not, it takes faith. To quote me "Faith in ourselves, and faith in the future" (from a little venette I wrote once, (ooops!, that will give me away to some! :rolleyes: )

Being a straight person, I cannot tell you I fully understand the conflict you may be feeling, but being in a place in life I do not wish or want to be myself, I can understand you very well. And understanding the decission you are making will upset many you know and your family. You have to find who you are, and make peace in you life.

I know, in making important life decissions, it is very important not to make them when you are emotionally torn, or in a state of conflict. Making no decission during these times, and taking a time to reflect is not always bad.

I do want to you know, I once had the best friend ever was gay, he was by best bud, he was male, and do not think I have ever had a better friend. (I am female and yes, we were just friends). I miss at time the great laughts we had, a good friend.

I am not sure why one would worry about going to hell over Mormon doctrine, the leadership of the church committed many moral sins since from the foundations of the church. False prophets carry a very heavy penalty, from what I have read.

Having people make sacrifices, endure pain and discomfort, are all techniques of cult dynamics.

The church creates good 'mass people' and not 'strong individuals' for the most part. 'Strong individual' think more for themselves, respect others, and others rights. Good 'mass people' are great for totalitarian figure heads.

Here we are, most of us, living in demoracy's and belong/belonged to a totalitarian church!

Jeff also brought up a valid point, it is a sin to not live in this life, find happiness here. Life may present different opportunites, and challeges for each of us, and there will be varying degree for each of us. Life is about here, the next one will take care of itself.

Best to you as you search to find where is best for you.

[Born Free]

Ifitmakesuhappy,

Can I feed back what thoughts, questions, feelings arise as I read what you wrote. I will interpose my response throughout your remarks:

"I have discussed my leaving the church and my being gay with a good TBM friend of mine till the cows come home... and while she assures me that if I would just go back into 'the fold' and keep to my covenants, she’s certain I would find a good TBM man who I would find happiness with (she just doesn’t get the 'but I’m gay' thing!), it basically always comes down to me having to choose between this life and the next.”

One thing many fundamentalists have great difficulty getting through their head is the inherent nature of gayness. They still suffer, for the most part, under the delightful ignorance of never having read one skerrick of scientific data on homosexuality.

They don’t know that science currently believes that about 10% of the population are gay.
They don’t know that science has now observed homosexual and bisexual behaviour in a wide variety of the animal world (So what we now have are evil animals?).
They are ignorant that there is no ‘cure’.
They have never considered that you no more decided to be gay, than I decided to be straight. (Lifestyle choice? Like it’s a choice of whether to buy Levis or CK)

It then follows that if homosexuality is part of the natural order and delightful variety of the world, then THEY are left with the problem of how they respond. (there is implicit in this step a big dilema for religiofundies! Either 'God' made you gay and was happy with what he/she made in which case you are in the clear, or 'God' screwed up when he/she made you gay, in which case God ain't the God you have been taught to fear.)

Some, those who have gone to the trouble to read the scientific data, then say “OK, God may have made you gay, But, he/she didn’t make it OK to do anything gay with your fiddleybits!”

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah…………….. right!

They, again, have not given one moment’s thought to how completely ridiculous that statement is, and how practical living it is not.

So what I hear in your friend’s statement is “You just need to find the RIGHT man (RM, TBM etc), and get a good “deep-dickin”, and you will come to your senses." In other words she is hearing you through the filter of her own comfort zone. It follows from that, that any or most advice she offers is more about the maintenance of her comfort level, than it is about God and the nature of Eternal Damnation.

Spong makes the strong point that most fundamentalists are more about feeling secure, than they are about searching for the truth (or a greater measure thereof).

I would go so far as to ask you to consider the possibility that when your ‘friend’ speaks of the 'road to certain destruction', she might be speaking less of your road, and more about the threat that the implications of your moves holds for her belief system.

“If I went back to the church i may never love or be loved again...I may never find true happiness in life (this one!). If I carry on down this 'road to certain destruction' I could find myself all alone in the next life. Well that’s how she tells it anyway. So my question is - What if she's right?? Do I choose the possibility of being sad and alone in this life, so that all the promises of my patriarchal blessing can come true in the next life? Or is God, my Heavenly Father fair and just enough to see that I am living a good life, albeit with my lesbian lover! That I try to be honest and to bring my daughter up to be sympathetic and charitable and accepting of peoples differences. That I go out of my way to help someone out put others before myself constantly...because that’s just the person I am...so surely I wouldn’t have to settle for a caravan somewhere on the field just behind where my mansion in heaven would have been built, just because I didn’t do the celestial marriage thing...would I??? Surely I would still have my child and the people I love around me in the next life. ‘Cos if not I might as well start living a more selfish life while im here, and no one wants that...but what’s the point if I’m to get nothing???”

You assume a God of particular proportions and attributes - largely the God Mormonism has defined. If you continue to explore, you will find many, many notions of what God is and how he/she/the force operates. You seem still stuck somewhere between God as the anal-retentive clerk who is toting up every misdemeanour, and where you seem to be more comfortable – of a more expansive God, one who can better fathom intent, who is not going to get upset if you use your sexuality in the way you were wired – (whether you attribute that wiring to God is your decision.)

My sense is that you are early on in a journey of discovering who you are and what you want. For me, two important ingredients were critical in finding my way:

Faith in my own intelligence and intuition. (Without that, you are putty in the hands of others who will happily use your life to their ends.)

Active pursuit of the highest quality information you can access. (You have seen on this and many other websites by now, just how keen Mormonism is to embrace truth. :rolleyes: What does that tell you about how reliable they are as a source of what Eternity is all about, and what will and will not get you there?)

I would say you have started earlier than I did on the most important journey of your life, and seem to be making a pretty good hand of it thus far. You have paid the price to be deserving of self-respect, so continue to trust your judgement, realize that we learn more by making the odd mistake with good intent than we ever do by blindly following.

I hope that is of some value.

Daryl

PS: I just spotted something else that I would caution against - "That I go out of my way to help someone out put others before myself constantly". I think it was Jeff and Paul in the thread on PostMo Spirituality that said that when they decided to get 'self-full' not 'selfish' or living to please others, they found they were much happier, and paradoxically had more energy to give to the others that really mattered.

I have often wondered how it is that every man loves himself more than all the rest of men, but yet sets less value on his own opinion of himself than on the opinion of others - Marcus Aurelius

On of the most dangerous traps on the planet is the one where people try to control you with "Thinking for yourself is an act of selfishness". Many people fail to think that toxic remark through. That is the same sort of foul smelling excrement used by Stalin and Hitler to enable them to kill millions - peopel who were prepared to give up their 'selfishness' for a great cause!! :eek: Does your life belong to you, or to the world', and if the world, which part?

Explore the notion of healthy self-affirming selfishness, or self-fullness. Happiness was never, ever achieved dancing to someone elses tune! (Keep in mind that most times religion uses that notion, there are men/women who want to act as intermediaries bewteen you and God, who deign themselves highly enough to think they are more in tune with and entitled to know what God intends for you. In otehr words they want you to defer to THEM, not God.) Such people are meglamanics; just check out a few like Joseph Smith, David Koresh (spelling?) and Jim Jones.

[free thinker]

I do not believe there is one person who has lived, or is living now, that KNOWS if there is a next life, or what it will be like if there is. NOT ONE!!!

KINDA FUNNY THAT ALL THE RULES FOR SEX ARE MADE BY STRAIGHT MARRIED PEOPLE!! :D


Free Thinker