Post-Mormon Therapy to Recover?

[Born Free]

Some people use therapy in their recovery from Moism. I am keen to see a discussion where we put out on the table, where we had been most damaged by "God's One and Only Church" what helped in recovering.

A special thanks to twoody, whose check-in posting prompted the initiation of this thread.

Daryl

[Born Free]

Some people use therapy in their recovery from Moism. I am keen to see a discussion where we put out on the table, where we had been most damaged by "God's One and Only Church" what helped in recovering.

A special thanks to twoody, whose check-in posting prompted the initiation of this thread.

Daryl

I suffered low level depression for many adult years, which I now believe was in significant part contributed to by Mormonism. I see that came about through feeling stuck (unable to get excited as my parents were, but circumscribed by fear of leaving).

That was further exasperated by decisions I made under the influence of Moism, that I am sure I would not have made left to myself.

It was through getting professional help with the depression that I came to more fully appreciate the toxic impact of Mormonism (and BTW, I reject the idea that I now believe I was abused, merely because some therapist suggested I was). I have since gone ahead to study cults and cult dynamics in some depth, and believe MOism has many of the attributes. I have also studied psychology, self-esteem, values and world-view in some depth, and most everything I have learned there reinforces teh notion that Moism is at best seriously flawed, at worst downright oppressive and toxic to many people.

Ongoing anxiety was an element in all the above. I now see that the ongoing harping about the imminent 2nd Coming (can something remain imminet for 2,000 years?), teh need for food storage etc, all build up a field of anxiety producing factors.

And finally I 'got' Church when my parents joined when I was about 7, so figure I was far from a free agent to make choice.

On the up side.....

I should have walked when I left home at 18, but sadly lacked access to great resources like post-mormon.com and the other great independent resources available these days, including on the net.

I got progressively itchy/disquited during my 30s, actively started exploring other thinks about 33/34, and got myself X'd at about 36.

Did I look back? Not for one moment, except in anger at the wasted time, energy and LIFE.

Daryl

[silverfox]

I suffered from very deep depression as a Mo. No one would have known it because depression wasn't allowed so I became a very good actress - Meryl Streep had NOTHING on me, honey. :) There were even MANY times I had planned my suicide. (yikes I said that outloud to a public audience - beads of sweat, oh chit, the anxiety! they will know I wasn't......oh my gawd the "P" word....P E R F E C T!!!! AHHHHHHHHHH) :D Yeah, I can laugh about it now but it was torture. I had confided in our bish at the time I was depressed. I was told to fast, pray, pay, read scriptures, have more babies, do everything the Lord wanted me to and my depression would dissipate. Well of course it didn't and of course I believed it was my fault.

Anyway, no I never received any therapy ever although I probably should have many, many, many, many, many, many times in my life.

Today I am the happiest I have ever been. My life has it's challenges but freeing myself from a mold that never fit resulted in my allowing myself to gain strength, self respect, etc, etc, etc.

I recall several years ago a body was found along a highway. A busy highway, in the tall weedy grass. It had been there quite the while over a year or so if I remember correctly. She was identified as a mother of I believe 10 children. Mormon. She had just walked away from home one day, went to the weedy grass and shot herself. And no one could figure out why. No one knew what had happened to her. Let me rephrase, no one WANTED to figure out why. I will never forget her.

[Born Free]

I had confided in our bish at the time I was depressed. I was told to fast, pray, pay, read scriptures, have more babies, do everything the Lord wanted me to and my depression would dissipate. Well of course it didn't and of course I believed it was my fault.
.

Wouldn't you love to see the results of a double-blind controlled study on the clinical value of the MoMo fast/pray/pay/read scriptures/another baby/mindless subservience solution for depression? (Hey you forgot - take another calling! My wife was back taking a Seminary class a week after having a baby!)

Someone should sue these inept optomistic idiots to snap them into the real price attached to their ignorance! They have not a clue how bad a person has to hurt before self-destruction seems appealing, indeed a blessed relief.

And I wonder why you feel such pain when you think of a mother who 'lost it' and found her 'stairway to heaven' at the end of a saturday night special. Thanks for having the courage to share here how far all that stupidity had pushed you.

Far from thinking less of you for it, this little black duck can relate to you even better.

Little Black Duck!

[silverfox]

Wouldn't you love to see the results of a double-blind controlled study on the clinical value of the MoMo fast/pray/pay/read scriptures/another baby/mindless subservience solution for depression? (Hey you forgot - take another calling! My wife was back taking a Seminary class a week after having a baby!)

Someone should sue these inept optomistic idiots to snap them into the real price attached to their ignorance! They have not a clue how bad a person has to hurt before self-destruction seems appealing, indeed a blessed relief.

And I wonder why you feel such pain when you think of a mother who 'lost it' and found her 'stairway to heaven' at the end of a saturday night special. Thanks for having the courage to share here how far all that stupidity had pushed you.

Far from thinking less of you for it, this little black duck can relate to you even better.

Little Black Duck!

Oh yes!!! The CALLING! I was called Nursery Leader at that time...HAHAHA. I had three babies under 3.5 years old so hey it was the PERFECT calling for a depressed imperfect disobeying worthless MollyMo, huh? Just one more thing to make me feel even worthless, receiving a calling I didn't want, wasn't emotionally capable of performing but of course that was my fault, too.

Today I am emotional due the THE LETTER I received and the one I didn't recieve. I am bitter and angry and resentful. This is allowing some old emotions to bubble up regarding church. Right now I feel nothing but hate about anything church related. This will pass once I get what I want from them. Just a piece of paper setting me free.

But I really want to grasp these old feelings. I don't want them put completely to rest. I want to remember how much damage they have done, can do and are capable of. They are a threat to many vulnerable members out there and it MAKES ME SICK. I want to always remember how much of a very valuable life can be wasted on them. How much life and joy and love the church insists on sucking out of it's members.

And hopefully someone can learn from my mistakes.

[Born Free]

Oh yes!!! The CALLING! I was called Nursery Leader at that time...HAHAHA. I had three babies under 3.5 years old so hey it was the PERFECT calling for a depressed imperfect disobeying worthless MollyMo, huh? Just one more thing to make me feel even worthless, receiving a calling I didn't want, wasn't emotionally capable of performing but of course that was my fault, too.

But I really want to grasp these old feelings. I don't want them put completely to rest. I want to remember how much damage they have done, can do and are capable of. They are a threat to many vulnerable members out there and it MAKES ME SICK. I want to always remember how much of a very valuable life can be wasted on them. How much life and joy and love the church insists on sucking out of it's members.

And hopefully someone can learn from my mistakes.

Ever seen the take that says that anger is one response (reaction) to a perceived gap between were believe we are, and where we want to be?

Put your anger into making an Unbaptisimal Outfit! (That might have to be kept for your outted friends if too much for hubby).

Build into an outfit tokens of all the stupidity you will leave behind formally in just a few weeks. Sort of like a quilt, to draw upon Mormon traditions. I am sure you have nothing better to do with yoru time! :)

I am only sorry I can't join you for the celebrations!

Daryl

[peter_mary]

There is probably one primary reason why I didn't seek or even need therapy when I left the Church...I had a very intact support structure that I could lean on. Not only was my family with me on the journey (which makes me fortunate, and I have never lost sight of that), but I also was surrounded by good friends who were on the same journey. There are at least 10 people in my life, in my immediate group of friends, not including my children, who were coming out of the Church at the very same time, and we could get together (with GREAT regularity) and process the years and years of pent-up anger, bitterness, fear, guilt, and all the other delights that therapy is designed to help you through.

No, I didn't need therapy, but only because I had true friends. Of all the things in my life, I value those relationships with my wife, children and true friends because they were there for me, and I for them, when the chips were down. My Home Teachers weren't. I really get that now...

Paul

[Born Free]

There is probably one primary reason why I didn't seek or even need therapy when I left the Church...I had a very intact support structure that I could lean on. Not only was my family with me on the journey (which makes me fortunate, and I have never lost sight of that), but I also was surrounded by good friends who were on the same journey. There are at least 10 people in my life, in my immediate group of friends, not including my children, who were coming out of the Church at the very same time, and we could get together (with GREAT regularity) and process the years and years of pent-up anger, bitterness, fear, guilt, and all the other delights that therapy is designed to help you through.

No, I didn't need therapy, but only because I had true friends. Of all the things in my life, I value those relationships with my wife, children and true friends because they were there for me, and I for them, when the chips were down. My Home Teachers weren't. I really get that now...

Paul

Paul,

Community support is an invaluable resource. Sadly, many people drift into the dangerous space where the Church is their WORLD, and if they are the only one walking, they can get really vulnerable.

If you will, tell a little more about the dynamics of 10 people being ready to walk en-mass. That must have been an interesting process, and made some serious ripples, I am guessing?

To give credit where it is due, the LDS Church seems by all accounts, less toxic than the Jehovahs Witness, on this score based upon what I have observed in some in-depth documentaries). There people are formally made persona-non-grata, and shunned by all and sundry, including family.

Now that takes abusiveness to another level again.

Daryl

[peter_mary]

Paul,

If you will, tell a little more about the dynamics of 10 people being ready to walk en-mass. That must have been an interesting process, and made some serious ripples, I am guessing?

To give credit where it is due, the LDS Church seems by all accounts, less toxic than the Jehovahs Witness, on this score based upon what I have observed in some in-depth documentaries). There people are formally made persona-non-grata, and shunned by all and sundry, including family.

Now that takes abusiveness to another level again.

Daryl

It's hard to say how it happened, but I think my wife and I were probably in an interesting "self-selection" process. People who were inclined to question along the fringe seemed to recognize in us the same willingness to question. So as we talked more and more amongst ourselves, we found ourselves pushing the boundaries a little more, and a little more, all at the same time, until one day we looked around and found ourselves surrounded by apostate friends. Others just happened to be on a parallel journey and we "found" each other.

Not all of the 10 or so folks are in our Ward (and on further count, it's more like 14 or 15)...but 8 of us are, and I think it's causing our Bishop fits. He's due to be released soon, and I think he's leaving us ALL pretty much alone to let it be someone elses problem! Let's just say that Priesthood meetings were "interesting" there for a while :) .

And it is my understanding that you are correct regarding the "shunning" of Jehovah's Witnesses. It is also true for Bahai's. Tch...why is it so hard to love those that are different? And why is it so threatening to them if we choose differently? That's a rhetorical question, of course.

A similar argument rages in this country right now regarding same-sex marriages or civil unions. The conservative faction claims that allowing that to happen would be "the greatest threat yet to the American family." I guess I hadn't realized that our families would fall apart if a handful of same-sex unions were legalized. Turns out that if 5% of the population (liberal estimate) decides to engage in same-sex marriages, the 95% of the rest of our families will dissolve in disarray. Yeah, that makes sense to me... :rolleyes: It's the same thinking I suppose that says we have to shun those who leave the faith...they will corrupt the rest of us with their lies!

Paul

[Born Free]

It's hard to say how it happened, but I think my wife and I were probably in an interesting "self-selection" process. People who were inclined to question along the fringe seemed to recognize in us the same willingness to question. So as we talked more and more amongst ourselves, we found ourselves pushing the boundaries a little more, and a little more, all at the same time, until one day we looked around and found ourselves surrounded by apostate friends. Others just happened to be on a parallel journey and we "found" each other.

Not all of the 10 or so folks are in our Ward (and on further count, it's more like 14 or 15)...but 8 of us are, and I think it's causing our Bishop fits. He's due to be released soon, and I think he's leaving us ALL pretty much alone to let it be someone elses problem! Let's just say that Priesthood meetings were "interesting" there for a while :) .

And it is my understanding that you are correct regarding the "shunning" of Jehovah's Witnesses. It is also true for Bahai's. Tch...why is it so hard to love those that are different? And why is it so threatening to them if we choose differently? That's a rhetorical question, of course.

A similar argument rages in this country right now regarding same-sex marriages or civil unions. The conservative faction claims that allowing that to happen would be "the greatest threat yet to the American family." I guess I hadn't realized that our families would fall apart if a handful of same-sex unions were legalized. Turns out that if 5% of the population (liberal estimate) decides to engage in same-sex marriages, the 95% of the rest of our families will dissolve in disarray. Yeah, that makes sense to me... :rolleyes: It's the same thinking I suppose that says we have to shun those who leave the faith...they will corrupt the rest of us with their lies!

Paul

Assuming most your friends are a low-intellect as you :p , that group of 8 must have been pretty daunting to the poor Bishop.

That sure sounds interesting. Very different from the lonely struggle of of the cacoon for most people! Good to hear about that.

(Hey is that icon I chose a crystal ball or a light bulb? The implications are a bit different!)

[nate]

A similar argument rages in this country right now regarding same-sex marriages or civil unions. The conservative faction claims that allowing that to happen would be "the greatest threat yet to the American family."

What a load of crap. Wasn't this the exact same rationalization used by the conservatives to fight inter-racial marriages 25 years ago? But wait...there's still happily married folks runnin amok!! WTF??

I can't speak for everyone, but I know for a fact that the only thing that can harm the "sanctity" of MY marriage is me & my wife!

Back on topic, no, I did not seek therapy when I left the church, although looking back I can see that I definitely should have. The main reason that I didn't was the fact that my TBM parents felt that I needed therapy because I was questioning the church. They took me to see nice mormon shrinks to get "fixed", and even tried medicating me. The sick thing is, when I went to the psychiatrist, she decided that I needed Prozac based on a 10-question, multiple choice quiz that she gave me to fill out (it was a notepad, like a prescription pad, and she had stacks of them). The questions were so generic, like "Do you sleep-in alot, sometimes or never", etc.

After she graded me and my brothers' quizzes (it was a joint session with 2 of my brothers that also didn't like the church), she said my brothers definitely needed Prozac, but my answers seemed alright. However, she decided to write me a prescription too, "just in case".

So, I really didn't want to have anything to do with therapy, because that's exactly what my parents wanted (just for the wrong reasons), and being in my late teens I was sure that I was invincible. Little did I know that my exodus would be as painful and emotionally damaging as it was.

In a family of 12+ TBMs, my 2 like-minded brothers and I were the odd one's out. My brothers had gotten into the drug+alcohol scene, but I stuck by my morals for quite some time. As the months went on, being frequently and repeatedly told how unworthy and bad I was, I began to believe it, even though I was a 4.0 student. At that point the only choices that I can see before me were 2 different extremes and without support I could no longer live as I was suspended in the middle. So, being rebellious, knowing that I didn't trust the church, and knowing next to nothing of the "other side", I chose to leap into the unknown. And leap I did...too far.

I'm still surprised that I didn't die shortly after (there were many close calls, including a broken back), and I have no idea how I pulled myself to where I am now without professional help. The only things I can think of that pulled me through was my passion for art, my desire to make a living by that passion, and a few choice friends that helped me find my inner peace (Jeff's son being one of them).

Oh man! Therapy would've been SOO much easier. And can you believe, after all that, my TBM family still insults me by saying that I don't go to church because the path I've chosen is easier.

But anyways; thanks for this thread, and this site. You guys are great! It's good to get this stuff off my chest every once in a while, and I'm sure my wife is sick of hearing it. :)

[Born Free]

Back on topic, no, I did not seek therapy when I left the church, although looking back I can see that I definitely should have. The main reason that I didn't was the fact that my TBM parents felt that I needed therapy because I was questioning the church. They took me to see nice mormon shrinks to get "fixed", and even tried medicating me. The sick thing is, when I went to the psychiatrist, she decided that I needed Prozac based on a 10-question, multiple choice quiz that she gave me to fill out (it was a notepad, like a prescription pad, and she had stacks of them). The questions were so generic, like "Do you sleep-in alot, sometimes or never", etc.

But anyways; thanks for this thread, and this site. You guys are great! It's good to get this stuff off my chest every once in a while, and I'm sure my wife is sick of hearing it. :)

Nath,

I love the 'thorough' evaluation used by some to establish depression - 10 questions! You get that sort of eval in a magazine. In the program I am involved with for separated guys, our evaluation form has over 300 questions!

I see in what you share the very interesting potential for Mo psychs, counsellors, therapists etc, to be on very thin ice professionally, if they support some Church positions in their workspace.

If they refuse to countenance the possibility that a client's depression/problems might be based in their problems with the Church, then they are being seriously negligent of the clients' needs.

I recall M Scott Peck mentioning his confusion in working as a psychiatrist when he saw some clients make a step forward in their mental health by finding religion, and others made a step forward leaving it. He said it took him years to see how that worked, and it turned out to be a stage-of-growth thing, with some stepping out of Choas into the very controlled space of the Family/Institutional world view, whereas the 2nd group had outlived that, and were ready to transition to a more Humanistic/Service world view.

Interestingly IME, many therapists are already in the humanistic space anyway, so probably fringe dwellers of Moism anyway.

I congratulate you in the courage to step away early, and am glad you safely survived the dark part of the journey.

Daryl

[lsands]

Therapy was what finally made it possible for me to believe in myself enough to live according to what I felt and knew, and leave. I was so depressed in my marriage and in the church that I was dying emotionally. Both my exhusband and the church made me believe that if I was unhappy, there must be something wrong with me!

Compassionate, nonjudgmental support finally empowered me enough to believe in my own thoughts and feelings. Being accepted and valued without judgment allowed me to imagine a God who could see me the same way. I still struggled with depression over the years---of course it took several years after making the changes to really get healthy, and I had children still to raise alone. But I have been depression-free for 3 1/2 years now, the longest time in my adult life. Now I am a participant in a weekly women's group in Salt Lake, where I continue to grow emotionally and spiritually, and heal a lot of the s**t we all acquire in the course of our lives.

BTW, bigeddy was my therapist. His support and compassion changed my life.

Laraine

[Born Free]

Therapy was what finally made it possible for me to believe in myself enough to live according to what I felt and knew, and leave. I was so depressed in my marriage and in the church that I was dying emotionally. Both my exhusband and the church made me believe that if I was unhappy, there must be something wrong with me!

Compassionate, nonjudgmental support finally empowered me enough to believe in my own thoughts and feelings. Being accepted and valued without judgment allowed me to imagine a God who could see me the same way. I still struggled with depression over the years---of course it took several years after making the changes to really get healthy, and I had children still to raise alone. But I have been depression-free for 3 1/2 years now, the longest time in my adult life. Now I am a participant in a weekly women's group in Salt Lake, where I continue to grow emotionally and spiritually, and heal a lot of the s**t we all acquire in the course of our lives.

BTW, bigeddy was my therapist. His support and compassion changed my life.

Laraine

lsands,

Very interesting to hear your journey, and also to hear you had been a client of Eds. I get the impression he is a great therapist and would love more opportunity to rub shoulders with him.

Equally of interest is that you have engaged a women's group for ongoing peer support.

I joined a men's group meeting fortnightly over 12 years ago now, and have been in an open and two closed groups over the years. I believe that I found a lot of what I yearned for in the Church (and never got) in good men's groups: deep honesty, major commitment to being non-judgemental, deep honesty and responsibility around sexuality, deep appreciation of the 'dance' and creative tension between the genders.

I remember once coming out of a powerful intergenerational workshop at a men's festival and realising that in all my years in Church all I believe I ever saw was mask-wearing and wall-to-wall BS.

Any of that connect with your experience in a women's group? I bet you miss the deep honesty of RS?

Daryl

[wescape]

My journey out of Mormonism happened as an adolescent teen and at the time my main concern was to distance myself from the Mormon identity that defined our existence. I did not know who I was but I knew I wanted nothing to do with Mormonism which was completely lifeless to me. So I became the exact opposite of "a nice mormon young man." I refused to go to church or seminary, grew my hair long, hung out with the "wrong crowd," began using illegal drugs, engaged in unmarried sexual activity, etc. This became my new identity and it was a whole lot more fun...for awhile anyway.

Eventually, I became very depressed and started reflecting on my life. Where am I going? Why am I here? Why does everything seem meaningless? Why do I feel this way? Basically I had an existential crisis and really started questioning things. I traced my existence back to the fact that I am on this planet because my parents had sex. They met after joining Mormonism in their 20's and I decided I needed to find out a little bit more about this lifeless organization that I hated so much. Why did my parents join this organization? My research at the public library blew me away and it was clear, at least to me, that Mormonism was pure deception and those who started it were evil, greedy men who knowingly deceived numerous people for their own gain. This information overwhlemed me and the conclusion I came to was this:

My existence is the result of a lie.

I felt like a mistake. This became my new identity along with huge amounts of bitterness and anger towards Mormonism and any other man-made organization or group that oppresses people through fear-based control. I trusted no one and extrapolated my understanding of Mormonism to the rest of the world:

People cannot be trusted. They are out to deceive and use me.

My paranoia was extreme and my isolation made it even worse. So I created my own version of truth and decided that it was all up to me. I would decide what was true and I didn't want to hear what anyone else thought because they would only deceive me.

As you can see, my state of mind was pretty troubled. It was a dark time that I would wish upon no one. Thankfully things changed for me when I met someone who didn't fit into my version of truth. This person did not have an agenda for me as I had initially thought. Instead, he listened to me with genuine concern and affirmed how I felt. This pulled the proverbial rug right out from under me! It took me awhile before I actually believed it was the real thing but eventually I did. This person became the father I never had and much healing took place as a result. My paranoia went away and so did my isolation and depression. While it wasn't official therapy, the relationship served the same purpose in many ways.

Unfortunately, not everyone who comes out of Mormonism has the same experience. That's why I want to start a non-profit cult-recovery center as a safehaven to help facilitate the healing process. It is my passion to come alongside other ex-cult members and join them on the journey towards freedom.

Wes

[silverfox]

My journey out of Mormonism happened as an adolescent teen and at the time my main concern was to distance myself from the Mormon identity that defined our existence. I did not know who I was but I knew I wanted nothing to do with Mormonism which was completely lifeless to me. So I became the exact opposite of "a nice mormon young man." I refused to go to church or seminary, grew my hair long, hung out with the "wrong crowd," began using illegal drugs, engaged in unmarried sexual activity, etc. This became my new identity and it was a whole lot more fun...for awhile anyway.

Eventually, I became very depressed and started reflecting on my life. Where am I going? Why am I here? Why does everything seem meaningless? Why do I feel this way? Basically I had an existential crisis and really started questioning things. I traced my existence back to the fact that I am on this planet because my parents had sex. They met after joining Mormonism in their 20's and I decided I needed to find out a little bit more about this lifeless organization that I hated so much. Why did my parents join this organization? My research at the public library blew me away and it was clear, at least to me, that Mormonism was pure deception and those who started it were evil, greedy men who knowingly deceived numerous people for their own gain. This information overwhlemed me and the conclusion I came to was this:

My existence is the result of a lie.

I felt like a mistake. This became my new identity along with huge amounts of bitterness and anger towards Mormonism and any other man-made organization or group that oppresses people through fear-based control. I trusted no one and extrapolated my understanding of Mormonism to the rest of the world:

People cannot be trusted. They are out to deceive and use me.

My paranoia was extreme and my isolation made it even worse. So I created my own version of truth and decided that it was all up to me. I would decide what was true and I didn't want to hear what anyone else thought because they would only deceive me.

As you can see, my state of mind was pretty troubled. It was a dark time that I would wish upon no one. Thankfully things changed for me when I met someone who didn't fit into my version of truth. This person did not have an agenda for me as I had initially thought. Instead, he listened to me with genuine concern and affirmed how I felt. This pulled the proverbial rug right out from under me! It took me awhile before I actually believed it was the real thing but eventually I did. This person became the father I never had and much healing took place as a result. My paranoia went away and so did my isolation and depression. While it wasn't official therapy, the relationship served the same purpose in many ways.

Unfortunately, not everyone who comes out of Mormonism has the same experience. That's why I want to start a non-profit cult-recovery center as a safehaven to help facilitate the healing process. It is my passion to come alongside other ex-cult members and join them on the journey towards freedom.

Wes

I know many can relate to your story. How wonderful that you found a positive role model to help ease the pain. Keep us updated on your cult recovery center.

I love to see members leave early in life like you did rather than waste years and years in a cult. I hate that I was in my mid 40's when I realized the real truth although I had doubts for years.

[gracie]

I purposely did not go to therapy while on my way out of the church. Once I started making discoveries about the true origin of the COJCLDS and found out all the other faith shaking truths, iIchose not to go to counselling until I had made a decision about what to do with my new information. Now that I have decided to "leave the fold", I am starting some counselling. My experiences with church included sexual abuse by a bish, and I know I will benefit from professional counselling to deal with the anger over being "duped" AND suffering hugely because of that. I do not want my husband or family to ever think that the counsellor somehow affected my decision to distance myself from the LDS church, hence the short wait. They are all TBM and will grasp at any and all reasons to explain why I 'm leaving, just not the ones I'll give them!
Gracie

[wescape]

Thanks Silverfox. There's something very healing about genuine relationships with people who really care and that's what I want the recovery center to be about. I won't finish my Master's for a few more years but I'll definitely keep you posted as things develop.

I'm sorry you feel that you wasted so many years in Mormonism. But perhaps those years weren't for nothing. You have a perspective that is unique and I'm sure your experience could help others. Coming out of a cult is very hard to understand by those who have not gone through it. Therefore, I think you have a lot to offer people that you wouldn't otherwise have. Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT trying to say that I'm happy about being raised in Mormonism or that you should be. I'm just saying that we have a unique opportunity to help people and that our experiences can be used for good. :)

[lsands]

I do not want my husband or family to ever think that the counsellor somehow affected my decision to distance myself from the LDS church, hence the short wait. They are all TBM and will grasp at any and all reasons to explain why I 'm leaving, just not the ones I'll give them!
Gracie

I left my husband and then the church as a result of counseling, and, it's true, my family holds the counselor responsible. Of course, I am so easily led ;) and influenced by others, I could not possibly have made these decisions myself, especially since both my marriage and the church were such tremendous blessings in my life! :Puking The fact that I was so chronically depressed that I was dying emotionally just meant that I either: wasn't doing it right (the church) or needed stronger anti-depressants (my husband.) :Crazy:

As I mentioned in a previous post, I couldn't have left without counseling to empower me to trust and believe in MYSELF. That you can do this on your own demonstrates the strength you already have, Gracie. I'm sure you realize that your family and friends will just find other (false) reasons to explain to themselves why you left, since the idea that the church is NOT true and that you are happier outside it cannot be admitted by them.

[lsands]

This thread has gotten me thinking about this idea, since so many of us have needed therapy either pre-leaving or since. Of course, some might say that this just proves that exmo's are all crazy! :Crazy: But I am truly emotionally healthier and MUCH happier now than I have ever been.

In thinking about this, three aspects of mental health that are difficult for Mormons come to mind: first, being open to new information that might contradict what we currently know; second, maintaining authority over our own lives and making decisions based on what we feel is best for us individually; third, maintaining healthy boundaries. There ARE Mormons who are able to do all of these things and still remain connected to the church, on their own terms. But they are the minority, in my observations, and I was not one of them.

I'm interested in hearing your responses.

[dogzilla]

I think I've seen you make comments about boundaries in other threads on these boards and I have to thank you for bringing that up. I haven't really thought about it in those terms exactly.

A year or two ago, to mishes showed up at my front door. (One of 'em was the gayest person I had ever laid eyes on and literally sung out, "We're the missionaries..." His companion visibly cringed. I could only chuckle, and then I felt really bad for this kid who is so obviously gay, but must be in total denial about it, even though everyone around him is painfully aware. Anyway.) I let these boys in because they were missionaries.

It gave me an idea for a horror novel about a serial killer who pretends to be a mormon missionary and gets away with it, because I would NEVER allow two strange men into my house unannounced and uninvited. But slap an LDS nametag on 'em and I let them in, feed 'em and suddenly, they're supposed to be my best friends. There's an innate trust that is supposed to be understood, but my self-defense instinct took over and I realized how stupid it is to let strangers into my house, gay missionaries or not.

So they wanted to talk to me, but of course couldn't without a chaperone there to make sure I didn't corrupt them. :rolleyes: They should up a week or so later, about 45 minutes late and I was pissed.

I had forgotten about Mormon Standard Time and how missionaries (and the chaperoning high priest, as well as many, many other TBMs) have no consideration whatsoever for anyone else's time, schedule, commitments, obligations, or responsibilities. As it was, I burned my dinner that night, because I gave up on 'em and started cooking. Who the hell shows up for an appointment nearly an hour late and doesn't bother to apologize, or call ahead and reschedule or show any consideration or basic manners at all? Only Mormons with no sense of boundaries at all. After 20 years out of the church, it's simply common sense rudeness. But no TBM will see it that way because I'm supposed to trust and love these strangers who entered my home and immediately began to question my most deeply personal spiritual beliefs. As if it's any of their busines. In the TBM world, we're all one happy family and I should be thrilled to bear my soul to these total strangers and the gay missionary. In my world, the real one, they were nothing but rude and inconsiderate. I should have told them I wanted my name removed because of their rudeness!

Grr.

I sure hope that gay missionary comes to his senses and gets out before they try anything drastic. He practically had flowers dripping out of his fingertips...

[Born Free]

This thread has gotten me thinking about this idea, since so many of us have needed therapy either pre-leaving or since. Of course, some might say that this just proves that exmo's are all crazy! :Crazy: But I am truly emotionally healthier and MUCH happier now than I have ever been.

In thinking about this, three aspects of mental health that are difficult for Mormons come to mind: first, being open to new information that might contradict what we currently know; second, maintaining authority over our own lives and making decisions based on what we feel is best for us individually; third, maintaining healthy boundaries. There ARE Mormons who are able to do all of these things and still remain connected to the church, on their own terms. But they are the minority, in my observations, and I was not one of them.

I'm interested in hearing your responses.

I saw the DVD of the documentary made about the Amish kids being kicked out of the nest on the weekend in the video rental store. It reminded me of seeing same on TV, and I thought I must rent that and rewatch it, as it offers some insights into how Mormonism works (or doesn't depending upon your perspective). It casts some light on this issue IMO.

What I do recall from watching it was that the brighest (as in most intelligent) of the teenagers was the girl who had developed full blown depression, before she decided to leave, get therapy and then moved on to healthy functioning away from the Amish.

From my perspective and logic, it will be the brightest kids who first see that IT isn't working.
If the cult uses heavy duty lock-in techniques, then the sense of being imprisoned and having your intelligence assulted will be most pronounced, hence the depression.
They then actively engage information to resolve their dilema, as soon as they get the chance.
That brings up how serious has been the assult upon their intelliegence, and how they had to disassociate to survive. They frequently need some therapy to assimilate that new information and reinforce that it is OK and normal to have reacted as they did.
Then they slowly find a new circle of friends, who share they new broader functioning, and help consolidate the gains.

Now compare that with the Amish kids who have been totally inadequately prepared for the real world and did not have the smarts to find their way out of the maze, so when thrown head long into it (Big Bad World), very predicdably flounder, and then at the point of drowning, run back to the religion and cultural isolation.

That is no proof the world is BAD and therefore the religion is RIGHT!.... more a profound illustration that if you set someone up to fail well enough, you can nearly guarantee it will happen; unless they are smart enough to outsmart the person/people designing the game.

So my take is: If you aren't upset by Mormonism, it is because you are disconnected from what is happening - off in la-la land. It is because you have decided that you are too fragile to cope with the incongruities you may/will find. It is because you have said that finding your own meaning of your life is just too hard, too responsible; so you will pass the job across to someone else.

No one ever said being a fully functional adult was easy. If you have been raised inside a cacoon that not only protects you from the real world, and so prevents gradual healthy progressive maturation, but on top of that they have used a web of lies and deceipt, then why would you not be a little pissed and possibly have a few adjustment issues.

So, for my money, better "out" with a few adjustment issues, that happily drinking the funny cordial, convinced all in well in Zion!

Daryl

[gracie]

I left my husband and then the church as a result of counseling, and, it's true, my family holds the counselor responsible. Of course, I am so easily led ;) and influenced by others, I could not possibly have made these decisions myself, especially since both my marriage and the church were such tremendous blessings in my life! :Puking The fact that I was so chronically depressed that I was dying emotionally just meant that I either: wasn't doing it right (the church) or needed stronger anti-depressants (my husband.) :Crazy:

As I mentioned in a previous post, I couldn't have left without counseling to empower me to trust and believe in MYSELF. That you can do this on your own demonstrates the strength you already have, Gracie. I'm sure you realize that your family and friends will just find other (false) reasons to explain to themselves why you left, since the idea that the church is NOT true and that you are happier outside it cannot be admitted by them.


I am lucky in that I have been able to share much of my journey "out" with my husband. He is still a believer, but he sees what I have been through and my thought processes of the past few months. So he supports me. I guess I was more concerned about my parents in particular thinking that I have been misguided or something; they seem to think I am still 11 years old!!!(I'm 38 with 3 kids). Also, I have been led around by the nose all my life by the one and only true church of god ;) so I really wanted to do this on my own! I have chosen to go to counselling to help me focus and I have asked her to be my cheerleader, because sticking up for myself and standing up for my own beliefs is going to be interpreted by most of my family as evil and selfish??! because of course if I was only faithful then everything would be perfect, right?
This will be an interesting next few weeks!
Gracie

[miss taken]

As a member of the church things were never particularly easy for me. I think that the over-riding thing for me, was that I feel I was kept in a state of child-like acceptance on anything, and never aloud to intellectually, and in many ways, emotionally, grow up.

I stayed for many years out of fear that I would be going into Satans hands. I do remember various GA's saying that once you have crossed the line (and got baptised) that was it, you were no longer ignorant, and you would then be under great condemnation if you left.
The temple ceremony adds to that psychological mind control

The mindset still hits me now and again, but I have to be rational, and know that God loves me for who I am
Must go hubbie rushing me out the door!!!

[Born Free]

I have to confess that the graph medium was not perfectly suited to the questions posed. It was the first time I had used it, and therefore failed to appreciate its limitations, so I have gone through and re-interpreted the results.

19 people responded.
16% (3) stated they had no need or did not engage therapy after leaving
37% (7) stated they had a need to engage therapy after leaving
47% (9) did not choose to tick either of the above catagories. (What other option did I miss? Help me)

58% (11) said they suffered depression before and/or after leaving
58% (11) said they suffered anxiety before and/or after leaving

58% (11) stated they were born in or raised from an early age within Mormonism
31% (6) stated they joined Mormonism as an adult.
10% (2) did not tick eitehr of the above two (2) options (again, what did I miss)

So what might all that tell us?

1. Of respondents re therapy for every one person who did not feel the need or engaged therapy after exiting, two did. If that statistic stood up across large numbers of leavers, that does not speak well of Mormonism IMHO.

2. High percentages (58%) stated they suffered depression and an identical number suffered anxiety before and/or after leaving. I acknowledge that much more analysis would need to be done to safely interpret that statistic. It also says nothing about the extent of overlap or pre-existing condition.

3. Nearly two thirds (58%) of the respondents were raised Mormon.

It might be valuable to cross reference those who felt they needed therapy and those that were born and raised in the Church to see if there is any meaningful correlation. My subjective experience is that those raised in the Church are more traumatised by their decision that they must leave, possibly because their decision has extended family implications, hits their belief systems so deeply, and because they never had any choice about "joining" in the first place.

I would be interested in other thoughts and speculations.

Daryl

[wescape]

Daryl,

I was raised in the church and felt I needed therapy (still do) after leaving. Of course, I also believe that all people would benefit from therapy because no one gets through this life without deep wounds. That said, I think that being raised in an oppressive system like Mormonism just exacerbates the problems that are inherently part of all human existence. For example, take a person who would have normally been exposed to a dysfunctional family (and who isn't?) with a disengaged father and an enmeshed mother outside of something like Mormonsim. In this case, the family may or may not have the opportunity to get some help. In Mormonism, it's almost a guarantee that they will not. The main reason for this is the overwhelming amount of denial that is encouraged and demanded. Dealing with difficult issues in any capacity (theological, relational, cognitive, emotional, etc.) is just not part of the Mormon way and I believe that this mode of operations is largely what facilitates and maintains the system (and is also the reason I believe that abuse is so prevalent in Mormonism). If any of those issues were ever honestly addressed the entire structure would crumble and people would be leaving in droves.

For me, leaving Mormonism as someone who was born and raised in it had both positives and negatives. On the one hand, yes it was extremely burdensome to reject my family and everything I had ever been taught as true. Adolescence is hard enough, and that added stress made it even more difficult. It is normally a time of identity formation but for me it was identity dismantling. I didn't know who I was, but I did know who I was not.

At the same time, I think it was easier for me to leave something that I never chose to be in for that very reason. It seems like it would be much more distressful to have to leave something I did choose. In that case, I would have to come to terms with the fact that I willingly chose to believe a lie and was decieved. I think the longer people have believed in something and given their life to it, the harder would be to accept or even consider that they have been fooled.

Anyway, these are the thoughts I've had about this issue. I'd love to hear others' experience.

Wes