Why I Don't Live Near Family - Rant [Archive]

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nate

29th April 2006, 04:23 PM

elder_nomo

29th April 2006, 11:29 PM

Is it just me, or is my completely furious reaction justified?
Nate -
IMO, the idea that we have to "earn" the right to see our loved ones in the hereafter is one of the most insidious manipulations employed by the Morg. Indoctrinating a six-year-old with that garbage is pretty low. Can't blame you one bit for reacting how you did.
But if your mom really believes that stuff, it must be hard for her thinking that you'll miss out on seeing your brother. The concept is so messed up, but her intentions may be good.
Wishing you peace.

lunaverse

1st May 2006, 02:58 PM

He got it "mixed up in his head"...

How often have I heard my parents use the terms, "Mixed up", "Confused", and "Twisting" to defend any "misunderstood" thing they said, or doctrine of the church?

"Now you're twisting my words," and "You've misunderstood the point of the Gospel".

Last time I got something mixed up was when I told my dad about how the Mormon God demands obedience. He sent me the scripture about how it is not meet that the Lord should command in all things, so I sent him about 25 oft-quoted verses (most from Seminary Scripture Mastery) about commandments, and how bad it's going to be for those who don't listen up.

Just another loop-hole in the slippery logic of the Church.

Luna

miss taken

2nd May 2006, 04:08 PM

Hey Luna, nice to see you posting. Hope the move went okay!!

Nate. I don't find that attitude funny.

I am really sad to say that one of the reasons I don't pop into the LDS church too often (well it's kind of once in a blue moon), is because I DON'T want my son to grow up with these distorted ethics. I am not saying everyone is like that. I am sure they are not, but when I was active it was all too common and I don't want him to be a part of it..

Is that sad or what??

Ho

Born Free

2nd May 2006, 06:33 PM

There are times when you just get homesick.

Times like this usually happen when you're curled up on the couch, holding your new wife, whose holding your new daughter. Times like this cause you to reflect on how good your life is, and you can't think about that without comparing it to your childhood; for childhood is that far off land of adventure, free of deadlines and bills. And the characters in all the memories of those adventures are your family.

So you reach for the phone and you dial the number; you call home. On the other end is your mother. It's good to hear her voice. You miss her.
She tells you that she has story, one about the six-year-old son of your recently deceased brother.

And it goes like this:

"Did I tell you what he said to his grandmother? Not me, his other grandmother?"

The other grandmother is a nevermo.

"Grandma, if you don't go to church, then when you die you can't see my dad.

"Isn't that funny!" mother asks.

--------

That's what happened today, and it pissed me off.

No, that's not funny! And I told her so. I told her my nephew is way too young to be learning that elitist bull$&!%!

"Oh, but he's not learning that at church, that's just something that he got mixed up in his head somehow."

Uh-huh. Of course he's leaning that crap at church. Where else would he learn it? Oh yeah... home.

How can she possibly expect me, of all people, to find that funny? I don't go to church. And I was closer to this kids dad than anyone else in the family. What is funny about that?

"No, it's funny that his grandma took it so seriously. You can't let something a six-year-old said get to you. He's six! It's funny!"

Yes. Exactly. He's six years old and is already learning that if HE doesn't go to church, he will never get to see his Dad again; and if he does, he will!

Is it just me, or is my completely furious reaction justified? 'Cuz this is NOT happening with my daughter!

Anyway, thanks for letting me rant. Hope everyone's doing alright.
Nate
Nate,

I'm with you. You have good reason to be pissed!

Let's chunk the episode down.

Child comes out with "Grandma, if you don't go to church, then when you die you can't see my dad.

"Isn't that funny!" mother asks."

The above has a couple of critical elements for me.

1. A six (6) year old child has somehow got in their head the notion that contact with others in an afterlife is some sort of 'test and prove' process, where the non-Mos get the booby prize.

2. The child subsequently announces to their Never-Mo Grandparent that she will not get access as a Non-Mo in the afterlife to her son.

3. Mo-Grandma sees this as cute, and 'funny'.

4. Mo-Grandma just drops this story into the ear of ex-Mo son, as if it were a weather report about snow arriving early in autumn, and expects he should find it just as 'funny'.

Now, how does this exchange look when laid out like that? A bit different? :eek:

Re 1 - What is the chance of a 6 year old child grasping, out of the blue, upon the notion that the afterlife is some sort of exclusive club, where Mos have the inside running, and even loved family members get the bum's rush? (Further, this message has been grasped by the child at a tender age when the notion of loss of family love and approval is horrifying.)

SFA in my opinion.

Re 2 - children repeat what they have heard, and at 6, have not developed the capacity to think through and empathise that this notion might be distressing to his Never-Mo-Gran.

Re 3 - Now we get to the interesting bit. It would appear that at least two possibilities exist to explain this behaviour:

a. Mo-Gran is still at the same stage of development as her 6 year old grandson, and lacks the savvy (emotional intelligence) to sus out the insensitivity of this utterance, or

b. Mo-Gran has progressed somewhere beyond the empathy capacity of a 6 YO, but some other belief system has messed with the above, so her sensitivity gets overridden by the other agenda.

Re 4 - Emotionally stunted MoGran repeats story to ExMo Son and appears genuinely surprised that he does not see it as a simple 'funny' story.

So a question arises for me is this: Are emotional dwarfs attracted to Mormonism, or does it engender and cultivate emotional dwarfs?

On your final question re 'furious', I would repsond that I think that is an entirely nomal response, BUT don't fall into the trap of getting stuck there, or letting MoMum see much of that.

Anger on your behalf, will be interpreted by her (with the assistance of her MoMind-F, as proof that since leaving the Church you are becoming a 'not-nice person' (and then she does not have to address her inappropriate actions.)

Which would not do. At all.

I would think that if you can find other ways to try to enable her (or not escape) seeing the inappropriateness of all of the above, then she might change her behaviour (sorry, Australian/English spelling).

One simple reference point might be, to agree that a simple test might be to walk up to any Non-Mo woman of similar age on the street and see if she agrees that the child's utterance was 'funny'.

Daryl

:: wanders off muttering to himself, 'Maybe Mos put something in the sacrament water or bread that drugs Mos and turns them into crettins that are incapable of seeing the inappropriateness of such behaviour!' ::

PS: I thought after (isn't time to reflect a great luxury?), what might have happened if you said to MoMa:

"Mum, what is funny about that totally eludes me, but there may be a subtlty that I am missing.

Which part exactly was amusing to you?

How do you figure Grandma X felt about what (the child) said? (Note that GranMa X experience of this process does not even make a blip on the radar screen)

If you were in her shoes for that exchange, what do you think that might have felt like?

And yes, it would not have happened if she was a Mo, but that is not the point here. How do you think she felt being told that by her 6 year old grandson that she would be excluded for all of time from contact with one of her loved ones?

Do you figure that made her more favourably disposed towards the Church and its beliefs and even you (her) and MO family members?

Do you figure that will help her look forward to spending extended family time with the Mo family members?"

I am sure you can build on that list, in a way that throws her back onto herself, and her professed beliefs, and to be confronted by the gap between all the MO talk about family and luurve, and the impact of this exchange.

Then let her stew, ........................ slowly, stirring gently occasionally.

This is her monkey. Leave it on her back, and don't let her use your anger as a excuse, a backdoor so she can continue to evade the reality of the impact of her actions and beliefs and the indoctrination process she endorses.

PPS: If any TBMs are reading this, for me, this is the sort of spurious s#it Mos serve up with regularity, without any broader perspective on how abrasive, obnoxious and plain dumb it is. Please take some time out to look at yourselves and observe how deeply obnoxious you can appear to non-members when you engage in behaviour like this.

And ask yourself, how do Mormons get to be possess collectively such a low EQ?

Born Free

2nd May 2006, 06:48 PM

Nate -
IMO, the idea that we have to "earn" the right to see our loved ones in the hereafter is one of the most insidious manipulations employed by the Morg. Indoctrinating a six-year-old with that garbage is pretty low. Can't blame you one bit for reacting how you did.

But if your mom really believes that stuff, it must be hard for her thinking that you'll miss out on seeing your brother. The concept is so messed up, but her intentions may be good.
Wishing you peace.
elder_nomo,

Sorry, but I have to disagree on this one.

I have no doubt that within her belief system, the indoctriantion of her grandson is a good thing. She will see that as saving his soul for all Eternity.

But is that sufficient?

If she believes that the Gospel is for all, then surely she might (in an outbreak of maturity) consider how the non-Mo family members feel about this exchange, if she would really like them to look favourably towards the Church.

Non-Mo-Gran does not appear to get a moment's thought in all the above. In fact the indifference towards her, even has a sniff of passive-agressiveness about it for my money with the little data I have in front of me. It has a hint of 'your daughter has taken my son away from the Church. I will stitch you up you SOB'.

But then, such behaviour would never be exhibited by any assertive TBM woman I know! :rolleyes:

Good intentions are not enough. I have no doubt that Hitler's plan for European Jewry was paved with good intentions in his mind at least.

Daryl

lynsie

2nd May 2006, 09:47 PM

Nate,

PPS: If any TBMs are reading this, for me, this is the sort of spurious s#it Mos serve up with regularity, without any broader perspective on how abrasive, obnoxious and plain dumb it is. Please take some time out to look at yourselves and observe how deeply obnoxious you can appear to non-members when you engage in behaviour like this.
[/B]

Oh my God... The deepest prayer of my heart. Just to get through one holiday without being insulted, disrespected, and disregarded, and then look at like an irrational angry apostate if I show any outward sign of frustration. I'm sure you're all familiar with this rant, so I'll leave it here.

Born Free

2nd May 2006, 10:11 PM

Oh my God... The deepest prayer of my heart. Just to get through one holiday without being insulted, disrespected, and disregarded, and then look at like an irrational angry apostate if I show any outward sign of frustration. I'm sure you're all familiar with this rant, so I'll leave it here.
Lynsie,

Sorry to borrow a famous line 'They know not what they do', but they haven't a clue, and they haven't a clue that they haven't a clue.

Now what is capable of rendering otherwise intelligent human beings so insensitive, I am really fascinated to comprehend.

And I think we (Exmos) lose our bearings when exposed to this abusive behaviour some times. In the above exercise, it took me a while to say 'Hey, where the hell is the receiver of this childs remark in all this - their NonMo grandma?'

In this particular case, challenging the Lo-EQ-Mo grandma to try to empathise with the experience of the No-Mo grandma prevents us from providing a backdoor for the insensitive sons(&daughters)-of-Mos to excape out.

Daryl

elder_nomo

3rd May 2006, 03:50 PM

elder_nomo,

Sorry, but I have to disagree on this one.

I have no doubt that within her belief system, the indoctriantion of her grandson is a good thing. She will see that as saving his soul for all Eternity.

But is that sufficient?

If she believes that the Gospel is for all, then surely she might (in an outbreak of maturity) consider how the non-Mo family members feel about this exchange, if she would really like them to look favourably towards the Church.

Non-Mo-Gran does not appear to get a moment's thought in all the above. In fact the indifference towards her, even has a sniff of passive-agressiveness about it for my money with the little data I have in front of me. It has a hint of 'your daughter has taken my son away from the Church. I will stitch you up you SOB'.

But then, such behaviour would never be exhibited by any assertive TBM woman I know! :rolleyes:

Good intentions are not enough. I have no doubt that Hitler's plan for European Jewry was paved with good intentions in his mind at least.

Daryl
Hi Daryl -
Yeah, I see. You're right, good intentions are not enough. I didn't mean to excuse the poor behaviour.
Just thinking that her possible good intentions might be a mitigating factor in how Nate receives it and deals with it. As you suggested, if he expresses anger, there is a good chance the anger will be totally misinterpreted.
But the rudeness to non-mo-grandma is pretty ugly.

bobcat

3rd May 2006, 08:45 PM

Nate, my heart goes out to you and anyone else whose families make such insensitive comments. I see your response as, if not justified, at least excusable. I try to avoid getting tangled up in heated conversations like that, but it's really hard.

Just this sunday, I was at my parents' house for dinner/laundry. I was watching Family Guy and other "inappropriate" shows, when the phone at the house rang, and it was for me. It was my superMo grandparents, the ones who have, between them, held a half-dozen positions of importance in the church (mission pres, temple pres, General relief society presidency, etc). They occasionally try calling my on my cell phone, but I never answer. So they called me at my parents' house, and there was no escaping.

They made small talk about my law school choice (U of Illinois, btw, in case I forgot to tell everyone). Then asked me about the family reunion to Nauvoo this summer. My grandparents are taking the entire extended family to Nauvoo in June for a week. I had already communicated to them twice, through my parents, that I am NOT going on the trip. So they called and asked me to reconsider. I told them no again. They told me they weren't going to try and twist my arm and get me to go. But then they "reminded" me that I'll be the only member of the extended family (besides missionaries) that isn't going to be there. They "reminded" me of how great it will be to all go to the temple as a family. They suggested I pray about it and jesus will tell me what I should do (which, of course, would be telling me to go). They told me that they wanted to go the temple with me this summer sometime. Needless to say, I was VERY pissed when I hung up the phone.

The next day, over lunch, I frankly asked my mom how much my grandparents know about my attitude towards religion. She said she doesn't know how many details they know, but she does know that they are aware that I'm not active in the church anymore, and haven't been for sometime. That pissed me off: they KNOW that I have nothing to do with Mo Inc, and still talk to me as if I was praying daily to Joseph Smith. Few things worse than seeing someone that is so brash about their beliefs, that they refuse to acknowledge that you don't agree with them.

Bah, I'm done with my rant now. On an interesting note, over lunch, I also found out that my uncle, who used to be gay but was "fixed", had been seperated from my aunt for YEARS without much of the family knowing about it. I was about 13-16 when that happened, and I didn't know about it. Talk about a great coverup. When your family's reputation is so dependent on your "rep" within Mo Inc, you'll go to great lengths to keep that.

I also had my Mom tell me to my face that even though she doesn't agree with my choice of religious attitudes, she isn't going to "let a silly thing like religion ruin important family relationships". That made me happy. I'm glad at least some people within Mo Inc have the right perspective, that bonds of family and friendship should transcend what brand of dogma we buy into.

Still, I can't wait to be in Illinois, where I know few people, and no one gives a shit about my family's "rep" within Mormonism. It will be nice to have religion be mostly a non-issue.

nate

4th May 2006, 10:42 AM

They made small talk about my law school choice (U of Illinois, btw, in case I forgot to tell everyone). Then asked me about the family reunion to Nauvoo this summer. My grandparents are taking the entire extended family to Nauvoo in June for a week. I had already communicated to them twice, through my parents, that I am NOT going on the trip. So they called and asked me to reconsider. I told them no again. They told me they weren't going to try and twist my arm and get me to go. But then they "reminded" me that I'll be the only member of the extended family (besides missionaries) that isn't going to be there. They "reminded" me of how great it will be to all go to the temple as a family. They suggested I pray about it and jesus will tell me what I should do (which, of course, would be telling me to go). They told me that they wanted to go the temple with me this summer sometime. Needless to say, I was VERY pissed when I hung up the phone.

I feel you on this one, bobcat.

My family usually holds a big family reunion once every summer, or at least twice every 3 years. They are usually pretty nice, actually. Premise has always been just to simply be together, not so much go to the temple together (although it does happen). We usually pick great locations, like Lake Tahoe, and rent out a lodge or something similar for a week, and just generally enjoy each others' company; outdoor activities, games, etc. It's been sort of a family tradition for decades and only rarely have all the few post-mos in the family not attended.

As many of you know, I have a new 10 week old baby girl, and live out of state, away from family. I was looking forward to the reunion this summer as an excellent opportunity to let the entire family meet my daughter in one location at one time. However, plans have since changed after learning that the location this year will be at a place called, (are you ready?)...

Camp Zarahemla.
"A resort featuring cabins, lodges and campsites, for those of the Mormon faith."

:Puking

Sorry, but not gonna do it. Do you think they'd all show up if I had planned the reunion and picked a place called The Agnostic Lodge or something similar? No way. As far as I know, my other post-mo family feel the exact same way and also will not be attending.

It's just incredibly disappointing to see the complete and utter disregard for the feelings of the few family members that don't fit in. What arrogance and insensitivity. I am Jack's complete lack of empathy.

While at the same time, I don't go visit my parent's house and put my beer in their fridge. Before I quit smoking I would walk out and smoke in the middle of the road so as not to be on their property (sometimes even down the street to the park)...because I knew they didn't like it. I don't put "offensive" music in their cd player. Hell, when my mother came down to visit just after my daughter was born, I took her beliefs into consideration....in MY house! I didn't bring home alcoholic beverages while she was there, for I knew it would upset her. I didn't watch R-rated movies, for I knew it would upset her.

I don't invite them to hang out with me at the bar, or at a rock concert; why can't they extend the same courtesy? It appears that, for TBMs, religion DOES trump family.

Unfortunately.

Nate

nate

4th May 2006, 10:59 AM

Thanks everyone for your comments. They truly are helpful.

After hanging up the phone with my mother, and telling my wife about it, i started walking towards the computer. She glanced at me and said,

"Go post on the postmormon boards; it always makes you feel better."

How thankful I am that she understands me. For a nevermo, she truly does a remarkable job at viewing inside my postmo brain.

And how thankful I am for you here. At times like that, it truly is therapeutic to sit down and participate in this community. Ironically, you've all been here for the times that I needed family to talk to, but no family that could ever comprehend what I had to say. This site truly is serving a purpose. I bury my testimony of it. :D

Nate

dogzilla

4th May 2006, 12:02 PM

How thankful I am that she understands me. For a nevermo, she truly does a remarkable job at viewing inside my postmo brain.

And how thankful I am for you here. At times like that, it truly is therapeutic to sit down and participate in this community. Ironically, you've all been here for the times that I needed family to talk to, but no family that could ever comprehend what I had to say. This site truly is serving a purpose. I bury my testimony of it. :D

Nate

She is pretty cool.

I wanted to echo the exact same sentiment. As a couple of you know, there was a brief blip where there was a boy in my life for just a few minutes last week. During one of the initial getting-to-know-you conversations, I alluded to "I used to be a Mormon." For that, I got a raised eyebrow, but that little factoid didn't really mean anything to him at all, so it wasn't discussed. It is really nice to have a place to post to and work these things out in your own head, while getting feedback from people to whom it does mean something. It helps to put my own shit into context when you guys understand the context, if that makes any sense at all.

Oh, but this:

I am Jack's complete lack of empathy.

I totally lolled! I read that book on the way home from Arizona, while I was stuck for 30 hours in Memphis. Good one. (That's from Fight Club by Chuck Palahniuk if you didn't catch the reference.)

:: high fives nate ::

peter_mary

4th May 2006, 01:31 PM

However, plans have since changed after learning that the location this year will be at a place called, (are you ready?)...

Camp Zarahemla.
"A resort featuring cabins, lodges and campsites, for those of the Mormon faith."

:Puking

Sorry, but not gonna do it.
Nate
Gosh, Nate, I can't understand your reluctance to go to Camp Mythical-Reference-to-a-Mythical-Place-That-Never-Existed. I went to their website and found their Mission Statement, and thought I'd share it here, so everyone could see for themselves the joyful and happy place that this camp really is [as Dave Barry would say, I am NOT making this up! http://www.campzarahemla.org/mission_statement.htm ].

Mission Statement of Camp Zarahemla

Our purpose is to …
develop, maintain and treat this special area, which has been dedicated for the work of the Lord, as a Mountain of the Lord, [WTF?] as a place of peace and solitude in which primarily LDS families and groups can temporarily escape from worldly influences [in other words, Nate, so your family can escape from YOU, brother!] to:

* feel the Spirit of the Lord,

* appreciate the majesty and beauty of the Lord's handiwork, and preserve and protect the natural beauty and spirit of the camp,

* develop deeper testimonies of the Book of Mormon,

* ponder their relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ,

* worship the Lord, learn of Christ, and come unto Christ,

* bring others to Christ,

* recreate in a wholesome, safe, spirit-filled outdoor environment,

* increase the bonds of love between family members, and

* turn LDS participants’ minds to the Lord’s holy temples.
So golly-gee, Nate, why would you be reluctant to go to such a wholesome, happy, smiley place as this?

Oh-my-hell...is that about the LEAST enticing advertisement for a camp ground? Nate, buddy, I'm afraid I'd have to do just as you are doing...stay the HELL away from a place like THAT!

nate

4th May 2006, 01:50 PM

Oh-my-hell...is that about the LEAST enticing advertisement for a camp ground? Nate, buddy, I'm afraid I'd have to do just as you are doing...stay the HELL away from a place like THAT!

Haha. Yeah, I told my brothers that I would go this place only after my TBM Mother goes to a Tool concert.

hehe.

Dedicated as a Mountain of the Lord? Are they just making that crap up, or is that an actual dedication? Anyone?

Beuler? Beuler?

dogzilla

4th May 2006, 02:11 PM

"... come unto Christ."

:: snerk ::

:D

(I have been known to call out His name a time or two...)

lynsie

4th May 2006, 06:20 PM

Wow. And I thought my hubbies TBM family reunion at the historic family ranch in Rexburg was bad...

lunaverse

5th May 2006, 12:12 PM

Gosh, Nate, I can't understand your reluctance to go to Camp Mythical-Reference-to-a-Mythical-Place-That-Never-Existed. I went to their website and found their Mission Statement, and thought I'd share it here, so everyone could see for themselves the joyful and happy place that this camp really is [as Dave Barry would say, I am NOT making this up! http://www.campzarahemla.org/mission_statement.htm ].

I totally went to this camp for Girls Camp every summer, except the first year when we went to Camp Ensign along I90.

Aside from the Yellow Jacket infestation, it wasn't a bad camp. That's where we Adventurers were teaching the Mountaineers first aid, and me and these other two girls were at the "Snake Bite Kit" station, and one of the girls got this idea to squeeze the snake sucker thing and stick it to her skin, and so we were all doing that, and for some reason her skin was more sensative, and she got hickies ALL over her neck and face.

However, there were still a LOT of "spiritual" experiences, so beware!

Luna

flotsam

5th May 2006, 02:01 PM

I am Jacks' complete lack of empathy.

I totally lolled! I read that book on the way home from Arizona, while I was stuck for 30 hours in Memphis. Good one. (That's from Fight Club by Chuck Palahniuk if you didn't catch the reference.)

:: high fives nate ::

The movie for Fight Club, done by one of my favorite directors David Fincher (of Seven fame) really rocks. I got it as an action flick and found myself actually forced to THINK.

Bait and switch.