Concerned about joining now.

[registry]

It's been a slow process with me (as in several years), but I've been very slowly migrating over to possibly giving serious consideration to exploring/embracing the LDS church. I haven't been to the ward yet for my local community, but I have an LDS friend (we've talked a bunch), and I've probably met up with half a dozen elders over time. In fact, 2 of them just visited yesterday. Just when I start to think that maybe I should try and make an increased exploration/commitment, I stumble upon this site (and others)...now I'm almost depressed about it.

Here's my view: I've never run into a "bad egg" Mormon. All live upstanding lives, have solid family values (although I'm single), and never seem to be hypocrits, as you find in other religions. Do they have some unusual practices? Yes, as I'm finding. But I'm not sure how this exactly detracts from the merit or the caliber of the LDS people that I've run across. I live in Idaho, so there's no shortage of the people that I've met. Also, I've never really been religious, although I certainly believe in God. I was beginning to think that this may be the right direction. Now I'm not sure...

What do you guys think? Set aside all the "myth" and "mystery" of the LDS practices, and think more about the people that you've met and gained in friendship. Is this all a fraud? Am I about to get swept into something that will be a nightmare? I just can't seem to think how all this is a fraud...everyone appear to be such good people...and I can be pretty critical. It's hard for me to imagine that this many people could be fooled and swept into something that isn't legitimate. Very prominent, intelligent, and well read people are quite high up in the LDS church...ALL VOLUNTEERING their time! How could they be fooled or why would they waste their time? The LDS church even donates a significant amount of money and resources helping organizations that aren't in any way even affiliated with the religion. That says a lot in my book. As a result, I thought this was going to be a good opportunity to maybe expand my horizons, meet some really good people (maybe even a partner), and make a valid contribution to the LDS church/community. Should I quit thinking about joining? Or??

A little bummed out...
John

[Born Free]

It's been a slow process with me (as in several years), but I've been very slowly migrating over to possibly giving serious consideration to exploring/embracing the LDS church. I haven't been to the ward yet for my local community, but I have an LDS friend (we've talked a bunch), and I've probably met up with half a dozen elders over time. In fact, 2 of them just visited yesterday. Just when I start to think that maybe I should try and make an increased exploration/commitment, I stumble upon this site (and others)...now I'm almost depressed about it.

Here's my view: I've never run into a "bad egg" Mormon. All live upstanding lives, have solid family values (although I'm single), and never seem to be hypocrits, as you find in other religions. Do they have some unusual practices? Yes, as I'm finding. But I'm not sure how this exactly detracts from the merit or the caliber of the LDS people that I've run across. I live in Idaho, so there's no shortage of the people that I've met. Also, I've never really been religious, although I certainly believe in God. I was beginning to think that this may be the right direction. Now I'm not sure...

What do you guys think? Set aside all the "myth" and "mystery" of the LDS practices, and think more about the people that you've met and gained in friendship. Is this all a fraud? Am I about to get swept into something that will be a nightmare? I just can't seem to think how all this is a fraud...everyone appear to be such good people...and I can be pretty critical. It's hard for me to imagine that this many people could be fooled and swept into something that isn't legitimate. Very prominent, intelligent, and well read people are quite high up in the LDS church...ALL VOLUNTEERING their time! How could they be fooled or why would they waste their time? The LDS church even donates a significant amount of money and resources helping organizations that aren't in any way even affiliated with the religion. That says a lot in my book. As a result, I thought this was going to be a good opportunity to maybe expand my horizons, meet some really good people (maybe even a partner), and make a valid contribution to the LDS church/community. Should I quit thinking about joining? Or??

A little bummed out...
John

There is an old saying re marriage - Marry in haste, repent at your leisure!

That saying is eminently portable to Mormonism. (I guess that would make it Mormon at haste.....)

I would suggest you read widely and well before putting your foot in that pond :eek: . Don't be content with teh candy-coated version of Moism that the Missionaries offer. Most are kids, wet behind the ears, who haven't even worked out which way is up yet.

But, if the showcase families fantasy offered by Mormonism appeals, and that is as complex and you want to get with your analysis, go for it. Sure worked for my parent's about 45 years ago. The fact that I am still trying to clean up teh mess that glossed over, is beside the point.

BTW, do you figure "Bad Egg" Mormons come with a big sign on their forehead? Mormons specialise in "Nice", that is their self-concept. Just check out one of their former leaders (now deceased) by the name of Paul H Dunn who got by for years telling heart-rending and inspirational stories of his war service during WW11.

Only trouble is ex servicemen (I am one) get really pissed with guys who fake their military service credentials and this guy was fake-central, not that he didn't serve, but got very 'liberal' with the truth when retelling his stories. Go Google "Paul H Dunn" and get a glimpse of the wholesomeness that Mormonism finds acceptable.

[mutleydog]

It took me a good couple of years 'investigating' the church before I was baptised. I say 'investigating', but what I mean is, in the mormon sense of the word. Lots of missionary discussions, going to meetings and even going to church for a year. I loved the sense of 'family' and the way people made you feel special. I was quite vulnerable at the time....my home life wasn't ideal....living with a father that suffered with schizophrenia was quite unnerving. The mormon church gave me what i needed at the time..."family". I embraced the gospel, though at first i found the WoW difficult.......

I wished I had properly investigated the church......read lots, made the time to think things through objectively etc. The friend who introduced me to the church, left a couple of years after i joined. i couldn't believe it! She seemed so strong! Her sister left too.....and a few other YSA adults that I hung around with also left. Maybe alarm bells should have rang at that point, but they didn't. It was a few years later that they did......there's too many incidences to go into.......I used to work alot with the missionaries and that was an eye opener, especially the things I was told about the missionary training centre and the way they conducted their work.

I just want to make it clear, that its not necessarily the people that are "bad eggs", its the church and the authorities itself. But as sturdgw said, people don't necessarilty go around with big signs on their heads, and just because they are mormons doesn't mean they don't make mistakes or are not as fallible as everyone else! Believe, once your, you will very quickly but without realising it fall into the mormon way of thinking - there is no room for deviation. As a convert, I found this hard and it totallly screwed my head - trying to conform to that which I didn't wholly agree with, but felt that it was the right thing to do was unhealthy. It took me a long time before I finally left the church - when I tried, psychologically it was difficult - the hold it had over me was overwhelming and not in a healthy way either - fear is a strong emotion. I never thought the church was like that - it was only when I wanted to leave I realised the conditioning it had over me. Believe me, since leaving I cannot tell you how free I feel......the church on the outside (what they choose to tell you) is far different from the reality that is hidden in its depths.....looking back, I find the whole thing very sinister and sometimes my heart aches for those friends I still care deeply about who are still members......I want them to share in my freedom too!!

I think I have rambled on, on.......its all probably very disjointed, so i hope it makes some sense.

[ifitmakesuhappy]

It's been a slow process with me (as in several years), but I've been very slowly migrating over to possibly giving serious consideration to exploring/embracing the LDS church. I haven't been to the ward yet for my local community, but I have an LDS friend (we've talked a bunch), and I've probably met up with half a dozen elders over time. In fact, 2 of them just visited yesterday. Just when I start to think that maybe I should try and make an increased exploration/commitment, I stumble upon this site (and others)...now I'm almost depressed about it.

Here's my view: I've never run into a "bad egg" Mormon. All live upstanding lives, have solid family values (although I'm single), and never seem to be hypocrits, as you find in other religions. Do they have some unusual practices? Yes, as I'm finding. But I'm not sure how this exactly detracts from the merit or the caliber of the LDS people that I've run across. I live in Idaho, so there's no shortage of the people that I've met. Also, I've never really been religious, although I certainly believe in God. I was beginning to think that this may be the right direction. Now I'm not sure...

What do you guys think? Set aside all the "myth" and "mystery" of the LDS practices, and think more about the people that you've met and gained in friendship. Is this all a fraud? Am I about to get swept into something that will be a nightmare? I just can't seem to think how all this is a fraud...everyone appear to be such good people...and I can be pretty critical. It's hard for me to imagine that this many people could be fooled and swept into something that isn't legitimate. Very prominent, intelligent, and well read people are quite high up in the LDS church...ALL VOLUNTEERING their time! How could they be fooled or why would they waste their time? The LDS church even donates a significant amount of money and resources helping organizations that aren't in any way even affiliated with the religion. That says a lot in my book. As a result, I thought this was going to be a good opportunity to maybe expand my horizons, meet some really good people (maybe even a partner), and make a valid contribution to the LDS church/community. Should I quit thinking about joining? Or??

A little bummed out...
John


This is my opinion and im sure some people here will disagree with me...but thats ok cos we're allowed to have differing opinions now, Yippeeeee!! :D The church is full of good people...you are not wrong in admiring the way they choose to live. Of course there are lots of 'bad eggs' throughout the church, you will find that anywhere and I also know of lots of instants where the church has dealt badly with these 'bad egg' people. That cant be excused when the leaders are supposed to be lead by God. But they are in the end only humans as we are. I dont believe for a minute that all the members or leaders of the church are out to control you or to trap you. They are simply good people, living their lives the way they believe is right. I've recently come to realise that the members are being mislead, and that there are things in church history that put Joseph Smith's integrity in a whole different light. If all of the things i have read recently are true, then the church is founded on lies and cons, it gets into your head and controls you and makes impossible demands on members and then makes them feel guilty for not living up to the standard. The members are good people who have been trapped in this system. The belief that they are free because they make all the 'right' choices is something i find absurd...its like "you're free IF you do exactly as i tell you" (its a complete contradiction and i dont know how i ever didnt see it) Anyway i'm going away from my point...
Not so long back I was one of these mislead people so I know that they are genuine, as I was. they are genuine in their concern for you and your welfare. They will go out of their way to help you out if you need it. They are putting so much time and effort into doing things "right" that they dont have time to question their authorities or to find out the true history of the church. My advice would be to wait a while before committing to baptism and look into all this for yourself. Don't take too much advice from people on either side of the fence. This is a huge decision and something you must come to decide for yourself. You have to do what you feel in your heart is right for you. But if you do decide to embrace the mormon life, dont go into it blindly, and dont let anyone put you off doing your own research. It is anyones right to question anything at all. it doesnt have to be all done through faith. It wouldn't be a sin to find out the facts before you decide. Let us know how you get on in your decision. Good luck and best wished to you. Julia :)

[mutleydog]

This is my opinion and im sure some people here will disagree with me...but thats ok cos we're allowed to have differing opinions now, Yippeeeee!! :D The church is full of good people...you are not wrong in admiring the way they choose to live. Of course there are lots of 'bad eggs' throughout the church, you will find that anywhere and I also know of lots of instants where the church has dealt badly with these 'bad egg' people. That cant be excused when the leaders are supposed to be lead by God. But they are in the end only humans as we are. I dont believe for a minute that all the members or leaders of the church are out to control you or to trap you. They are simply good people, living their lives the way they believe is right. I've recently come to realise that the members are being mislead, and that there are things in church history that put Joseph Smith's integrity in a whole different light. If all of the things i have read recently are true, then the church is founded on lies and cons, it gets into your head and controls you and makes impossible demands on members and then makes them feel guilty for not living up to the standard. The members are good people who have been trapped in this system. The belief that they are free because they make all the 'right' choices is something i find absurd...its like "you're free IF you do exactly as i tell you" (its a complete contradiction and i dont know how i ever didnt see it) Anyway i'm going away from my point...
Not so long back I was one of these mislead people so I know that they are genuine, as I was. they are genuine in their concern for you and your welfare. They will go out of their way to help you out if you need it. They are putting so much time and effort into doing things "right" that they dont have time to question their authorities or to find out the true history of the church. My advice would be to wait a while before committing to baptism and look into all this for yourself. Don't take too much advice from people on either side of the fence. This is a huge decision and something you must come to decide for yourself. You have to do what you feel in your heart is right for you. But if you do decide to embrace the mormon life, dont go into it blindly, and dont let anyone put you off doing your own research. It is anyones right to question anything at all. it doesnt have to be all done through faith. It wouldn't be a sin to find out the facts before you decide. Let us know how you get on in your decision. Good luck and best wished to you. Julia :)

Thats excellent advice!! Totally agree with you.....thats the sort of thing I was trying to say, but ended up in a ramble and in no way came out as succinct as that. thank you!! :)

[dogzilla]

I think, as you continue to read threads on this site, and others set up to help post- and ex-mormons "recover" from their experiences within the church, you will find that the friendships in many instances turned out to be very superficial and meaningless.

Case in point: My parents (in Ohio) lived for years in one town, attending the same ward. They knew everybody. Then they moved to another town 45 miles away. They didn't seem to be able to make many friends there. They thought the people in the new ward were mostly rich, stuck up types, and they thought the new ward was rather cliquish. Then they moved back to the original town and the original ward. Some of the faces have changed and people who they thought had abandoned them were suddenly their best buds again. It's all a shallow mockery of true friendship. There's too much guilt, shame and self-righteous one-upmanship to foster an environment condusive to real, lifelong-lasting friendships.

Your mileage may vary, of course. But I think you'd do well to avoid baptism, adopt whatever practices you like in your own personal lifestyle and chuck the rest.

[peter_mary]

Should I quit thinking about joining? Or??

A little bummed out...
John

John,

There's the nugget of your whole post, right there. "Should I quit thinking...?" There is an axiom in the Church that is brandished with regularity, made popular by Boyd K. Packer (I believe, though it could have been another apostle), that simply says, "When the Prophet has spoken, the thinking has been done." In a nutshell, that simply says that as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you are obligated to subjugate your own thinking, your own reason, even your own personal spiritual experiences to the dictates of the Church hierarchy. That's powerful stuff, and for me, it pushed me out the door. I don't claim to have the corner on the market when it comes to figuring stuff out, but I demand the right and privlege to make decisions for myself, based on what I happen to believe is in my own best interest and that of my family, rather than what is in the best interest of a billion dollar corporation. So the question you should be asking is, "Am I willing to deny my individuality to become one of the bees of the proverbial hive?" Your answer to that might be "yes," and that's really okay. Just know that that's what you're signing up for. And know that once you're in, it's HARD to get out. Painfully hard, as this site attests to.

Now that being said, your general assessment of Mormon people is accurate. Your average Mormon is good, well-intentioned, hard-working and self-sacrificing person. Those who would fellowship you into the Church genuinely believe that it is for your eternal salvation, and they want that for you. As a model for religious living, Mormonism "works" as well for some people as other models work for others. That's part of the reason there are so many different faiths; there are so many different kinds of people. The clean-cut, smiley, happy-family look of the Church is partly true. But it is also, like most things in life, partly false. Part of the mythology of the Church is that people are "happier" in the Church than out. The fact is, there ARE happy people in the Church...and there are happy people out of the Church. The fact is, there ARE intelligent, well-read people in the Church...and there are intelligent, well-read people out of the Church. Whatever you see IN the Church, if you look, you'll see out of the Church as well.

Here's what it boils down to for me. What are you looking for? Are you looking for the restored gospel, founded on principles of truth as revealed in the Book of Mormon and the teachings of a modern Prophet? Because if that's what you think you've stumbled on, I strongly encourage you to explore deeper, and I would be happy to point you to respected resources on the subject. The Church will not teach you the truth of their origin. You won't find it in the Missionary lessons, in Sunday School, from your friends or in Fast and Testimony meeting. For the most part, they don't KNOW the truth of their origin, and I know that sounds "dumb" to members of the Church, who believe they know their history better than any other Church...but remember, the Soviets under Stallin thought they knew their history, too. They only knew what Stallin wanted them to know...and Mormons are the same way. They only know what the Church wants them to know. Can you see how self-serving that is? It protects the institution at the gross expense of the individuals. That was unacceptable to me.

But there are good Mormons who have investigated all of that, and who, for whatever reason, choose to associate with the Church because it works for them. They like its emphasis on family, they like how involved they feel, and frankly, they like having a rigorous spiritual framework that keeps them focused on the things they feel are important. My hat is off to those rare souls, because I believe that they are Mormons for the right reasons. I also believe that most Mormons are Mormons because they don't know any other way to be. It is the air they breath, and they don't even know it's there. It is the only world-view to which they have ever been exposed, and nothing else makes sense to them.

Don't quit thinking, and DON'T let a bunch of apostates make up your mind for you. :D Study the Church before you join, know its virtues and its hidden secrets (they aren't that hidden from anyone except Church members...), and go into your decision with your eyes wide open. If you choose to join, do so with awareness of your motives, and embrace your new family. If you choose not to, then learn from that experience, too.

And we'd all be very curious to know how this goes for you. Please know that your journey is safe with us (well, I can't speak for the individuals, but PostMormon.com is a safe place generally for people to talk about their experiences), and so I sincerely hope you feel free to bring your concerns and questions to the forum. I just hope you aren't afraid of what you might hear!

Enjoy the journey, John, it's what life is really all about.

Paul

[silverfox]

Reply to Registry - your post was quite notstaligic for me. I remember well the very warm feelings while investigating the church. The attention, the acceptance, the encouragement. Oh I wanted to be a part of it so badly!!!!!! I loved what they offered. Family. A path to learning more about God, the hereafter, answers to many questions I had abour life, etc, etc, etc. I didn't do "in depth" research. Of course back then (mid 70s) there was no internet, information was not available at my fingertips. Also, I figured it's a church based on Christ's teachings. How bad can it be? Like most other churches I've attended (Catholic, Baptisit, etc) but this one was different because they were the only TRUE church and professed to be!

Immediately after my baptism, the home visits stopped. No more "attention". I was on my own. Well, that's okay, because they are doing the lord's work and had to shift the attention to others who were trying to find their way into God's kingdom. And I joined them in doing just that. And I've had a few acquaintances and friends join because of my influence. Also immediately after my membership I started to learn about temple ordinances, polygamy, etc, etc. Some was disturbing and no one would provide answers or additional information.

It wasn't until a few years into my membership that I really started to become uncomfortable with what I was learning. The history of racism, polygamy, blood atonement (be sure to research that one), Mountain Meadow Massacre, polyandry, even how the Word of Wisdom came about, etc. Most to do with history. The church has come a long way. But what is bothersome is that they will NEVER EVER NEVER EVER admit that mistakes and bad judgements were made by former or present "prophets", leaders, members, etc. Mistakes and judgements that hvae cost many innocent people (men, women and children) their lives. For them to not be able to admit that they were and are capable of mistakes is unacceptable to me. I find it arrogant, cocky and unChristianlike. Disturbing. Because even today there are innocent victims as you've probably read regarding how depression, abuse, etc are handled by most leaders. And no one within the church will admit they were WRONG and try to "right" it. This is my biggest issue with the church.

I don't believe it is the only true church. I believe one can find peace and acceptance and encouragement within any one of the many religions out there. I don't believe the "prophet" can communicate with a God any better than I can myself. I don't need a "middleman" to communicate between me and God. The prophet doesn't know me, my family, my challenges...who is he to say what is best for me?

I think you should do what you feel comfortable doing. I admire that you are taking time to research and learn all you can before making the committment. Even if you never join - if the Mormons you are associating with are sincere about their concern for you they will still be there to fellowship you, embrace you and love you unconditionally, right? What are you losing if you don't join? What are you gaining if you do? Why can't you still be a part of what the Mormons have to offer without making a committment to them? Why can't you still find true love within the Mo community just because you aren't a member? Cementing your membership in stone isn't a guarantee of all the wonderful things you desire from the Mormon community. If these members are truly your friends, truly care and love you unconditionally they will still be there either way.

I agree with all the other responses. There are bad eggs everywhere, every culture, every class, every religion, job, etc.

My advice, don't do anything you are not 100% comfortable with. Of course you will be told it is Satan that is placing doubts in your mind and that researching even truths about the church that do not portray it as less than perfect will be considered antiMormon.

Peace and happiness to you regardless of what you decide.

[silverfox]

John,

And we'd all be very curious to know how this goes for you. Please know that your journey is safe with us (well, I can't speak for the individuals, but PostMormon.com is a safe place generally for people to talk about their experiences), and so I sincerely hope you feel free to bring your concerns and questions to the forum. I just hope you aren't afraid of what you might hear!

Enjoy the journey, John, it's what life is really all about.

Paul

Yes, Registry, we'd love to know where your journey takes you.

Paul, you never cease to amaze me. :)

[gracie]

I second all that has been said already. I hope you take this opportunity to look at all sides of the issue before making a commitment that, as has been mentioned, will be extrememely difficult to change or leave behind you. IMHO, The LDS church is no better or worse that most churches out there. There are alot of great people who chooseto continue to associate themselves with the church and have generally happy lives. I was born and raised in the church and my family of origin is one of those "happy" families. The greatest dangers in the church in my experience are:
1. The prevailing belief, drilled into everyone's head, that it is the one and only TRUE church of God, it alone can bring you happiness and nowhere else is there any truth of value. Expressions of spirituality from any other source are seriously frowned upon.
2. The overwhelming belief that Priesthood holders have a direct link to God, and their opinions (revelation) trumps everyone else's. As a women, I will never have to last word, if a priesthood holder has a conviction that differs from mine, his word will be accepted. It's not your word against mine, the priesthood holder always has the upper hand.
3. A pollyanna attitude to all of life's problems. Just pray and you'll be ok. In my happy family of origin, with parents who were always smiling and holding down numerous church callings and knew everyone and were paragons of virtue, all three of the women were sexually abused as children and and all 5 children deal with severe depression, including suicidal episodes. The problem was not that we had problems (that's normal) the problem was the lack of any kind of support system. Instead of talking about issues and problems, we hid them and when they finally could be hid no longer, the church leaders and teachings shamed us, hid the truth, and furthered victimized us. If it wasn't "God's true church", I would have sought out secular help much sooner and been spared years of pain.
4. The leaders,right up to the "Prophet",create an atmosphere of fear of the outside world. Therapists cannot be trusted, the government is going to hell in a handbasket, non'member friends can lead you away from the happiness and peace of the gospel; everything "outside" is suspect.
I am realizing that I could go on and on! I will end by saying that although my husband and I were raised in the church our whole lives (and his family actually was pretty happy!), we will not subject our children to such close mindedness. They deserve to make decisions for their own lives free of spiritual manipulation and coersion and grow to be adults capable of making their own choices instead of checking to see with "the brethren" think about any given issue. Life has enough challenges without adding unnecessary guilt for imagined sins, and as parents we feel that we can give our children wholesome values (the good aspects of the church) without putting them through the negative aspects of the church; you'll dicover those on your own, if you don't "quit thinking"!!
Best of luck, whatever you choose, I know many people who make their experience in the church work for them, I know many who chose a different path and are equally as happy, if not more so.
Gracie

[nate]

Here's my view: I've never run into a "bad egg" Mormon.


Here are some things to ponder:

"Never mistake what is being sold with the actual product."

Have you ever seen a broken down Ford on a Ford commercial?

"If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is."

How would you know if you DID run into a "bad egg" Mormon?

and most importantly:

If you're going to devote 100% of your life to something, first believe in it 100%.

[noodle]

Don't quit thinking, and DON'T let a bunch of apostates make up your mind for you. :D Study the Church before you join, know its virtues and its hidden secrets (they aren't that hidden from anyone except Church members...), and go into your decision with your eyes wide open. If you choose to join, do so with awareness of your motives, and embrace your new family. If you choose not to, then learn from that experience, too.

And we'd all be very curious to know how this goes for you. Please know that your journey is safe with us (well, I can't speak for the individuals, but PostMormon.com is a safe place generally for people to talk about their experiences), and so I sincerely hope you feel free to bring your concerns and questions to the forum. I just hope you aren't afraid of what you might hear!

Enjoy the journey, John, it's what life is really all about.

Paul[/QUOTE]

Incredibly well-stated, Paul. I was attracted by the good things stated by the others. I have many relatives who are members, and even a son who is an active member. They are wonderful people and I love them dearly.

You may want to consider attending for awhile as a non-member. I now know that it would have been OK for me to do just that, but I was pressured into thinking that I had to join. Explain to the bishop that you need time to decide.

Janet

[registry]

All, thank you for your responses. VERY informative indeed. It really makes me think...a lot. Also, I appreciate the way that you all are approaching my concerns with personal examples. It's certainly a different perspective.

In advance, I'm going to warn that I'm going to touch on a few areas that may be getting a bit too philosophical or "out there"...but it might help to define some of my thinking on this whole matter. Some of the stuff may evoke strong opinions. But your patience, in advance, is appreciated. Also, none of what I'm about to write comes from any elder or anyone other than from my own thoughts.

As for some more about me, I believe that I'm reasonably well read regarding current issues, quite skeptical and alert for people that are trying to take advantage, and relatively strong willed regarding my opinions. I usually never make big commitments without a thorough analysis of it's future impact.

However, as I read and study all the responses, one aspect keeps coming to mind...why would the church feel the need to be so guarded? Specifically, what's "in it for them" to isolate or shelter their members from different perspectives? And even more importantly, are they REALLY sheltering their members, or are they simply choosing to separate themselves from negative influences? For example, I can certainly sympathize with parents that wish to keep a leash on their kids and protecting them from bad influences. My parents were very protective and proactive in educating me (and my siblings) on the POTENTIAL hazards of associating with certain people or bad influences (druggies in school, people that steal, kids that had tattoes before age 16, getting in cars with people that have been drinking, the birds and the bees, etc). Too, all of this guidance could have certainly been construed as "sheltering" or "propagandizing" or even "mind bending" if the hazards were in fact not true. Yet they were true, and parents can't be present 24 hours a day, so blanketing or even to the extent that parents strike some level of fear in their kids and the subjects could be regarded as simply good parenting. I'm mature and independent enough to now understand this.

This brings me to the LDS church and their intentions. As I look around this country, I see a lot of very disappointing things taking place. Please understand that this is my opinion only, and it is absolutely not my intention to offend, as I love all my fellow countrymen, regardless of color, background, religious sect, or diversity of thought. But clearly, without getting too much into politics, I see a total breakdown in family values, a rampant lack of personal responsibility with an ever growing populace demanding things that haven't been earned, a completely backwards approach towards public service as politicians stuff their pockets and expand the government well beyond our grossly over taxed pocket books, illegal immigrants flooding the country with reckless abandon and without regard or respect to our nation, surly non-responsive "I've got a right to not be friendly to you" customer service people, and a general degradation of our society as a whole. From policemen being thrown in jail for vigorously enforcing the law while criminals go free, to our military soldiers being criminalized when they step out of line in the slightest as they fight a war against savage animals that cut off heads, to bums on the street unwilling to work, or the broken down roads and public parks being littered with trash; somehow our country has definitely taken a turn for the land of Dr. Suess where everything that SHOULD be is NOT. I believe that our country is in an accelerated decline, and one day we'll either be gone, or wake up and only reminisce about the days when were once a great nation. Unfortunately, it may be sooner than any of us could ever imagine. Wheeewwwww...that was a bunch to lay on the table, and what does ANY of this have to do with my decision to join the LDS church???? To answer that, is to ask what institutional fix is there to this wrong direction? Although I'm a very firm believer in the separation of church and state, maybe the LDS church is simply doing their part to "build from the home" the values necessary to take our country forward in a much more positive way. Maybe when they "shelter" they are simply being good "parents."
[Ref: Too, all of this guidance could have certainly been construed as "sheltering" or "propagandizing" or even "mind bending" if the hazards were in fact not true. Yet they [are] true, and [the church] can't be present 24 hours a day, so blanketing or even to the extent that [the church] strike some level of fear in their [followers] and the above subjects could be regarded as simply good [churching]. Already, I know that some of you may say the big difference is that you're a free thinking adult, and not a child. I agree...to an extent, but the populace as a whole is easily swayed to literally sign away their own freedoms, as witnessed with the people we put in office, and the trash we continually "buy" from our politicians, and the non-sense that we regulary accept regarding our laws, our borders, and our criminal justice system...to cite just a few. Realistically, it IS tough to not get caught up or even "give up" unless you have some sort of influence, and occassionally guidance and support, from like minded people. That's what the church DOES. It provides a venue, by outlining "prescribed values" to attract like minded people with the goal of giving people a legitimate venue to live their lives and practice their beliefs in the hopes that we will ALL be better in the future. Every church has it's own "technique" and idiosynchrasies that make it unique...some more excentric than others.

A cult, on the otherhand, heavily conditions and brain washes it's followers usually to gain extreme power over their bodies, minds, and/or wallet for deep personal gain for a tiny few at the very top.

How can we know if the LDS church is taking advantage and conditioning a large populace for similar gain? As I mentioned in my previous post, ONE litmus test I give the LDS church is how much do they do for others that have no affiliation WITH the church? I read in TIME magazine several years back that the LDS church is one of the biggest givers to non-LDS affiliated organizations in the world...unlike the Catholic church, or most other wealthy churches, that are selfish and narrow in their giving.

So this leads us to the money question...and the tything. I've never seen an article or expose on the LDS church regarding corruption of finances or paying off large beneficiaries, as I have in other religious organizations (Scientology comes to mind, as does Krishna, Billy Graham, Jim Bakker, and unfortunately even the Catholic Church). That's not to say that it doesn't exist or hasn't existed. But relative to other so called "legitimate" or mainstream religions I would say they have a FANTASTIC track record. I understand that they keep most of their finances confidential, but that doesn't necessarily raise a red flag for me, as I do the same myself. Additionally, for what purpose might they need to "open their books" anyway? Why SHOULD the government and general populace know? Will they spend it any better? Hardly, look at the government's track record. I'm sure the people that need to know, do know. However I appreciate that I could certainly be wrong. I could justify placing blind confidence in my money with like minded people before I could place confidence in giving to a whole lot of other people or institutions...including the Federal Government. Oh by the way, do you TRULY know exactly where the money is going when the government spends it? If the general populace truly knew, taxation would likely stop tomorrow.

The next test might be to inquire if they take advantage of people's bodies or minds for deep personal gain. So far, I haven't seen anything that suggests that. Of course examples are clear in the past of wrong doing regarding polygamy, and possible hypocrisy. But it wasn't so far in the past where we also had slaves. The Bible even speaks of polygamy regarding having up to 5 wives (I think?). Although it can be a crutch for the weak of mind, times do truly change, and so too do societal practices. Some things don't require rehashing to understand that they're wrong. Yet, I have only heard the LDS church condemn polygamy for the "modern day" LDS'er. They even "cleaned up" the rituals to make it less uncomfortable for their female members. I've never personally met a Mormon that has more than one wife, although I understand it does exist in some parts of Utah. Regardless, it seems clear that there is no institutional sexual malfesance at play like we have discovered in the Catholic Church in recent years (but that go back MANY years). Regarding the Mountain Meadow masacre, I will need to do some more research.

As for apologies to "wrongs of the past", I'm not convinced that it's necessary. There have been many "wrongs" that have gone unanswered both inside and outside churches, governments, and institutions...from corporations, military campaigns, and even individuals. What's the point? I don't see this as being a reason to invalidate the good works going forward of the LDS church. I guess, that in and of itself, doesn't give me the sort of pause that it might give other people.

Regarding some of the other insights that the previous posters have been kind enough to share with me, I find it most troubling about the lack of support that the church was willing to provide when sexual abuse was taking place. That does bother me. It also bothers me to discover a theme of shallow friendships present within the LDS church. That was one of the corner stones that makes the LDS church attractive to me, and may indicate some serious issues in my book. I probably sound like a real loner, as you read this, but in reality I have many friends...and I value them greatly, so I'm not exactly looking for some sort of validation regarding that. It just surprises me to hear about the potential shallowness because I just haven't gotten that impression from the Mormon's I have met.

In closing, it's probably obvious that I've been somewhat partial in this post to justifying the negatives, and not giving due weight and credence to past wrongs. So it might surprise you to know that, still, after reading all your posts, and writing this overly verbose post, I'm really thinking about giving a thumbs down to this whole LDS thing. But I'm willing to continue exploring. I think I must be missing something, and that worries me. It's clear that I'm not seeing the whole picture. Additionally, I'm slightly concerned that I haven't been picking up on the facade that you all so clearly see. It also worries me to hear how hard it is to make an exit from the LDS church after you have been "recruited." That smacks of being a cult. Finally, it did not go unnoticed when one of the posters mentioned the emphasis on recruiting, and emphasis on restoring exiting members back, but the church seemed to lose cohesion and focus once you became a member. Something about that isn't right...especially when you consider that they're supposed to have such a strong sense of community. "Keeping the minions" busy and preoccupied also is peculiar and potentially a red flag for me too.

If you've made it this far, thanks for reading my thoughts/rebuttal to all that you have presented.

I will keep you posted on what I decide.

Of course, I invite your comments...heated or otherwise.

John

[silverfox]

All, thank you for your responses. VERY informative indeed. It really makes me think...a lot. Also, I appreciate the way that you all are approaching my concerns with personal examples. It's certainly a different perspective.
Regarding some of the other insights that the previous posters have been kind enough to share with me, I find it most troubling about the lack of support that the church was willing to provide when sexual abuse was taking place. That does bother me. It also bothers me to discover a theme of shallow friendships present within the LDS church. That was one of the corner stones that makes the LDS church attractive to me, and may indicate some serious issues in my book. I probably sound like a real loner, as you read this, but in reality I have many friends...and I value them greatly, so I'm not exactly looking for some sort of validation regarding that. It just surprises me to hear about the potential shallowness because I just haven't gotten that impression from the Mormon's I have met.

In closing, it's probably obvious that I've been somewhat partial in this post to justifying the negatives, and not giving due weight and credence to past wrongs. So it might surprise you to know that, still, after reading all your posts, and writing this overly verbose post, I'm really thinking about giving a thumbs down to this whole LDS thing. But I'm willing to continue exploring. I think I must be missing something, and that worries me. It's clear that I'm not seeing the whole picture. Additionally, I'm slightly concerned that I haven't been picking up on the facade that you all so clearly see. It also worries me to hear how hard it is to make an exit from the LDS church after you have been "recruited." That smacks of being a cult. Finally, it did not go unnoticed when one of the posters mentioned the emphasis on recruiting, and emphasis on restoring exiting members back, but the church seemed to lose cohesion and focus once you became a member. Something about that isn't right...especially when you consider that they're supposed to have such a strong sense of community. "Keeping the minions" busy and preoccupied also is peculiar and potentially a red flag for me too.

If you've made it this far, thanks for reading my thoughts/rebuttal to all that you have presented.

I will keep you posted on what I decide.

Of course, I invite your comments...heated or otherwise.

John

John, thank you for sharing your thoughts and concerns. As I read your post I was reading many of my ideas and opinions that I had harbored at one time or another in my TBM life. Now as I look at the world through different eyes I have many rebuttals and debating comments to much that you have written but I know your intention is to not debate these issues and thus, I won't go there until a more appropriate time. :)

I appreciate the respect that you have shown this community by at least as a potential LDS member taking into consideration and validating our experiences instead of brushing them off as insignificant and unimportant or labeling us as "disgruntled" members. This shows your true character and willingness to be open and receiving even though your opinion may differ.

[tjohnson]

So this leads us to the money question...and the tything. I've never seen an article or expose on the LDS church regarding corruption of finances or paying off large beneficiaries, as I have in other religious organizations (Scientology comes to mind, as does Krishna, Billy Graham, Jim Bakker, and unfortunately even the Catholic Church). That's not to say that it doesn't exist or hasn't existed. But relative to other so called "legitimate" or mainstream religions I would say they have a FANTASTIC track record. I understand that they keep most of their finances confidential, but that doesn't necessarily raise a red flag for me, as I do the same myself. Additionally, for what purpose might they need to "open their books" anyway? Why SHOULD the government and general populace know? Will they spend it any better? Hardly, look at the government's track record. I'm sure the people that need to know, do know. However I appreciate that I could certainly be wrong. I could justify placing blind confidence in my money with like minded people before I could place confidence in giving to a whole lot of other people or institutions...including the Federal Government. Oh by the way, do you TRULY know exactly where the money is going when the government spends it? If the general populace truly knew, taxation would likely stop tomorrow.


Most of the information I will share here has been placed in other posts and messages on this forum over the last couple of months. However, I will try and summarize it without being too "over-the-top":

(1) The church is a very big, very wealthy organization. The last published article I heard of ranked them at least in the Fortune 100 and maybe the Fortune 10.

(2) They stopped sharing their financials many, many years ago. Why? Granted they are not a public company, however I do not understand why a church is afraid to share that information with it's members. It seems that maybe they don't want people to see what they own, because then they would have to try and explain it.

(3) The church owns a lot of commercial properties, especially in downtown SLC... shopping malls, condos, etc. Why does a church need to own a mall?

(4) They recently purchased 6 radio stations in my region (Idaho Falls, Idaho). Why does a church need to "own" radio stations?

(5) Temples are being built as fast as they can, and there could be many reasons... but here are a couple choices I consider: they have too much money sitting around, so they use it to build buildings, OR, they don't have as much money coming in, so they build temples to get more people to pay tithing in those areas.

As you can see, the money side of the church is one of my sore spots. Once you start digging a little, it just keeps getting bigger and bigger. :(

Also, another fact you may want to consider... although all the leaders of the church continue to claim they are growing, when in fact they are basically staying the same (as many people are joining as are leaving... in fact, the church showed a Net loss of 5 stakes last year).

Here is a link to another website that I am starting... basically a "portal" to other sites relating to much of the information I have shared here:

http://www.postlds.org

As Paul mentioned, do your own research. It's not hard now using the Internet and Google... I think you'll be surprised at what you find. :eek:

[free thinker]

If you are going to join the LDS church I would strongly encourage you to read these two books first. They are both written by members of the church. They are not enemies of the church, and have so stated. Please note that Grant Palmer was disfellowshipped recently for writing his. Here they are!

An Insiders View of Mormon Origins

by Grant Palmer


In Sacred Loneliness

by Todd Compton


I am a convert, and joined thirty years ago as a teenager. I served a full time mission, and was a faithful member most of the last thirty years.

Now, since you are a thinking person, here is a question I would like to see you answer before you join, if you do.

Was Joseph Smith a Prophet of God?

This may seem somewhat parochial to you, but I think it is the key question. Read the books, and then ask yourself the question again. If you answer in the affirmative, go ahead and join, if in the negative, perhaps reconsider! ;)

Good Luck
Free Thinker

[jmkm]

I'm a little irritated right now hearing your story, because it is so similar to how I felt. I completely understand what you're going through. You are "feeling the love" right now. Everything seems rosy, and that's great. Enjoy it. I have a feeling you are going to go with it, and jump right in. I would have. I did, despite my rational parents giving me all the tools and questions to reflect on EXACTLY what I was getting in to. I am angry right now, because I knew what I was getting into and I didn't care. I thought I could handle all the weird stuff, because the social and family, and moral part was so great. The reality of it, is that the weird stuff is really weird, and you can't even immagine the pressure and guilt they put on eachother.

Listen to me, don't listen to me, I don't care, I'm not trying to save you from anything. You sound like a man, based on your name, John, and I can only think that joining as a man would be a smidgen better than as a woman. Maybe you'll really get into it. You might like being in a "special club" where you can feel more important. You'll have "the priesthood". Won't that be great?

You can go to the temple and feel exclusive. It was really fun, by the way, to dress up in a costume and raise your hand like a nazi. I love the group mind thing. You really feel bonded to the other people droning on in momotone voices... It is too bad they took out the nudity, because, damn, I loved having old women touch my naked body. It was soooo normal and natural right?

Right now everyone loves you. The missionaries, the bishop in your ward, the people. The reality of it is that they're USING you to feel good about themselves.

I appreciate everyones concern, but right now I just don't care. I think...go for it...feel the love, embrace it. Find a good, mindless housekeeping, love-sick woman to follow you into eternity. Have 10 kids and send them all on missions to Peru, Indoctrinate, and brainwash them, and give them creepy blessings to get through their miserable lives. Make them feel guilty for having normal feelings about life. Go to the temple, go to the temple, go to the temple, and mostly pay your 10%.

By all means give it a go...

I'm sorry if that sounded mean, but I wish someone would have slapped me upside the head when I was contemplating for 3 years about joining. My parents tried, they really did...Clipping things out of newspapers about educated people being excommunicated for weird things...asking me questions about the temple ceremony, polygamy, blood atonement... I didn't care...I wanted to be part of that group soooo badly.....

Honestly, you are in the best part of it. Why don't you just "not" get baptized and keep them all in their eeewy gooey state of drooling love over you?

[silverfox]

I'm a little irritated right now hearing your story, because it is so similar to how I felt. I completely understand what you're going through. You are "feeling the love" right now. Everything seems rosy, and that's great. Enjoy it. I have a feeling you are going to go with it, and jump right in. I would have. I did, despite my rational parents giving me all the tools and questions to reflect on EXACTLY what I was getting in to. I am angry right now, because I knew what I was getting into and I didn't care. I thought I could handle all the weird stuff, because the social and family, and moral part was so great. The reality of it, is that the weird stuff is really weird, and you can't even immagine the pressure and guilt they put on eachother.

Listen to me, don't listen to me, I don't care, I'm not trying to save you from anything. You sound like a man, based on your name, John, and I can only think that joining as a man would be a smidgen better than as a woman. Maybe you'll really get into it. You might like being in a "special club" where you can feel more important. You'll have "the priesthood". Won't that be great?

You can go to the temple and feel exclusive. It was really fun, by the way, to dress up in a costume and raise your hand like a nazi. I love the group mind thing. You really feel bonded to the other people droning on in momotone voices... It is too bad they took out the nudity, because, damn, I loved having old women touch my naked body. It was soooo normal and natural right?

Right now everyone loves you. The missionaries, the bishop in your ward, the people. The reality of it is that they're USING you to feel good about themselves.

I appreciate everyones concern, but right now I just don't care. I think...go for it...feel the love, embrace it. Find a good, mindless housekeeping, love-sick woman to follow you into eternity. Have 10 kids and send them all on missions to Peru, Indoctrinate, and brainwash them, and give them creepy blessings to get through their miserable lives. Make them feel guilty for having normal feelings about life. Go to the temple, go to the temple, go to the temple, and mostly pay your 10%.

By all means give it a go...

I'm sorry if that sounded mean, but I wish someone would have slapped me upside the head when I was contemplating for 3 years about joining. My parents tried, they really did...Clipping things out of newspapers about educated people being excommunicated for weird things...asking me questions about the temple ceremony, polygamy, blood atonement... I didn't care...I wanted to be part of that group soooo badly.....

Honestly, you are in the best part of it. Why don't you just "not" get baptized and keep them all in their eeewy gooey state of drooling love over you?

I love your style, jmkm. I know this was written with irritation and probably not meant to be humorous but it hit my funny bone and made me laugh out loud.

You make an interesting and IMO, a valid point about members using investigators. What is that scripture that we were always told to remember...something about bringing even one to the fold - blah blah blah, gosh can't remember.

My missionary story - I was attending school at age 19. I had a fellow student who became my friend. Her mother was dying from brain cancer. I carried my BoM around like a good little missionary (this was in MI btw). It gave people the opportunity to ask me about it. Teachers would tease me, but mostly students were inquisitive. This friend, Pam asked me about it and kept asking questions about my religion. I shared with her everything of course. She kept saying, ooooo you are giving me goosebumps when you talk about the celestial kingdom and eternal families (remember her mom was dying). Anyway, we both went our separate ways. She never accepted my invitations to meet with missionaries or attend church. But about 5 years later after I had moved to Utard, I received a call from her. She was thanking me for "planting the seed" of truth. It prepared her and her dad for when the missionaries knocked on their door a few years later. They joined and she had recently been sealed in the temple.

I remember well feeling how wow! no matter what I do now, no matter how badly I screw up, I brought a lost sheep to the fold! I influenced someone to join the church! So yes, I used her to make me feel better about my own salvation. Why couldn't I have felt comfortable with my own ability and my own salvation without using someone else to validate it? This is a very common thing in the church. Using the opinions of others to validate our own worthiness and salvation.

[peter_mary]

John, Thanks for spilling your guts like that...it really is a usefull thing for you AND for us to experience the directions that our various lines of thinking take us. You said a mouthful, and really, it would be fun to sit and talk, but I would like to offer some "insider" opinions regarding some of your thinking. In the same spirit of openness that you offered your thinking, I too want to state that these opinions are mine, and though I believe them wholeheartedly, I claim no special knowledge. So that said...


However, as I read and study all the responses, one aspect keeps coming to mind...why would the church feel the need to be so guarded? Specifically, what's "in it for them" to isolate or shelter their members from different perspectives? And even more importantly, are they REALLY sheltering their members, or are they simply choosing to separate themselves from negative influences?

Good question! Why DO they? Unfortunately, they in fact do. And the reason I believe they do is that information is power. When you provide people with open information, they are free to make informed choices, choices which often don't allign with the institution's stated goals. The Church is clear that it wants to bring the gospel to the whole world. Each member is reminded "how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of Heaven" regarding the blessings of bringing souls into the kingdom.

But more importantly if the Church can shape the story (politicians call it "spin") then they can control what people believe. If they lose that control, then people might not join. or choose to stay. So for instance, if the Church can sell the story that the 11 witnesses to the Book of Mormon all beheld the plates in person, then that sounds pretty good. But if people understood that all of the witnesses indicated that they saw and beheld "with their spiritual eyes," rather than actually seeing and handling the plates, well, that might change things for people. If people believe that Joseph Smith et al were practicing the law of plural marriage well in advance of the revelation being made public, because the Lord was preparing the way for them to do so, then we admire them for their faith. But if we learn that they lied openly, and ran smear campaigns against those who refused to participate, and that some of Joseph's wives were taken in plural marriage or offered to be taken but refused while their husbands were sent off on missions...well, that might make a difference to people, too. The Church well recognizes that there are many aspects of their history that is not "helpful" to people deciding to join, or deciding to stay, and so they choose to hide it. Apostle Boyd K. Packer, in a well-known speach to the Church Education System many years ago chastised some LDS researchers for sharing openly the history. "Not all things that are true are useful," he said, suggesting that we need to only teach a faithful history. "We'll tell you what you can say, and your charge is to say nothing else," was the implied message.

The large number of people you see on this board and others, such as exmormon.org or View From the Foyer is a testament to what happens when people find out what the Church is hiding. And THAT, my friend, is why they hide it. The fear the exodus that will occur when people learn. That unwillingness to face that information honestly diminishes greatly the integrity of the current Church leaders in my mind, and it contributed significantly to me walking away.

A cult, on the otherhand, heavily conditions and brain washes it's followers usually to gain extreme power over their bodies, minds, and/or wallet for deep personal gain for a tiny few at the very top.

Once again, experience has shown that there is an enormous amount of brainwashing and conditioning in the Mormon church. The power of repetitive teaching, beginning when children are 18 months old, results in mental scripts so thoroughly ingrained that it takes YEARS of deprogramming to release its grip on the mind. Once again, it might be helpful to consider one of the primary roles of forums such as this one...it gives the brainwashed the opportunity to process, to explore, to deprogram, and ultimately to heal from years and years of conditioning. I'm 5 years removed, and I'm STILL processing...

Now it is true, I believe, that those at the top don't benefit from some of the classic cultic benefits of leader-driven cults, i.e. all your money, access sexually to however they want, ultimate control over when we all die, that kind of thing. However, that was ABSOLUTELY true when the Church began...Joseph Smith was a charismatic cult leader in the truest sense of the word. As the Church grew larger, the leadership had to trade some of the control for a greater span of power. A single charismatic leader can't exert that high a level of control over 12 million people, but by mainstreaming to a degree, backing off on the control, you can expand your power base. And that is what they've done. It's not AS cultic as it once was, but it's a continuum, my friend, and the LDS Church is FAR along on that continuum.

But don't kid yourself that those 15 men at the top of the heap aren't reaping enormous financial and personal gain. They are venerated wherever they go. They oversee a vast financial empire. They weild an enormous amount of political power in the Intermountain region, and more and more on the national level. Power is intoxicating, and there's not a one of them who would ask for this "yoke to be removed." They travel the world, they are treated to the finest, they are entertained by heads of state, including the President of the United States at times, and all of their earthly needs are met by the members of the Church. They have plenty to lose if this kingdom comes crashing down. Plenty.

How can we know if the LDS church is taking advantage and conditioning a large populace for similar gain? As I mentioned in my previous post, ONE litmus test I give the LDS church is how much do they do for others that have no affiliation WITH the church? I read in TIME magazine several years back that the LDS church is one of the biggest givers to non-LDS affiliated organizations in the world...unlike the Catholic church, or most other wealthy churches, that are selfish and narrow in their giving.

I don't want for a minute to discredit the good humanitarian work that the Church does...it has some wonderful programs, and members contribute generously. I don't have the numbers, but I am familiar with the manner in which SOME other churches operate when it comes to charitable giving. The Mormon Church earmarks certain "kinds" of donations for charitable causes: Deseret Industries donations (from the members), Fast Offerings (from the members) and Humanitarian aid (from the members). In other words, the Church coffers themselves (i.e. tithing money and revenues generated from the Fortune 500 business they run is NOT earmarked for charitable aid. The Church as an institution does not use it's own income for charity...it taxes its people to give EVEN more, and then they donate that in the name of the institution. Other churches I am familiar with establish a budget to which they will operate, and then they close their books out at the end of the year by donating all excess funds to their pet charities, starting each year with a clean slate. In other words, those Churches CAN'T ever build a corporate empire, because what little they have, they give away. Refer, if you will, to the parable of the widows mite... I am not impressed by what the Church gives, because there is SO much more that they could give, but they don't. SOOOO much more...

I understand that they keep most of their finances confidential, but that doesn't necessarily raise a red flag for me, as I do the same myself. Additionally, for what purpose might they need to "open their books" anyway? Why SHOULD the government and general populace know?

It's about accountability. Anytime you refuse to be accountable to the very people who GIVE you the money, then you are creating an environment where corruption is inevitable. Does the Government fail in this regard? Of course, but at least we can go and look (unless the corruption is sufficiently deep, which I don't doubt it is). But it is an enormous red flag for me when I am held accountable each year for my contributions during tithing settlement (have they told you about that one yet?), as well as when I ask for a temple recommend, but they feel no similar obligation to me. Any Church that requires it's members to account to them for their personal finances, should be equally as forthcoming with their own. The Church corporation was built on the backs and the labor of faithful members...they have a right to know what they are contributing to.

Why NOT be accountable to the people? What are they hiding?

They even "cleaned up" the rituals to make it less uncomfortable for their female members.

The very fact that rituals had to be cleaned up at all should tell you something. One possibility is that they were awful, and the public opinion was sufficiently damaging that they realized from a PR standpoint that things had to change. But what does that say about the "revelation" that revealed those rituals in the first place? Whether polygamy or temple rituals, it makes no sense to me that an all powerful God would reveal saving truths, and that the Church would say, "Well, sorry God, but the Government won't let us practice the most sacred aspects of your gospel. I guess you'll have to come up with something else, or we'll be forced to change it on our own." Talk about casting God in your own image! If these are the last days, and God reserved these rituals and rites and practices for the last days so that the Millenial period could be ushered in, then logically I have to conclude that Church itself took one mighty step backward from God. Where is the faith? Where is the divine power? If God had restored it in the last days, doesn't the Church think God could establish it once in for all? What kind of wussy God do they believe in? (Whoo! Got a little wound up on that one, didn't I?)

I've never personally met a Mormon that has more than one wife, although I understand it does exist in some parts of Utah. Regardless, it seems clear that there is no institutional sexual malfesance at play like we have discovered in the Catholic Church in recent years (but that go back MANY years).

No, but you'll meet a bunch of them in the Celestial Kingdom. According to Mormon doctrine, worthy men in the Celestial Kingdom will be blessed with a plurality of wives. The patriarchy of this system is one of the most damaging cultural conivances of the Church. It diminishes the value of women to a second-class status...and that is simply unacceptable to too many of us.

As for apologies to "wrongs of the past", I'm not convinced that it's necessary. There have been many "wrongs" that have gone unanswered both inside and outside churches, governments, and institutions...from corporations, military campaigns, and even individuals. What's the point?

The point is simply this. If you are going to be the champion for Truth, Justice and the American way, as the Church proclaims itself to be, then you had better be willing to deal with past wrongs. If you are unable to address the problems of the past, what confidence do we have that you can address problems of the future? If you deny the historical problems, cover them up, pretend they don't exist, and then excommunicate people who want to talk about them in an effort to clear the spiritual dissonance from their own lives, then what can be said about the integrity of the organization and it's leaders? They demand purity on the part of the members, repenting for all past misdeads, but do not hold themselves to the same standard. If an institution is unwilling to talk about its problems, then it sets itself above accountability to anyone but themselves...and that's a bad system.

So it boils down to this. If a person has unwaivering faith that men who lead the Mormon Church do so walking side by side with God, and that every step is guided by the Creator of the Universe and the Savior of the World, then it would be desirable to assume that everything they do, every action they undertake, is in fact the divine will of God. For me, I don't believe it. I don't believe they walk and talk with God any more than I do, and I make mistakes all the time, no matter how well intentioned I am. They may be well intentioned, but they are human, and the Church they lead is a human institution. I can't give myself, heart and soul, to something that demands everything of me, but can promise nothing in return.


Of course, I invite your comments...heated or otherwise.

John

I guess that's what you got...But that's the way it looks from my little corner of the world. Hope you don't feel like you got a double-barrel blast...I really do hope to just offer those thoughts as simply that...food for thought.

Paul

[peter_mary]

I love your style, jmkm.

You make an interesting and IMO, a valid point about members using investigators.

I remember well feeling how wow! no matter what I do now, no matter how badly I screw up, I brought a lost sheep to the fold! I influenced someone to join the church! So yes, I used her to make me feel better about my own salvation.

Thank you, jmkm and Silverfox, for this little bit of insight. I know exactly what you're saying, but hadn't put my finger on it. Members "feed," if you will, off the possibility of bringing another into the fold, because then you REALLY know you're "in" with the Big Guy! They need that to know they're okay in the kingdom...

Thank you!

Paul

[gracie]

Regarding some of the other insights that the previous posters have been kind enough to share with me, I find it most troubling about the lack of support that the church was willing to provide when sexual abuse was taking place. That does bother me. It also bothers me to discover a theme of shallow friendships present within the LDS church.


My suggestion is to do a google search with "mormon" and "sexual abuse". Look up personal websites, newspaper articles, case histories, etc. Two years ago, when i became severely depressed for the third time and feared becoming suicidal again, I did just that. i was a believing, zealous, hardworking church member (had been all my life). That's when I finally learned I was NOT ALONE in being abused by the LDS church. See, I was molested by my bishop as a teenager for over a year. I never told anyone because i knew intuitively it would not be believed by anyone. Also, I had attended seminary, learned about polygamy and how it is an eternal principle, also had toured Brigham youngs house in Utah with my family on vacation (we were quite "devout"). The cognitive dissonance I experienced as a child is impossible to describe. When i finally became suicidal, i begged him to tell the Stake Pres or else i would. i knew they would go easier on him if he confessed. The SP when he found out, talked to me for 5 MINUTES and said thank you for the info and dismissed me from his office. The perpetrator was disfellowship for one year, no one ever knew as far as I know. (He had been honourably released a short time before his confession while I sat with my family in the congregation with a frozen smile on my face.) To this day, at age 38, after years of therapy and soulsearching, I deal with the daily ramifications of that abuse. I will my whole life. My children, three of them, will never be subjected to a "church" that claims to be god's only true church and then treats innocent people like that. the God i beleive in does not inspire those kinds of actions. And my story is just one of thousands, which you will discover if you keep looking. Good luck
Gracie

[silverfox]

My suggestion is to do a google search with "mormon" and "sexual abuse". Look up personal websites, newspaper articles, case histories, etc. Two years ago, when i became severely depressed for the third time and feared becoming suicidal again, I did just that. i was a believing, zealous, hardworking church member (had been all my life). That's when I finally learned I was NOT ALONE in being abused by the LDS church. See, I was molested by my bishop as a teenager for over a year. I never told anyone because i knew intuitively it would not be believed by anyone. Also, I had attended seminary, learned about polygamy and how it is an eternal principle, also had toured Brigham youngs house in Utah with my family on vacation (we were quite "devout"). The cognitive dissonance I experienced as a child is impossible to describe. When i finally became suicidal, i begged him to tell the Stake Pres or else i would. i knew they would go easier on him if he confessed. The SP when he found out, talked to me for 5 MINUTES and said thank you for the info and dismissed me from his office. The perpetrator was disfellowship for one year, no one ever knew as far as I know. (He had been honourably released a short time before his confession while I sat with my family in the congregation with a frozen smile on my face.) Gracie

I want to add that Gracie's story is NOT UNCOMMON. She is NOT alone. There have been many bishops who have used their position to abuse. And usually NOT ONE of their members could see he was a "bad egg".

One of the things I have learned as a TBM is you NEVER know who another member is. You really just never know. Too much is unaccpetable and hushed. And when a courageous victim like Gracie comes forward, they already know they will not be believed.

Those bad eggs are there, disguised very well. We all learn the drill - what is expected, how to act, how to speak, what to say. Anything other than that is unacceptable.

My old boss was a bishop for YEARS. He lived in the Davis County area. I won't post his name but if anyone wants it you can PM me. During his time as bishop he molested young boys. He used his position to abuse. NO ONE BELIEVED THESE BOYS. No one who knew him could believe it.

This came out only about a year ago after some of these boys became adults. (one I am aware of is aged 24, his abuse occured when he was 14) So this bishop, the Bad Egg continued as bishop for years, using his position to abuse and no one knew. He was well known in the community, he was in upper management with the company I worked for, I worked with him all the time. Now, I didn't like him for the way he handled business affairs and for his lack of skills in management but I never had a clue that he was capable of this kind of abuse.

As a team leader under him I always wondered why he would always hire all these boys from his ward when they turned 18. He wouldn't allow us to interview them or anything, he had total control. I don't believe he has gone to trial yet. But he did admit to the abuse. And more and more victims are coming forward. At the time of his arrest he was in a management position with the State of Corrections. How ironic!

Ironically, my 22 year old chronically mentally ill son was hospitalized in the suicide ward this past summer and had befriended one of this bishop's alleged victims. Guess why he was in the suicide ward? Very sad. Very disheartening.

If you do join and have children PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't leave your kids alone with any other member in the church NO MATTER how well you think you know them. No nursery, no Primary, no Sunday School, seminary, etc unless you are there with them.

I look back at how blindly I trusted fellow members with my children, complete strangers in some cases. Camping trips, etc. I am very fortunate that my kids never experienced abuse.

[silverfox]

Thank you, jmkm and Silverfox, for this little bit of insight. I know exactly what you're saying, but hadn't put my finger on it. Members "feed," if you will, off the possibility of bringing another into the fold, because then you REALLY know you're "in" with the Big Guy! They need that to know they're okay in the kingdom...

Thank you!

Paul

Does anyone remember that scripture? Something like If you bring the least or just ONE of my sheep unto me, your place is in heaven - was it something like that????? It's driving me nuts. For something that brought me much comfort so many years I am surprised I can't remember.

[lsands]

John, I appreciate your willingness to post here, and your openness about your thoughts and feelings, and to the ideas and thoughts presented here. And I REALLY appreciate the posts of those, like me, who have left Mo'ism and who still can find the positive in it.

Whatever, you choose, John, you will learn and grow from the experience. Because you are being so thoughtful and careful, I'm sure even after you're baptized that if you decide the church is not what you thought or that it isn't working for you the way you had hoped, you can leave! After all, we did.

The one thing that would be very, very difficult to reverse would be if you married a Mormon girl and had a family. I was divorced before I left, so I have not experienced this particular agony. But I know and have heard the stories of many who have, and it is truly heartbreaking. I suggest that you examine stories like these, and then ask yourself: If the church is so family oriented and supposed to be based on the teachings of Christian love, where do these marital/family problems come from? Is the first love and loyalty to family or to the church?

I wish you well in whatever you decide. I encourage you to search your heart AND mind and make the decision you feel is best for you.

Laraine

[peter_mary]

Does anyone remember that scripture? Something like If you bring the least or just ONE of my sheep unto me, your place is in heaven - was it something like that????? It's driving me nuts. For something that brought me much comfort so many years I am surprised I can't remember.

15. "And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people, and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him [Ladies, want to jump on THAT one?] in the kingdom of my Father!

16. "And now, if your joy will be great with one soul that you have brought unto me into the kingdom of my Father, how great will be your joy if you should bring many souls unto me!"

Ask, Silverfox, and ye shall receive; knock and it shall be opened unto you. :eek:

Paul

[silverfox]

15. "And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people, and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him [Ladies, want to jump on THAT one?] in the kingdom of my Father!

16. "And now, if your joy will be great with one soul that you have brought unto me into the kingdom of my Father, how great will be your joy if you should bring many souls unto me!"

Ask, Silverfox, and ye shall receive; knock and it shall be opened unto you. :eek:

Paul

Yes Yes Yes!!!!!!!!!! "save it be one soul" that rang in my head for years cuz I knew I had influenced at least ONE soul!!!!!!!! So I am entitled to great joy, right???!!! :)

[nate]

Yes Yes Yes!!!!!!!!!! "save it be one soul" that rang in my head for years cuz I knew I had influenced at least ONE soul!!!!!!!! So I am entitled to great joy, right???!!! :)

Also, right along side that is D&C 18, verse 9 or 10, can't remember, but it goes something like:

"Remember the worth of one soul is great in the sight of God"

[free thinker]

John, Thanks for spilling your guts like that...it really is a usefull thing for you AND for us to experience the directions that our various lines of thinking take us. You said a mouthful, and really, it would be fun to sit and talk, but I would like to offer some "insider" opinions regarding some of your thinking. In the same spirit of openness that you offered your thinking, I too want to state that these opinions are mine, and though I believe them wholeheartedly, I claim no special knowledge. So that said...




Good question! Why DO they? Unfortunately, they in fact do. And the reason I believe they do is that information is power. When you provide people with open information, they are free to make informed choices, choices which often don't allign with the institution's stated goals. The Church is clear that it wants to bring the gospel to the whole world. Each member is reminded "how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of Heaven" regarding the blessings of bringing souls into the kingdom.

But more importantly if the Church can shape the story (politicians call it "spin") then they can control what people believe. If they lose that control, then people might not join. or choose to stay. So for instance, if the Church can sell the story that the 11 witnesses to the Book of Mormon all beheld the plates in person, then that sounds pretty good. But if people understood that all of the witnesses indicated that they saw and beheld "with their spiritual eyes," rather than actually seeing and handling the plates, well, that might change things for people. If people believe that Joseph Smith et al were practicing the law of plural marriage well in advance of the revelation being made public, because the Lord was preparing the way for them to do so, then we admire them for their faith. But if we learn that they lied openly, and ran smear campaigns against those who refused to participate, and that some of Joseph's wives were taken in plural marriage or offered to be taken but refused while their husbands were sent off on missions...well, that might make a difference to people, too. The Church well recognizes that there are many aspects of their history that is not "helpful" to people deciding to join, or deciding to stay, and so they choose to hide it. Apostle Boyd K. Packer, in a well-known speach to the Church Education System many years ago chastised some LDS researchers for sharing openly the history. "Not all things that are true are useful," he said, suggesting that we need to only teach a faithful history. "We'll tell you what you can say, and your charge is to say nothing else," was the implied message.

The large number of people you see on this board and others, such as exmormon.org or View From the Foyer is a testament to what happens when people find out what the Church is hiding. And THAT, my friend, is why they hide it. The fear the exodus that will occur when people learn. That unwillingness to face that information honestly diminishes greatly the integrity of the current Church leaders in my mind, and it contributed significantly to me walking away.



Once again, experience has shown that there is an enormous amount of brainwashing and conditioning in the Mormon church. The power of repetitive teaching, beginning when children are 18 months old, results in mental scripts so thoroughly ingrained that it takes YEARS of deprogramming to release its grip on the mind. Once again, it might be helpful to consider one of the primary roles of forums such as this one...it gives the brainwashed the opportunity to process, to explore, to deprogram, and ultimately to heal from years and years of conditioning. I'm 5 years removed, and I'm STILL processing...

Now it is true, I believe, that those at the top don't benefit from some of the classic cultic benefits of leader-driven cults, i.e. all your money, access sexually to however they want, ultimate control over when we all die, that kind of thing. However, that was ABSOLUTELY true when the Church began...Joseph Smith was a charismatic cult leader in the truest sense of the word. As the Church grew larger, the leadership had to trade some of the control for a greater span of power. A single charismatic leader can't exert that high a level of control over 12 million people, but by mainstreaming to a degree, backing off on the control, you can expand your power base. And that is what they've done. It's not AS cultic as it once was, but it's a continuum, my friend, and the LDS Church is FAR along on that continuum.

But don't kid yourself that those 15 men at the top of the heap aren't reaping enormous financial and personal gain. They are venerated wherever they go. They oversee a vast financial empire. They weild an enormous amount of political power in the Intermountain region, and more and more on the national level. Power is intoxicating, and there's not a one of them who would ask for this "yoke to be removed." They travel the world, they are treated to the finest, they are entertained by heads of state, including the President of the United States at times, and all of their earthly needs are met by the members of the Church. They have plenty to lose if this kingdom comes crashing down. Plenty.



I don't want for a minute to discredit the good humanitarian work that the Church does...it has some wonderful programs, and members contribute generously. I don't have the numbers, but I am familiar with the manner in which SOME other churches operate when it comes to charitable giving. The Mormon Church earmarks certain "kinds" of donations for charitable causes: Deseret Industries donations (from the members), Fast Offerings (from the members) and Humanitarian aid (from the members). In other words, the Church coffers themselves (i.e. tithing money and revenues generated from the Fortune 500 business they run is NOT earmarked for charitable aid. The Church as an institution does not use it's own income for charity...it taxes its people to give EVEN more, and then they donate that in the name of the institution. Other churches I am familiar with establish a budget to which they will operate, and then they close their books out at the end of the year by donating all excess funds to their pet charities, starting each year with a clean slate. In other words, those Churches CAN'T ever build a corporate empire, because what little they have, they give away. Refer, if you will, to the parable of the widows mite... I am not impressed by what the Church gives, because there is SO much more that they could give, but they don't. SOOOO much more...



It's about accountability. Anytime you refuse to be accountable to the very people who GIVE you the money, then you are creating an environment where corruption is inevitable. Does the Government fail in this regard? Of course, but at least we can go and look (unless the corruption is sufficiently deep, which I don't doubt it is). But it is an enormous red flag for me when I am held accountable each year for my contributions during tithing settlement (have they told you about that one yet?), as well as when I ask for a temple recommend, but they feel no similar obligation to me. Any Church that requires it's members to account to them for their personal finances, should be equally as forthcoming with their own. The Church corporation was built on the backs and the labor of faithful members...they have a right to know what they are contributing to.

Why NOT be accountable to the people? What are they hiding?



The very fact that rituals had to be cleaned up at all should tell you something. One possibility is that they were awful, and the public opinion was sufficiently damaging that they realized from a PR standpoint that things had to change. But what does that say about the "revelation" that revealed those rituals in the first place? Whether polygamy or temple rituals, it makes no sense to me that an all powerful God would reveal saving truths, and that the Church would say, "Well, sorry God, but the Government won't let us practice the most sacred aspects of your gospel. I guess you'll have to come up with something else, or we'll be forced to change it on our own." Talk about casting God in your own image! If these are the last days, and God reserved these rituals and rites and practices for the last days so that the Millenial period could be ushered in, then logically I have to conclude that Church itself took one mighty step backward from God. Where is the faith? Where is the divine power? If God had restored it in the last days, doesn't the Church think God could establish it once in for all? What kind of wussy God do they believe in? (Whoo! Got a little wound up on that one, didn't I?)



No, but you'll meet a bunch of them in the Celestial Kingdom. According to Mormon doctrine, worthy men in the Celestial Kingdom will be blessed with a plurality of wives. The patriarchy of this system is one of the most damaging cultural conivances of the Church. It diminishes the value of women to a second-class status...and that is simply unacceptable to too many of us.



The point is simply this. If you are going to be the champion for Truth, Justice and the American way, as the Church proclaims itself to be, then you had better be willing to deal with past wrongs. If you are unable to address the problems of the past, what confidence do we have that you can address problems of the future? If you deny the historical problems, cover them up, pretend they don't exist, and then excommunicate people who want to talk about them in an effort to clear the spiritual dissonance from their own lives, then what can be said about the integrity of the organization and it's leaders? They demand purity on the part of the members, repenting for all past misdeads, but do not hold themselves to the same standard. If an institution is unwilling to talk about its problems, then it sets itself above accountability to anyone but themselves...and that's a bad system.

So it boils down to this. If a person has unwaivering faith that men who lead the Mormon Church do so walking side by side with God, and that every step is guided by the Creator of the Universe and the Savior of the World, then it would be desirable to assume that everything they do, every action they undertake, is in fact the divine will of God. For me, I don't believe it. I don't believe they walk and talk with God any more than I do, and I make mistakes all the time, no matter how well intentioned I am. They may be well intentioned, but they are human, and the Church they lead is a human institution. I can't give myself, heart and soul, to something that demands everything of me, but can promise nothing in return.




I guess that's what you got...But that's the way it looks from my little corner of the world. Hope you don't feel like you got a double-barrel blast...I really do hope to just offer those thoughts as simply that...food for thought.

Paul

I agree with everything you said!

Free Thinker

[silverfox]

All, thank you for your responses. VERY informative indeed. It really makes me think...a lot. Also, I appreciate the way that you all are approaching my concerns with personal examples. It's certainly a different perspective.

In advance, I'm going to warn that I'm going to touch on a few areas that may be getting a bit too philosophical or "out there"...but it might help to define some of my thinking on this whole matter. Some of the stuff may evoke strong opinions. But your patience, in advance, is appreciated. Also, none of what I'm about to write comes from any elder or anyone other than from my own thoughts.

John

I am curious, Registry, have you talked about any of your findings here with your TBM friends and acquaintances? If so what is their response? Do they have answers for you?

[silverfox]

I don't want for a minute to discredit the good humanitarian work that the Church does...it has some wonderful programs, and members contribute generously. I don't have the numbers, but I am familiar with the manner in which SOME other churches operate when it comes to charitable giving. The Mormon Church earmarks certain "kinds" of donations for charitable causes: Deseret Industries donations (from the members), Fast Offerings (from the members) and Humanitarian aid (from the members). In other words, the Church coffers themselves (i.e. tithing money and revenues generated from the Fortune 500 business they run is NOT earmarked for charitable aid. The Church as an institution does not use it's own income for charity...it taxes its people to give EVEN more, and then they donate that in the name of the institution. Other churches I am familiar with establish a budget to which they will operate, and then they close their books out at the end of the year by donating all excess funds to their pet charities, starting each year with a clean slate. In other words, those Churches CAN'T ever build a corporate empire, because what little they have, they give away. Refer, if you will, to the parable of the widows mite... I am not impressed by what the Church gives, because there is SO much more that they could give, but they don't. SOOOO much more...

Paul

Paul thank you for spelling this out. Very much appreciated. It is rumored that the church rakes in over5 million dollars a year from UTAH alone in tithing. (recently discussed in an article in the paper during debate regarding possibility of a state flat tax that the church is much opposed to) It is rumored that the church is a 6 billion dollar empire if not more.

I would prefer to see the 500 million dollars spent on buying a mall go to something more useful in the world or even among the church's members. You are correct that the church doesn't do the donating, it's members do. How many times have you as members been asked to donate a little extra for victims of disasters? Or donate items for vicims? All the clothing that is sent by the church has been donated by the members. They take the left overs from the Deseret Industries and ship them out. Members are asked to contribute to ward budgets to pay for maintaining the wards. Members clean the churches. Members are even called on DI missions. Now it may look like members are volunteering all this time but there are many a disgruntled member in "callings" they don't want to be in. But you are shamed if you turn down a calling.

In my experiences in leader positions, when the church assists a family (due to loss of jobs, etc) they are expected to pay it back. If they can't pay back money they are expected to work it off in the cannery or by doing other odd jobs for the church. Nothing wrong with this until you have a single mom with several children who works 8-10 hours a day just to make ends meet but because she can't pay tithing, the church assists her to enable her to pay tithing. (not feed her kids but to pay tithing, got that?) But then she is expected to spend her free time working for the church. Either sewing things to be sold at DI, working in the cannery, stocking shelves, etc. This free time should be devoted to her family, not kids being left home alone while mom is working her ass off just to survive just to pay tithing so she is on the "good" list at church. And all the while being hounded to "improve" her situation. I've seen this all too many times over my 30 years as a member and it is disgusting. I don't understand why a single mom with several children and no family support making 8 bucks anhour or worse, minimum wage is expected to pay tithing? They are told to sacrafice (like they already aren't sacraficing) and they will be taken care of. Bull!

Meanwhile their kids go without many necessities. Mom is being pressured by the church for tithing. The kids get sick, have to use tithing money to go to the doctor. Or the car breaks down, have to use tithing money to fix it. In my experiences according to the church this is WRONG!!!!! You NEVER use tithing money for anything! And if you stop paying tithing the assistance will stop.

It completely blows me away and it angers me thinking of all the struggling families out there who I've witnessed who have sacraficed NECESSITIES to pay tithing. While the suits are sitting in their air conditioned offices downtown with their 2000.00 cufflinks buying up downtown Salt Lake. It's not all that charitable of an organization. Gimme a break!

[nate]

In my experiences in leader positions, when the church assists a family (due to loss of jobs, etc) they are expected to pay it back. If they can't pay back money they are expected to work it off in the cannery or by doing other odd jobs for the church. Nothing wrong with this until you have a single mom with several children who works 8-10 hours a day just to make ends meet but because she can't pay tithing, the church assists her to enable her to pay tithing. (not feed her kids but to pay tithing, got that?) But then she is expected to spend her free time working for the church. Either sewing things to be sold at DI, working in the cannery, stocking shelves, etc. This free time should be devoted to her family, not kids being left home alone while mom is working her ass off just to survive just to pay tithing so she is on the "good" list at church. And all the while being hounded to "improve" her situation. I've seen this all too many times over my 30 years as a member and it is disgusting. I don't understand why a single mom with several children and no family support making 8 bucks anhour or worse, minimum wage is expected to pay tithing? They are told to sacrafice (like they already aren't sacraficing) and they will be taken care of. Bull!

Meanwhile their kids go without many necessities. Mom is being pressured by the church for tithing. The kids get sick, have to use tithing money to go to the doctor. Or the car breaks down, have to use tithing money to fix it. In my experiences according to the church this is WRONG!!!!! You NEVER use tithing money for anything! And if you stop paying tithing the assistance will stop.

It completely blows me away and it angers me thinking of all the struggling families out there who I've witnessed who have sacraficed NECESSITIES to pay tithing. While the suits are sitting in their air conditioned offices downtown with their 2000.00 cufflinks buying up downtown Salt Lake. It's not all that charitable of an organization. Gimme a break!

All too true. Growing up in a family with 13 kids, and a stay home mom, my father's wages were barely enough to provide basic necessities for us for many years. My mother made our clothes when she could not afford the discounted prices of the DI, and only once a year did the bishop give us the "DI Welfare Slip" to allow us each to get a couple outfits for school. It was not uncommon for us to have bread and milk for dinner for a while there, however, the church always got their 10% of my fathers income. We did frequently get the church Deseret canned foods, but I don't know if my mother ever had to work it off. She was always doing church stuff, so who knows; and we only got the food when things were really tight.

I remember when my mother began teaching me about personal finances, she gave me a Mo published pamphlet that contained a budget spreadsheet. Always in the very first column was tithing, with added emphasis on this column at all times. It even spelled it out for you, that you MUST ALWAYS pay tithing first, and if you do, everything else will work out. So, of course, after resources were wearing thin and something would go good (like my Dad getting a bonus, raise, etc.) it was a joyous event, and a direct result of us paying our tithing (not because my Dad was good at his job).

Another very disturbing thing is the the church counseling/assistance program. When my older sister became pregnant out of wedlock, and at a young and impressionable age, the church told her that she had to give the kid up for adoption to a good mormon family, and that if she didn't she was dooming the child. They didn't give her any other choice in her counseling. My parents had to put up quite a fight to adopt their daughter's daughter instead. When a similar situation presented itself, we weren't so lucky. I had a brother that got sent to prison for a bar fight, and while in prison, his pregnant Mo lady friend turned to the church to counsel her in her situation. They gave her the same advise, and she followed it. My brother and parents tried to fight it, and at least give my parents custody of the baby until my brother was out of prison. However, because my brother was incarcerated, in the State of UT he had no rights to the child whatsoever..and neither did the grandparents.

Apparently, because of these laws (which are heavily influenced by the church), many women actually fly to Utah to give birth so that the father's have no say in what happens to the child.

Sickening!!
:mad:

[miss taken]

I ask this because your comments seem so perceptive that I would not be surprised if you are a member playing games. Apologies if you are not. But that is how it struck me.

I actually agree with you on a lot of issues. I am not a Utah Mormon so my beliefs may be founded on ignorance I dont know.

Save Jesus Christ himself, the other historical figure that I am most curious about is Joseph Smith.

It makes the church you are thinking of joining? neither true nor false, but this man had charisma, and relgious fervour, and if nothing else a fantastic imagination. He inspired loyalty, hatred and devotion all at the same time.

Look what has come out of what he organised. He went against most of the social mores of his time, and was a real trail blazer. Okay so he has been white-washed and a pretty god-like picture has been painted of him to encourage the members to live good lives. But, and it is a big But... This man wasn't perfect, and I think he himself would have been pretty disgusted if anyone put their loyalty in the church on the basis of his personal godliness.

In my opinion, Joseph was a deeply imperfect individual, and you know what I think I would have preferred being a member then, when it was more cloudy, and less institutionalised, which it surely is today.

So, if you can accept that Joseph was an imperfect man, in every sense of the word and still believe that he could have had just the tiniest bit of God there to produce something good, and I really do believe that the LDS church is a good force (not the only one) in the world, then please join it, and if it brings you closer to God, and makes you a person full of love, which in my opinion is what life is all about, then for you you are doing the right thing. The one thing I loved about the LDS church, and which I still beleive deeply is the concept of 'eternal progression'. It sits well with me, and I believe it totally.

There's my twopenny worth.

[miss taken]

I just read up on the internet about the wives of Joseph Smith, and the way he dealt with them. I only ever read Van Wagoner's account, not In Sacred Loneliness, etc etc, and good grief. NO I would not have preferred to have lived in the early church. Oh my goodness. I spent most of my life in the church,and I didn't know any of this stuff... I feel sick....

[silverfox]

I've been thinking about the poster that started this thread. I hope everything worked out for the best for them and that they are happy.

[cactus jack]

John there is only so much we can tell you. You have to do the foot work. Most importantly, you are the one that has to learn and decide. Not us.

So I say, as much as everyione may hate me for saying this but, go ahead and join. Experience it first hand. Do the research that we tell you about.

Because until you do learn first hand you will have no true concept of what we are talking about. And it is far better to know first hand the reasons for your decisions instead of saying "I stayed out becuase so & so told me this", because in your mind you will continue having lingering doubts if what we said is really true.

Whatever you decide to do John, I will have you and your welfare in my prayers.

[why me]

I have often wondered what happened to registry. I remember when I first read his post...I became intrigued with his story and questioning nature but even now I wonder if he joined the church or not. I hope that he is happy regardless of his decision. It is a personal matter and there are many LDS people who are happy and contented with their lives. We cannot deny it. Oh, oh, oh registry...where are you now????? happy :) or sad :( ?

[dogzilla]

I sent a private message to registry, asking him to come back and post an update.

We'll see what happens.

[ifitmakesuhappy]

im so glad this thread has been continued. I too have wondered many times what happened next in this story. I hope we get to find out. Im sure whatever decision he made, he is happy with...would love to hear though.

[registry]

Hi guys and gals, I was thinking about posting a while back to bring everyone up to date. Thanks to a PM, I was reminded about doing this. Thanks Dogzilla.

Well not sure if this is exactly what everyone wants to hear, (not that anyone specifically WANTS to hear about a certain result) but I've thought long and hard about this. I've decided against moving forward with becoming LDS. And to be honest, I'm very happy that I came into contact with this board when I did. I felt like there were just so many red flags after reading about all these stories. You guys really opened up my eyes as to what being LDS is all about...the negative part (as well as some of the positive too!). For me, it appeared the more misgivings I had, the more that I realized that joining wouldn't really be the right thing. I was getting excited about joining up and then after reading over some of the stories, and doing some research, I started feeling almost guilty about uncovering some of the LDS "truths." It didn't feel right. I didn't like how before even joining I was feeling guilty...and yet I hadn't even joined. I could only imagine how I would begin to feel after I had joined. It was then that I realized that maybe I was already being pulled in. My heart was being turned against reading some of these posts because I wanted to believe the outward image I had of LDS. I still believe in my heart, however, that the LDS people I've run across are just such incredibly good people. I don't want to ever short them or take away from what I've seen outwardly. It was just some of the inner workings and "cultish" behavior ward dynamics that caused me to decide to steer clear. It also seemed that on a broader scale, institutionally, there were some serious misgivings that I began having about the church's "ways." I have all of you to thank for helping me see this. I have this board to thank for opening up my eyes to a lot that I did not know. Again, I can't emphasize enough that I believe Mormon's are good people, upstanding people. But clearly there was/is so much more to LDS than just being a good person, believing in God. And a lot of it wasn't for me. I didn't appreciate the control over your life aspect that you guys brought to the forefront. The theme, it appears, of gradual manipulation and isolation, didn't sit well with me. Also, some of the guilt and the wrangling that I was beginning to feel over thinking about some of this had a positive effect on me in that I was realizing that this whole thinking was wrong. Why should I be feeling guilty about doing research? Why should I be feeling in some small way unfaithful for questioning before taking a bigger leap? Through this board, and through my own analysis, I came to the conclusion that this was not for me. So here I am...no LDS affiliation, and feeling like I made a good decision. I'm glad you guys were there when I probably needed it most. If I hadn't stumbled upon this board, I could have very well, at this point, been much more involved and been on a path to becoming a full Mormon. The elders came by the other week too...I told them, slightly hesitantly, that I wasn't sure that it was for me. I haven't seen them since then, but I have to believe that it's probably because I've been gone away from home a lot in the last few months.

In conclusion, thanks to everyone for sharing their stories to me. It was an integral part of my decision process, if not the keystone, to the whole thing.

I hope that puts to rest some of everyone's wonderings.

You all are a really great group of people, brutally honest, and a fantastic support group!

Thanks again.

[peter_mary]

Thanks for coming back and telling us "the rest of the Story." Please rest assured that there was no "right" ending for us all, but it is in fact interesting to hear your tale. Your assessment regarding the distinction between all the 'great Mormons' and the 'controling institution' is important, and for your sake, I'm happy that you learned that distinction now rather than later, because it actually affords you a MUCH better opportunity to enjoy those Mormon relationships without the burden of membership and possibly later apostacy. I hope you continue to enjoy the association of the good members who call you friend.

Thanks for coming back!

Peter_Mary

[silverfox]

Hi guys and gals, I was thinking about posting a while back to bring everyone up to date. Thanks to a PM, I was reminded about doing this. Thanks Dogzilla.

Well not sure if this is exactly what everyone wants to hear, (not that anyone specifically WANTS to hear about a certain result) but I've thought long and hard about this. I've decided against moving forward with becoming LDS. And to be honest, I'm very happy that I came into contact with this board when I did. I felt like there were just so many red flags after reading about all these stories. You guys really opened up my eyes as to what being LDS is all about...the negative part (as well as some of the positive too!). For me, it appeared the more misgivings I had, the more that I realized that joining wouldn't really be the right thing. I was getting excited about joining up and then after reading over some of the stories, and doing some research, I started feeling almost guilty about uncovering some of the LDS "truths." It didn't feel right. I didn't like how before even joining I was feeling guilty...and yet I hadn't even joined. I could only imagine how I would begin to feel after I had joined. It was then that I realized that maybe I was already being pulled in. My heart was being turned against reading some of these posts because I wanted to believe the outward image I had of LDS. I still believe in my heart, however, that the LDS people I've run across are just such incredibly good people. I don't want to ever short them or take away from what I've seen outwardly. It was just some of the inner workings and "cultish" behavior ward dynamics that caused me to decide to steer clear. It also seemed that on a broader scale, institutionally, there were some serious misgivings that I began having about the church's "ways." I have all of you to thank for helping me see this. I have this board to thank for opening up my eyes to a lot that I did not know. Again, I can't emphasize enough that I believe Mormon's are good people, upstanding people. But clearly there was/is so much more to LDS than just being a good person, believing in God. And a lot of it wasn't for me. I didn't appreciate the control over your life aspect that you guys brought to the forefront. The theme, it appears, of gradual manipulation and isolation, didn't sit well with me. Also, some of the guilt and the wrangling that I was beginning to feel over thinking about some of this had a positive effect on me in that I was realizing that this whole thinking was wrong. Why should I be feeling guilty about doing research? Why should I be feeling in some small way unfaithful for questioning before taking a bigger leap? Through this board, and through my own analysis, I came to the conclusion that this was not for me. So here I am...no LDS affiliation, and feeling like I made a good decision. I'm glad you guys were there when I probably needed it most. If I hadn't stumbled upon this board, I could have very well, at this point, been much more involved and been on a path to becoming a full Mormon. The elders came by the other week too...I told them, slightly hesitantly, that I wasn't sure that it was for me. I haven't seen them since then, but I have to believe that it's probably because I've been gone away from home a lot in the last few months.

In conclusion, thanks to everyone for sharing their stories to me. It was an integral part of my decision process, if not the keystone, to the whole thing.

I hope that puts to rest some of everyone's wonderings.

You all are a really great group of people, brutally honest, and a fantastic support group!

Thanks again.

Yes, thank you for the update. I have thought about you often but didn't want to "bug" you or make you feel like there was pressure from this end. Thanks, dogzilla for PMing registry and encouraging an update.

You make some interesting points that forced me to reflect back upon my own pre member days. I felt red flags but they were never validated. I experienced the guilt PRIOR to becoming a member that you refer to. I was told it was the Holy Ghost "speaking" to me. ugh. Of course back then info was not at our fingertips like it is today.

I hope the Mormon friends and acquaintances continue to be good to you. I hope your decision does not affect that.

Thank you also for the reminder that there are many many good members that are truly sincerely wonderful people.

Most of all I hope you continue to be part of our community. As you share your "near fate" with Mormonism others will be able to learn from your experiences and thoughts, ideas.

Thanks again.

[dogzilla]

Wow. Now that's what I call a happy ending.