14 Fundamentals of Following a Prophet-prophet opinions?

[silverfox]

When I would question the prophet's instructions, both old and new, DH always said, if he doesn't say it is commandment then it isn't. He would also remind me daily that the prophet will never lead us astray. (I always debated this in reference to the suffering of early saints, the anguish of plural wives, and even in latter days with how the church turns it's head in regard to sexual abuse - I believe many have been led astray). In doing research I found the following talk given by Ezra Taft Benson in 1980 which blows DH's comments out of the water. Click on the link for the full talk. Bolded emphasis mine. My argument is members can't dismiss questionable comments by prophets as being just their opinion. According to this talk, anything that leaves the prophet's mouth is commandment.


http://www.xmission.com/~country/authority/14_fund1.htm

FOURTEEN FUNDAMENTALS IN FOLLOWING THE PROPHETS
By President Ezra Taft Benson
BYU Devotional Assembly
Tuesday, February 26, 1980, 10:00 a.m.

FIRST: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

"Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;

"For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith."

"For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you."

Did you hear what the Lord said about the words of the prophet? We are to "give heed unto all his words"--as if from the Lord's "own mouth."

SECOND: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

THIRD: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

FOURTH: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

President Marion G. Romney tells of this incident, which happened to him:

I remember years ago when I was a Bishop I had President (Heber J.) Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home....Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: 'My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.' Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, 'But you don't need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray." (CR, October 1960, p. 78)

FIFTH: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

SIXTH: The prophet does not have to say "Thus saith the Lord" to give us scripture.

Sometimes there are those who haggle over words. They might say the prophet gave us counsel, but that we are not obligated to follow it unless he says it is a commandment. But the Lord says of the Prophet Joseph, "Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you." (D&C 21:4).

SEVENTH: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

EIGHTH: The prophet is not limited by men's reasoning.

NINTH: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.

TENTH: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.

ELEVENTH: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

TWELFTH: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

THIRTEENTH: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency--the highest quorum in the Church.

FOURTEENTH: The prophet and the presidency--the living prophet and the First Presidency--follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer.

[gracie]

This was a pivotal talk in leading me out of the church. I know from personal experience that he was wrong on a few of these points, so what else might prophets be wrong about? It wasn't long after that, that i "allowed" myself, with shaking hands and a pounding heart, to research so-called anti-mormon sites. Of course, I quickly learned that they were actually just pro-thinking and pro-healthy people sites!!!! yippee! and here I am...
Gracie

[peter_mary]

Doesn't it bother people that it is the friggin' prophet telling people to follow the prophet? Drives me nuts!

"Well, we HAVE to follow the Prophet, because the Prophet said we have to follow the Prophet!"

If that ain't circular, I don't know what is.

Oh, there's also, "We HAVE to believe in God, because God TOLD us we have to believe in God."

Or the ever popular, "We HAVE to follow the scriptures, because the scriptures say we have to follow the scriptures."

Round and round we go, happily chasing our tails into the eternities without a single clue where we're headed.

AAARRRGGHHHHGGGHH!!!!

I feel better now, thank you... :cool:

Paul

[Free-soil]

I was always amazed by the subtle references made about the "educated and learned" They are evil proud individuals who listen not to the words of God but to the words of man! I'm sorry but the facts are facts. Even during my stint in the church, I desired for many months to attend seminary (and not the high school mormon class-real seminary) I recall my bishop discouraging this on several occasions, talking of the pride that would develop and how it would lead me away. It made me crazy and it makes me crazy now to even think about it! They really want you to follow a man that doesn't know anything about hebrew or greek scripture :eek: - but, no worry, his words are supreme. RUBBISH!

[Born Free]

I wonder some time if we miss the point in trying to argue this matter!

Logic shows how fraught this area is, but good Mos love it. So I wonder if what Spong says about fundamentalists and truth is closer to the issue here.

He reckons we make a mistake to think that "truth' is the priority for them; what these people are really pursuing is security,so they will filter to their hearts content, overlooking teh glaringly obvious if necessary, to maintain a position (and their security). They have a world view, and they are determined to maintain it at any price.

How does security relate to the fallibility of Prophets?

Well, if I can pass over control of my life to this external figure, then I avoid responsibility, I can pretend to avoid uncertainity, I can collapse back into the childhood illusion that "All is well in the world - (Mummy and) Daddy have/has matters in hand!" The ultimate retreat from insecurity - crawl back into the womb.

Nathaniel Branden (psychologist and philosopher) has noted in some of his writings that the US should have a Statue of Responsibility in San Franscisco bay to compliment the Status of Liberty in New York harbour, because Liberty and Responsibility can never, ever be separated.

So it follows that if we avoid responsibility, we also default upon our freedom. That is the price Mormons pay for the pseudo-security of an Infallible Prophet.

Yer pays yer money...........

As for me, I would rather pay the price of accepting the insecurities of the real world, and have the attached freedom. After all, the security on offer

Daryl

[outsideriq]

When I would question the prophet's instructions, both old and new, DH always said, if he doesn't say it is commandment then it isn't. He would also remind me daily that the prophet will never lead us astray. (I always debated this in reference to the suffering of early saints, the anguish of plural wives, and even in latter days with how the church turns it's head in regard to sexual abuse - I believe many have been led astray). In doing research I found the following talk given by Ezra Taft Benson in 1980 which blows DH's comments out of the water. Click on the link for the full talk. Bolded emphasis mine. My argument is members can't dismiss questionable comments by prophets as being just their opinion. According to this talk, anything that leaves the prophet's mouth is commandment.


http://www.xmission.com/~country/authority/14_fund1.htm

FOURTEEN FUNDAMENTALS IN FOLLOWING THE PROPHETS
By President Ezra Taft Benson
BYU Devotional Assembly
Tuesday, February 26, 1980, 10:00 a.m.

FIRST: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

"Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;

"For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith."

"For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you."

Did you hear what the Lord said about the words of the prophet? We are to "give heed unto all his words"--as if from the Lord's "own mouth."

SECOND: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

THIRD: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

FOURTH: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

President Marion G. Romney tells of this incident, which happened to him:

I remember years ago when I was a Bishop I had President (Heber J.) Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home....Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: 'My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.' Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, 'But you don't need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray." (CR, October 1960, p. 78)

FIFTH: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

SIXTH: The prophet does not have to say "Thus saith the Lord" to give us scripture.

Sometimes there are those who haggle over words. They might say the prophet gave us counsel, but that we are not obligated to follow it unless he says it is a commandment. But the Lord says of the Prophet Joseph, "Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you." (D&C 21:4).

SEVENTH: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

EIGHTH: The prophet is not limited by men's reasoning.

NINTH: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.

TENTH: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.

ELEVENTH: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

TWELFTH: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

THIRTEENTH: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency--the highest quorum in the Church.

FOURTEENTH: The prophet and the presidency--the living prophet and the First Presidency--follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer.


QUESTION: First...all that about the Prophet or as I would prefer profit, is a bunch of crap. DO they like to treat everyone like they're stupid, or what? My question, however, is what do you or should you say to someone who when confronted with the bs of the LDS Church responds with a "See, that's the people, the doctrine...original Doctrine...wouldn't provide for things like that," and continue with, "It's the original Doctrine that keeps me sane, happy, soothed, and healthy." This happened to me recently and I felt like I had to just nod courteously because I don't know the difference between the crap and the Doctrine. Is the original Doctrine some fabulous, love everyone, judge not and have a nice future document, or is this girl OUT OF HER FRIGGIN' MIND?????? She adjusted her g's about half way through...I think trying to get them out of MY butt.

[silverfox]

QUESTION: First...all that about the Prophet or as I would prefer profit, is a bunch of crap. DO they like to treat everyone like they're stupid, or what? My question, however, is what do you or should you say to someone who when confronted with the bs of the LDS Church responds with a "See, that's the people, the doctrine...original Doctrine...wouldn't provide for things like that," and continue with, "It's the original Doctrine that keeps me sane, happy, soothed, and healthy." This happened to me recently and I felt like I had to just nod courteously because I don't know the difference between the crap and the Doctrine. Is the original Doctrine some fabulous, love everyone, judge not and have a nice future document, or is this girl OUT OF HER FRIGGIN' MIND?????? She adjusted her g's about half way through...I think trying to get them out of MY butt.

This may be over the edge a little bit but it's the ORIGINAL doctrine that many of the current polygamist compounds live by. They have a prophet and what he says goes. You DO NOT disobey and you DO NOT leave, you marry who he tells you to, etc, etc.

I don't understand why at TBM I didn't connect those dots and why TBMs in general don't. If you study the history and the early doctrine....YIKES!

[silverfox]

As we discussed in the "Spirit of None" thread, it was mentioned that we choose to feel the "spirit"....we choose to make choices based on some sort of spiritual emotions.

These profits can do what ever they want and say what ever they want in the name of God and get away with it. I think they HONESTLY believe they are getting direction from God but in reality they are following their own emotions and desires.