How have your attitudes/ideas about sexuality changed since leaving Mo'ism?

[lsands]

Continuing the topic started by dogzilla on sex: I'm curious about how others' thinking has evolved. Nearly all of Mo teachings about sex are about DON"T, it's dangerous, you'll sin if you follow your desires and passions. Sex seems to be equated with LUST only---and not in a good way. If you're attracted to someone, especially if you're married and it's not to your partner, then all that is involved is LUST, and it's evil and you're bad. No wonder there is so much energy in Mo'ism around pornography---the basic attitude, that sex is dirty and nasty and all about certain acts, seems to be similar. The concept of emotional/spiritual intimacy and power isn't discussed and seems to be unknown.

To answer the question I posed: I form my values about sexual expression using the same yardstick that I use in every other aspect of my life: whatever is not harmful to myself or others is okay. And touching myself damn sure doesn't hurt anyone at all!!! :eek:



I have been suprised at how easy it has been for me to give up the feelings of shame and guilt about sex outside of marriage. I have been free to choose what interests or appeals to me---and I'm not talking about particular acts; I'm talking about where, when, and with whom I want to be sexual. I can consider and decide what is comfortable for me without having to bring in the concept of sin or bad or wrong.

Intimacy with someone that would betray his relationship with someone else doesn't appeal to me. Casual sex, with no emotional attachment, doesn't interest me either. I've learned, however, that sex can be an expression of a very human need for connection and affection and closeness. And what, keeping all of the other factors in mind, could be wrong with that?!!! I've learned that all of the guilt and shame they throw at you is nonsense!

Even more, I realize that sexual intimacy can be an expression of deep desire for spirituality as well. I'm currently reading a book by Sam Keen, The Passionate Life: Stages of Loving, that has a quote that expresses something I have felt but could not articulate: [I]"If people were told: what makes carnal desire imperious in you is not its pure carnal element. It is the fact that you put into it the essential part of yourself----the need for Unity, the need for God----they wouldn't believe it. To them it seems obvious that this quality of imperious need belongs to the carnal desire as such. In the same way it seems obvious to the miser that the quality of desirability belongs to gold as such, and not its exchange value." Simone Weil

I welcome the opportunity this board gives for thoughtful self-revelation and discussion.

Laraine

[peter_mary]

Laraine, I'm not sure that I'm going to answer this in the manner in which you were thinking, but here goes...

This has actually been a point of personal revelation for me in the last little while. People who know me well have heard me say often that, "I always feared I was not headed for the Celestial Kingdom." I knew I was not good enough. And my wife was...

Now, I had never committed any "show-stopper" sins (although we had to marry civily and be sealed a year later :o ), but I knew I was too unworthy to ever aspire to the highest levels of the kingdoms of heaven. Reason? I was positively HAUNTED, daily, by my sexuality. And I was convinced from all I read and all I learned that the sexual thoughts, the fantasies, the arousal during a love scene in a forbidden R-rated movie...all of that was a weakness I knew I couldn't overcome.

But I tried, and that was what was killing me. My belief that this part of me was a wickedness that had to be purged resulted in years of self-flagelation. I couldn't even bring myself to watch a movie with my wife that had a love scene, and if we did, I was embarrased beyond belief. If a Victoria's Secret catelog or Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue would find its way to our mailbox, I was overcome with a need to both look and to hurry and throw it away! I was constantly in a state of repentance for my thoughts, beat myself up for looking a little too long at a pretty woman, and I was absolutely ashamed of my physical needs. I KNEW that if I was a really righteous man, I would be able to overcome those needs, and focus only on the Kingdom of God. But I couldn't...

My wife and I have very different "needs" in this regard. Even now that she is not "repressed," her required level of frequency for happiness and good health is about 1/10 of mine. When we were active, I interpreted this as greater righteousness on her part, (10 times more righteous! :) ) and evidence of my carnal nature. My body and heart desired her, but I didn't dare ask for her because of the shame I felt in being less worthy. And when I caved, and she consented, I felt dirty and lower than before.

It was a terrible, sick, desperately unhealthy way of thinking and living, and I wallowed in it for 16 years.

Leaving the Church saved me from that hell. I understand myself better, we have a healthy sex-life (though we still can't quite agree on the frequency! :p ), and I have lost the guilt. In the process, I have noticed a very interesting thing, which the Psychologists on this forum will recognize...when I ceased being consumed by the wickedness of it all, and accepted myself for the biological/human package that I am, the obsession dissipated. We can talk openly about our love life, we can share our fantasies, we can be playful and tender and spontaneous and all the other good things a sex-life should be, and subsequently, the unmet need within has become the fulfilled need without, and my mental health, my marriage, and my love life have never, ever been in a better place than now.

TMI?

Paul

[silverfox]

Continuing the topic started by dogzilla on sex: I'm curious about how others' thinking has evolved. Nearly all of Mo teachings about sex are about DON"T, it's dangerous, you'll sin if you follow your desires and passions.
Laraine

I've always been open regarding sex. Not that I haven't had my share of guilt regarding Mo teachings, I have. But most of the changes have come regarding my attitude toward my CHILDREN and sex. Instead of trying everything I can to avoid them from having it and instilling in them that it's WRONG to have premarital sex, God will be upset, you'll have to tell the bish, blah blah blah, I have changed my approach to providing them with tools and skills to be responsible and prepared for when they DO have it. My older kids had sex when they were teenagers. Yes, this was devastating as I was a TBM parent. ugh I was open and we talked a lot but they were secretive when it came to their "questionable" activities. I now classify "questionable" as normal experimentation for most teens. They were secretive because their normal urges, desires and curiosity were labeled as WRONG and unacceptable. I believe this approach enables member children to make bad choices.

Now that I am out and can value my own method of parenting, I've seen a big change in my kids who are still living at home. My teen daughter who is not active is one of the few virgins in her group of TBM friends. Having the approach that it WILL happen has relieved a lot of stress for her and me. She is not in a hurry to experiment. She knows all about it. She knows how to be prepared. She knows there is emotional price to pay if you rush into it. blah blah blah. My 10 year old knows all about it, too. If they have questions they can ask them.

I have taken the same approach with alcohol and drugs. I've told them they WILL be curious and find themselves in a situation where they have to make a choice and not to be surprised if their desire to experiment allows them to make a "questionable" choice. This doesn't mean they are weak or bad - it means they have normal curiosity. SO IF YOU are going to drink then only have ONE. I've taught all about the effects of alcohol, drugs, etc. They are educated. Now if they DO make the decision to try something hopefully they will not overdo it like so many teens do. But I'm off topic now, sorry.

So far I've had no issues with my teen who is still at home.

My daughter's old boyfriend was pressuring her to have sex. So she ended the relationship because she was just not ready. (this was last spring, she was 16) He is a year younger than her. His family is TBM. He now has a girlfriend who he became intimate with. His mom found out and marched him into the bishop's office and confessed for him. (daughter and he are still good friends) He informed the bishop and his mom that he was still going to have sex and they couldn't do anything to stop him.

IMO, this is so humiliating for children to do this to them, forcing them to confess to a bishop. WHY? To punish and control. (my opinion only of course)

[silverfox]

Leaving the Church saved me from that hell. I understand myself better, we have a healthy sex-life (though we still can't quite agree on the frequency! :p ), and I have lost the guilt. In the process, I have noticed a very interesting thing, which the Psychologists on this forum will recognize...when I ceased being consumed by the wickedness of it all, and accepted myself for the biological/human package that I am, the obsession dissipated. We can talk openly about our love life, we can share our fantasies, we can be playful and tender and spontaneous and all the other good things a sex-life should be, and subsequently, the unmet need within has become the fulfilled need without, and my mental health, my marriage, and my love life have never, ever been in a better place than now.

TMI?

Paul

Thanks for sharing that, Paul. I think this is very common around LDS men. I think I scared my current hubby with how open I am when it comes to talking about sex. It was foreign to him. His parents never talked to him about it EVER. His bishops only always wanted to know how much he masturbated and even gave him books and talks to help him overcome it .How sick is THAT? I found them in a box last summer with little sticky notes from his bishops. He was given a copy of The Miracle Of Forgiveness when his parents caught him and his friends looking at a friend's dad's Playboy collection. My reaction is they act like he committed this horrible unforgiving sin as bad a murder!

All this led to my husband living with a terrible secret for since he was 21. I won't share it out of privacy for him. It wasn't a big weird secret. It's something that happens all the time to many young couples. And like most young couples from TBM homes, they have no where to turn. It wasn't until our "apostacy" that he could share it with me. He had gone to a therapist and confided a couple years ago but his reaction as a TBM therapist caused more damage. My heart breaks knowing that he harbored this "secret" for so many years. This impacted his life in negative ways. The way he treated people, the way he punished himself emotinally. Ugh Makes me sick.

I would have liked to have found a bunch of sticky notes from bishops pointing out all his wonderful qualities and virtues. There is so much focus on what the church thinks is bad.


Am I off topic again? sorry!

[dogzilla]

"sticky notes from bishops"

Snerk.

I'm sure you meant that in a way opposite of how I took it. I was wondering, with all that talk of masturbation, what makes the bishop's notes so sticky?

:p

:: ducking and running ::

[silverfox]

"sticky notes from bishops"

Snerk.

I'm sure you meant that in a way opposite of how I took it. I was wondering, with all that talk of masturbation, what makes the bishop's notes so sticky?

:p

:: ducking and running ::

HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!! Good one!!!!!

[peter_mary]

Now that I am out and can value my own method of parenting, I've seen a big change in my kids who are still living at home. My teen daughter who is not active is one of the few virgins in her group of TBM friends. Having the approach that it WILL happen has relieved a lot of stress for her and me. She is not in a hurry to experiment. She knows all about it. She knows how to be prepared. She knows there is emotional price to pay if you rush into it. blah blah blah. My 10 year old knows all about it, too. If they have questions they can ask them.

I have taken the same approach with alcohol and drugs.

This has been EXACTLY our experience, and while I'm not so naive as to believe "this is the way it always works," still, I think it's worth thinking about. For our boys, once we took away the "theoretical threat" of eternal punishment from a God they couldn't touch or see or smell, and instead focused on the things they COULD relate to, then everything changed. We took away the "sin" and instead talked about what was healthy, what was smart, what were the consequences, etc. for both sex and substance experimentation. We took away the threat of "punishment" both from their parents and from the Church, and let them explore their own thinking about it with us.

They talked about how they had seen that sex messes up people's relationships in High School rather than bring them closer. They talked about the reality of pregnancy and STDs. They talked about sex being an emblem of your committment to another person rather than a sporting activity that kids engage in for fun. They realized that there is no rush to the alter, that there is no damnation if you choose to participate, and they have managed in all of that to develope a sense of personal responsibility...and they have chosen to wait for now, while so many of their friends have jumped right in. It's wild, I tell you, and I was SO surprised, because one of the things you worry about when you leave the Church is, "How will I keep my kids safe now that I don't have the Church to do it for me?" Turns out, the Church might actually have been a part of the problem rather than the solution!

At least it's been that way for our family...others may have very different experiences!

Paul

[Born Free]

I'm currently reading a book by Sam Keen, The Passionate Life: Stages of Loving, that has a quote that expresses something I have felt but could not articulate: "If people were told: what makes carnal desire imperious in you is not its pure carnal element. It is the fact that you put into it the essential part of yourself----the need for Unity, the need for God----they wouldn't believe it. To them it seems obvious that this quality of imperious need belongs to the carnal desire as such. In the same way it seems obvious to the miser that the quality of desirability belongs to gold as such, and not its exchange value." Simone Weil

I welcome the opportunity this board gives for thoughtful self-revelation and discussion.

Laraine

Laraine,

I recently read Keen's Hymn's to an Unknown God after reading Ed's fullsome praise. It lived up to the wrap. Is The Passionate Life a new book? When was it published?

We have a very successful author/psychologist in this country by the name of Steve Biddulph who has written a book called Manhood, in which he defines his 7 steps to manhood. The 2nd is "Finding Sacredness in Your Spirituality" which he positions in marked contrast to the common sordid/shameful/compulsive relationship many men have with their sexuality.

This is a significant project of mine at present, expanding my insight of all that Scared Sexuality might be. Does content of The Passionate Life relate to that subject (as Hymns does)?

Daryl

[Born Free]

To answer the question I posed: I form my values about sexual expression using the same yardstick that I use in every other aspect of my life: whatever is not harmful to myself or others is okay. And touching myself damn sure doesn't hurt anyone at all!!! :eek:

I welcome the opportunity this board gives for thoughtful self-revelation and discussion.

Laraine

Laraine,

Great idea for a thread, and clearly one that animates people.

I can remember being in my mid 20s, already married with several children, and wondering why the promised spiritual waves of affirmation of the Church and the whole deal, were not happening for me. Figured it must have been me, right? (Usual narcissism of the immature)

So I asked, what in my life might I have done that is acting as a block on me "getting it?". (The whole Miracle of Forgiveness script right?)

Needless to say, I could come up with a few things that the God Moism had defined might be less than tickled about. So off to the Bish I trotted, and spilled my guts!

Compassion, understanding, practical wisdom was in abundance, of course! WRONG!

"You did what, WHAT?" I then got a sweaty explanation that some of my activities were in the basket of thing that got Sodom and Gamourah(spelling?) obliterated. (Got your attention didn't it? Sorry, no more details!)

Well, after he calmed down, as I recall I was placed on restricted duties for a few months, and Voila, I was done! Only problem was that nothing changed. The ceiling of my bedroom did not part for Heavenly Visitations! No gross or subtle confirmationof the Church came, and looking back now, I can see that I then slowing embarked upon a journey of making better peace with myself, and seeing with greater clarity the dysfunction of the lives of many who had received "The Message".

So for me, the shift had started well before leaving, and was clearly a part of the leaving.

These days I am much less split regarding sex, much less tense and anxious. My wife and I explicitly discuss and work with our fantasies, thoughts, feelings and impulses with much more confidence and honesty. We are much clearer that to have a fantasy, or to express one will not compell us to run out and do that in the world next moment.

(One interesting element of this was DW having a lesbian content dream whilst pregnant. She was very uncomfortable back then. We later learned that that is not iuncommon occurance.)

Dreams! Now there is an interesting area. I believe dreams can be a great source of information, that our sub-conscious works in imaginative symbolic language that has a great sense of humour, if we will just listen to it. I regard that it should very, very rarely be taken literally. Compare that with Mormonism where one could trash themselves for inappropriate dream content, rather than see and appreciate its encoded offerings.

If there was one BIG single step forward, it was caning those God-forsaken garments. I look back at them with not one fond memory, just disgust, and anger that we were gullible enough to shallow that crock for so long.

I see we have also shed a lot of the gender role rubbish. I know I grew in my capacity to take my heart to bed (which I was historically fearfull of), matched by my wife's increased capacity to occasionally want, request, even playfully demand, sex for its own sake upon occasion. She became (IMO) much more able to shed her "good girl" script, and that brought beenfits to us both.

"Hey, I really need a good s#ag. Get your buns into the bedroom, NOW!" is a slightly different approach to the timid "nice" LDS girl I knew 20 years ago.

Wouldn't go back for all the rice in China!

And yes, like you, I am far less (if at all) conflicted by sex outside marriage, before marriage, even in alternative configurations, provided the activity is inofrmed, concensual, healthy, and life-affirming.

Daryl

[nate]

I think this is very common around LDS men. It was foreign to him. His parents never talked to him about it EVER. His bishops only always wanted to know how much he masturbated and even gave him books and talks to help him overcome it .How sick is THAT?

Too true. I was born Mormon, and was confronted in a Bishop's interview about masturbation before I even knew what it was. At the time, it made me feel great that I did not have knowledge of this sin he was speaking of (which meant that I was a good boy), but that only helped to instill the fear, guilt and shame in me when I hit puberty and I actually DID start having those normal urges and feelings. Even when I had wet dreams as a result of refusing to relieve myself, I felt dirty and would sneak into the basement and do laundry in the middle of the night so my parents wouldn't find out.

On top of that, my parents refused to let me take Sex Education in school. So, every few years when my teachers got to a certain point in the book, they would send me, and only me, out of the classroom to the library for a week or 2. I didn't really comprehend what was going on in the classroom all day as I sat in the library, all I knew was that it was evil. And I never was taught anything at home.

After I finally rebelled and left the church in my late teens I experiment alot. However, even 5+ years later, I would feel overwhelming guilt and shame after sex (and this was mostly in steady relationships). Thankfully, that feeling faded away as my mind slowly deprogrammed. However, despite a healthy sex life, just recently my wife ended up giving me anatomy lessons, because I still didn't fully understand the internal workings of the male and female body (names and position of organs, etc)...I had only learned the actions and results, but never the causes. Imagine the embarrassment of that!!

[free thinker]

I hope you will indulge me for a brief moment as I say this. And please give me the benefit of the doubt as to my integrity etc. Also please note that as far as I can tell, I am not a boor! At least my friends do not think so.

My note to all General Authorities of the LDS faith, and this includes the First Presidency. To all local leaders whoever you might be!!

Concerning Sex!!! Hey Boys!!

MIND YOUR OWN DAMN BUSINESS!!! :mad:

Free Thinker

[Born Free]

On top of that, my parents refused to let me take Sex Education in school. So, every few years when my teachers got to a certain point in the book, they would send me, and only me, out of the classroom to the library for a week or 2. I didn't really comprehend what was going on in the classroom all day as I sat in the library, all I knew was that it was evil. And I never was taught anything at home.


Nate,

Isn't the above so typical of that fearful fundy mindset?

We (Fundies) are afraid, even know, that what they (the pagan, humanist, Satanic hoard) will teach you is wrong even sinful, but we will teach you nothing.

Really helpful, so it is to your credit that you are still courageously expanding those boundaries all these years later.

I recall attending a so-called educational night at a fundy Christian school in the town I grew up in, which was supposedly organised to explore issues surrounding a proposed Government school sex-education initiative.

Well what purported to be education was about as far from that as you could get. I still recall one "rocket scientist" expressing the opinion that he could not see any reason teenage boys needed to understand women's menstrual cycle or even know about it.

I just cannot relate to such a mindset.

Daryl

[Born Free]

I hope you will indulge me for a brief moment as I say this. And please give me the benefit of the doubt as to my integrity etc. Also please note that as far as I can tell, I am not a boor! At least my friends do not think so.

My note to all General Authorities of the LDS faith, and this includes the First Presidency. To all local leaders whoever you might be!!

Concerning Sex!!! Hey Boys!!

MIND YOUR OWN DAMN BUSINESS!!! :mad:

Free Thinker

Can I suggest an amendment:

What people with their own fiddley bits is their own business. Butt out.

When people in positions of power, trust and responsibility attempt to deal inappropriately with others, including their private bits, that IS your business, so how about attending to it with Urgency!

Daryl

[peter_mary]

If there was one BIG single step forward, it was caning those God-forsaken garments. I look back at them with not one fond memory, just disgust, and anger that we were gullible enough to shallow that crock for so long.

Daryl

I will say this, though...if garments were intended to KEEP people morally chaste, they did their job pretty well. I was HAPPY to have my lovely wife cover hers up with 'jammies from head to toe, because that was infinately superior to the anti-sexxy little numbers she bought at Joseph's Secret down at the Beehive Distributors! :D Those hideous things (hers AND mine) went a long way to ensure that no prurient thoughts entered OUR minds as we headed for bed!

(Imagine this little guy ---> :eek: barfing his guts out...)

Paul

[Born Free]

It's wild, I tell you, and I was SO surprised, because one of the things you worry about when you leave the Church is, "How will I keep my kids safe now that I don't have the Church to do it for me?" Turns out, the Church might actually have been a part of the problem rather than the solution!

At least it's been that way for our family...others may have very different experiences!

Paul

Paul,

Very well put and spot on the money from my experience.

The virtue of many of the things that society has concerns about are inbuilt.

When you understand an issue, can communicate the down and upside of particular courses of action, without having to bring in the Fear of God (FoG!) to balster your case, you mount a far more sustainable case. Our kids are not idiots. Respect their intelligence, and they will too.

That rationalisation probably is right up in the top 3 for many parents (certainly was for us) when contemplating leaving, but, like for you, for us it turned out to be a non-issue.

Daryl

[free thinker]

I will say this, though...if garments were intended to KEEP people morally chaste, they did their job pretty well. I was HAPPY to have my lovely wife cover hers up with 'jammies from head to toe, because that was infinately superior to the anti-sexxy little numbers she bought at Joseph's Secret down at the Beehive Distributors! :D Those hideous things (hers AND mine) went a long way to ensure that no prurient thoughts entered OUR minds as we headed for bed!

(Imagine this little guy ---> :eek: barfing his guts out...)

Paul

Isn't it true that the original garments extended to wrist and ankle. If so , then there has been a significant morphing occuring here. Do you think they will ever change to the point of having an authorized pattern available in say, a thong? You could put the marks anywhere you like! :D

Just a thought!!

Free Thinker

[tjohnson]

Isn't it true that the original garments extended to wrist and ankle. If so , then there has been a significant morphing occuring here. Do you think they will ever change to the point of having an authorized pattern available in say, a thong? You could put the marks anywhere you like! :D

Just a thought!!

Free Thinker

Yes, isn't it amazing.... I think the actual "garments" have changed at least 3 times, if not more. They keep getting shorter and "easier" to deal with. Amazing how some things the church can just say "we received revelation of the times, so it's changing", and other things (like the Temple ceremony that just changed a few weeks ago) they just keep quiet and change behind closed doors. :eek: :eek:

[silverfox]

This has been EXACTLY our experience, and while I'm not so naive as to believe "this is the way it always works," still, I think it's worth thinking about. For our boys, once we took away the "theoretical threat" of eternal punishment from a God they couldn't touch or see or smell, and instead focused on the things they COULD relate to, then everything changed. We took away the "sin" and instead talked about what was healthy, what was smart, what were the consequences, etc. for both sex and substance experimentation. We took away the threat of "punishment" both from their parents and from the Church, and let them explore their own thinking about it with us.

Paul

Perfect. And you are right it doesn't work for every sitution. But I noticed when I removed the "sin", the punishments, the emotional stress, I empowered my children to have control. They don't depend on a church to make these personal decisions, they don't depend on a God and they don't depend on a parent to make these personal decisions for them. Allowing them room to make their own decions, thus their own mistakes and arming them with information and tools they become aware of their own personal consequences and not those set by an organization, a God they can't see or a parent who they feel doesn't understand anyway. (in some cases)

I know if the time comes that my daughters wish to make questionable choices they will be able to come to me. My teen daugther shares with me every time she is tempted by alcohol when it is in her presence. She has yet to take a sip (except for when I made her taste a drink so that she could see that you can't always taste alcohol so you best be making your own drinks when with a group) Did this tempt her to want to drink? No. She had the misconception that alcohol was gross and nasty tasting. Now she knows.

[miss taken]

I think I can kind of understand the biblical attitude towards sex (though some kooky stuff went on at times visa viz Noah, daughters and all that stuff, as well as Maid servants of Abraham, and lets not talk about Fanny Alger, which I guess was JS's leverage for it)

Pork carried health dangers so it was prohibited, sex with a number of partners also causes health problems and can be dangerous, particularly in our current world of AIDS for instance.

So, if you want to stay healthy, and put sex in it's right place, it needs to be in a loving, permanent relationship.

I still feel that now.
I do though relate to a lot of what Paul says, in that, it's like the kid with the sweets who is told he can't touch them. So long as he can't touch them, he/she will obsess about them. But, give the kid a few sweets, and they will learn they aren't such a big deal, and get them in perspective.

Some where 'the children of this world are in their generation, wiser than the children of light' comes to mind!!!