Is the world REALLY in a state of decline?

[silverfox]

Or is it just that we are more aware of what is going on because of media avenues? I am curious about your thoughts. We hear all the time that things are going to hell. Are they? Or are we just better informed and more alert and away about things that have gone on forever?

EXAMPLES:

Gay relationships have been around forever. We are more open these days about it because of media. Is it really a bad thing to be open about something that has been around forever? Is it bad to try to understand it? It can strike any home at any time. There is no scientific evidence that I am aware of that says it is or isn't a choice.

Drugs. Drugs have been around forever as well. In the 70s when I was a teen they seemed just as rampant as they are now. Of course there wasn't much publicity about them like there is now. There is more focus in the schools, education, etc. But my dad knew people who smoked pot in the 50s.

Sex. We can't leave this one out. Now I have to say that I do believe there is a little too much irresponsible sex going on in TV land. But sex has always been there. The hookers, adultery, etc. I remember when you never saw a commercial about tampons or condoms. It wasn't spoken of. But is it bad that there is so much publicity regarding such things? Are the commercial bad? Oooo and let's not forget the KY warming gel commercials. Is it damaging to have such commercials on TV? Is it harmful? Does it mean we are in a state of decline?

News. Look what the newscasters bring into our home. Look how much information they make available to us. Again, much of the questionable political events have gone on for years. But now we can know about it. It's hard for anyone to get away with much in politics. It seems to always catch up with them.

Feel free to add. My personal opinion - I've asked myself this question for years. Are we really in a state of decline when we have so much information and resources at our fingertips? What is really damaging to mankind these days? What should be categorized as "decline"?

[wescape]

Well, I certainly agree that the things you mentioned have been around forever and that we are definitely more informed about them due to mass communication/information.

But I think the question I have in response to your question is this:

Are things getting any better?

Obviously it depends on how you define that, but as a whole it doesn't seem like they are to me. I have spent time in various third-world countries and what I have seen is appalling. Poverty and corruption seems to be the norm for the majority of the world. The sex-trade industry is a huge business and in many countries that is the only way people can survive. Children are being sold into prostituion at alarming rates.

Clearly, I am coming from a more global perspective and perhaps you were only referring to the US but we are on top economically and therefore in many ways just as guilty as other countries. Even internally I don't think we have the "be all, end all" of cultures.

Just my two cents.

Wes

[free thinker]

At the risk of sounding a bit polyannish, I would say things are definately getting better!

Racism is in decline. We are much less racist than we have ever been before. I can site numerous examples, but will refrain, as I think this is generally accepted.

We are curing disease that would have left many dead in the past. I believe we will see a cure for cancer in our generation. I also think we will see a cure for diabetes.

We are much more open about taboo topics, and this seems to have the effect of diffusing them a bit. Sex is one of these.

Democracy is spreading. There are more democratic nations than ever in the history of man. Freedom is always good.


Information is flowing more freely via the internet than ever before. I have the internet to thank for my post-mo status. I found information here in a very compacted way, and it saved me a tremendous amount of time.

I truly believe that things are better than they have ever been! But I am an incurable optimist. I know of atrocity, but I am a believer in the human spirit. When I think of Sept 11, 2001 I am grieved, until I consider the tremendous outpouring of assistance during the recent Tsunami in southeast asia!



Free Thinker

[peter_mary]

At the risk of sounding a bit polyannish, I would say thinhgs are definately getting better!

Free Thinker

I haven't traveled around the world, and I expect my perceptions are limited. But I agree with Free Thinker that it seems to me that of all the times in history that I would choose to live, this is it. Although there is conflict in the world, it is isolated to a few pockets, rather than the global empire building and continuous conquering that kept most of the "civilized" world at war for thousands of years. While there is poverty, the world tries to engage in the process of overcoming and sending aid. And MUCH of the world is in a position to do just that. Technology makes our lives comfortable and in many ways more safe (though the weapons we are producing suggest there remains a constant threat). For the most part, it seems to me that people generally get along better, live better, and cooperate better than in any other period in history (with the notable exception of the couple hundred years of peace between the Nephites and the Lamanites after Christ came to this continent! :D )

So it seems to me...

Paul

[Born Free]

One of the things that cults thrive on is 'decline' myths.

Way I see it, growth and decay(expansion and contraction) have always, and will always be the two inexorable forces driving the universe and the Earth.

I find plenty of data which is unknown and unsettling to the thrust of the doomsayers.

Analaysis of skeletal human remains concludes that a smaller percentage of people come to a violent end today, than at any point in history. (I have forgotten my source on that one, but can probably find it if pushed)

In the book Non-Zero, Robert Wright, (also the author of The Moral Animal) argues that rather than being at a point of decline, all of the earths history is of moving to increasing complexity and inter-dependence, and that the tensions present now, are the dying throws of a stage of competitive existence, before we step into a far more peaceful way of co-operative existence. I have bought the book to read, but not got started yet. I was altered to it by the last chapter in Seligman's book - Authentic Happiness, in case any have that and have not read it.

So that is the expansive, positive - growth picture.

On the decay/decline/ implosion picture, I am 54 next birthday, figure I have between 10 and 50 more years and my decline is inevitable and no amount of panic or stressing is going to slow or stop it (particularly as I don't figure God gives a fig if I live another day or not! Notice the Catholics comfortably asking God to extend the Pope's life last week, as if God might listen to them and act forever until they have a 200 or maybe even a 1,000 year old Pope.)

I am also reading The Twilight of American Culture by Berman, which compares the stage the US is at with numerous other cultures across recorded history, and concludes the US has till between 2030 and 2050 as the supreme world power. If he is right (ever culture in history has risen and then failed), then the USA may have a certain bobsledish flavour about it, but I remain quite optomistic about civilisation overall. (God knows even little Oz may get to be a World Power one day!)

Now that view is probably a bit more complex and academic for the average fundy Armagedonist alarmismist, but then the 2nd Coming has been confidently predicted for 2,000 years, so I feel no more need to feel "its a'comin' t'morra" than ever.

MHO
Daryl

[wescape]

I must agree with Daryl that cults do indeed thrive on the whole decline issue. Once again, it's all about using fear to control people. While I disagree with this manipulative tactic that cults often use, I still don't see the world improving as a whole. I would like to qualify that I include myself as part of this problem. I say this only to acknowledge that I am deeply flawed and that it is a "we" problem rather than an "us/them" problem.

[Born Free]

Or is it just that we are more aware of what is going on because of media avenues? I am curious about your thoughts. We hear all the time that things are going to hell. Are they? Or are we just better informed and more alert and away about things that have gone on forever?

EXAMPLES:

Gay relationships have been around forever. We are more open these days about it because of media. Is it really a bad thing to be open about something that has been around forever? Is it bad to try to understand it? It can strike any home at any time. There is no scientific evidence that I am aware of that says it is or isn't a choice.

Drugs. Drugs have been around forever as well. In the 70s when I was a teen they seemed just as rampant as they are now. Of course there wasn't much publicity about them like there is now. There is more focus in the schools, education, etc. But my dad knew people who smoked pot in the 50s.

Sex. We can't leave this one out. Now I have to say that I do believe there is a little too much irresponsible sex going on in TV land. But sex has always been there. The hookers, adultery, etc. I remember when you never saw a commercial about tampons or condoms. It wasn't spoken of. But is it bad that there is so much publicity regarding such things? Are the commercial bad? Oooo and let's not forget the KY warming gel commercials. Is it damaging to have such commercials on TV? Is it harmful? Does it mean we are in a state of decline?

News. Look what the newscasters bring into our home. Look how much information they make available to us. Again, much of the questionable political events have gone on for years. But now we can know about it. It's hard for anyone to get away with much in politics. It seems to always catch up with them.

Feel free to add. My personal opinion - I've asked myself this question for years. Are we really in a state of decline when we have so much information and resources at our fingertips? What is really damaging to mankind these days? What should be categorized as "decline"?

Homosexuality:

"Gay relationships have been around forever. We are more open these days about it because of media. Is it really a bad thing to be open about something that has been around forever? Is it bad to try to understand it? It can strike any home at any time. There is no scientific evidence that I am aware of that says it is or isn't a choice."


We now have no doubt that homosexuality is part of teh natural order. If it is natural how can dealings openly and honestly with it unhelpful?

I see some people take offence at homosexual behaviour like teh Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras. Having lived in Sydney for many years, I know many gays who were offended by the Mardi Gras, feeling it portrayed their sexuality in a sensational, offensive and unhelpful way. But even there I ask myself, if I had been part of a minority that for years had had to hide and feel ashamed of itself, might I have responded to a forum where I could come out and be openly proud of who I was, how I was different, etc. Sure I can!

Paradoxically the studies I read suggest that for those most effended by homosexuality, if homosexuality can be bred out (and that is very questionable) that agenda would be best served by letting homosexuals be homosexuals, (where they will not have offspring, rather than forcing them in to heterosexual relationships where they reproduce, thereby passing on their genes.

But that simple idea seems just too hard for these homophobes to get their heads around. They take offence at open honest sexuality, preferring the sort that traditionally existed - the underground form with all the inherit risks.

(Don't take the above as me being anti-gay! The same argument in reality argues that the systems will self regulate to keep homosexulaity at about 12% of the population, using higher mortality to correct if it gets higher, and fertility to correct if it gets lower.)

Sex
"Sex. We can't leave this one out. Now I have to say that I do believe there is a little too much irresponsible sex going on in TV land. But sex has always been there. The hookers, adultery, etc. I remember when you never saw a commercial about tampons or condoms. It wasn't spoken of. But is it bad that there is so much publicity regarding such things? Are the commercial bad? Oooo and let's not forget the KY warming gel commercials. Is it damaging to have such commercials on TV? Is it harmful? Does it mean we are in a state of decline?"

Sex has always been a powerful force, always will be. As an Australian I am amused by your US free-to-air TV, with its prime morality. I observed 15 yeasr ago to a business colleague in teh US that I was amused by your TV. YOU can't show a bare breast (which we can), but your ads practically come out and say, if you buy a Chevy, you will get laid, faster and more often that if you buy a Ford. I observe no compunction when using sex to entertain or make a dollar, but then in the next breath get all precious about it.

We have had women's sanitary products ads on TV for years. I can see no evidence of delining morals as a result. (I can see a lot of guys who see all the exciting things you gals get to do at that time of the month - swimming, horse-riding, bungy-jumping; and get really jealous :) )

I do regret the way in which teh female body is used to create desire in men for other products and services. I believe that that creates an unconscious belief that feminity can satisfy more than any product can ever deliver, and generate in men a dissatisfaction with real human sexuality. But we only have to refuse to buy such products and lobby the organisations that advertise that way to address the problem.

Drugs:
"Drugs. Drugs have been around forever as well. In the 70s when I was a teen they seemed just as rampant as they are now. Of course there wasn't much publicity about them like there is now. There is more focus in the schools, education, etc. But my dad knew people who smoked pot in the 50s. "

Drugs deliver an experience of an altered reality. Why and when do humans desire such a state? When their reality is not up to scratch and more healthy ways of achieving an alterred reality are not foregrounded.

So when elders cannot convincingly teach the joys achieveable through various pathways like spirituality, advanced sexuality, meditation, then people try to fast-track the process.

How did we get here? I believe through religions that offfered lots and delivered/deliver little, and consumerism that does the same. How do we escape that hollow promise? There are many paths. It that worse today than before. In some ways, and at the same time, we have more choices about different ways of being than ever before.

News:

"News. Look what the newscasters bring into our home. Look how much information they make available to us. Again, much of the questionable political events have gone on for years. But now we can know about it. It's hard for anyone to get away with much in politics. It seems to always catch up with them. "

This is one that does scare the crap out of me. Just view Outfoxed to get a glimpse of how serious the issue is. Most people would rather veg out in front of appauling TV than read one quality newpaper a week. I read research that claims that a major percentage of teh population can't even comprehend one. There are some alarming signs that civilasation did a U turn about 20 years ago, and has been retreating from everything that the Enlightenment has produced since.

Is that irreversable? I hope not, but we need to try to turn that around. Dumbing down the media needs be taken very seriously. Good flow of information is the engine of democracy, and quality education delivers the competence to scrutinize information and wrestle knowledge from it.

I suspect we might have to start stretching out brain around what is beyond capitalismism as we currently have it. Sure it beats communism and socialism hands down, but it sure does not have all the answers, nor is it set in stone.

World Population is one issue that I have a real concern about. The Catholic Church kept it of the agenda for the 2nd last world conference on teh environment. How coudl they, for Gods sake. IMHO we seriously risk s#itting in our own and only nest, unless we reign in world population and leave room for our planet to breath and for our fellow companions here to live and thrive in complex environments.

So, in summary, for me, the idea of sitting here wringing my hand sand repeating "Oh ain't it 'orrible?" is simply unappealing, and I plan on being more active than that.

Daryl

[dogzilla]

Here's what I think. If you think the world is in a state of decline, go turn off your television. Unplug your computer. Back away slowly. Go outside. Look up. Breathe the fresh air. Do you see decline? No? Then you've been buying what they're selling and you haven't been thinking critically about what you see.

Don't get me wrong, I just got a DVR and spent an entire weekend watching three movies at a time! :D

But that doesn't cause me to come in to work on Monday morning and declare the world is headed to hell in a handbasket because Ray Charles won a bunch of posthumous grammys. Remember that all TV and Radio stations are owned by only about six huge corporations. Many, like Fox for example, are owned by extremely right-wing conservative organizations. It's hard for us, post-mormons, to shake off the conditioning that there is such a thing as the Last Days. ::cue creepy music::

I find that when I turn off all the electronic propaganda machines and go commune with mother nature, I realize it's all b.s. Mankind might be in decline in terms of taking personal responsibility for our actions, but little else is going on. Gay people will be gay. Drugs will be around. Sex will continue to be business as usual. It's not that those things are more openly covered in the media, it's that many of us are less likely to question the message the media are trying to spoonfeed us.

Wait a minute... Is this a barfing smilie? :Puking

Oh, that is awesome.

[pseditor]

Here's what I think. If you think the world is in a state of decline, go turn off your television. Unplug your computer. Back away slowly. Go outside. Look up. Breathe the fresh air. Do you see decline? No? Then you've been buying what they're selling and you haven't been thinking critically about what you see.



I know it was never Dogzilla's intention to get my neural network firing (both synapses at once... :o ), but accidents do happen...

First of all, I have to say that I couldn't agree more. When I go outside, breath in deeply, gaze at the stars or the clouds--doesn't matter--I know that all is right with the planet.

That doesn't mean that all is right with every PERSON on the planet. Suffering is in fact real, people die in things like Tsunamis and famines and war. But the PLANET is doing just fine. And somehow, that satisfies me. I long ago gave up feeling significant in this ol' universe. I think of myself as a briefly temporary congregation of a few particles, most of them gas :D that happen to be hanging around in this spot in the grand scheme of things. Me and my kind will leave our impact, however insignificant in the universal scheme of things, on little more than each other. From the perspective of the universe, the world simply "is." Worlds don't decline, they "participate" in the grand dance that is roughly 12 billion years old and still going strong.

So for me, when I get frustrated with the ongoing death in Iraq, I do what Dogzilla recommends...turn off the electronic gizmos which have a bias toward the little havoc human beings tend to wreak on one another, and step outside and check in with the planet...and she's doing just fine. :)

So says I...

Paul

Oops...I'm logged in as pseditor this morning...who the hell is that? :D

[dogzilla]

That's exactly what I'm saying Paul. And since I just had chili for lunch, I'm in total agreement about the gas particles as well! :o

Think about when Hitler committed genocide on millions of Europeans. The world kept right on spinning, didn't she? There was still faith and beauty in the world, it was just hard to find in certain parts of Europe at the time. I'm sure, in the 1940's, there were mormons running all over the place declaring that THESE REALLY ARE THE LAST DAYS. And that was about 60 years ago... did I miss the second coming?

No, I probably didn't miss it. Just like 9/11 was a sign, the Holocaust was a sign, the Bay of Pigs was a sign... they're all signs that humans are out to murder each other as fast as we are trying to recreate ourselves.

I say we should people someone besides old white men in charge, but that's just me...

[formermormon]

So, I realize this thread seems kinda dead, but I still had to chime in.

Most of the examples of so-called "decline" seem to me to be evidence of progress!

1. Gays - people are gay or lesbian. For much of human history, this fact has led to horrible abuses and tragedy, etc., but today (at least in the western world) that is lessening. People can be themselves and pursue happiness. Any gay acceptance in culture, on tv, in movies, is most assuredly a sign of the humanizing progress of our world!

2. Sex - sex is amazing, and so robbed of it's beauty by all of our absurd moralizing. People embracing their sexuality? Great! I score that as progress too!

3. Drugs. Well, some drugs (medicines) are revolutionizing human health, and some drugs (recreational) are fun or mind-expanding, and some drugs (hard stuff) are damaging to people. On the whole, I'd say the good outweighs the bad.

4. media. corporate ownership and consolidation are scary, but the internet and alternative media - good. Again, not overall decline.

I'd add to the top few major improvements: relative racial equality (again, in the U.S.), and relative gender equality (western world). These are HUGE for overall human happiness!

Overall, I really feel like we are in anything but a decline (though I didn't feel that way right after the 2004 election).

[silverfox]

Overall, I really feel like we are in anything but a decline (though I didn't feel that way right after the 2004 election).

LOL :D :D

[Jeff_Ricks]

At the risk of sounding a bit polyannish, I would say things are definately getting better!
Free Thinker

I like this quote by Spong:

"Progress is never achieved in a straight line. Periodically human beings do manage to create a new 'dark age,' but if you take a long range view of both life and history we human beings seem finally to get it right."

Looking at the long range view, looking at where we are as opposed to where were thousands of years ago, I think things are definitely getting better too.

Jeff

[bigeddy]

Here is one of my favorites that I push with all my students and clients:

Sometimes the only way up is down!

Maybe the only way to get involved in stopping the misery is to witness it long enough, watch and participate in the failiing and the falling before we can begin the climb out of the valley between the peaks.

Ed

[david]

I'm bummed that I missed this thread when it was hot. I gotta say I'm surprised at all the responses that suggest a general state of progress. Do you all really believe this?

Now let me be clear: in certain areas progress is undoubtedly being made. In technology and medicine we are clearly better off. And I agree that society is becoming becoming more tolerant. Or are we?

Many philosophers would disagree. There is a strong academic current that argues that in the aggregate, progress is hard to substantiate. Genocide? Still around, I'm afraid. War? Not only still happening, but morphing in ways that we can't fathom. Religious fanaticism? Frankly on the rise. Political polarization? You bet--moderate politicians are an endangered species. Medical advances? Talk to me after the Avian flu epidemic (just a matter of time, according to most public health officials).

Jean Baudrillard has pointed out that in western societies, the fake is replacing the real. To those who say "c'mon!" may I respectfully mention Las Vegas, Disneyland, TV war coverage, civil war reenactments, spectator sports, video games, fast-food, and cybersex as just a few examples where inauthentic experience substitutes for the real. In our culture, image substitutes for reality. Ask anyone who has endured cosmetic surgery in order to boost their self-esteem. And let's not kid ourselves: western culture is becoming world culture.

And pseditor, I have to respectfully protest when you say that the closer you get to nature, the more convinced you are that the world is ok. The innocent victim in Rwanda looks up at night with her missing limbs and sees the same moon you do. How can you say such a thing with a straight face, when global warming and other environmental degradation threaten our very existence?

Rick Roderick, a noted philosopher, suggests that on the whole, societies are experiencing a vanishing sense of reality. Corporations long for the day when our conciousness selves are overpowered by the unconscious, and we become robotic consumers. We aren't that far from such a state. Look into the eyes of any kid who has spent all day playing with his xbox and you'll understand what I mean. Or the drones with garages filled to the brim with crap they never use, whose response to the boredom in their lives is to go shopping.

Richard Kaplan has reported extensively on a growing state of lawlessness in many parts of the world, esp. Africa. Somalian-style anarchy is a very real concept in many places, where tribal dynamics are the only game in town. You don't want to even think about travelling to these dangerous places, and you don't have to, because we are doing just fine here in our safe, western cocoons.

The dignity of humanity, and indeed its survival, and as fragile as ever. And technology cannot solve these problems! It can only cover them up and postpone the advancement of real solutions, which must spring forth from within our collective self. We have a long, long way to go.

[pseditor]

And pseditor, I have to respectfully protest when you say that the closer you get to nature, the more convinced you are that the world is ok. The innocent victim in Rwanda looks up at night with her missing limbs and sees the same moon you do. How can you say such a thing with a straight face, when global warming and other environmental degradation threaten our very existence?



Point noted. Actually, it's just a matter of pespective. From MY perspective, the world isn't about people any more than it's about clouds, ants or snowflakes. It just is, and it does a good job of being what it is. The moon that the victim in Rwanda looks up at is unchanged by whether she, or me, lives another day, is happy, is suffering, is hungry or self actualized. The earth rolls on. If we threaten our own existence, the universe, including our planet, carries on without us. I'm grounded when I remember that. That might freak someone else out, but it's comforting to me that we can screw ourselves, but not the universe.

I'm also sensitive to the perspective of the suffering people, but in a sense, that's a different issue. The universe unfolds moment by moment, and despite the good things or the bad things that people manage to do to themselves, the universe just keeps on evolving. From the perspective of the entire system, all's well.

Maybe that's just me, but yes, I can indeed say that with a straight face. (Unfortunately, we don't have a "straight face" smilie...)

pseditor

[free thinker]

Now let me be clear: in certain areas progress is undoubtedly being made. In technology and medicine we are clearly better off. And I agree that society is becoming becoming more tolerant. Or are we?

David

Very good points! Now let me ask you a simple question.


Would you rather be alive today, or in 1850? ;)

Free Thinker

[david]

Very good points! Now let me ask you a simple question.

Would you rather be alive today, or in 1850? ;)

Free Thinker

Believe it or not, I ask myself such questions all the time. Just for fun of course.

As an educated white male living in an industrialized society in the western hemisphere, I am pretty damn lucky to be living today, I think.

But it's fun to think about the downside of 21st century life. When I go to Mexico (a favorite vacation spot for me), it seems like life there resembles America in the 1930's. A different pace, different sense of time. Closer social connections. A lot of poverty, but the people seem happy. Much less materialism. It feels good.

In 1850, people got pleasure from simple things. Most people played an instrument, for it was the only way to enjoy music for most folks. People sang all the time and there was a common reportoire of songs. Same with games. Dances were big social events with ritualized behavior that was commonly understood and eased social interactions. Great literature and poetry was read with passion and quoted profusely. Travel was difficult, so when people came together it meant something. Goods like furniture and books where hard to come by, so they were cherished, cared for, and passed down through generations. These were some of the things that connected people to each other.

I have to admit that I sometimes imagine that I would enjoy such a world. I find it incredibly difficult to escape the stresses of 21st century life, with so many imperatives and expectations on all fronts. So much white noise and distractions competing for our attention. Inane conversations blurted into our cellphones. So much time spent in our cars. So much ugliness in the built environment. Friendships require huge amounts of work. It seems everything today is a throw-away. Our lives are full of junk, literal junk and figurative junk. It is so hard not to be depressed about it all. Nothing that Prozac can't handle, though!

Now, I am not a misty eyed nostalgist. I'm just saying that the reality that we inhabit today has it's own set of problems. And for many of the world's inhabitants, it might as well be 1850.

Sorry to be such a downer! I really am a fairly happy person! LOL

[free thinker]

In 1850, people got pleasure from simple things. Most people played an instrument, for it was the only way to enjoy music for most folks. People sang all the time and there was a common reportoire of songs. Same with games. Dances were big social events with ritualized behavior that was commonly understood and eased social interactions. Great literature and poetry was read with passion and quoted profusely. Travel was difficult, so when people came together it meant something. Goods like furniture and books where hard to come by, so they were cherished, cared for, and passed down through generations. These were some of the things that connected people to each other.

I can truly relate to your desire for a simpler and more genuine society! Your posts are very thought provoking for me. Sadly, I have to agree with some of your assessment concerning the world today. I definately agree with the idea of not being able to improve ones self esteem with cosmetic surgical improvements. But, having said that, I have enjoyed the fruits of one who had the work done!! :D ( Pardon my injecting vulgarity into this discussion )

In short, I can relate to all you say! Perhaps this is the challenge of our generation. To remain genuine in a somewhat fake society. To not become cynical, and to try to keep warm hearts in a cold world. No condecension here, just me ruminating!!

Thanks for your thoughts. I truly enjoyed reading them!!


Free Thinker

[peter_mary]

But it's fun to think about the downside of 21st century life. When I go to Mexico (a favorite vacation spot for me), it seems like life there resembles America in the 1930's. A different pace, different sense of time. Closer social connections. A lot of poverty, but the people seem happy. Much less materialism. It feels good.

Now, I am not a misty eyed nostalgist. I'm just saying that the reality that we inhabit today has it's own set of problems. And for many of the world's inhabitants, it might as well be 1850.

Sorry to be such a downer! I really am a fairly happy person! LOL

I had a similar experience in Mexico, and it was actually a fairly profound experience for me. We were on a tour bus returning from Chichen Itza (BOM Central! :eek: ) and drove through several Mayan villages. It was October of 1999, and the whole US was consumed with fears regarding the Y2K disaster that was looming. Yet as we drove through those villages, where they had none of the comforts of my life, I realized that they also didn't have most of the fears of my life, either. They would be unaffected by the worst that Y2K could have offered. Their food, their medicine and their supportive relationships were all right there in the jungles of the Yucatan, without any of the technological gizmos that I relied upon.

But it's a tradeoff--I got to see their world because of the advantages I have in that regard, while they'll never get to see the world at all beyond the several square miles around their village.

It occurs to me that nostalgia for a past way of life is in part about comfort with the known, and discomfort with the unknown. But societies have always evolved from a place of "known" to something not yet known. We always live on the cusp of "what we are evolving toward" without knowing fully what that will be until a hundred years later and we look back, saying, "Those were the good old days!" Well, were they really, objectively "better," or just familiar in the face of the looming unknown?

I see ourselves faced with that changing, evolving dynamic especially poignantly right now, in part because of the rapid rate at which technology changes the landscape of our society. But there are other issues, too.

Remember how destabilizing the Civil Rights movement was for this country? There were people like Ezra Taft Benson, Harold B. Lee, Bruce McConkie, and others who were convinced that keeping black people seperate from white people was the way it should be, if for no other REAL reason than that's the way it always has been. There was, and still is, a lot of pain in evolving out of that mindset, but it was going to happen...systems DO evolve. And looking back on it now, most of us acknowledge that it was a good thing, but it was scary for people at the time.

Society (at least in this country) is on the brink of another scary change for a lot of people...granting family privileges to same-sex couples. So many people are looking back and saying, "It's always been this way, why can't we keep it clean and simple and leave things alone? It threatens the fabric of society to change!" Well, does it really threaten it to change, or does it actually threaten it more to try to keep it from changing? Can you stop the advancing edge of cultural evolution? I don't think so.

To a degree, I wonder if the intrigue with the way things were in 1850 is the same way. We are overcome by the complexity that exists in our lives right now, but is it possible that society ALWAYS exists at the complex edge between the known past and the unknown future? Perhaps life in 1850 was NOT the idyllic, simple time FOR THEM that it seems to us, but for THEM was relatively speaking as fast-paced, with the same worries about what lies ahead? Perhaps THOSE people looked back and said, "Gosh, 1750 was such a simpler time, when people really knew what was important..."

I don't know, I'm just musing here, but still, I wonder...

Peter_Mary

[miss taken]

I'm not sure that I really understand the question?

What do we mean by world. Would that be only people? Would it be their relationships with each other on a social/cultural level, or would it be the way people interact with the natural world? Would it relate to physical health?

What is meant by decline? Would it relate to moral decline? Whose yardstick do we use to judge? It's a wooly question that needs pinning down to specifics...

The question also suggests some kind of time continuum.
It suggests that we know what the world was like yesterday and can compare, when we probably can't.

Humans have impacted on the environment in terms of extinction of other species, and the quality of fresh air/pollution. Yet one volcano can put more carbon dioxide up into the atmosphere than most of the industrial nations polluting capacity.

Humans have always lived in societies with varying degrees of care, and its opposites. War has always been a fact of life as has genocide, infanticide, and so forth.

I have always admired people like Jesus of Nazareth, Mahatma Gandhi, who chose a peaceful path to solving problems.

I agree with Peter Mary also, that the universe will keep rolling whether we screw up or not.

I used to love the Star Trek series, because basically they were very optimistic about the human capacity to seek a way of life that would be the most beneficial to the individual and the community as a whole, whilst recognising the relative merits of different species who based their cultures on different ideologies and evolutionary slants.

:D

[free thinker]

I'm not sure that I really understand the question?

What do we mean by world. Would that be only people? Would it be their relationships with each other on a social/cultural level, or would it be the way people interact with the natural world? Would it relate to physical health?

What is meant by decline? Would it relate to moral decline? Whose yardstick do we use to judge? It's a wooly question that needs pinning down to specifics...

The question also suggests some kind of time continuum.
It suggests that we know what the world was like yesterday and can compare, when we probably can't.

Humans have impacted on the environment in terms of extinction of other species, and the quality of fresh air/pollution. Yet one volcano can put more carbon dioxide up into the atmosphere than most of the industrial nations polluting capacity.

Humans have always lived in societies with varying degrees of care, and its opposites. War has always been a fact of life as has genocide, infanticide, and so forth.

I have always admired people like Jesus of Nazareth, ]Mahatma Gandhi, who chose a peaceful path to solving problems.

I agree with Peter Mary also, that the universe will keep rolling whether we screw up or not.

I used to love the Star Trek series, because basically they were very optimistic about the human capacity to seek a way of life that would be the most beneficial to the individual and the community as a whole, whilst recognising the relative merits of different species who based their cultures on different ideologies and evolutionary slants.[/B]


Good thing formermormon resurrected this thread!!

I agree with everything you said misstaken!!

Free Thinker