Annoying letter from my TBM sis.

[utater]

After over two years from telling my sis that I don't want to discuss religion and we just need to agree to disagree because she was not willing to read anything that might jeopardize her testimony I get the following from her. Is it just me or is this as condescending, arrogant and self righteous as I'm taking it to be? My thoughts are in parentheses.


"I'm reading lots and lots of stuff from our church leaders. I must say,
if ever you get the desire to return, let me know. I know you'll probably
groan at that now, but someday you will return whether you believe that
now or not. I know you will.

(Sorry, but you know no such thing. And why would I let you know, so you could gloat?)

I prefer to think of speaking with you about church matters (if you want to)
the same way I do with my non-mormon friends. Usually most don't want
to learn as much as they want to not come not because of doctrine, but
because they drink alcohol, smoke, etc. The importance of mind over body.

(Good gawd! So all your non-member friends you think would be clammoring to sign up with Mormon Inc. if it were not for their weak disgusting little habits like enjoying a cup of coffee.
I wonder if these so called friends can see through this transparency.)

Have you considered taking your name off the records of the church?
Generally, that is what people do when they feel the way you do.

(Oh really? How is it that I feel and how does she presume to
know how everyone else feels?)

I just can't accept what you're studying as true and I never will. It
doesn't mean we can't talk and be friends. But, I've had too many witnesses
to make me change what brings me light and knowlege which I know comes
from God.

(She has no clue what I've been reading or studying or that
most of what she is referring to can be found in the church's own publications. ARGHHHH!)

It has been a great year for me teaching the Book of Mormon. I am reading it'
verse by verse. There are loads of 'witnesses' in it, both wicked witnesses and
the righteous witnesses. One interesting truth I've learned lately is about the
Gadianton robbers where also in the same verse mentioning witchcraft,
magic art right alongst the list of robgbers, murderers, theives etc. located
in numerous places. Just to mention that I do know these things are true
personally.

(WTF????)

in Mormon 2:10. no man could keep that which was his own
Mormon 1:18 - hide up treasures
Mormon 1:19 there were sorceries, witchcrafts, and magic and the power
of the evil one was wrought upon all the face of the land
Helaman 13:18 whoso hide up treasures find them no more
Ether 14:1 if a man lay his tool/sword on a shelf - morrow could not find it
Can't find the scripture right now, but mentioned the people who had their
treasures taken suffered great afflictions.

the wicked to take the treasures for gain and to hurt the righteous.
The church has always said that the Book of Mormon was written for our day -
that it contains messages for those of us today to seek and find and know
that these things are going on still today. They are!"

(I'll say it again...WTF?????)

That's it. So far I've ignored this. Curious to know if any of you would respond and what you would say to her. Sorry for any spelling errors. Is there a spell check feature on here?

[Born Free]

After over two years from telling my sis that I don't want to discuss religion and we just need to agree to disagree because she was not willing to read anything that might jeopardize her testimony I get the following from her. Is it just me or is this as condescending, arrogant and self righteous as I'm taking it to be? My thoughts are in parentheses.


<snip>

(Sorry, but you know no such thing. And why would I let you know, so you could gloat?)

I prefer to think of speaking with you about church matters (if you want to)

<snip>

(Good gawd! So all your non-member friends you think would be clammoring to sign up with Mormon Inc. if it were not for their weak disgusting little habits like enjoying a cup of coffee.
I wonder if these so called friends can see through this transparency.)

<snip>

(Oh really? How is it that I feel and how does she presume to
know how everyone else feels?)

<snip>

(She has no clue what I've been reading or studying or that
most of what she is referring to can be found in the church's own publications. ARGHHHH!)

<snip>

(WTF????)

<snip>

(I'll say it again...WTF?????)

That's it. So far I've ignored this. Curious to know if any of you would respond and what you would say to her. Sorry for any spelling errors. Is there a spell check feature on here?
utater,

I think you are doing marvellously well in grasping what is happening here.

All the way through, she presumes to know your experience (how arrogant, but typically Mormon), and then on the top of that presumption, makes her little-minded-Mo interpretation on what that means, as she has been spoon fed to believe.

You appear to see that with blinding clarity, and you can't ask for more than that.

BTW, I have not welcomed you here yet. Welcome, welcome Tuesday evening (or Wednesday afternoon if you are in Oz like me)! and all that. Always great to see a new face, and most particularly one who has got a great grip on the McMoMindGames.

On the subject of responses, that is a challenge because most Mos are on transmit. You might consider taking all her statements where she has stuffed words in your mouth, thoughts in your head and motivations in your heart, and reclaim all those.

Point out each incident, and name it for what it is, and then say to her if she really wants to know about your inner world, then ask,; but until then you don't welcome her double-guessing you.

You might say that in your real friendships, your friends are really interested to know about your inner world, and when you share it, they welcome it, and don't prejudge and judge it. By contrast, in your dealings with her, she seems to assume to know all about your inner workings, by mind-reading, and show little to no openness to what is really going on for you. That leaves extremely limited scope for intimacy.

Just a few options there. I hope some small part helps, but let me be really clear. Your insight into the problem (as I read it from what you quoted) seems first class.

Daryl

[fh451]

Hey, Utater! Yes, it is terribly condescending and self-righteous, but unfortunately she is re-enforcing the mormon stereotype. I'm sure she thinks she's just bearing humble testimony, and gosh, it's just ALL TRUE!:slap: It is amazing how TBMs can forsee the future, know your true feelings, and speak for every non-member out there. After all, Ammon the greatest BofM arm-chopping missionary was able to read the mind of King Lamoni.

It's sad that people spend so much serious time and energy on the BofM, considering how poorly it reads and how laughably inauthentic it is. I'm sure if someone said "The Lord of the Rings" was written for our time, they could find plenty of passages that could be applied to modern society (classic good vs evil). These could be considered evidence of it's "Truth".

So, how does Sis react if you send her information that conradicts her "testimony?" I could guess the answer to this, but have you asked her if the church weren't true, would she want to know? And from there, how would she? I would guess she wouldn't want to know, and the very question is just academic, because she can't even consider the possibility. Perhaps you should just remind her of some civility boundaries, and that if she really wants to talk, then leave out the church BS in the future. I wouldn't bother responding to the content.

Good luck,

fh451

[utater]

Yes, I did ask her about 3 years ago the question "If the church were not true, would you want to know?" Her response was "I would have to have proof." Then I told her
that there was much damaging evidence to indicate that JS
was not being truthful about his experiences and started to give her a reading list. That is when she said, "But I don't
want to read anything that will damage my testimony."

She has no idea how ridiculous (sp)? that statement sounds.
I mean if you know something, you know it right? Then she goes into the speil about if what you're reading makes you feel good it is truth and if it makes you feel bad it's not of
God but of Satan! I responded to her that you could read the story of Cinderella and feel really good and then read USA Today and feel really bad. Does that mean that Cinderella is
true and the news is of Satan? No response. She, like so many others just have their pre-programed responses at the
ready and don't even really think about what they are saying.

I have learned to just kind of let the insane remarks roll off and ignore them. I used to just want to go beat my head against the wall after a session with her but I'm developing more patience or restraint or something. If it were not for websites like this though I think I'd go mad. OTOH, if it were not for websites like this I'd most likely still be trying to conform and all that. So glad I was willing to answer "Yes" to
the question about wanting to know.

Here is another question I like to ask. "If you found out the church wasn't true, what would YOU do?"

[puff]

yes she is a simple soul with an uncomplicated view , remember she is doing this because she cares about you a lot , treat her kindly and assure her your happy where you are

[peter_mary]

Loved the letter, Utater, thanks for passing it along.

There's another way to look at these kinds of things...as anthropological studies. It is fascinating to me to sit back and really study these kinds of interactions. What motivates them? Why is she fearful of reading? Why is truth and the spirit of God so weak that they would be overwhelmed by other ideas should she expose herself to them? Why is she so confident in both her own actions AND yours? And how is she exactly like every other faithful Mormon/Christian/Muslim/Jew in the world?

This is exactly what keeps me, personally, engaged...trying to understand the cultural components that generate this kind of letter, this kind of thinking. I feel like there is SO much to learn by observing this little slice of western society and its prevailing paradigms that I thoroughly enjoy being an observer. So one approach is to sit back, and egg her on...see what ELSE spills out!

But then, I'm an evil, evil man... :D

[utater]

Are you familiar with Bob McCue's website? Reading through
his material has been a tremendous help in understanding
the TBM behavior and yes it can be rather entertaining in a
maddening sort of way. ;)

[lunaverse]

Point out each incident, and name it for what it is, and then say to her if she really wants to know about your inner world, then ask,; but until then you don't welcome her double-guessing you.

You might say that in your real friendships, your friends are really interested to know about your inner world, and when you share it, they welcome it, and don't prejudge and judge it. By contrast, in your dealings with her, she seems to assume to know all about your inner workings, by mind-reading, and show little to no openness to what is really going on for you. That leaves extremely limited scope for intimacy.


Agreed. I called my parents on their mind reading abilities a few years back... And their judgementalism. And assumptions. While my mother avidly denied it... she tries really really really hard not to do it anymore. She's actually doing a pretty good job. :) She probably still makes these assumptions to herself, ;) but at least she does it quietly.

Luna

[fh451]

I mean if you know something, you know it right? Then she goes into the speil about if what you're reading makes you feel good it is truth and if it makes you feel bad it's not of
God but of Satan! I responded to her that you could read the story of Cinderella and feel really good and then read USA Today and feel really bad. Does that mean that Cinderella is
true and the news is of Satan? No response. She, like so many others just have their pre-programed responses at the
ready and don't even really think about what they are saying.

My brother said almost exactly the same thing. Reading "that stuff" about early church history and other damaging information just made him "feel bad." My response is that I've read probably a dozen books on the Holocaust, and not one of them made me feel good. In fact, some of them were quite sickening. Does that mean they were false? Quite the contrary - the holocaust was an undeniable series of events. Sometimes we have to face up to the uncomfortable truths in life.

fh451

[puff]

Are you familiar with Bob McCue's website? Reading through
his material has been a tremendous help in understanding
the TBM behavior and yes it can be rather entertaining in a
maddening sort of way. ;)could you give me the address for bobs website , i enjoy his views

[fh451]

could you give me the address for bobs website , i enjoy his views
Here: Bob McCue's Website (http://mccue.cc/bob/start.htm)

fh451

[helemon]

My brother said almost exactly the same thing. Reading "that stuff" about early church history and other damaging information just made him "feel bad." My response is that I've read probably a dozen books on the Holocaust, and not one of them made me feel good. In fact, some of them were quite sickening. Does that mean they were false? Quite the contrary - the holocaust was an undeniable series of events. Sometimes we have to face up to the uncomfortable truths in life.

fh451

That stuff makes them feel bad because it conflicts with their current asumptions about reality and suggests that the person and people whom they have been taught to trust and revere the most were liars and cheats. How can that make anyone feel good? If you found out that your lovely wife had been cheating on you behind your back would you feel good about that information? No of course not. Would you rather ignore information that indicated she has been cheating on you so that you can preserve your loving feelings toward her? I doubt many people would say yes. Pain or feeling bad does not mean something is of the devil, it means something is hurting you whether physically or emotionally. Betrayal of all kinds causes pain. As Wesley said, "Life is pain princess, anyone who tells you otherwise is selling you something." If the church is trying to get people to only pay attention to things that make them feel good it is because they are selling them something.