With a little help from some..friends?

[neomonk]

This might be a long one, and something you’ve heard before, so please exuse me off the bat.

I’d love to introduce myself, but I’m afraid I have to stay somewhat anonymous for the sake of parties concerned. I’ll go by Bruce though.

I met my girlfriend over a year ago at College. She is great, an amazing girl who has truly touched my life in a very special way. When we started to court, the subject for Religion came up, I asked if she was religious. She said she was a Mormon, I smiled and nodded and and smiled and nodded. I have no freaking clue what a Mormon was, or what they where about, nor did I care. I am totally agnostic, and religion is no concern to me. Anyway, that was that, we started to date, and what not, and all was fine.

About December last year I decided I should stop being ignorant to her faith and learn a little about it, I went to church with her a few times, it seemed fairly normal except for 2 things, this odd “Book of Mormon” and, also I noted a distinct lack of crucifixes in the church. When I quizzed her on the lack of the cross she informed me the tended not to dwell on the death of Christ, as it is irrelevant and sad, not filled with joy. So then Christmas came and I went to my family and she went to hers, I was bored for a month so I did some research online about the LDS church, Joe Smith, etc.

You know what is coming next….

The Bomb hit.

What on earth was my little girl muddled up in? The most amazing girl I’ve ever met in the world was a part of THIS?! I was shocked, it utterly defied logic.

How on earth could she believe these things? I thought she was a Christian? And yet Joseph Smith was a lier, and sexual deviant, and from what I could tell verging on insane.

I immediately shot off an email to her, asking her about it, telling her I was amazed. She informed me I was reading anti-mormon literature and that they where just out to destroy the faith. I could not believe it, I was shocked.. She.. was..defending them? How could anyone defend this. I mean, the saints say Plural marriage was a dated practice, ungodly, and god changes his mind, and yet the public record shows the founder of the church himself was not only a polygamist, but also a child molester, some of the children he married here as young as 13!

I dug more and more, showed her more and more, and more and more I think she started to realize I was onto something. That maybe there was some major issues with her church.

I’d like to interject into my story here, with some further insight on the situation. My girlfriend was raised a mormon, by her mormon family, as a good mormon. It’s all she ever knew of god, Christ, church, etc.. a very important part of her life. I now realize to have that shattered, to have the foundation of her morality crushed, is a HUGE thing, and if I where her, I would want to turn the other way too.

But, she didn’t, well not totally anyway. She defended them, she always had some counter to my argument. I was starting to think that in reality she would never see the truth and this major thing might split up apart, I was becoming very very depressed and I didn’t know what to do. I felt so angry at the church, and I’m not even a member! How could they do this to the person I love most, how could they lie to her, fool her.. and for what? I didn’t even know what for, I still don’t know why they do it.. money, power, I don’t know…maybe they truly believe what they are doing is right. I don’t understand that aspect of Mormonism AT ALL (maybe someone can provide some insight for me..)

Anyway, about 3 months ago she confessed to me she had always had a problem with some of the things the Church said, and that although she god mad at me for supporting her faith, inside she was doubting it herself. I felt, and still feel so awful inside.

So I bought a bunch of books, Under the Banner of Heaven, Out of Mormonism: A Women’s True Story, and Byond Mormonism, and Elders Story (she had yet to read them, as she is with her family right now, but as of September she will be back at school with me!)

I also started to point out all the problems with the church, smith, how anti-Christian it is. She has started to acknowledge them, and I think she is considering leaving the church, but we are at a weird point… I don’t know if I should keep pushing her to look at the facts, just let her do her own thing? She does not know if she should look for another church. I’ve more recently been finding out how much mormon doctrine is different from basic Christianity. So then.. what church?

I think another one of her major hang ups is.. ok, there is bad in the church, but look at all the good they do, all the aid they give, all the help they give outside of the church, why not be a part of that.

I guess I’m not really sure what I’m asking here.. I don’t know how to proceed with her. I don’t know how to help her, I don’t know how much I should give her and how much digging she needs to do herself. How do I deprogram all that she thinks she knows about Christianity? It seems like such a huge impossible task. People have told me to walk away from it, leave her to it, come back in a few years and see where she is. But I love her, more than anything… and I’ll fight for her, every second of every day, even if she chose to stay mormon, I’d be right there with her holding her hand.

Thanks for reading, I think part of this is the need to vent.

Thanks agin.

[helemon]

So I bought a bunch of books, Under the Banner of Heaven, Out of Mormonism: A Women’s True Story, and Byond Mormonism, and Elders Story (she had yet to read them, as she is with her family right now, but as of September she will be back at school with me!)

I would have her read "In Sacred Loneliness" by Todd Compton, a member and still active I think.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/156085085X/sr=8-1/qid=1153886986/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-6309482-0448828?ie=UTF8

And "An Insiders View of Mormon Origins" by Grant Palmer, a former instructor and administrator in the Church Eduction System and still a member although currently disfellowshipped because of what he wrote
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1560851570/sr=1-1/qid=1153887031/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-6309482-0448828?ie=UTF8&s=books

But you also need to realize that her leaving the church could permanently damager her relationship with her parents and siblings. She may feel like she is forced to choose between you or her family. Its good to see that she sounds like she is starting to question what she was taught as a child but tread carefully. If you really care about her make sure she never doubts that as you are presenting this information to you otherwise her confusion and anger could get directed at you. Does she have LDS friends as school that she hangs out with? If she does they may also try to make her break up with you. I am suprised she is going out with you in the first place since you can't "take her to the temple" or was she hoping to convert you? Anyway, proceed cautiously. If you read some of the exit stories on this site and on www.exmormon.org you will see that this process can be very traumatic.

Good luck!!

[Born Free]

Check out this excellent article by a skeptic:

http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-11/beliefs.html

Why Bad Beliefs Don't Die

"Because beliefs are designed to enhance our ability to survive, they are biologically designed to be strongly resistant to change. To change beliefs, skeptics must address the brain's "survival" issues of meanings and implications in addition to discussing their data."
Its conclusion is:
Implications for Skeptics

Skeptical thinkers must realize that because of the survival value of beliefs, disconfirming evidence will rarely, if ever, be sufficient to change beliefs, even in "otherwise intelligent" people. In order to effectively change beliefs skeptics must attend to their survival value, not just their data-accuracy value. This involves several elements.

First, skeptics must not expect beliefs to change simply as the result of data or assuming that people are stupid because their beliefs don't change. They must avoid becoming critical or demeaning in response to the resilience of beliefs. People are not necessarily idiots just because their beliefs don't yield to new information. Data is always necessary, but it is rarely sufficient.

Second, skeptics must learn to always discuss not just the specific topic addressed by the data, but also the implications that changing the related beliefs will have for the fundamental worldview and belief system of the affected individuals. Unfortunately, addressing belief systems is a much more complicated and daunting task than simply presenting contradictory evidence. Skeptics must discuss the meaning of their data in the face of the brain's need to maintain its belief system in order to maintain a sense of wholeness, consistency, and control in life. Skeptics must become adept at discussing issues of fundamental philosophies and the existential anxiety that is stirred up any time beliefs are challenged. The task is every bit as much philosophical and psychological as it is scientific and data-based.

Third, and perhaps most important, skeptics must always appreciate how hard it is for people to have their beliefs challenged. It is, quite literally, a threat to their brain's sense of survival. It is entirely normal for people to be defensive in such situations. The brain feels it is fighting for its life. It is unfortunate that this can produce behavior that is provocative, hostile, and even vicious, but it is understandable as well.

The lesson for skeptics is to understand that people are generally not intending to be mean, contrary, harsh, or stupid when they are challenged. It's a fight for survival. The only effective way to deal with this type of defensiveness is to de-escalate the fighting rather than inflame it. Becoming sarcastic or demeaning simply gives the other person's defenses a foothold to engage in a tit-for-tat exchange that justifies their feelings of being threatened ("Of course we fight the skeptics-look what uncaring, hostile jerks they are!") rather than a continued focus on the truth.

Skeptics will only win the war for rational beliefs by continuing, even in the face of defensive responses from others, to use behavior that is unfailingly dignified and tactful and that communicates respect and wisdom. For the data to speak loudly, skeptics must always refrain from screaming.

Finally, it should be comforting to all skeptics to remember that the truly amazing part of all of this is not that so few beliefs change or that people can be so irrational, but that anyone's beliefs ever change at all. Skeptics' ability to alter their own beliefs in response to data is a true gift; a unique, powerful, and precious ability. It is genuinely a "higher brain function" in that it goes against some of the most natural and fundamental biological urges. Skeptics must appreciate the power and, truly, the dangerousness that this ability bestows upon them. They have in their possession a skill that can be frightening, life-changing, and capable of inducing pain. In turning this ability on others it should be used carefully and wisely. Challenging beliefs must always be done with care and compassion.

Skeptics must remember to always keep their eye on the goal. They must see the long view. They must attempt to win the war for rational beliefs, not to engage in a fight to the death over any one particular battle with any one particular individual or any one particular belief. Not only must skeptics' methods and data be clean, direct, and unbiased, their demeanor and behavior must be as well."


Read it and see if you find it as helpful as I did.

Daryl

[neomonk]

Does she have LDS friends as school that she hangs out with? If she does they may also try to make her break up with you. I am suprised she is going out with you in the first place since you can't "take her to the temple" or was she hoping to convert you? Anyway, proceed cautiously. If you read some of the exit stories on this site and on www.exmormon.org you will see that this process can be very traumatic.

Good luck!!

Hi there, and thanks for the prompt reply. She had no LDS friends at school. She was not hoping to convert me, she is not a crazy hardcore mormon, she does not want a temple marriage. Also, we lived together for 7 months before her parents freaked out.

[frauline]

Well, I am not a psychologist or anything but I think my experience has merit.

I have one sister who was 12 when my parents joined the church and she never bought into the whole story and gladly went about her years since hating the church and thinking the whole thing was crazy.

Sister #2 was 7 when my parents joined. She believed it was true but saw enough good in her non mormon friends to know that they had happy lives without mormonism. She felt more accepted with them and lived their lifestyle through her teenage years (premarital sex, marrying a non mormon, social drinking, etc.) She always felt guilty for not living up to the highest of God's laws, which caused depression and low self esteem.

Then there was me. I was 3. Purely brainwashed. I wanted to be good because the better I was at being a mormon, the more attention I got at church. I did everything by the book - Went to BYU (the real one), married an RM 8 months after his mission in the temple - the weekend after sophomore finals!

Fast forward past many callings, years of service, and money donated to build a mall in SLC. My husband and I read Grant Palmer's book because we thought it was safe reading to reconcile crazy church history and reality and still keep our testimonies.

Obviously, it became glaringly apparent that the Disney version of church history that I loved, was only part of the story (a half truth) and we all know from primary that the church considers half truths equal to a lie!

I happily told my sisters that my husband and I will no longer be practicing mormons and we considered it a bunch of bologna.

My middle sister felt so relieved. She didn't know if her doubts were caused by her being seperated from the Spirit because of her lifestyle.

So my theory is that people who don't live up to the standards of the church (which is basically impossible for anyone to do EVERYTHING required of them) never act on their doubts because they worry the doubts exist because of sin. In reality, the doubts exist because our subconscious is screaming for escape from mormonism!

[lunaverse]

Hi there, and thanks for the prompt reply. She had no LDS friends at school. She was not hoping to convert me, she is not a crazy hardcore mormon, she does not want a temple marriage. Also, we lived together for 7 months before her parents freaked out.

It sounds like from that, that she had on some level already "divorced" the Church, but still remains attached to it. She may be more open to the things you present her, because on some level, she already disbelieves. As you said, she had already had some doubts.

I know for myself, on a very, very deep hidden level, I so wanted someone to come and steal me away from it. I had vampire fantasies, now I realize this was a reflection of the unspoken rationale that if I was taken by force, it would not be my choice, and therefore I wouldn't be accountable.

She has already crossed a lot more lines than I had at that point, so that's good news.

I would recommend just being there for her, giving her information you think she will like or that will help her, but not going too fast. If she starts to resist, don't keep pushing, just relax for a while. Be there to validate her various feelings and thoughts, as she is likely to be confused for a while. But the chances are high that she will eventually leave for good, since it sounds like she's a lot less close-minded than most Mormons. (Otherwise, she never would have dated you or especially lived with you.)

If she does completely detach herself from the Church, she may go through a rough time where she will struggle with her identity, beliefs, feel lost, alone, confused, angry, deceived, guilty, afraid of death, desires to go back, and who knows what else. It's important for you to understand that these feelings are normal for anyone leaving a deeply-embeded belief system. She was taught that leaving her faith would mean spiritual death and a lot of other bad things for her personally, and for her family.

It sounds like your heart is in the right place, so I think it will work out. There is always the danger that something will happen and she will get it into her head she has sinned, gone off the deep end, and she needs to repent. If that happens, she will leave you, go back to her family, and become a hardcore churchy. It's a slim chance, but be aware it could happen. That's why honesty and integrity on your part will really be important.

It's all about planting seeds, not hitting her with the Baseball Bat of Truth. :) Hitting people too hard with disconfirming evidence can trigger strong Cognative Dissonance resistance, which can actually makes a person believe even more strongly. She's probably past that point, but just tread lightly.

Nice to meet you!

Luna

[lynsie]

If I may piggy back on this thread, I need some book advice for a friend.
Yesterday, I saw a friend of mine from college. We were roommates about seven years ago. At the time, I was in the process of separating from the church and, coincidently, she was in the process of converting to mormonism. Needless to say, we had many a heated discussion about religion. She is now inactive and will admit that many of the church's present-day doctrines are wrong. However, she clings to the idea that the BOM must be true because "how could one man have written it?" Anyone have a good book I could refer her to regarding the authenticity and divinity of the Book of Mormon? I can't seem to convince her with my compelling arguments. OK, my compelling argument consisted mainly of screaming "IT'S BULLSH*T!!!" loudly and repeatedly (so, I'm no debate club president :duh).

[helemon]

If I may piggy back on this thread, I need some book advice for a friend.
Yesterday, I saw a friend of mine from college. We were roommates about seven years ago. At the time, I was in the process of separating from the church and, coincidently, she was in the process of converting to mormonism. Needless to say, we had many a heated discussion about religion. She is now inactive and will admit that many of the church's present-day doctrines are wrong. However, she clings to the idea that the BOM must be true because "how could one man have written it?" Anyone have a good book I could refer her to regarding the authenticity and divinity of the Book of Mormon? I can't seem to convince her with my compelling arguments. OK, my compelling argument consisted mainly of screaming "IT'S BULLSH*T!!!" loudly and repeatedly (so, I'm no debate club president :duh).
I think Palmer does a fair job of dealing with this issue in his book. Especially the Golden Pot parallels.

Others to look at are:
Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon?: The Spalding Enigma
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0758605277/002-6309482-0448828?v=glance&n=283155

http://solomonspalding.com/index3.htm

http://www.exmormon.org/bofmorig.htm

and
http://www.salamandersociety.com/howobvious/

[lynsie]

Thank you, thank you! I knew I could count on you guys!!:) :) :) :)

[lunaverse]

Point her to Tolkien, Asimov, or any good Fantasy/Sci-Fi author. In fact, there are millions of books, and trilogies, and series out there all written by individuals. Asimov published over 400 books just in his lifetime, and not just sci-fi -- he had at least one book in every Dewey classification.

What makes the BoM so special then?

And does anyone here remember the name of the guy who was a security guard in a temple, and claims to have seen a vision, and received the sealed portion of the plates and is translating them? He has a good portion of them up on his website somewhere. Sounds just like the BoM but it's new material.

Anyhow, last time someone used the "How could just one guy write such a thing?" line on me, I used the sci-fi counter-argument, and it stopped him cold. :) When he countered that J.S. didn't have much education, I pointed out that Abe Lincoln only spent 11 days in school.

Luna

[peter_mary]

When he countered that J.S. didn't have much education, I pointed out that Abe Lincoln only spent 11 days in school.

Luna
On the flip side, I know butt-loads of highly educated people who can't string words together to form a coherent thought, no matter how hard they try. It eludes them.

Education only gets you so far. Genius and inovation are the keys to the literary enigmas, Joseph Smith included. Oh, and it might help if you aren't above a smidge of plagerism... :p

[dogzilla]

On the flip side, I know butt-loads of highly educated people who can't string words together to form a coherent thought, no matter how hard they try. It eludes them.

Education only gets you so far. Genius and inovation are the keys to the literary enigmas, Joseph Smith included. Oh, and it might help if you aren't above a smidge of plagerism... :p

Right-o! My mantra is, "Smart people do stupid shit every single day."