One of Kubler-Ross's elements missing???

[Born Free]

In her pioneering work on Death & Dying, Elizabeth Kubler-Ross theorised that a dying person and even their loved ones can go through a cycle of emotional responses, which I always remember with DABDA:

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

Whilst some of her work has been dis-proven, the model has such utility that it persists still in many contexts which were initially resistant to the Kubler-Rosses model.

Many years ago I came to an appreciation of the transportability of that concept beyond physical death. It has utility in areas like growth, where a particular concept of self needs to die for a bigger self-concept to materialise. I believe that it has a lot of value in the 'death' of a Mormon self-concept, before the emergence of a post-Mormon self.

As I reviewed the DABDA model today against the PostMo MetaMap, I came to the observation that Bargaining was missing in action!!!

Am I wrong or do others agree with me?

Can you look at your journey beyond Mormonism and identify something akin to a Bargaining Phase? In the original model, people typically bargained with God: promising they would:

Always attend Church
Donate money to Church
Offer their life in exchange for the saving of a child

This is an interesting one, as many of us appear to have lost the target of such a bargaining exercise, as we left Mormonism. So, are there other forms of, or targets for bargaining?

Daryl

[noodle]

In her pioneering work on Death & Dying, Elizabeth Kubler-Ross theorised that a dying person and even their loved ones can go through a cycle of emotional responses, which I always remember with DABDA:

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

Whilst some of her work has been dis-proven, the model has such utility that it persists still in many contexts which were initially resistant to the Kubler-Rosses model.

Many years ago I came to an appreciation of the transportability of that concept beyond physical death. It has utility in areas like growth, where a particular concept of self needs to die for a bigger self-concept to materialise. I believe that it has a lot of value in the 'death' of a Mormon self-concept, before the emergence of a post-Mormon self.

As I reviewed the DABDA model today against the PostMo MetaMap, I came to the observation that Bargaining was missing in action!!!

Am I wrong or do others agree with me?

Can you look at your journey beyond Mormonism and identify something akin to a Bargaining Phase? In the original model, people typically bargained with God: promising they would:

Always attend Church
Donate money to Church
Offer their life in exchange for the saving of a child

This is an interesting one, as many of us appear to have lost the target of such a bargaining exercise, as we left Mormonism. So, are there other forms of, or targets for bargaining?

Daryl

Interesting thought, Daryl. I would agree that for me, there was no bargaining step. The depression stage (again, speaking for myself) might be redefined as a sense of isolation (especially living in Zion). Because I am surrounded by active Mo neighbors, I have never entirely lost my sense of wariness, which is probably not entirely healthy. I can't imagine that I will ever get past the sense that they have an ulterior motive to "reactivate" me, which is offensive to me. My ward consists of my closest neighbors, and I essentially left the "family." Thus, there is this lingering sense of isolation that is partially my fault, and partially theirs. Interestingly, I don't feel that way at work where there are some very active Mos who engage in Mo-jive way too much. Maybe because there is a balancing group of NeverMos with whom I also associate.

mamajama

[frauline]

As I think about taking steps to leave the church, I find amusement in different scenarios. Like what if the Bishop offered to refund all of our tithing money for our loyality. Would I take it in return for loyality and keeping the status quo?

I know that would NEVER happen, but it was a fun discussion for my husband and I.

I guess I look at the bargaining in the opposite way. I feel like I am the one the church should be bargaining with, not me bargaining with God.

[helemon]

Interesting thought, Daryl. I would agree that for me, there was no bargaining step.
mamajama

No bargaining here either, but I can see how such bargaining could occur during the traumatic experience phase and if the traumatic event turns out badly could be motivation for leaving the church. In a sense Jeff's experience has some elements of a bargain. He believed, as many of us do, that if we follow the rules and pay our tithing that we will be blessed. Then when he had to deal with his financial problems he felt God wasn't holding up his end of the bargain, which caused him to take a closer look at the history of the church. But I'll let Jeff comment on whether this actually fits what you are looking for.

[lunaverse]

Yes, I ran into bargaining several times:

Years before leaving, after a summer of inactivity (not sure how long after), I was distressed, so prayed heavily in repentance and seeking for my life purpose, etc. I had one of my few church-related spiritual experiences, where I felt comforted and felt that I would find my answers in the Temple. I worked really hard to get ready for the temple, and got my endowments about a year later. I see this whole process as bargaining. Then, in the temple, I felt I would meet the man I should marry within a month. (I had been a single mom for years at that point.) I met someone I thought was the one, and months later found out he had been engaged the whole time. Then I got pissed off, dated someone else for a while in rebound, and after that got REALLY pissed off at God, and started being very sinful for a while. I also see this as a bargaining step. I took off my garments at that point, and I don't think I ever put them back on. I only sort-of reconciled with God after that, until a couple of years later when I left for good.

So during the repetition of the very early stages, I bargained quite a lot. When I had doubts, I bargained to find answers (instead of realizing my doubts might be true). When I went inactive, I bargained to come back. When the promises turned into lies (that I could not blame myself for because I had been a perfect angel during that time!), I bargained by rejecting God (not by disbelieving him, but being angry at him... i.e. You did not keep your bargain, so I will not keep mine!) The reconciliation was only part-way, a tenative mistrusting sort of truce. Again bargaining.

Later, 6 months after crossing the line for good, I experienced bargaining once again. For that 6 months, I was afraid and uncertain about death, which was a new experience for me. I was uncertain about my future. If I died, and it was all true, what would happen to me? That summer then, I had an experience. I imagined Jesus of the Mormon type, being the loving person he is presented as being, telling me that my choices were necessary for my progression. While it was all in my mind's eye, and I didn't even really believe Jesus was the Son of God, this was a way of myself saying, "IF it is true, then THAT Jesus will understand my choices. If it's some other Jesus, then I don't want to be associated with someone like that." This was a bargain as well. i.e. the idea that I would be fine, either way, that I had to make the choices according to my integrity, and any loving God would understand. It was bargaining that lead directly to acceptance of this aspect of no longer being Mormon -- i.e. doubt about the future.

Luna

[elder_nomo]

As I reviewed the DABDA model today against the PostMo MetaMap, I came to the observation that Bargaining was missing in action!!!

Am I wrong or do others agree with me?

Can you look at your journey beyond Mormonism and identify something akin to a Bargaining Phase? In the original model, people typically bargained with God: promising they would:

Always attend Church
Donate money to Church
Offer their life in exchange for the saving of a child

This is an interesting one, as many of us appear to have lost the target of such a bargaining exercise, as we left Mormonism. So, are there other forms of, or targets for bargaining?

Daryl
I spent some time with bargaining type thoughts during the exit process.

My doubts about the church really surfaced while I was on my mission. I kept thinking what a shame it was... that I had been such a *good* member, but was not a very good missionary. It wasn't that I was doing bad things, but I just didn't feel like I was doing a good job. I hated the work. Tracting is pretty torturous when you're introverted and shy around strangers. And I was having doubts and had no time to "work on" them. I was starting to have to lie to bear a testimony.

I was sure that if I could just get past this missionary thing, I could go home and go back to being a good member where this stuff wasn't required. I don't know if I explicitly tried to "bargain" with god, but my thoughts and wishes were to somehow get out of the mission. Then I would go home and be "good" again.

Geez, just writing this makes me shake my head in disbelief. What a total mind-f**k can do to a person.

[Born Free]

I spent some time with bargaining type thoughts during the exit process.

My doubts about the church really surfaced while I was on my mission. I kept thinking what a shame it was... that I had been such a *good* member, but was not a very good missionary. It wasn't that I was doing bad things, but I just didn't feel like I was doing a good job. I hated the work. Tracting is pretty torturous when you're introverted and shy around strangers. And I was having doubts and had no time to "work on" them. I was starting to have to lie to bear a testimony.

I was sure that if I could just get past this missionary thing, I could go home and go back to being a good member where this stuff wasn't required. I don't know if I explicitly tried to "bargain" with god, but my thoughts and wishes were to somehow get out of the mission. Then I would go home and be "good" again.

Geez, just writing this makes me shake my head in disbelief. What a total mind-f**k can do to a person.
elder_nomo and others,

I want to thank you all for wrestling with these issues with me. Your feedback about your personal experience provides more real 'input' for me to refine the MetaMap.

I was just sitting at my desk updating the Map to incorporate the new insights I got as I looked at bargaining. During that process, I realised that the information gathering and experience review that I had in Stage 8, really starts at least with Stage 5 - active unfiltered research.

Bargaining appears to fit much earlier in the cycle, right back where a person goes back to recommit to the Morg and/or at the very least within a theistic mindset, where they are hoping God will provide some new answer to their distress. (Remember that one concept of the original DABDA model was that there was not a specific order for the events.)

It might take a day or so for the new diagram to get up, as I am still leaning on Jeff to get those converted and up.

Thanks once again for the participation guys!

NoMo, you are not alone in looking back with complex emotions at the crap we swallowed. If I spend hundreds of hours on this process and make it easier for just 10 people to escape that MoMind*uck, it will be effort well expended!

Luna, I always relate to your journey, just wishing I did mine earlier and with more savvy, like you. Not sure I would swap pain dosages through! :eek:

Even as I write this other forms of bargaining are coming back in my case. I can recall at about 25 figuring that I should be feeling more than I was, and as I was not, it must have been because I hadn't tried hard enough. I now see that as a form of bargaining.

I am not getting the goodies
(I) Must be doing something wrong
Recommit and reapply (including the standard Fast & Pray)
Same outcome
More guilt and sense of inadequacy
Go around again, and again, and again, until you go mad.

I figured I must have kept falling outside God's Contract Clause (you know 'There is a law irrevocably decreed in Heaven .......... BS, BS, BS!!!!)

Hey I just saw that one must believe in God (or similar) to enter into bargaining. Who else has power over Life & Death, right? No point bargaining with your neighbour, because he has power to do what?????

Daryl

[helemon]

No bargaining here either, but I can see how such bargaining could occur during the traumatic experience phase and if the traumatic event turns out badly could be motivation for leaving the church. In a sense Jeff's experience has some elements of a bargain. He believed, as many of us do, that if we follow the rules and pay our tithing that we will be blessed. Then when he had to deal with his financial problems he felt God wasn't holding up his end of the bargain, which caused him to take a closer look at the history of the church. But I'll let Jeff comment on whether this actually fits what you are looking for.

I should revise this. I recall making some type of bargain about wanting to know the truth whatever it might be. Soon after I found even more information that made me question the church.

[Born Free]

Thanks Jeff, first off.

You will see that all the DABDA elements are there, in bolded text. Also some elements in the Questioning/Uncommitted Phase have been altered to extend the time frame/phase width they cover, as a direct result of input here.

Thanks again all!

Daryl

PS: Did anyone see any other forms of bargaining that were with something/one other than God, in case I have a blind spot?

[helemon]

PS: Did anyone see any other forms of bargaining that were with something/one other than God, in case I have a blind spot?

What about bargaining with TBM parents, spouse, siblings, friends, church leaders, to put the questions on the shelf or stop looking at anti material or to fast, pray, read more scriptures, etc. to try and get back a testimony or save a relationship?

[dogzilla]

That Meta Map is incomprehensible to me. I have two suggestions.

A) Give it to nate or someone with a graphic design background. Someone who is trained to communicate visually. That might help.
B) Take another look at it from the point of view of someone who has no clue what you are trying to convey. Couldn't you simplify it in some way? Maybe eliminate some points or find another way to present them?

All I can see are a bunch of boxes and arrows and I can't make any sense of it. I think it might be very useful and helpful, but right now it's too complicated. I don't know where to start looking at the map, nor what direction to go in, despite the three million little arrows all over it. They seem to point in all directions at once.

As a friend used to say, when I was presenting a complex concept to him, "talk to me like I'm two years old." Then maybe I can follow. Sometimes I think I'm really smart and then I read Daryl's posts and realize... I'm an idiot. :duh

[Jeff_Ricks]

I should revise this. I recall making some type of bargain about wanting to know the truth whatever it might be. Soon after I found even more information that made me question the church.I did a similar bargain when I started having doubts. I did the prayer thing, even in typical Joseph Smith fashion found a quiet place in a wheat field on the hills east of Idaho Falls where I lived at the time. There I prayed fervently and said, show me the truth and I'll follow it...and I meant it! So here I am now, a post-Mormon.

Looking back on the experience and others like it during that time, and on the 'answers' I received in much the same way that Luna describes in this thread, it was my conscious mind bargaining with my subconscious mind trying to come to terms with each other. I think I lived my life in a state of disharmony with my subconscious and didn't consciously know it. Bargaining with my subconscious was my first steps toward finding harmony and I think is why I have felt such peace and contentment since coming to terms with my self. That's my take on it, and my examples of how I bargained during the exit process.

Jeff

[helemon]

That Meta Map is incomprehensible to me. I have two suggestions.

It makes more sense than this:
http://www.ldsces.org/Images/BofM%20Bookmark.jpg

[Born Free]

It makes more sense than this:
http://www.ldsces.org/Images/BofM%20Bookmark.jpg
Hey, Helemon,

Don't knock that map (the Mo one, not mine). I was able to make more sense of BoM story with that map than ever in my life. Any map that can make sense of a pack of lies has got something going for it.

So there is hope yet for me, and my attempts to construct a map for making sense of escaping a pack of lies.

Daryl

[helemon]

Hey, Helemon,

Don't knock that map (the Mo one, not mine). I was able to make more sense of BoM story with that map than ever in my life. Any map that can make sense of a pack of lies has got something going for it.

So there is hope yet for me, and my attempts to construct a map for making sense of escaping a pack of lies.

Daryl

A-ha! I thought I noticed the influence of mormon scripture timelines on your map design!