Missionary work cooling off because world is too rich

[helemon]

Originally posted by slowB on RfM
[Erying] announced that the work in Brazil is slowing down, and basically that misisonary work all over the world is cooling off. He expressed his heartfelt desire that China let us in to do missionary work before they get too rich, and said that Because of all the econimic growth in the world right now, he thinks that people are getting too rich, and that is why missionary work is cooling off.
Yep, its because they have too much money! :duh That must be killing them that the world is getting richer while fewer people are sending money to them!

It couldn't be that the world is becoming more connected and so more people are able to see through the lies of the church?

[Jeff_Ricks]

"He expressed his heartfelt desire that China let us in to do missionary work before they get too rich..."

Poor means uneducated, which means a good candidate for buying into the nutty Mormon myth. Gotta get 'em before they get too smart! :rolleyes:

Jeff

[Born Free]

Originally posted by slowB on RfM

Yep, its because they have too much money! :duh That must be killing them that the world is getting richer while fewer people are sending money to them!

It couldn't be that the world is becoming more connected and so more people are able to see through the lies of the church?
Helemon,

So Erying subscribes to the Rich Man/Heaven-Camel/Eye-of-the-Needle model of missionary work.

Yes, that is a very interesting model!

Personally, I prefer the 'Humans prefer to stay away from mountains of s#it, when they can identify same' theory, myself. :duh :eek: :slap:

Daryl

[Born Free]

Poor means uneducated, which means a good candidate for buying into the nutty Mormon myth. Gotta get 'em before they get too smart! :rolleyes:

Jeff
Poor AND marginalised is an even better formula. That primes them for the MoMessage:

Not only are you not 2nd class,
If you follow our recipe of secret herb and spices, sorry wrong script, God's One and Only True Path to Heaven,
Then you will be in the inner sanctum, surrounded by wealth, power and luxury,
And those pompous bastards will get their come-uppance, and some!

(I want to apologise in advance to any who have heard this story before) I knew an associate professor years ago, who in a former incarnation had been a missionary in Africa. Late one night there was a knock at the door of an English PhD student who had just arrived in the locale doing field research for his thesis, looking for a bed for the night, until he could find local digs.

The guts of this guys thesis was that you could predict the religion that a person would be attracted to by their status in society and geographical location. The guy then went ahead, after the then priest described the wealth, industry and local geography and settlements, to very accurately predict which religions prevailed and where.

I hold to the theory that Moism (and ,amd fundamentalist religions) have a very inferior/superiour undercurrent. To fail to recognise that is to miss a key element.

Daryl

[helemon]

Helemon,

So Erying subscribes to the Rich Man/Heaven-Camel/Eye-of-the-Needle model of missionary work.

Yes, that is a very interesting model!


They took it right from the BoM. The classic pride cycle. I am sure that positioning the churches dropping membership in such a familiar form is very comforting to members. I wouldn't be suprised if we hear something like that at Fall Conference. Perhaps Erying will give the speech espousing just such a reason for the rapid drop in membership. Guess they realize that they can't paint all of us with the "just wanted to sin" brush, so they need to make it look like we are too consumed by greed and didn't want to keep paying that 10% to the church.

[Born Free]

They took it right from the BoM. The classic pride cycle. I am sure that positioning the churches dropping membership in such a familiar form is very comforting to members. I wouldn't be suprised if we hear something like that at Fall Conference. Perhaps Erying will give the speech espousing just such a reason for the rapid drop in membership. Guess they realize that they can't paint all of us with the "just wanted to sin" brush, so they need to make it look like we are too consumed by greed and didn't want to keep paying that 10% to the church.
It is such a masterful strategy, provided you have no conscience.

Goes like this:

Utard has the highest rate of bankruptcy in the USA, so poverty is an issue.
Those who are poor very likely aspire to be affluent*
So what better strategy than pitching a talk to members, at what they aspire to, but wrap it up in moral superiority, by saying those that have wealth and are non-members, are really evil.
Members are encouraged to deny what is in themselves and project it out onto the 'gentiles' and find some sort of moral comfort in their self-denied envy.

* I have to tell you about the desire to be affluent. We have a great pair of comediennes here (Oz) who really play with language and working and lower-middle class aspirations. Their stage names are Kath & Kim.

So Kimmy aspires to be affluent, but their grasp of language leaves a little to be desired, so it comes out as 'effluent'. So Kath (the mother) in trying to reassure Kim, saying 'But, Kimmy, you are effluent, you really are effluent!'

So, 'Brother and Sister, not only are you not inferior to these gentiles who have lost their way, and become immune to the Laaard's call because of their wealth; but when Christ comes and reigns, it is they who will live eternally with the gnashing of teeth and wailing, you, the humble Saints who will live eternally in effluent!"

Daryl

[Born Free]

Originally posted by slowB on RfM

Yep, its because they have too much money! :duh That must be killing them that the world is getting richer while fewer people are sending money to them!

It couldn't be that the world is becoming more connected and so more people are able to see through the lies of the church?
What explains their spectacular lack of success in Russia, particularly when compared with the Adventists?

It is so tragic ;) that they can't consider the real possibilities about why they are experiencing flatlined growth. Hopefully they will keep repeating these feeble excuses until the growth turns negative, and they eventually disappear.

I would be much more excitable about Mormonism as a history subject.

Daryl

[helemon]

What explains their spectacular lack of success in Russia, particularly when compared with the Adventists?


I can't help but wonder if America's image in the world is also having a negative impact on a quintesentially American religion? The Adventists while also starting in upstate New York around the same time as Mormonism they don't have new scriptures proclaiming America as the promised land or where Eden was originally located and where New Jerusalem will be built and from where Christ will rule during the Millenium.

[Born Free]

I can't help but wonder if America's image in the world is also having a negative impact on a quintesentially American religion? The Adventists while also starting in upstate New York around the same time as Mormonism they don't have new scriptures proclaiming America as the promised land or where Eden was originally located and where New Jerusalem will be built and from where Christ will rule during the Millenium.
Helemon,

I tend to agree with you.

Starting with Joseph Smith, Mormonism has developed itself with a mindset like the ultimate egocentric teenager, who leapts right over nationalism, to make themselves, not just their nation, the focus of all God's activity.

The start with pulling a coup on the Jews, by claiming that a group of Jews that left the middle east settled what is now the US (or some limited part of it, depending upon which book they are reinventing themselves in reaction to).

By extension, the USofA or a part there of, is going to be the New Jerusalem, and this (Mormon) people who claim they are more in touch with Gods 'real intent' through their various 'special books of revelation' and Restored Truth, are in reality more Chosen than God's chosen people, the Jews. So while mainstream Christianity saw Christ creating a more universal mindset and Paul as taking it to the gentiles, Mormons start reversing that expansive process.

And they rewrite American folklore to suite themselves. They sat on the fence during the civil war, looking after numero uno, have a history of racism, but now claim they are race-progressives.

Their leader tried to start a communal economy, but they now claim they are uba-anti-communist, pro capitalists (and pro MLMs).

Their religion early manifested sexuality run rampant attempting to stop the word leaking out by flogging the Mason's oaths and threats, but they now claim to have sexual virtue cornered, whilst retaining a laundered version of Masonic ritual (after market research revealed the baby-boomers weren't too fussed).

The only thing they could do more to position themselves as ultra Yankee conservatives would be to start letting Coca Cola sponsor General Conference, run ads for same in the Ensign, sponsor temple baptisms and put Coke vending machines into chapel foyers.

So, you are right. It is very possible that MoIncs ultra American stance may be damaging them relative to other American religions. In fact that would be some interesting 'marketing research' to read.

It just struck me that their close alignment with the Republicans and Junior Bush, in particular, has got to be hurting. Many Americans are out of touch with how badly Bush is perceived in most the world outside north America, and the MoInc leadership are probably caught in that trap, given they are so much better at transmiiting than listening.

That side of US politics is seen as using foreign policy for the most extreme of self-serving behaviour. And the Church is tarred with the same brush. Those that get promoted tend to be very cosy and comfortable with the SLC-centric mindset that is so offensive to the brighter brains in foreign lands.

Once again, I see that as reason to celebrate. Their 'culture' is out of step with that in the outside world, so their growth is arguably more likely to be negative. What a tragedy.

Daryl

[lunaverse]

The guts of this guys thesis was that you could predict the religion that a person would be attracted to by their status in society and geographical location. The guy then went ahead, after the then priest described the wealth, industry and local geography and settlements, to very accurately predict which religions prevailed and where.


Do you happen to have a copy of this? I have this housemate who is majoring in social psychology, and this is RIGHT up her alley about things she's been babbling about lately. :)

Luna

[Born Free]

Do you happen to have a copy of this? I have this housemate who is majoring in social psychology, and this is RIGHT up her alley about things she's been babbling about lately. :)

Luna
Luna,
Sadly, I can't assist. This guy was a professor or associate at University of Western Sydney last time I saw him and now approaching 60 I would guess, and I think this incident occurred in his 20s before he left Catholicism and went into academia, so likely in the 60s.

Daryl

[runfromsafety]

I can't help but wonder if America's image in the world is also having a negative impact on a quintesentially American religion?
I also think you are spot on here. Speaking as one from another country, years ago America was seen as the progressive leader in world morals, the "good guy" in the cold war and the allay of every democracy in the world.

I find americans individually a very warm and friendly people, but collectively, as you have pointed out, the country is viewed very differently in the world today. The Church's appeal as being, by association, connected with the best the world has to offer in moral values and world leadership is well and truly tarnished.

The Church has enough problems of their own with the truth about their history and doctrine increasingly there for all to see without it being added to by the countiries international image.

Please dont confuse my comments about the countries international image with my views on americans as people individually, but I think that like most americans, the Church itself is largely underestimating the negative perception of the countries politics and self proclaimed status as worlds policemen and moral leaders on it's own approach of proclaiming themselves as having the same role in the religious world.

[puff]

I also think you are spot on here. Speaking as one from another country, years ago America was seen as the progressive leader in world morals, the "good guy" in the cold war and the allay of every democracy in the world.

I find americans individually a very warm and friendly people, but collectively, as you have pointed out, the country is viewed very differently in the world today. The Church's appeal as being, by association, connected with the best the world has to offer in moral values and world leadership is well and truly tarnished.

The Church has enough problems of their own with the truth about their history and doctrine increasingly there for all to see without it being added to by the countiries international image.

Please dont confuse my comments about the countries international image with my views on americans as people individually, but I think that like most americans, the Church itself is largely underestimating the negative perception of the countries politics and self proclaimed status as worlds policemen and moral leaders on it's own approach of proclaiming themselves as having the same role in the religious world.I think the reason tscc is failing is because its just become so ****ing boring ,America itself hasn,t changed much , if they brought back plural marridge it would probably start growing again

[peter_mary]

I also think you are spot on here. Speaking as one from another country, years ago America was seen as the progressive leader in world morals, the "good guy" in the cold war and the allay of every democracy in the world.

I find americans individually a very warm and friendly people, but collectively, as you have pointed out, the country is viewed very differently in the world today. The Church's appeal as being, by association, connected with the best the world has to offer in moral values and world leadership is well and truly tarnished.

The Church has enough problems of their own with the truth about their history and doctrine increasingly there for all to see without it being added to by the countiries international image.

Please dont confuse my comments about the countries international image with my views on americans as people individually, but I think that like most americans, the Church itself is largely underestimating the negative perception of the countries politics and self proclaimed status as worlds policemen and moral leaders on it's own approach of proclaiming themselves as having the same role in the religious world.
Wow...I hadn't really thought about this before, and I missed Helemon's comment initially along these lines, but that's a VERY interesting and sobering thought. That the image of the quintessential American Church is suffering because of the same image damage that America itself is suffering.

Wow.

That's pretty heady stuff.

This is part of the reason why I love hanging out here. It keeps me in touch with the rest of the world, and daily reminds me that the world does not cease to exist beyond the borders of my country. I only wish ALL my fellows could rub cyber-shoulders regularly with folks from around the world that help keep us aware of the greater geopolitics of our government's actions...

Thanks to all my world-wide PostMo friends. :)

[helemon]

Wow...I hadn't really thought about this before, and I missed Helemon's comment initially along these lines, but that's a VERY interesting and sobering thought. That the image of the quintessential American Church is suffering because of the same image damage that America itself is suffering.

Wow.

That's pretty heady stuff.


Or it could be that the church uses ignorant (compared to the missionaries and representatives of other religions) kids to try and win converts to their church. :duh Like the old saying goes, ya gets whach ya paid fer. :D