Other comparable religions?

[wileycoyote]

One of my biggest obstacles when talking to my family is that they just can't believe that a church this big and grand could have started as a cult or " if it's this big, how could it be wrong?" type stuff. Weren't there other men who said they fullfilled biblical prophecies and started churches? Thanks

[peter_mary]

One of my biggest obstacles when talking to my family is that they just can't believe that a church this big and grand could have started as a cult or " if it's this big, how could it be wrong?" type stuff. Weren't there other men who said they fullfilled biblical prophecies and started churches? Thanks

The Apostle Paul springs to mind (though I'm guessing your family wouldn't really see the connection there...). Every denomination of any size today was begun by someone who was a religious inovator in their own right. Some have been highly successful, others less so, but they all start out the same.

One of the most remarkable parallels to Joseph Smith, in my opinion, is Muhammed and Islam. Reading his story is so remarkably like Joseph's that it causes you to wonder if there isn't an archtype there or something. And though Muhammed himself wasn't martyred, Islam is littered with martyrs, and the emotional power of those martyrs is indeed noteworthy (we get more and more of them every day, unfortunately... :( ).

Another remarkable parallel is the Bahai's and the guy (whose name escapes me) who started that religion. Again, the story is the same as Joseph and Muhammed.

Anyway, Jehovah's Witnesses, 7th Day Adventists, Gideons, Bahai's, Muslims, Mormons, and for that matter, Lutherans, Calvinists, Methodists...all of them started with a leader who had a different vision from the mainstream, who believed that the "true" message from God had been corrupted and needed to be corrected, and launched a new Church. But like Jesus said, Many are called, few are chosen. What I mean by that is, millions of Churches have been formed, but only a few have the right combination of initial talent, correct circumstances, right timing and raw, dumb luck to ensure future longevity. Just like with businesses...many start up, but only a few of those will be around ten years from now. The one-two punch of Joseph's charisma and Brigham's dictatorial and raw, practical leadership, coupled with the availability of a place no one else wanted resulted in the success of Mormonism. Remove any one of those, and we wouldn't be dinking around on this bulletin board today. (Which you can argue was "divine intervention," but then you have grant the same intervention to every other situation.)

When using the argument of "it must be true, because look how it's grown!" I love to counter with, "So Islam must be even truer than Mormonism, because they have a billion of those guys..." Catholicism must also be true, because "how could it be this big, grand AND OLD if it weren't true?" Judaism even MORE TRUE, because look how friggin' long THAT'S been around! And how many Hindus are there...a billion or more, I assume, and it's been around a helluva lot longer than Mormonism. Gotta be true...

The logic just doesn't hold up, but it makes Mormons feel secure. "The sheep always feel safest when they're clumped together...making them easy prey."

Paul

[peter_mary]

One of my biggest obstacles when talking to my family is that they just can't believe that a church this big and grand could have started as a cult or " if it's this big, how could it be wrong?" type stuff. Weren't there other men who said they fullfilled biblical prophecies and started churches? Thanks

I would encourage anyone and everyone to read the book, "Cults in our Midst" by Margaret Thaler Singer. Wes, you may have already read it, or know of better ones, but anyway, this book is NOT about Mormonism, in fact, I don't think it even gets a mention...but MAN OH MAN, when you read it, it leaves NO doubt in your mind that the early Church was ABSOLUTELY a classic, "charismatic-leader driven cult" and that the Church today, though not as far along the continuum, is still WELL along the continuum in the direction of cult. It is, frankly, undeniable. And I think you'd be hard pressed to convince me that ALL religion didn't start out in the exact same way. Good book.

Paul

[Born Free]

One of my biggest obstacles when talking to my family is that they just can't believe that a church this big and grand could have started as a cult or " if it's this big, how could it be wrong?" type stuff. Weren't there other men who said they fullfilled biblical prophecies and started churches? Thanks

I stumbled into close dealings with several ex Seventh Day Adventists after departing Moism.

Boy, was that a revelation, as I started to discover how much those religions have in common. One of teh guys pointed me at the book Shopping for God In America - written by an Englishman who, interestingly in light of Pauls comments re Islam and Joe Smith, had done a similar book on Islam.

It made it very clear how much American religions of that period are largely sociological creations. Msot shared the societal emphasis upon: sexuality (world travel had exploded and with it the spread of venereal disease), education, material success, the Americas as the New Jersulaem etc.

The narcissistic opinion you claim your folks hold, is typical IMHO, of people who have not read or studied other religions and some sociology very widely.

The Big Must be Beautiful belief is very shallow. Would they give me the time of day if I employed the same argument to espouse the virtue of drug-taking, pornography, fundamental Islam or Christiantiy, all of which enjoy spectacular growth?

Daryl

[noodle]

The number of new religions that had their start in the 1800s is interesting. Don't forget the Oneida Community. Many of us use Oneida flatware or other Oneida products. Check out how it was started, and take a look at its sexual stuff - really interesting.

http://www.nyhistory.com/central/oneida.htm

[Free-soil]

One of my biggest obstacles when talking to my family is that they just can't believe that a church this big and grand could have started as a cult or " if it's this big, how could it be wrong?" type stuff. Weren't there other men who said they fullfilled biblical prophecies and started churches? Thanks

I recently studied Jim Jones and the people's temple in a Theories of Persuasion class. While mormons aren't drinking sionide laced kool-aid, I'm certain some would if asked. Jim Jones' reign as church leaders was short lived. However, if you look closely you can see striking similarities between the people's temple and the LDS church. A lot of the similarities I noticed were in people's behavior and more importantly, their mindset. There is a danger when a group of people, no matter the size, take the words of one man as the inerrant word of God. People did it with Jim Jones and they do it with Gordy B. This theme is present all over this board, but I am amazed how people stop thinking, it is like they turn their brains off. :eek:

[peter_mary]

However, if you look closely you can see striking similarities between the people's temple and the LDS church.

Shortly after the deadly conclusion of David Koresh's community in Waco, Texas, my TBM in laws were reporting to us a documentary on Koresh. My Father in law, who I love, sat in the kitchen and told us the following (paraphrased, obviously).

"Can you believe this guy? He told people that he had regular visitations from Christ and that he was specially chosen to lead them into the millenium. Then he packs them all up and moves them away from their families, makes them give everything to his church, and he makes the decisions about who sleeps with who, taking the ones he wants for himself! Why in the world would anyone follow a nut like that?!"

Yes, my friends, he said that in ALL earnestness. He simply could not see that he was rehearsing the Mormon story in 3 or 4 short sentences. The only difference was that Nauvoo went up in flames AFTER the Mormons departed...

Paul

[miss taken]

The more I read about this man (and the Branch Davidians) the more I could see parallels with the LDS church.

The problem is, is that the early christian church also demanded absolute obedience. Jesus's doctrine on the subject seems to indicate that, I can't remember the exact words, but words to the effect of, if you love parents etc more than me you are not worthy of me.
He seems to imply that religious loyalty comes before any other loyalties including those to family or state.

I can also recall a story about a couple in the Apostolic period not telling Paul? about all their goods, and they were struck down dead.

Abraham sacrificing his son, is pretty wierd stuff if you take the religious element out of it, I would have him locked up for child abuse.

So, as I see it, the problem is, and JS saw it to obviously, is that the Bible, if used literally, is a calling card, to do just about anything you like, and use God's name to justify it.