What do you say when TBM's ask about....

[frauline]

Ok, so my TBM mother now knows and in between sobs, she manages to ask about how I can deny all of my former spiritual experiences and miracles I have seen.

So why did I have those experiences, or at least view reality as if miracles were happening? Now I understand that it was getting outcomes I would justify by any means as being from God. But what do you say?

[Jeff_Ricks]

Ok, so my TBM mother now knows and in between sobs, she manages to ask about how I can deny all of my former spiritual experiences and miracles I have seen.

So why did I have those experiences, or at least view reality as if miracles were happening? Now I understand that it was getting outcomes I would justify by any means as being from God. But what do you say?"...it was getting outcomes I would justify by any means as being from God. " I think something like what you stated is a pretty good answer. I think if they're willing to examine with you some of those experiences they'd see that there are other non-miraculous explanations for them. You and I both know that they’ll probably be reluctant to accept those other explanations, but at least they’d be exposed to other possible causes.

Jeff

[dogzilla]

Nobody has ever asked me anything like that but I would say that I've learned through experience that cause-and-effect are not always so inexplicable. Sometimes, you want so badly to think that x was the cause of y, but with a little time, distance, and perspective, (and open-mindedness) you soon realize that m, n, or p could have all caused y and that whole god/prayer thing had nothing to do with anything.

I dated this engineer once who challenged me to come up with a situation that couldn't be explained with science. I couldn't come up with a thing. :duh

Example of what I mean: In high school, I was dating this nevermo. Nice fella. He's actually the guy who taught me how I should I expect to be treated by men (respect, trust, communication, etc.). Anyway, he asked me to go steady and, at that time, the YM/YW were constantly being counseled to not go steady (lest we fall in love, f**k, or worse, get married before he goes on a mission) and some of the parents in our ward would let their kids only date anyone no more than three times in a row. I dated the bishop's son a couple years later and we'd go on our three dates, then double with another couple on the fourth date. He'd pretend to be going out with the other girl, and I'd pretend to be going out with the other boy, and when we got to the dance or the football game or whatever, we'd swap. (Man, that's hilarious, now that I'm reading this 20 years later.)

Anyway, I accepted so I was going steady with a nevermo and, as usual, breaking all the rules. (I still ignore rules that make no sense to me.) So I had this boy's class ring with a bunch of yarn wrapped around the back 'cause he had these huge hands. One day, I lost the damn ring. (I have widdle, teeny, tiny hands.) Being a good little tithing-paying TBM, I prayed and prayed to get that ring back. I promised god that if I recovered the ring, I'd give it back to the boy. (Note: I did NOT promise to break up with him, only to give back the evidence of the going steady. ;) ) Like, an hour later, the principal called me into his office and put the ring on his desk. I gave it back to the boy with an explanation, and we continued dating for a year or so after that, but wore our own class rings, realizing that the symbol wasn't nearly as important as the relationship. No big whoop. (Told ya he was a good guy.) Now, this boy went to a different school than I, so it wasn't like the principal knew both of us.

So I thought god was the cause of the ring recovery (my precioussss). Years later, I realized that the teachers and principals weren't so clueless and stupid as I'd assumed and whenever someone turned in the ring, it was probably not too difficult to figure out which girl was dating a boy from Y school. He probably only had to ask around a little, if he didn't already know, and tracked me down pretty quickly. I bet high school principals have to perform that sort of detective work just about every day. So it wasn't that my prayers were answered, but more like only so many girls in my school were dating boys from his school, and we'd probably been spotted together more than once at various and sundry high school functions, seeing as how he played in the pep band for his school and we attended everything. X wasn't the cause of Y, it was more like N was the cause of Y.

[helemon]

X wasn't the cause of Y, it was more like N was the cause of Y.

Did the ring have his name engraved on it? If so the principal could have called the school talked to the student who then said you were the current owner. Or he happened to notice the yarn and had noticed you wearing a ring with yarn. Probably not a lot of girls would do that. Most would probably put is on a chain. ;)

[Born Free]

Ok, so my TBM mother now knows and in between sobs, she manages to ask about how I can deny all of my former spiritual experiences and miracles I have seen.

So why did I have those experiences, or at least view reality as if miracles were happening? Now I understand that it was getting outcomes I would justify by any means as being from God. But what do you say?

Try - 'You mean the desired outcomes that happened to coincide with prayer and which you therefore remembered as 'miracles', in contrast with the ones that went answerless (because God was watching the football), and which you conveniently forgot because they didn't fit the theory? Biased sample!'

Psych 1.01, but then most TBMs aren't interested.

The fact is, we see what we want to see, unless we have sighted that as a risk in human thinking. Take this excellent example that just arrived from my son-in-law:

3. Looking for a pen? Look no further than Pen Island at
http://www.penisland.net/

The problem is so gobsmackingly obvious, but if your head space is filled with 'pen', you can't see the potential for a massive fallacy (joke)!

Daryl

[skeptic]

Ok, so my TBM mother now knows and in between sobs, she manages to ask about how I can deny all of my former spiritual experiences and miracles I have seen.

So why did I have those experiences, or at least view reality as if miracles were happening? Now I understand that it was getting outcomes I would justify by any means as being from God. But what do you say?

__________________________________________________ __

I ask how are we to distinguish from true a spiritual witness/experience and an emotional or psychological appeal.

SoUtSkeptic

[dogzilla]

Did the ring have his name engraved on it? If so the principal could have called the school talked to the student who then said you were the current owner. Or he happened to notice the yarn and had noticed you wearing a ring with yarn. Probably not a lot of girls would do that. Most would probably put is on a chain. ;)

I think his initials might have been engraved in it, but I don't think his entire name. (He would have told me if my principal had spoken to him.) And I didn't have a chain. I don't think. Seems like that was the thing to do: wrap yarn around the back, smother it all with clear nail polish and wear this big honkin' ring.

I don't know why I didn't just demand a cute dainty little diamond, but teenage girls have their priorities all out of whack. ;)