The perfect Mormon woman: I am SO ANGRY!

[lsands]

There is an obituary for Dantzel White Nelson, wife of apostle Russel M. Nelson, in today's SL Trib that has really set me off! :eek: I don't want to be judgemental of her or the decisions she made any more than I want to judge anyone else. It is the message contained in the article that has triggered old memories and feelings. A few excerpts from the article:

"Nelson died suddenly but peacefully...while holding hands with Russell Nelson, her husband of almost 60 years. [She was 79.]...Though married to a heart surgeon and LDS apostle...she developed no airs, no pretenses, no judgments, no boundaries....Dantzel had been accepted to the Julliard School of Music in New York, but marriage changed all that....And the babies kept coming. Nine of them. All girls. But Nelson always knew she would have a boy....Russell M. Nelson Jr. was born on March 21, 1972. In...30 plus years [her neighbor] said she has never seen Dantzel Nelson get angry. Nor complain, even after a five-year bout of cancer and ongoing heart trouble. Nelson went quietly about mothering 10 children, 56 grandchildren, and 14 great-grandchildren....Given the number of her posterity, Hinckley said, "Dantzel will become a legend to the generations that follow." :Puking
I don't wish to detract from all that this amazing woman did for others, but what does it tell Mormon women about what they are valued for?:
---Marrying young
---Giving up opportunities to develop talents for husband and family
---Having 10 :eek: children, and continuing to bear children until you get a son
---Having NO BOUNDARIES
---Never getting angry or complaining
---The NUMBER of your posterity

I'll probably post more about my thoughts and feelings about this later, but I'm too angry right now. Your comments?

[noodle]

There is an obituary for Dantzel White Nelson, wife of apostle Russel M. Nelson, in today's SL Trib that has really set me off! :eek: I don't want to be judgemental of her or the decisions she made any more than I want to judge anyone else. It is the message contained in the article that has triggered old memories and feelings. A few excerpts from the article:

"Nelson died suddenly but peacefully...while holding hands with Russell Nelson, her husband of almost 60 years. [She was 79.]...Though married to a heart surgeon and LDS apostle...she developed no airs, no pretenses, no judgments, no boundaries....Dantzel had been accepted to the Julliard School of Music in New York, but marriage changed all that....And the babies kept coming. Nine of them. All girls. But Nelson always knew she would have a boy....Russell M. Nelson Jr. was born on March 21, 1972. In...30 plus years [her neighbor] said she has never seen Dantzel Nelson get angry. Nor complain, even after a five-year bout of cancer and ongoing heart trouble. Nelson went quietly about mothering 10 children, 56 grandchildren, and 14 great-grandchildren....Given the number of her posterity, Hinckley said, "Dantzel will become a legend to the generations that follow." :Puking
I don't wish to detract from all that this amazing woman did for others, but what does it tell Mormon women about what they are valued for?:
---Marrying young
---Giving up opportunities to develop talents for husband and family
---Having 10 :eek: children, and continuing to bear children until you get a son
---Having NO BOUNDARIES
---Never getting angry or complaining
---The NUMBER of your posterity

I'll probably post more about my thoughts and feelings about this later, but I'm too angry right now. Your comments?

I couldn't agree with you more. Honestly, I am truly speechless. I am having the same gut reaction as you.

mamajama

[miss taken]

My opinion on this has to do with a personal experience.
I went on a mission, and then I became a school teacher. I got told that I had disappointed the Stake Pres and Councillors because I should be getting married, bring up my kids, and then think about a career.

The very perceptive Stake RS president, told me not to take any notice of the Stake Presidency, that they were wrong, and I should go ahead and train to be a teacher, which I did, thank God (Literally, thank God). Because it is one of the most fulfilling careers I could have wished for, and I loved and still love every minute of it.

So here I was a successful teacher, 30 and still single, and I got told that unless I got married I would not be able to achieve the highest degrees of the celestial kingdom.

Well, I might as well be a nun, I thought, cause I didn't find anyone that I loved enough to marry, and I wasn't going to marry someone I didn't love just to get a ticket to the highest degree of the celestial kingdom.

So I am not surprised at the orbituary because it is an indication of Mormon Values. It just confirms to me that I don't share many of them.

[stuckasamo]

There is an obituary for Dantzel White Nelson, wife of apostle Russel M. Nelson, in today's SL Trib that has really set me off! :eek: I don't want to be judgemental of her or the decisions she made any more than I want to judge anyone else. It is the message contained in the article that has triggered old memories and feelings. A few excerpts from the article:

"Nelson died suddenly but peacefully...while holding hands with Russell Nelson, her husband of almost 60 years. [She was 79.]...Though married to a heart surgeon and LDS apostle...she developed no airs, no pretenses, no judgments, no boundaries....Dantzel had been accepted to the Julliard School of Music in New York, but marriage changed all that....And the babies kept coming. Nine of them. All girls. But Nelson always knew she would have a boy....Russell M. Nelson Jr. was born on March 21, 1972. In...30 plus years [her neighbor] said she has never seen Dantzel Nelson get angry. Nor complain, even after a five-year bout of cancer and ongoing heart trouble. Nelson went quietly about mothering 10 children, 56 grandchildren, and 14 great-grandchildren....Given the number of her posterity, Hinckley said, "Dantzel will become a legend to the generations that follow." :Puking
I don't wish to detract from all that this amazing woman did for others, but what does it tell Mormon women about what they are valued for?:
---Marrying young
---Giving up opportunities to develop talents for husband and family
---Having 10 :eek: children, and continuing to bear children until you get a son
---Having NO BOUNDARIES
---Never getting angry or complaining
---The NUMBER of your posterity

I'll probably post more about my thoughts and feelings about this later, but I'm too angry right now. Your comments?

What Hinckley says:
"Dantzel will become a legend to the generations that follow."

What Hinckley means:
"Young women in the church, if you even think about having a career or waiting to have children, you will never be remembered by your posterity, because you will not have done what God wanted you to do: namely, make as many babies as possible and cater to your husband's every whim. The world would have you believe that you should be extended the same privileges as the men, but this is not your godly purpose. Think about that, and may the Holy Ghost guide you to make the righteous decision. You need to just be quiet and put your mind to changing diapers. Because I sure as hell don't want you all to come to the realization that you're being treated as second-class citizens."

She KEPT HAVING KIDS because they were all girls and that wasn't GOOD enough? Can anyone say "pressure from the husband" on this one? Hey, it's the man's sperm that decides the sex of the baby, so Russell can just SHUT UP!

I'm just as disgusted as you, Isands. :Puking

[lsands]

I've learned by now to stop and look at why I get triggered by things. After all, this is just an obituary about a woman who died recently! But here is the idea that underlies it that I think I'm reacting to:

Women are supposed to be self-less---having NO SELF. Our only value comes from serving others. We are not entitled to be human beings with feelings or needs, nor are we to spend time or energy on developing our talents. We are not to BE. This message is given to LDS girls and women from birth both overtly and covertly.

So I think this is why I felt so angry over a simple article---I felt it as a reminder of the threat these ideas posed to my existence as a unique human being.

[free thinker]

This might surprise you coming from a man.

I am still single after being home from a mission for 25 years. I never bought the whole marriage and makin babies thing. Believe me, men get a tremendous amount of pressure to marry that perfect little mormon lass, and get the family thing going. After all, that's why were all here right? No way! Not for me! Never wanted a family, and as you can imagine, that made me the odd man out.

I applaud you all for realizing the farce of this. I have met many mormon women who on the outside were so kind and sweet, but inside they were mad as hell. I would never accept the second class citizenship of mormon women, if I was a woman. What a condescending crock of crap!

My girlfriend is a nurse, and quite good at what she does. Like you, she would never let anyone treat her second class in any way. :cool:

Free Thinker

[Born Free]

There is an obituary for Dantzel White Nelson, wife of apostle Russel M. Nelson, in today's SL Trib that has really set me off! :eek: I don't want to be judgemental of her or the decisions she made any more than I want to judge anyone else. It is the message contained in the article that has triggered old memories and feelings. A few excerpts from the article:

"Nelson died suddenly but peacefully...while holding hands with Russell Nelson, her husband of almost 60 years. [She was 79.]...Though married to a heart surgeon and LDS apostle...she developed no airs, no pretenses, no judgments, no boundaries....Dantzel had been accepted to the Julliard School of Music in New York, but marriage changed all that....And the babies kept coming. Nine of them. All girls. But Nelson always knew she would have a boy....Russell M. Nelson Jr. was born on March 21, 1972. In...30 plus years [her neighbor] said she has never seen Dantzel Nelson get angry. Nor complain, even after a five-year bout of cancer and ongoing heart trouble. Nelson went quietly about mothering 10 children, 56 grandchildren, and 14 great-grandchildren....Given the number of her posterity, Hinckley said, "Dantzel will become a legend to the generations that follow." :Puking
I don't wish to detract from all that this amazing woman did for others, but what does it tell Mormon women about what they are valued for?:
---Marrying young
---Giving up opportunities to develop talents for husband and family
---Having 10 :eek: children, and continuing to bear children until you get a son
---Having NO BOUNDARIES
---Never getting angry or complaining
---The NUMBER of your posterity

I'll probably post more about my thoughts and feelings about this later, but I'm too angry right now. Your comments?

lsands,

I can well understand how this portrayal of "virtuous womanhood" produces such a profound response among you and many of the other women on this list.

I see it as so selfless, that there is no self left! You cannot be boundariless without de-selfing, wihout being totally unsure where you stop and the other starts. And by my understanding that process is not only damaging to the person; it is a two way process. The woman who is devoid of boundaries with respect to demands made of her, will almost certainly be unaware of when she is stomping across others boundaries. This 2nd half is the great unmentionable in many of these simplistic, "virtuous" stories.

If a woman like this has no life in her own regard, then it follows that her life only has value to the extent that the significant others in her life, live their lives according to her script, so there is little room for anyone to be themselves. They all then start to perform according to the implicitly agreed script as to roles and performance. Logically and from my personal experience, the woman in that position then starts to become the Martyr. She says in effect, I gave up my life for you! So you owe me BIG TIME.

Very tacky. As for the implicit superiour value of males, it is SO Old Testament.

I really empathisise with the anger you all feel.

Daryl

[peter_mary]

At our house, the treatment of women in the Church is one of the trigger issues. This obituary says SO much between the lines, which you picked up on exactly Laraine.

One of my all-time favorite Hinckley quotes was one in which he is being questioned by a media person (I wish I could remember who...maybe Larry King? Not sure...anyway)... The question regarding women holding the priesthood and not being able to hold leadership callings came up, and Hinckley's "brush-off" response was, and I quote, "We love our women."

That said it all for me. In that one, patronizing little statement, he summed it all up. "We," being the general body of the Church, is led by men. So that is a very, very masculine "WE."

"Our" is unmistakably possesive. We own them, we work them, and we like them well enough as long as they do what we say.

WE love OUR women. This is why I had to rescue my daughters from the Church. I associate with women of personal power, and am so glad my world is filled with them. Little bores me as much as people who have no "self."

Thanks for sharing this Laraine.

Paul

[gracie]

At our house, the treatment of women in the Church is one of the trigger issues. This obituary says SO much between the lines, which you picked up on exactly Laraine.

One of my all-time favorite Hinckley quotes was one in which he is being questioned by a media person (I wish I could remember who...maybe Larry King? Not sure...anyway)... The question regarding women holding the priesthood and not being able to hold leadership callings came up, and Hinckley's "brush-off" response was, and I quote, "We love our women."

That said it all for me. In that one, patronizing little statement, he summed it all up. "We," being the general body of the Church, is led by men. So that is a very, very masculine "WE."

"Our" is unmistakably possesive. We own them, we work them, and we like them well enough as long as they do what we say.

WE love OUR women. This is why I had to rescue my daughters from the Church. I associate with women of personal power, and am so glad my world is filled with them. Little bores me as much as people who have no "self."

Thanks for sharing this Laraine.

Paul

I remember watching this interview on television; it was back in my true believing days. I was very idealistic and looked forward to watching the show, I knew my friends would be asking about the church following the broadcast and wanting to be baptized in droves! :Crazy:
When Hinckley said "we love our women" I was so stunned and surprised, I turned to my husband and said "WE love OUR women?" It stuck with me and is one of the many little 'straws' that broke this camels back!
I think my husband is understanding and agreeing with more than I realize; this past Sunday he went to church and left my daughter and I home, no questions asked. Later, my 10 yr old son said to me in a questioning voice "Dad says church is better for boys than for girls, how come?" (Still some educating to go...) In response I asked him why that might be so. His response surprised me, "because boys have the priesthood and callings and are in charge of everything, and girls just have to do the callings that the boys tell them." Children are always smarter than I expect them to be! Although my husband and I disagree on many aspects of the LDS church, we both agree that women are treated extremely poorly; it's so blatant.
Gracie

[Born Free]

At our house, the treatment of women in the Church is one of the trigger issues. This obituary says SO much between the lines, which you picked up on exactly Laraine.

One of my all-time favorite Hinckley quotes was one in which he is being questioned by a media person (I wish I could remember who...maybe Larry King? Not sure...anyway)... The question regarding women holding the priesthood and not being able to hold leadership callings came up, and Hinckley's "brush-off" response was, and I quote, "We love our women."

That said it all for me. In that one, patronizing little statement, he summed it all up. "We," being the general body of the Church, is led by men. So that is a very, very masculine "WE."

"Our" is unmistakably possesive. We own them, we work them, and we like them well enough as long as they do what we say.

WE love OUR women. This is why I had to rescue my daughters from the Church. I associate with women of personal power, and am so glad my world is filled with them. Little bores me as much as people who have no "self."

Thanks for sharing this Laraine.

Paul

Paul,

I found it interesting how the guys hung back for a bit on this thread, before buying in! I am still considering what that might mean. Was it to give the women space to process a rage that we know deeply is well justified?

The sad loss in this Mo process for me as a male, IMHO, is that you cannot be abusive, condescending, to a subset of society without hurting yourself (myself). Any close reading of recent South African history shows how brutalised the whites were by the acts they perpetrated upon the blacks.

So men lose, big time! Women who are treated in that way, are not really our friends, friends who can tell us in no uncertain terms to pull out heads out of our a#ses, when we deserve it (as we all do at some time!); they are highly unlikely to be creative & full-blooded passionate lovers; they are unlikely to model full-blooded humanity and assertiveness in all they do; they are unlikely to make a full contribution to the human condition; unlikely to have independent, well reasoned positions on major environmental, social and political issues, etc., etc..

Who wants to be married to a shell of a human being? Seems to me that says a lot about the 'dominator'! Are they afraid of a partner with a spine, with a personality, an opinion, a mind?

I have 3 daughters and 1 son, and I abhore the idea that my daughters are any less human, and less deserving of respect and equal rights.

The 'our' statement is so condescending, so patronising - like we love our beagles! But he will be the last one to know how offensive his mindset is, because he is surrounded with "Yes-women and Yes-men", and you can be sure his mail is well filtered before it hits his desk.

Daryl

[free thinker]

The more backwards and ignorant a society is, the more it will mistreat women and children! Look at Islam and the nations stooped in the muslim religion! :Crazy:

Women do not NEED anything from us as men! Only love. Wich is exactly what we need from them!


Yes indeed, "WE LOVE OUR WOMEN". And we love our cat, and our dog, and our house, and our car, etc. etc. etc.!! Interesting look into the mind and heart of a Prophet of God! :p

Free Thinker

[bigeddy]

Daryl wrote;
If a woman like this has no life in her own regard, then it follows that her life only has value to the extent that the significant others in her life, live their lives according to her script, so there is little room for anyone to be themselves. They all then start to perform according to the implicitly agreed script as to roles and performance. Logically and from my personal experience, the woman in that position then starts to become the Martyr. She says in effect, I gave up my life for you! So you owe me BIG TIME.

Can't agree more. I learned at about age 10 that on Mother's day the smartest thing to do was get the hell out and stay gone all day long. My mother was another epitomy of the "righteous mowoman". She "served" the hell out of us all year long and then on Mother's day all the resentment came out. It was as clear as if she had announced verbally "Allright you little shits, I paid a price for you all year long, now its pay-back time." There was absolutely no way we could have done anything that would have been sufficient to "pay back" all that she had done that year. I learned early to clear out and stay gone all day long because there was always hell to pay. Nothing we could do was ever enough to pay back.

I watched several aspects of the treatment of children in Utah County and came away totally convinced that in that County (and in much of Utard) there is an underlying hatred of children. I can find no other explanation for the things I see happening. The momoms (and dads) did not really want to have the kids for all the "right" reasons so the resentment is there continually fouling the love that is so noisily espoused in Utah. Love; my posterior!!

Ed

[amaras]

I realize I'm being sinful by doing this, but whatever. You silly exmormons. You complain about everything that has happened to you in the church. Wow, a woman is happy and capable to bear more than any of you ever can, boo-hoo! People these days just don't have patience and can't put up with anything. If you don't like the fact that people can bear more pain than you, than shut up.

[Jeff_Ricks]

I realize I'm being sinful by doing this, but whatever. You silly exmormons. You complain about everything that has happened to you in the church. Wow, a woman is happy and capable to bear more than any of you ever can, boo-hoo! People these days just don't have patience and can't put up with anything. If you don't like the fact that people can bear more pain than you, than shut up.


It's interesting that you admit in a round about way that Mormonism is about bearing pain and putting up with whatever the Church heaps on you. I disagree with your view though that good Mormon women (as well as men) happily bear this pain and oppression. The government statistics on antidepressant use in Utah also disagrees with your contention that they do it happily. In case you’re not aware, Utah, and I believe specifically the Utah Valley area ranks as the highest consumers of antidepressants per capita in the entire nation.

Even your first sentence is telling of the oppressive nature of Mormonism. You can't even express your opinion without feeling guilty about what the Church might think.

It's not a matter of being unable to bear the pain but choosing not to put up with it. In my view life is something that should be enjoyed not endured. Remember, the truth is supposed to make you free, not a slave forced to endure pain and oppression and pretending to like it.

Jeff

[tjohnson]

I realize I'm being sinful by doing this, but whatever. You silly exmormons. You complain about everything that has happened to you in the church. Wow, a woman is happy and capable to bear more than any of you ever can, boo-hoo! People these days just don't have patience and can't put up with anything. If you don't like the fact that people can bear more pain than you, than shut up.

You honestly believe that people in the church should have to "bear more pain"? :Puking

I have chosen to not "endure to the end", but rather experience life as it was meant to be. The word "endure" helps people put up with all the stuff the church claims is part of being a healthly, loyal, faithful member. I have to disagree. If you have to "endure" while being in a religion, then something is wrong. :D

[silverfox]

I realize I'm being sinful by doing this, but whatever. You silly exmormons. You complain about everything that has happened to you in the church. Wow, a woman is happy and capable to bear more than any of you ever can, boo-hoo! People these days just don't have patience and can't put up with anything. If you don't like the fact that people can bear more pain than you, than shut up.

Why are you being "sinful'? I don't get it? Because you spoke your feelings? Because you are even visiting the board? What are you doing that is so wrong? Acknowledging us? Is that wrong? As one human being to another, is it wrong? Oh, well.

Your response is very typical and we would have all responded the exact same way as TBMs. So we do understand exactly where you are coming from and I appreciate your willingness to share and be open about your feelings. We know members are taught to not complain. We are just supposed to suck it up and take anything the church puts in our lap, down our throats, etc and not have an opinion, a complaint, etc. And if we DO have an opinion or complaint we best not be verbalizing it, right? Maybe that is where you feel you are sinning? Complaining about the complaining ex mos????

I will proclaim that I love all 5 of my children and I won't begin to tell you of the trials and challenges and rewards I have endured and sowed as a mother lovingly and openly - bring it on!!!! Hell, I think I can handle just about anything when it comes to kids so don't worry the Mormon's don't have the corner on raising and bearing children.

I don't need it in my obituary and I don't need MY very precious experiences in motherhood to be used to persuade others into motherhood, something they may not be ready for nor even want. It is such a personal choice and all too often many TBM women are pressured to have more children than they can handle. This is not a guess on my part, it is a fact and I speak from personal experience.

Best wishes to you, Amaras.

[lsands]

I second the replies made by Jeff, Silverfox, and TJohnson. Amaras, you think that life is supposed to be about how much pain we can bear? What is God, then, the big Sadist in the Sky? I thought that "men and women are that they may have joy?"

Thanks for reminding us once more of why we left.

Laraine

[silverfox]

I second the replies made by Jeff, Silverfox, and TJohnson. Amaras, you think that life is supposed to be about how much pain we can bear? What is God, then, the big Sadist in the Sky? I thought that "men and women are that they may have joy?"

Thanks for reminding us once more of why we left.

Laraine

Exactly. It appears that the message received in the obituary by TBMs is that we should all suffer. Quietly. I hope Mormon moms aren't getting pain meds with that labor. (enter sarcasm here)

[miss taken]

I realize I'm being sinful by doing this, but whatever. You silly exmormons. You complain about everything that has happened to you in the church. Wow, a woman is happy and capable to bear more than any of you ever can, boo-hoo! People these days just don't have patience and can't put up with anything. If you don't like the fact that people can bear more pain than you, than shut up.

Amaras, I think that a careful inspection of this site, will reveal that there are many people who post here, who look on their time in the church as they would life. It was/is full of ups and down, good and bad.

I think what many people ponder on is the fundamental claim that the LDS church makes that they are the ONLY true church upon the face of the earth, and that all other churches are of the devil. This may be wrapped up in more amenable language, but that is the fundamental belief and I do not think that I met many LDS people, even those without bigotry and full of humility, that didn't believe it.

I think for myself, I enjoy many of the posts on the boards, because people are reflecting, analysing, questioning, looking back on the very good, and yes sometimes even complaining, about their time in the LDS church.

This is a free society with freedom of speech, and I for one cherish and applause it.

[peter_mary]

I realize I'm being sinful by doing this, but whatever. You silly exmormons. You complain about everything that has happened to you in the church. Wow, a woman is happy and capable to bear more than any of you ever can, boo-hoo! People these days just don't have patience and can't put up with anything. If you don't like the fact that people can bear more pain than you, than shut up.

Yo, Amaras,

We are happy to have you post your thoughts, even dissenting ones, but what I worry about is that this is a "hit and run" operation. Do you want to start a conversation? 'Cause if you do, this is a great place. Otherwise, thanks, as Laraine said, for reinforcing the reasons why we left, and frankly, the reasons for this thread! It is not suffering we are complaining about...it is about an institution that not only expects it, but imposes it. And I'll complain about THAT all day long!

I say, Whine and Cheese Party at Dogzilla's House!

Paul

[Born Free]

My cross is heavier than your cross! (What? You post-Mos don't even believe you should be lugging one around? How evil!) And therefore I am more virtuous!

I love the logic. "I suffer therefore I am!" Interesting departure from "I think, therefore I am". My wife and I have a joke in our family that goes - you can climb up on the cross and drive the first nail in for yourself, but you need help to finish the cruxificion.

Sorry, but I observe that most regulars here think that is a silly game; there are much more interesting things to do. Further, I believe that failure to define ones' life's meaning beyond suffering is either lazy or symptomatic of childhood abuse that has not been treated.

But, don't just put your hand on the hot plate, scream and run! Hang around for a bit, read a few threads. You might see some other reasons for living beyond suffering.

Daryl

PS: Personally, I don't find name-calling very becoming. (Wow, a woman is happy and capable to bear more than any of you ever can, boo-hoo!) It does not hurt me, but does appear to belittle you. I would be far more interested to hear you take the time, and make the effort to think through and articulate your position a bit better.

A wide variety of opinion is expressed here, and that is sustainable because people are treated with respect, and it is assumed the opinions they express are based upon personal experience, which in turn is owned as personal. No one claims to have the answers for "The World". No one claims to speak on behalf of "all men" or "all women". I personally see that as grandiose on one hand, and a way of disowning and staying disconnected from their own experience.

So I invite you to come out from behind your martyr identity, name-calling, and be real, and tell us how it is for you.

[pokatator]

I realize I'm being sinful by doing this, but whatever. You silly exmormons. You complain about everything that has happened to you in the church. Wow, a woman is happy and capable to bear more than any of you ever can, boo-hoo! People these days just don't have patience and can't put up with anything. If you don't like the fact that people can bear more pain than you, than shut up.
Wow....I think your halo is on a little too tight!!

[mutleydog]

I realize I'm being sinful by doing this, but whatever. You silly exmormons. You complain about everything that has happened to you in the church. Wow, a woman is happy and capable to bear more than any of you ever can, boo-hoo! People these days just don't have patience and can't put up with anything. If you don't like the fact that people can bear more pain than you, than shut up.


I agree with all the replies to this so far. I just want to add though, how judgemental and ignorant that statement is. As far as I am concerned, we are not complaining, a majority of the time we are stating facts and experiences that we had whilst in and coming out of the church. I cannot bear it when people compare one anothers burdens, pain - its all individual. What one person might find unbearable could be totally at the other end of the scale of someone who can. Everyone has a threshold and you don't need the church to see that and members of the church do not have the sole monopoly on these things. I hated the fact that many church members dwelled on the negative things in life, as if having more problems than others was a sign of being more worthy or something. If thats the case I should have had my 'election made sure' long ago!! As a church member my family and I went through some traumatic events - they probably would have happened regardless if I was a member or not......however, the church also raised some traumatic experiences for me and I would not have had to have dealt with them if I hadn't of been a member. I guess that may seem like complaining, but human nature is about preservation in one form or another - if I hadn't of left I would have probably had a nervous breakdown or worse!! I have seen it happen in other members and its not a pretty road to travel. I got out when I had a enough strength to do so......my my Mum said she was proud......in acknowledging that it wasn't right after such a long time of being a member...she said it takes courage to admit that perhaps something isn't right for you and do something about it. I am sure there are many members that feel that they would like to be 'free' but haven't the strength to make the move at the moment.

Just one final comment......when I 'came-out' to my bishop, he told me 'it was the cross I had to bare'. That statement has never been forgotten! Being gay is not a cross to bare......its about being me! Now I have left, I have no crosses to bare.....I am me.....I answer to me and I make my own informed choices....though being gay is not a choice!

[mutleydog]

Paul,

I found it interesting how the guys hung back for a bit on this thread, before buying in! I am still considering what that might mean. Was it to give the women space to process a rage that we know deeply is well justified?

The sad loss in this Mo process for me as a male, IMHO, is that you cannot be abusive, condescending, to a subset of society without hurting yourself (myself). Any close reading of recent South African history shows how brutalised the whites were by the acts they perpetrated upon the blacks.

So men lose, big time! Women who are treated in that way, are not really our friends, friends who can tell us in no uncertain terms to pull out heads out of our a#ses, when we deserve it (as we all do at some time!); they are highly unlikely to be creative & full-blooded passionate lovers; they are unlikely to model full-blooded humanity and assertiveness in all they do; they are unlikely to make a full contribution to the human condition; unlikely to have independent, well reasoned positions on major environmental, social and political issues, etc., etc..

Who wants to be married to a shell of a human being? Seems to me that says a lot about the 'dominator'! Are they afraid of a partner with a spine, with a personality, an opinion, a mind?

I have 3 daughters and 1 son, and I abhore the idea that my daughters are any less human, and less deserving of respect and equal rights.

The 'our' statement is so condescending, so patronising - like we love our beagles! But he will be the last one to know how offensive his mindset is, because he is surrounded with "Yes-women and Yes-men", and you can be sure his mail is well filtered before it hits his desk.

Daryl

I think you have hit one preverbial nail on the head there Daryl.

Whilst a member I always felt like many men were intimidated by me. A well educated woman with a promising a career didn't always go down too well. I would date guys and it seemed as soon as they found out what I did, they ran for the hills!! It seemed like they were brought up to be the head of household, the bread-winner etc. and even the slightest hint that a woman could be potentailly the greater income earner or whatever was a huge no no! I never relented in my opinions on this subject. I agree that men and women do have different inherent roles in this world, but we are equal in our abilities to do, say whatever we desire. We have equal right to better ourselves academically, professionally, emotionally, physically etc. and share in the responsibilities of bringing up children (if thats a couples desire) and running a home.....and I mean share - not necessarily woman at home, man at work.....there can be a more balanced approach if thats what both parties decide. Having said that, its about what you want, not about someone (a church) telling what you should or be expected to do!!

[dogzilla]

I say, Whine and Cheese Party at Dogzilla's House!

Paul

Sorry, Paul, my house is a No Whine Zone. Eliminating unncessary stress and all that.

However, Wine and Cheese are usually available and you're all welcome to stop by on your way to Disney. :p

[free thinker]

Amaras


Me thinks thou doth protest too much!!!! ;)


Stick around! Do some reading! And THINKING for yourself!! Those old men in Salt Lake City don't run the world. They just think they do!

Sorry you are having the struggles you are. I think you are unhappy!! :o But you do not have to stay unhappy. Remember, you are an agent unto yourself!!


C'mon back sometime. Lay out your case. Discuss it openly. You will find the folks here are quite civil. But beware. The BS meter is sensative here. We just dont like the smell!! :)

Free Thinker

[kreleia]

There is an obituary for Dantzel White Nelson, wife of apostle Russel M. Nelson, in today's SL Trib that has really set me off! :eek: I don't want to be judgemental of her or the decisions she made any more than I want to judge anyone else. It is the message contained in the article that has triggered old memories and feelings. A few excerpts from the article:

"Nelson died suddenly but peacefully...while holding hands with Russell Nelson, her husband of almost 60 years. [She was 79.]...Though married to a heart surgeon and LDS apostle...she developed no airs, no pretenses, no judgments, no boundaries....Dantzel had been accepted to the Julliard School of Music in New York, but marriage changed all that....And the babies kept coming. Nine of them. All girls. But Nelson always knew she would have a boy....Russell M. Nelson Jr. was born on March 21, 1972. In...30 plus years [her neighbor] said she has never seen Dantzel Nelson get angry. Nor complain, even after a five-year bout of cancer and ongoing heart trouble. Nelson went quietly about mothering 10 children, 56 grandchildren, and 14 great-grandchildren....Given the number of her posterity, Hinckley said, "Dantzel will become a legend to the generations that follow." :Puking
I don't wish to detract from all that this amazing woman did for others, but what does it tell Mormon women about what they are valued for?:
---Marrying young
---Giving up opportunities to develop talents for husband and family
---Having 10 :eek: children, and continuing to bear children until you get a son
---Having NO BOUNDARIES
---Never getting angry or complaining
---The NUMBER of your posterity

I'll probably post more about my thoughts and feelings about this later, but I'm too angry right now. Your comments?

Sorry for digging up older threads, but this has intrigued me.

I watched my mother go through extreme depression, even though she was doing everything "right." I, myself, am still battling depression, although, slowly, I'm coming out of it. I think coming out of the church and deprogramming has a lot to do with it.

I can't even begin to imagine the personal pain and deep-seated depression that "sister" Nelson went through in her lifetime. If she did it all without complaint, it's because at some point she learned - very harshly, no doubt - that her voice and her feelings meant nothing.

She rejected Julliard - JULLIARD!! - for marriage!?? I think not! I think she was probably brow-beaten into her decision by her "elders." That, and young love (or lust, as it is with most young mo's) can be powerfully blinding. Nonetheless, I think this is a very obvious example in how much women have changed over the past half-century.

I mourn the fact that this woman is gone - but moreso, I mourn the fact that she's not even remembered for who she was - only for what she did to make her husband look better. :(

[formermormon]

Sorry for digging up older threads, but this has intrigued me.

I watched my mother go through extreme depression, even though she was doing everything "right." I, myself, am still battling depression, although, slowly, I'm coming out of it. I think coming out of the church and deprogramming has a lot to do with it.

I can't even begin to imagine the personal pain and deep-seated depression that "sister" Nelson went through in her lifetime. If she did it all without complaint, it's because at some point she learned - very harshly, no doubt - that her voice and her feelings meant nothing.

She rejected Julliard - JULLIARD!! - for marriage!?? I think not! I think she was probably brow-beaten into her decision by her "elders." That, and young love (or lust, as it is with most young mo's) can be powerfully blinding. Nonetheless, I think this is a very obvious example in how much women have changed over the past half-century.

I mourn the fact that this woman is gone - but moreso, I mourn the fact that she's not even remembered for who she was - only for what she did to make her husband look better. :(

I think this is a topic with enormous depth. I mean, the values implied in the obituary are startling. We get almost NO information about her as a person - only what she was NOT.

This runs deep in mormon culture. Like your mother, Krelia, my own grandmother often spoke (at great length) about how wonderful her father was---but rarely, if ever, mentioned her mother. Her mother raised 9 kids on a dirt farm and sacrificed EVERYTHING for her family, and the kids don't even especially remember her fondly? :mad: I suspect that the woman led a very depressed life!

I remember being in church at 11 or 12 years old and hearing some lesson about being ready for marriage or something - or women's role as wife and mother, and I just thought - so what are we FOR? I mean, if a woman's whole purpose is to just make more people, what are THOSE people for? If we never DO anything special as individuals, what's the fricking point? I mean, mice, and pigs and fish have offspring - if that's my only purpose, then why do I need any special characteristics at all? What use is my intelligence or personality, or insight, or talent? If it goes beyond birthing and caring for children, there is not mormon use for it.

Can you imagine a mormon obit that spoke of a man that way? That he didn't put on airs even though his wife had a successful career? That he didn't complain ever?

PUH-frickin'-LEEZE

[kreleia]

I remember being in church at 11 or 12 years old and hearing some lesson about being ready for marriage or something - or women's role as wife and mother, and I just thought - so what are we FOR? I mean, if a woman's whole purpose is to just make more people, what are THOSE people for? If we never DO anything special as individuals, what's the fricking point?

I hear you loud and clear. My sister and I had a "list" of lessons that were given while we were in Young Women's. As I recall, there were 4 that we narrowed down, but all from different "angles." They were:

1 - Be (physically) attractive for your future mate. (they'd throw in education for good measure)

2 - Dating: Don't Do It.

3 - The joys of a celestial marriage; and

4 - Becoming a mother in Zion

We were always asking how it was that we were supposed to find a "mate," have a marriage, and be a mother if we weren't supposed to date in the first place. Back then we laughed about it, but now, it's interesting that we were that observant.

Can you imagine a mormon obit that spoke of a man that way? That he didn't put on airs even though his wife had a successful career? That he didn't complain ever?

PUH-frickin'-LEEZE

You're absolutely right - it wouldn't happen. And it won't.

And, here's a random thought - for all the studying and quoting of the General Authorities that the Church Relief Society presidency does in the hundreds of speeches that they give regularly, you never once hear the GA's quoting them.