Truth and Lies and Truth and Lies and Truth......etc

[miss taken]

I find this an interesting concept, because again it came up in many conversations with members. The times I heard people say that Jehova Witnesses, etc were the church of Satan, I would ask why, since I was sure that their religion contained many good principles. I was told that Satan would give 9 truths for 1 lie, because that is the way he works, whereas the Mormon Faith is 100% truth.

So, I recieve this article called 'Lying for the Lord' which lists all the times Joseph and others have lied.

And I think okay, by the churches own definition, Satan is the father of lies. and God is a God of truth, and I think...well it just doesn't add up.

Truth is truth, and a lie is a lie. (Am I being simplistic here?)

So, when P H Dunn Lies with good intentions, to promote the faith of the church, then he is still serving Satan using the churches own definition because that is just the way it works. (and I am sure I remember one talk where it says that his patriarchal blessing said he was one of the few that could become a son of perdition- which is a 'father of lies' no???)

And the same applies to all this covering up of the churches past, and its less than perfect beginnings.
If it is founded on the principles of truth and honesty, it should tell people the truth from the start. Right from those missionary discussions, and then a person, can make up their mind one way or the other, but do it on the full evidence.

I can't see how this could be apostate thoughts to wish the church tell the truth. Since it purports to worship a God, who is a God of truth.

What do you think???? (Sorry if all this is covered elsewhere, it's been 10 years since I have talked openly about this stuff, and right now I feel like I am just offloading)

[dogzilla]

I think it all depends on how one defines "truth" and "lies." By the church's definition, it is the truth. That church definition is going to be limited by all the facts that would clearly spell out "lie." So, it is an apostate thought to even suggest the church is anything but the truth. :Puking

(This is the only message board I'm a member of where we've actually been given a puking smilie. I love Little Pukey, as I call it.)

Much in the same way members cherry pick what they want from the Word of Wisdom and then go into the bishop's office and tell him, without the least sense of irony for the dead cow on their breath, they obey the word of wisdom and should be allowed in the temple. Whatever you decide the truth is . . . anything else is Satan. (If you believe in satan, that is.)

[miss taken]

I just read the link below, as well as the article by Dallin Oaks, and it just all seems so woolly. Oaks quotes, the fact that biblical characters were not perfect, and I think, yes we all know that, it is there in black and white for people to read. With LDS history it is a different matter, the leadership are not up front about it, even with the best motives, which I am sure, SURE that they have, and I wouldn't be so cynical as to say there was a financial motive there. These people really do 100% believe in the church, that it is the saviours, it has their love and loyalty.

I just wish they had not kept me in ignorance, and took away the opportunity that I feel I should have hadto judge whether Joseph was a prophet on all the evidence, not just a white-washed view of it.

http://trialsofascension.net/mormon/lying.html
http://www.lds-mormon.com/oakslying.shtml

[dogzilla]

From that second link, I think the first quote in the very beginning says it all:
"Don't refer too much to the early days and the great faculty members who were here when this law school was founded,” Levi counseled. “You have to avoid talking too much about the great faculty members of the early days, lest the students and the public conclude that the great people who have taught at this law school were all in the early days and overlook the fact that the really great ones are those who are here now.”

In other words, don't TALK about the man behind the curtain or we'll have to acknoledge there's a man behind the curtain and then nobody will hear anything else we're trying to teach.

Exactly. Avoid talking about Truth vs. Lies so we don't have to confront the Lies and be Tempted by Satan to Apostasize.

[free thinker]

I just read the link below, as well as the article by Dallin Oaks, and it just all seems so woolly. Oaks quotes, the fact that biblical characters were not perfect, and I think, yes we all know that, it is there in black and white for people to read. With LDS history it is a different matter, the leadership are not up front about it, even with the best motives, which I am sure, SURE that they have, and I wouldn't be so cynical as to say there was a financial motive there. These people really do 100% believe in the church, that it is the saviours, it has their love and loyalty.

I just wish they had not kept me in ignorance, and took away the opportunity that I feel I should have hadto judge whether Joseph was a prophet on all the evidence, not just a white-washed view of it.

http://trialsofascension.net/mormon/lying.html
http://www.lds-mormon.com/oakslying.shtml

I have no respect for these men anymore! I used to look up to them. Now I realize they are just average guys, living average lives!

Free Thinker

[twine]

I have no respect for these men anymore! I used to look up to them. Now I realize they are just average guys, living average lives!

Free Thinker

Average guys indeed, but are they living average lives? IMHO, not at all. They are celebrities to the TBMs. When was the last time everyone in an auditorium stood when you entered the room. And they seem to have very comfortable stipends (not to be confused with salaries :Puking ). Think about it, they have respect that was not earned, but given by virtue of a title. They have money "sufficient for their means" (how much is sufficient again?) No wonder none of them are willing to call an apple and apple and expose the church for what it is. I am convinced that these men know it is all a bunch of crap. I am sure, however, they have justified this deceit as being beneficial to the flock. No respect for these men indeed! I hate to use the little puker twice in one posting but.... :Puking

[peter_mary]

So, I recieve this article called 'Lying for the Lord' which lists all the times Joseph and others have lied.



I think that religion often has an over-inflated sense of self-importance, but Mormons take it to a whole new plain. See, in the Mormon world-view, God can't actually do most things on His own--he needs Mormons to do it for Him. How many times in Church have you heard that "The Lord works through other people." He is THE master manipulator.

In the Mormon Church, God can't save all of mankind--Mormons must do it. God gives them the temple ceremony, but Mormons have to get in there and do the work for every person who ever lived and died. God can't build his kingdom on earth, He needs your money, so Mormons have to give a lot of it. God can't actually appear to people and say, "Hey! I got a pretty good Church goin' over there in Salt Lake City, and if you want to keep your ass out of an eternal lake of fire, you best be checkin' out my main man, Gordon "The B" Hinckley." No, God needs 19 year old boys and 21 year old girls out stomping around preaching the good word, like they would actually have a clue at that age.

But there are times when God also needs the protection of Mormons, and that's why sometimes a Good Mormon has to lie on His Holy behalf. Like, say for instance, you are Joseph Smith, and you've received this revelation that you simply have GOT to have sex with Fanny Alger. She's just hot, and Emma ain't much to look at since having all those kids, and God is like, "Take her, because, um...welll...oh! Because Plural Marriage is THE form of marriage in the Celestial Kingdom! In fact, better not stop with Fanny!" So here you are, saddled with this burden that God has placed upon you, but hell, you're a prophet...so what are you gonna do? You've got to do what God commands, but begging his Eternal Pardon, He seemed to overlook the very real possibility that if you just up and announce polygamy in the Newspapers, you're likely to get drug out of town by the ankles behind a team of fast horses. That God...he's always overlooking those kinds of details! So you have NO CHOICE but to lie to protect God...'cause you love that holy Bumbler SO much. And everyone just says, "Man, you DO love God, don't you?"

And you sniffle and say, "Yes, by golly, I do. Can I have your 16 year old? The Lord has revealed to me that she is one bodacious babe who needs a seat in the Celestial Kingdom."

Joseph was just protecting God...that's not lying...is it?

Paul