Why does the church still mean a lot to me after 10 years!

[miss taken]

I'm going to write this, then I really need to get on with some work!!

I'm writing this, because yesterday, I came across a BYU professors comments about post mormon folk that write on boards like this. His attitude, if a little unloving, was put up, shut up and go away.

Actually he made me wonder why, after 10 years, I still spend many hours pondering on the church, and still retain as my very best friends people that I got to know through it. And why I would be happy to keep company with most mormon folk today.

Okay, so the church is founded on pretty shaky origins, but for me, in blissful ignorance of that, it was about living a clean, happy, family life, following christ-like precepts, and about having the answers to most of the questions I asked as a young teenager about what life was all about.

In a way, as a convert, I married the church, it had my intellect, my heart, and my commitment, and leaving it was like going through this traumatic divorce, but one where the memories are still bittersweet, and sometimes I crave, child-like, for the security that comes from thinking that someone can give you definitive answers. Can anyone relate to this???

[wescape]

Hi again Miss Taken,

I think we all crave definitive answers which is exactly why cults like Mormonism thrive. They have everything laid out in a nice little package which allows one to escape the tension that comes along with living as a human being in a war-torn, pain-filled yet stunningly beautiful world. Essentially, these groups do all the thinking for their members. No longer is there any need to wrestle with or even ask the big questions of life.

It is much more difficult to live in the paradoxical mystery of suffering/death and joy/beauty that accompanies this life. There are countless ways to avoid living into this mystery (I have discovered many of them through personal experience) and cults just provide an instant way to escape it.

When I initially embraced Christianity several years after leaving Mormonism, I unwittingly assumed that it was the true definitive answer I was looking for. Now I see that while it does provide me with a basic worldview and framework to approach life from, it is also very mysterious leaving many questions unanswered. Beyond that, if I'm honest I must acknowledge that it too could be a sham just like Mormonism. I am merely a flawed human who is not all knowing and therefore the only thing I can say is that I believe it to be true. In that sense, I don't believe there are any definitive answers. Of course I do believe there is hope and that is why I am a follower of Jesus, the only person I know of who is said to have lived a perfect life. But maybe he didn't? And maybe he was insane or just a liar? If so, then I have been deceived along with millions of others. That is something that will always be a possibility until he returns (if he returns, which I believe he will).

Not sure if that helps you any but hopefully where I am coming from at least made sense. Take care. :)

Wes

[Free-soil]

Hi again Miss Taken,

I think we all crave definitive answers which is exactly why cults like Mormonism thrive. They have everything laid out in a nice little package which allows one to escape the tension that comes along with living as a human being in a war-torn, pain-filled yet stunningly beautiful world. Essentially, these groups do all the thinking for their members. No longer is there any need to wrestle with or even ask the big questions of life.

It is much more difficult to live in the paradoxical mystery of suffering/death and joy/beauty that accompanies this life. There are countless ways to avoid living into this mystery (I have discovered many of them through personal experience) and cults just provide an instant way to escape it.

When I initially embraced Christianity several years after leaving Mormonism, I unwittingly assumed that it was the true definitive answer I was looking for. Now I see that while it does provide me with a basic worldview and framework to approach life from, it is also very mysterious leaving many questions unanswered. Beyond that, if I'm honest I must acknowledge that it too could be a sham just like Mormonism. I am merely a flawed human who is not all knowing and therefore the only thing I can say is that I believe it to be true. In that sense, I don't believe there are any definitive answers. Of course I do believe there is hope and that is why I am a follower of Jesus, the only person I know of who is said to have lived a perfect life. But maybe he didn't? And maybe he was insane or just a liar? If so, then I have been deceived along with millions of others. That is something that will always be a possibility until he returns (if he returns, which I believe he will).

Not sure if that helps you any but hopefully where I am coming from at least made sense. Take care. :)

Wes

Well put! You put down all my thoughts right here!

Free-Soil

[shamdiel]

Any good person will always look with fondness on the loving experiences of their life. Your experiences with mormons had it's good points as well. A wise person never hates or forgets the experiences that brought them to where they are. These experiences were your teachers and brought to you the wisdom and understanding that you now have, be it good or bad, you have learned and that is what it is all about. Wes is wise to realize that learning never ends and you never know when a new teacher will come your way. Just never close your mind or ever again allow anyone or anything to convince you that you have it all and need no more! I heard a wise person say; "Believe what feels good and makes you happy and allow others to do the same." None of us can really prove anything we believe anyway! It might as well be something that makes you happy!!!

John ;)

[Born Free]

I'm going to write this, then I really need to get on with some work!!

I'm writing this, because yesterday, I came across a BYU professors comments about post mormon folk that write on boards like this. His attitude, if a little unloving, was put up, shut up and go away.

Actually he made me wonder why, after 10 years, I still spend many hours pondering on the church, and still retain as my very best friends people that I got to know through it. And why I would be happy to keep company with most mormon folk today.

Okay, so the church is founded on pretty shaky origins, but for me, in blissful ignorance of that, it was about living a clean, happy, family life, following christ-like precepts, and about having the answers to most of the questions I asked as a young teenager about what life was all about.

In a way, as a convert, I married the church, it had my intellect, my heart, and my commitment, and leaving it was like going through this traumatic divorce, but one where the memories are still bittersweet, and sometimes I crave, child-like, for the security that comes from thinking that someone can give you definitive answers. Can anyone relate to this???

miss taken,

I thought Wes' response to your question was first class, and certainly quite consistent with my experience, although in my case, I now have a very 'liberal' view of Christianity. Even Christianity became unacceptable to me, what with all the Divine Intervention etc, until I discovered John Shelby Spong. I first read his book Why Christianity Must Change or Die, and I wished a book like that had been available years ago.

I believe that you are right on the money when seeing this as all about security. Spong expresses the opinion that most Christians state that truth is critically important to them, yet when presented with the option to become more familiar with the truth, they chose security and turn their back on truth.

Initially the notion of letting go of security seems overwhelmingly scary. Then, one progressively realises that the security is all perceived, rather than real. Believing in the Divine Santa Clause does not make him so. We are still out of step with reality, and surely our greatest security lies in being maximumly in touch with reality, not some fairy tale that creates a warm and fuzzy feeling. Feelings ar enot facts.

As you look around this site and what has been written by many people at different points on the same journey you are on, I suggest you will see consistently that people say that letting go of 'fools security' was scary, but that they had reached a point where their integrity demanded it. BUT, paradoxically, once the initial terror passed, they found they had emerged into a new peace, far more joyful and sustaining than anything they had had previously. The worlds "the mystery of life" are used frequently.

Did you hear that in Mormonism? Instead of being present and conscious and vulnerable in the face of the mystery of life, most Mormons pluck some inane, inconistsent, childish belief out of 'the package' and then tell themselves how good they feel, being in possession of God's Truth. What they will filter, ignore, twist, lie about etc, to make that work is unbelievable. And you are just early on a new stage of a journey of seeing how much they twisted themselves inside out to make that work.

I would encourage you to have faith in your own intelligence, and wisdom, and capacity to rebound if you make a mistake or two. Why? Because the alternative is to trust in some other human beings intelligence, wisdom more than your own, and that is a supremely slippery slope. They don't live with the consequences if it is wrong - you do! That approach is like a parent who keeps holding off the day when they allow their teenagers make decisions for themselves and live with the consequences. Like Eternal Cotton Wool!

Not very healthy in my experience.

Daryl

[Born Free]

I
I'm writing this, because yesterday, I came across a BYU professors comments about post mormon folk that write on boards like this. His attitude, if a little unloving, was put up, shut up and go away.

I find this a 'cute' mindset coming from an academic! Does science work on the notion "Buy my theory in its entirety, or you can't use any part of my thinking?"

Of course not. It works on the capacity to replicate results and mount robust logic to explain outcomes. That means that people grab what is defensible, and chip away at what is not, until a higher level of truth emerges.

Is that what he is proposing? Obviously not. So here we have an academic, who all day in his professional context works upon one set of principles, and then when he shifts into Church mode, operates upon another. Splitting off it is called.

Unless you can accept the idea that God's domain works on another set of principals. 5 minutes study shows that what Mosim claims is God's domain is in fact very maleable (scripture, doctrine, Temple Ordinances, racist practice etc.,), shifting regularly in response to human pressures, so I would argue that it is not a clearly set in stone as many Mormons would like to imagine.

Daryl

[free thinker]

I find this a 'cute' mindset coming from an academic! Does science work on the notion "Buy my theory in its entirety, or you can't use any part of my thinking?"

Of course not. It works on the capacity to replicate results and mount robust logic to explain outcomes. That means that people grab what is defensible, and chip away at what is not, until a higher level of truth emerges.

Is that what he is proposing? Obviously not. So here we have an academic, who all day in his professional context works upon one set of principles, and then when he shifts into Church mode, operates upon another. Splitting off it is called.

Unless you can accept the idea that God's domain works on another set of principals. 5 minutes study shows that what Mosim claims is God's domain is in fact very maleable (scripture, doctrine, Temple Ordinances, racist practice etc.,), shifting regularly in response to human pressures, so I would argue that it is not a clearly set in stone as many Mormons would like to imagine.

Daryl

I agree with both of the above posts by Daryl. I am in the process of this " mystery of life unfolding". It is, without a doubt, the most exhilarating thing I have ever experienced. Nothing in mormonism ever came close! Why? Because this is reality! Patrick Henry said it like this. "For my part,whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth- to know the worst and provide for it." Deepak Chopra said to "embrace uncertainty".

I have come to know that NOONE has all the answers! NOONE! That is ok with me. It gives me a chance to learn things myself as I go along! Life is an amazing journey. Drink it in! And remember, when someone says, "THIS IS THE WAY", you will have to give up some of your own thinking ,and freedom if you follow! Not me baby! Been there, done that!!

My girlfriend has a daughter that is 13 years old. She still has a blanket that she likes to hold. It is an old and tattered blanket, held together by string only. This is a blanket she has had for many years, and she does not want to let it go, but you can see it's days are numbered. One day she will pick it up, and look at it, and ask, " why am I keeping this old thing". You get the point. You can only go so far in mormonism!


Free Thinker

[miss taken]

Thanks for your really thoughtful comments.

I watched a programme over here by Richard Dawkins. I don't know if he is popular at all over in the U.S. He is an atheist. He did a programme on how the brain is programmed for religious experience. He was arguing that we all have this little area of our brain that is tuned to ask those fundamental questions that the LDS church tries to succinctly answer.

It was interesting, because when they monitored his brain, the area that is responsible for religious experience was not there, which argues that there is a brain-based reason why he refuses to believe in a religious answer to lifes questions (Though one could argue that much of science is still in the realm of 'religion' in that there is no definitive answers to what gravity is, what causes it, and the same for magnetism and electricity).

So, it seems to me that most of us have evolved, because it served a useful purpose, to ask questions and seek answers.

I do think that the LDS church has a lot of things right. I really do. I like a LOT of the doctrine. I like seeking good in all things, the emphasis on the saviour, the word of wisdom, which after all is just that, a word of wisdom, Do I like it all. No. If a bishop asked me if I thought Joseph Smith was a prophet (I was in the church from childhood until 30) then now I couldn't truthfully answer yes. I would have to say I don't know. The nearest I can come is to say that I believe that Jesus of Nazereth is a good role model, a son of God, as we all are children of a greater intelligence. I walked the land he walked and sailed on the seas he sailed on, and couldn't help but see him in his historical rather than mythologised context. I believe he was a very good man. I hope in a life after death. I hope there is eternal progression, and that love is the most important principle. That's it. Do you think they would allow me back in!!!!

[silverfox]

Thanks for your really thoughtful comments.

I watched a programme over here by Richard Dawkins. I don't know if he is popular at all over in the U.S. He is an atheist. He did a programme on how the brain is programmed for religious experience. He was arguing that we all have this little area of our brain that is tuned to ask those fundamental questions that the LDS church tries to succinctly answer.

It was interesting, because when they monitored his brain, the area that is responsible for religious experience was not there, which argues that there is a brain-based reason why he refuses to believe in a religious answer to lifes questions (Though one could argue that much of science is still in the realm of 'religion' in that there is no definitive answers to what gravity is, what causes it, and the same for magnetism and electricity).

So, it seems to me that most of us have evolved, because it served a useful purpose, to ask questions and seek answers.

I do think that the LDS church has a lot of things right. I really do. I like a LOT of the doctrine. I like seeking good in all things, the emphasis on the saviour, the word of wisdom, which after all is just that, a word of wisdom, Do I like it all. No. If a bishop asked me if I thought Joseph Smith was a prophet (I was in the church from childhood until 30) then now I couldn't truthfully answer yes. I would have to say I don't know. The nearest I can come is to say that I believe that Jesus of Nazereth is a good role model, a son of God, as we all are children of a greater intelligence. I walked the land he walked and sailed on the seas he sailed on, and couldn't help but see him in his historical rather than mythologised context. I believe he was a very good man. I hope in a life after death. I hope there is eternal progression, and that love is the most important principle. That's it. Do you think they would allow me back in!!!!

Welcome, Miss Taken. I have been out sick for more than a week and I have a lot of catching up to do.

Hmmmm that sounds interesting about his monitored brain and missing the religious part. Wonder where mine went. :p Cuz I will tell you I strongly believed in a Christ all my life before as a nonmember and for a short time after my apostacy. After researching the church I started doing some research regarding the Bible and it's authenticity. Sheeesh! I strongly feel that there is no way to prove the events happened. Was there a Christ? Maybe? Probably? But what was he really all about? How true are the eye witness accounts of the events that supposedly took place - a lot of the Bible was written many years after the events supposedly took place? (not really asking just thinking out loud. Don't want to get into a debate regarding the Bible) I am comfy with the thought that Christ may have existed and that his example isn't a bad one to live by.

I know many people who have been athiest all their lives and have lived wonderful happy lives filled with good for mankind. I find it fascinating how much power the Bible has in our politics, governments, life in general, etc. I also find it fascinating how so many parts of the world have their own concepts and beliefs and how much they can differ from our country.

IMO, I feel the LDS church has just as much good to offer as any other church. They don't have the market on anything "special" except for their guilt and persuasion tactics and marketing skills. There is nothing special about them except that they are "different' than other religious organizations because they are run more like a corporation, not a church.

[miss taken]

Hi Silverfox. Hope you are feeling better.
Thanks for comments. I think my worldview is just too liberal to ever fit back into the LDS church, but I'll never say never...

Being a UK LDS member, I don't think we ever saw the 'corporate' kind of aspects of the church that you speak of. I'd be interested to know why people feel that.

The thing that smacked of the institutionalisation of the church was when Spencer Kimball was being interviewed by Alan Wicker over here, and said that because of the nature of the church organisation, it was unlikely that a 'carpenter' would ever become a president/prophet of the church. That comment made me feel ill inside, and I was only 15/16, it just didn't fit with my view of the way leaders should be judged, especially since Jesus himself was a carpenter, Peter was a fisherman, and I suppose the most status ridden job was the tax collector! Still, none of these men were big business men, just marked out by their loyalty to Jesus.

I don't agree with Joseph S when he says he did better than Jesus at inspiring loyalty though. I think the early christians were prepared to risk all, many of them... I don't fancy being fed to the lions, I would have protected myself and my children and kept quiet.

[Born Free]

Thanks for your really thoughtful comments.

I watched a programme over here by Richard Dawkins. I don't know if he is popular at all over in the U.S. He is an atheist. He did a programme on how the brain is programmed for religious experience. He was arguing that we all have this little area of our brain that is tuned to ask those fundamental questions that the LDS church tries to succinctly answer.

It was interesting, because when they monitored his brain, the area that is responsible for religious experience was not there, which argues that there is a brain-based reason why he refuses to believe in a religious answer to lifes questions

When this brain centre was discovered it was jokingly referred to as the other G Spot here (Oz), and much fun made of whether men were as likely to have difficulty locating this one.

I am not sure what the program with Dawkins showed, but I became aware of this research through a radio program here, and as I recall they could produce the sensation at call by bringing a strong magnetic field into proximity with the brain centre. I would personally be suspect about "the centre not being there"! More likely the synaptic wiring of that part of his brain did not respond to the stimulus with the observed "God spot" response of increased neural activity.

I have looked out over the years for good books and essays on the subject, to see how various punters responded to that experimental finding. I can see that reducing a 'spiritual experience' to an observable and replicatable elecromagnetic phenomenon in some people, could be very threatening to some audiences.

I have concuded after 50 odd years that I may have been behind the door when they were issuing this G Spot.

Daryl

PS: Have a look at this article re the research:

http://members.shaw.ca/tfrisen/Science/brain.htm

[silverfox]

Hi Silverfox. Hope you are feeling better.
Thanks for comments. I think my worldview is just too liberal to ever fit back into the LDS church, but I'll never say never...

Being a UK LDS member, I don't think we ever saw the 'corporate' kind of aspects of the church that you speak of. I'd be interested to know why people feel that.

The thing that smacked of the institutionalisation of the church was when Spencer Kimball was being interviewed by Alan Wicker over here, and said that because of the nature of the church organisation, it was unlikely that a 'carpenter' would ever become a president/prophet of the church. That comment made me feel ill inside, and I was only 15/16, it just didn't fit with my view of the way leaders should be judged, especially since Jesus himself was a carpenter, Peter was a fisherman, and I suppose the most status ridden job was the tax collector! Still, none of these men were big business men, just marked out by their loyalty to Jesus.

I don't agree with Joseph S when he says he did better than Jesus at inspiring loyalty though. I think the early christians were prepared to risk all, many of them... I don't fancy being fed to the lions, I would have protected myself and my children and kept quiet.

Hi, Miss Taken. I have enjoyed reading your posts. I often wonder what it might be like being a member in another country. Of course I live in Utard but I found the church was just the same when I lived in Michigan.

As for the church being "corporate" - read the thread "Concerned About Joining Now...." link follows. There are references regarding the church as a corporate organization that are right smack on, IMNSHO.

http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/showthread.php?t=166&highlight=corporation

[Born Free]

Hi, Miss Taken. I have enjoyed reading your posts. I often wonder what it might be like being a member in another country. Of course I live in Utard but I found the church was just the same when I lived in Michigan.

As for the church being "corporate" - read the thread "Concerned About Joining Now...." link follows. There are references regarding the church as a corporate organization that are right smack on, IMNSHO.

http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/showthread.php?t=166&highlight=corporation

silverfox,

I have a diagram on values and world views that offers an insight into the Mormon world view (and the many others on offer :) ), which may be interesting/of value to some in their jouney beyond Moism.

For me, it helped me get square away that priority values for most Mormons sit in values clusters 2, 3 and 4, of an 8 cluster set, so is FAR from the elevated, superiour functioning that Mormons are encouraged to see themselves at. All these clusters have the locus of control outside of self, whereas the 4 clusters following share internalised locus. That could be otherwise stated as people holding a Mormon world view are frequently happy to give control of their life away to someone/thing else, because they don't want the responsibility.

It also suggests that when people leave Moism, many are ready to make that transition of self-actualisation; of becoming resposible for their own life and functioning.

I currently have it in Word 2000 format on an A4 page. How might that be shared on forum?

Daryl