Find and Post Resources and Links here.

[pokatator]

Hey

I am wondering if we could start a "sticky" thread where we could keep a running list of books (with author, and maybe a short description), videos, internets links, and etc.?

We have these mentioned throughout the community forum, but not in one place. It would be kind of like the Acronym list.

But I would like to suggest that every once in awhile that messages be deleted after the data is gathered and compiled in the first message as a comprehensive current reference of resources.

This is just a thought and I don't know how to set it up or even maintain it. Anyone have any similar ideas or suggestions?

Thanx, Randy

[free thinker]

Hey

I am wondering if we could start a "sticky" thread where we could keep a running list of books (with author, and maybe a short description), videos, internets links, and etc.?

We have these mentioned throughout the community forum, but not in one place. It would be kind of like the Acronym list.

But I would like to suggest that every once in awhile that messages be deleted after the data is gathered and compiled in the first message as a comprehensive current reference of resources.

This is just a thought and I don't know how to set it up or even maintain it. Anyone have any similar ideas or suggestions?

Thanx, Randy

Let me suggest two books!


An Insiders View of Mormon Origins by Grant Palmer

In Sacred Loneliness by Todd Compton

Free Thinker

[silverfox]

Your wish is my command! That's a very good suggestion. This thread is now "stuck". I have changed the title from "Resources" to "Find Resources and Links here".

To help, if you come across any links or resources in old or new threads, please copy and paste them as a reply here. I will then check it on a regular basis and condense the information. When adding a new link please include a brief description of what the link supports or what kind of info it provides. As an example, in the title line enter something like "Link to info on Blood Atonement (or whatever the subject may be)

Thanks!

[silverfox]

Copied and Pasted -

The press release below is about a book a local friend just got published last week. The book deals with sexual abuse and related issues and should be of interest to many Mormons and former Mormons whose lives have been affected similarly. I think it took a great deal of courage to write the book.

Raised a Mormon in the rocky mountains of Provo, Utah, Diana Kline porvides a harrowing portrayal of her life as a woman who grew up within the confines of a strict religious system that demanded perfection at all costs. Diana uses her gift of music as as refuge in which to gather strength through the disturbing trauma she experiences, including an eating disorder, depression, suicide attempts, a dissociative disorder, and post traumatic stress disorder. Throughout the process of recovery, she finds the courage to leave the Mormon church behind forever. This intriguing memoir of music, abuse, Mormonism, sexuality, and mental illness is sure to reach out to those suffering from similar lights. "Woman Redeemed" is a moving account of one woman's determination to never give up, despite insurmountable odds.

**Note: The book is available through authorhouse.com. Click here to find the book listed on their site.

Jeff

[tjohnson]

Hey

I am wondering if we could start a "sticky" thread where we could keep a running list of books (with author, and maybe a short description), videos, internets links, and etc.?

We have these mentioned throughout the community forum, but not in one place. It would be kind of like the Acronym list.

But I would like to suggest that every once in awhile that messages be deleted after the data is gathered and compiled in the first message as a comprehensive current reference of resources.

This is just a thought and I don't know how to set it up or even maintain it. Anyone have any similar ideas or suggestions?

Thanx, Randy

Funny you should mention this... I am currently working on a website that will be just a "portal" to information about the LDS church. It's in a very crude form now, but I will be working on it over the next few weeks to improve the look and number of links, etc.

http://www.postlds.org

If you have suggestions of "subjects" you would like to see, please let me know. :D

[miss taken]

Can I add this one. I have been checking on this guys site for a while. I think it's fair that he has his say, and I would love to hear anyone's response to his refutations of critics.

http://www.jefflindsay.com/myturn.shtml

[silverfox]

Can I add this one. I have been checking on this guys site for a while. I think it's fair that he has his say, and I would love to hear anyone's response to his refutations of critics.

http://www.jefflindsay.com/myturn.shtml

Let's try to keep this thread as a source to provide links and other info. If discussion is needed regarding a specific site may I suggest creating a new thread? That will help keep the focus of this sticky thread for how it is intended. Thanks! :)

[miss taken]

Point taken Silverfox. I just thought the site offered a good critique, and was a good balance. Appreciate that its relative merits should be discussed elsewhere!!!

[silverfox]

Point taken Silverfox. I just thought the site offered a good critique, and was a good balance. Appreciate that its relative merits should be discussed elsewhere!!!

I can't wait to check it out. I'm always excited to find new sites and angles and views! Why is there never enough T I M E??????? :Crazy:

[bzcutah]

I have had this website going for about 4 years.
Behind Zion Curtain (http://behindzioncurtain.com)

It has had many changes over the years. I have dulled it down a lot, and now I just post things that help me cope with my brother's death.

[silverfox]

Can I add this one. I have been checking on this guys site for a while. I think it's fair that he has his say, and I would love to hear anyone's response to his refutations of critics.

http://www.jefflindsay.com/myturn.shtml

Okay I checked out this link. Just seems like another typical TBM response with a somewhat missionary feel to it. Compare this site to the "20 Truths of Mormonism"

I have issues with questions being answered with questions. Of course, his assumption is that the church is true while trying to communicate with those who don't. So there is no "connection" there...no startling revelations or proof that the church is true, only interpretation and speculation.

I don't come away from his site wondering if the church really is true. Not after all the research I've done. I wonder what his response would be to the 20 Truths' key points?

[stu4491]

Silverfox, Tell me where to find the "20 Truths of Mormanism" you are referring to. Stewart


Okay I checked out this link. Just seems like another typical TBM response with a somewhat missionary feel to it. Compare this site to the "20 Truths of Mormonism"

I have issues with questions being answered with questions. Of course, his assumption is that the church is true while trying to communicate with those who don't. So there is no "connection" there...no startling revelations or proof that the church is true, only interpretation and speculation.

I don't come away from his site wondering if the church really is true. Not after all the research I've done. I wonder what his response would be to the 20 Truths' key points?

[silverfox]

Silverfox, Tell me where to find the "20 Truths of Mormanism" you are referring to. Stewart

They are here....

http://trialsofascension.net/mormon.html

I love this site! The owner of the site visited Post Mo a while back and ensured us it would be around for a while. YAY! I like that it presents both the skeptical view and also the apologists view.

[tjohnson]

They are here....

http://trialsofascension.net/mormon.html

I love this site! The owner of the site visited Post Mo a while back and ensured us it would be around for a while. YAY! I like that it presents both the skeptical view and also the apologists view.

You can also go to www.20truths.org and it will redirect you to that same site. I setup the domain because it was easier to remember and refer people that way. :D

[silverfox]

You can also go to www.20truths.org and it will redirect you to that same site. I setup the domain because it was easier to remember and refer people that way. :D

Oooooo thanks! That is easier to remember!

[formermormon]

OK, so I'm new to this whole thing and not especially good at the navigation. Anyway, this seems like a good place to alert people to my online shop: "Former Mormon Emporium". I have T-shirts mocking the seer stones, lots of "apostate" gear, and coffee mugs that gently mock D&C89.

Check it out: www.cafepress.com/formermormon

I mostly cracked myself up doing it. The stuff is in the spirit of in-group exes who think mo jokes are still funny. It's not "anti" - something that also bugs me. If you have an upcoming baby shower, or just a visit to the family, you couldn't say it any clearer than if you showed up with "apostate" across your chest.

[darkslider]

A few questions.

1. Is this list for resources in general (pertaining to LDS religion)?

2. Is this for online sites as well?

With those things in mind. . . I will have to edit this post later to include all the links I have. The Apochripha, Journal of Discourses, The Temple Endowment (pre/post 1990). I have more.

For now, http://www.josephlied.com is a site I found approximatly 4 years after leaving the Church.

[helemon]

Can I add this one. I have been checking on this guys site for a while. I think it's fair that he has his say, and I would love to hear anyone's response to his refutations of critics.

http://www.jefflindsay.com/myturn.shtml

the alt.religion.mormon ng has discussed his site a few times and provides good refutations of his "refutations"

[miss taken]

the alt.religion.mormon ng has discussed his site a few times and provides good refutations of his "refutations"


Thanks Helemon, will check out the site you referred to.

Mary

[silverfox]

A few questions.

1. Is this list for resources in general (pertaining to LDS religion)?

2. Is this for online sites as well?

With those things in mind. . . I will have to edit this post later to include all the links I have. The Apochripha, Journal of Discourses, The Temple Endowment (pre/post 1990). I have more.

For now, http://www.josephlied.com is a site I found approximatly 4 years after leaving the Church.

The purpose of this thread is to post any links that are LDS oriented and in support of the concerns and issues this forum is based on.

Josephlied.com fits perfectly. The other links you mention sound interesting.

No spam, please.

[keene maverick]

http://journals.mormonfundamentalism.org/

The Journal of Discourses. Wonderful read. Unless you're mormon, that is.

[helemon]

Ok so its not about mormons but still very funny

http://www.bettybowers.com/

[flotsam]

And of course, the premier humor source for Mormons: The Sugar Beet.

www.thesugarbeet.com

[helemon]

http://thedigitalvoice.com/enigma/index.htm
http://olivercowdery.com/ocowdery.htm

[helemon]

Let me suggest two books!


An Insiders View of Mormon Origins by Grant Palmer

In Sacred Loneliness by Todd Compton

Free Thinker

Let's not forget:
No man knows my history by Fawn Brodie

[helemon]

I have read over chapters of this book. The best part is the photograph of the newspaper that shows that Sydney Rigdon and Samuel Spaulding did live near each other since both of their names are on a list of people who have mail waiting for them at the post office. Mormon apologists like to claim that there is no way the Spaulding manuscript could have been obtained by early leaders of the church because they never lived near Spaulding while he was alive. This book makes a rather good case for how Spauldings manuscript was transformed into the BoM.
http://thedigitalvoice.com/enigma/enigma1.htm

[free thinker]

Let's not forget:
No man knows my history by Fawn Brodie

Yes indeed, No Man Knows My History. What a book. It is no wonder that it was vehemently fought by the church when it came out in 1945. I found the book to be very inciteful. Someone else on this site said in response to apologist attacks on the book, " if 10% of it is true, then that would be enough for me to leave the church forever". I agree with this sentiment.

I think the part at the end, a journal entry of a man to whom JS wrote, requesting that his daughter meet him in a corn field, is quite revealing. I guess JS was going to teach her some gospel principle, by using the corn field as an object lesson. Or maybe he had something else in mind!!

Also, I never knew Fawn Brodie was David O Mckay's neice.

Free Thinker

[helemon]

Unsure what religion fits your current spiritual world view? Try the Belief-O-Matic.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html?rnd=84

[miss taken]

Copied and pasted from separate thread!


A good friend in the USA has just sent me this link of a talk given at General Conference, and the same version, edited for the Ensign.

Huh!!!!! (makes for an interesting read though!!)

http://www.lds-mormon.com/poelman.shtmlMary

[helemon]

Lots of good info in the article:
http://www.affirmation.org/learning/prelude.asp

[silverfox]

Lots of good info in the article:
http://www.affirmation.org/learning/prelude.asp

Wow - interesting. I really enjoyed "An Open Letter to the LDS Public Affairs Department in Hawaii"

I hope to have time to read more later today.

[helemon]

http://www.history.rochester.edu/canal/map/1899boat.jpg
http://www.history.rochester.edu/canal/map/1899boat.jpg

[helemon]

Some good questions:
1. If Gods are individuals who have passed through mortality and have progressed to Godhood, how has one person of the Trinity (the Holy Spirit) attained Godhood without getting a body? (See Acts 5:3,4)

2. If Gods are individuals who have passed through an earth life to attain Godhood, how is it that one person of the Trinity (Jesus Christ) was God before He received a body or passed through earth life? (Matt. 1:23 and Hebrews 10:5)

3. If the Book of Mormon really contains the fullness of the Gospel, why does it not teach the doctrine of “eternal progression”? (See D&C 20:8,9)

4. God said, “Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is no God; I know not any”. How can there be Gods who are Elohim’s ancestors? Surely an all-knowing God would know this and wouldn’t speak falsehoods. (See Isa. 44:8 and Journal of Discourses Vol. 1, pg. 123)

5. How can any men ever become Gods when the Bible says, “Before me there was no god formed, neither shall there be after me”? (Isaiah 43:10)

6. If Adam is the “only God with whom we have to do”, did Adam create himself? (Journal of Discourses Vol. 1, pg. 50, 51)

7. Joseph Smith stated that without the ordinances and authority of the priesthood no man can see the face of God and live (D & C 84:21, 22). He also said that he saw God in 1820 (Joseph Smith 2:17). Joseph Smith, however, never received any priesthood until 1829 (D&C 13). How did he see God and survive? In which was he in error: his revelation in D & C 84:21, 22 or his experience in the grove?

8. If a spirit is a being without a body (See Luke 24:39), why do Mormons teach that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones? (See John 4:24)

9. If the Father is Elohim and Jesus is Jehovah (as the Mormons teach), how does a Mormon explain Deuteronomy 6:4, which in the Hebrew says, “Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah”?

10. If the Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the Gospel, why doesn’t it teach that God was once a man?

11. If Mormonism is the restored church, which is based upon the Bible, why are Mormon leaders so quick to state that the Bible is “translated wrong” when faced with some conflict between the Bible and Mormonism?

12. If Jesus was conceived as a result of a physical union between God and Mary, how was Jesus born of a virgin? (Journal of Discourses Vol. 1, page 50)

13. Why did Christ not return in 1891 as Joseph Smith predicted? (History of the Church, Vol. 2 page 182).

14. Journal of Discourses Vol. 2, page 210 says Jesus was being married to Mary and Martha in Cana. Why then was he INVITED to his own wedding? (John 2:1,2)

15. Why does the Mormon church teach that there is no eternal hell when the Book of Mormon teaches that there is? (I Nephi 14:3, II Ne. 9:16;28: 21-23, Mosiah 3:25, Alma 34:35, Heleman 6:28 and 3:25,26).

16. How can Mormons teach that the repentant thief was not saved when the Book of Mormon states that Paradise is where the righteous go? (Luke 23:43, Alma 40:12, 16)

17. How did Nephi with a few men on a new continent build a temple like Solomon’s while Solomon needed 163,300 workmen and seven years to build his temple? (See I Kings 5:13-18 and II Nephi 5:15-17)

18. If the book of Mormon is true, why hasn’t a valid geography been established for the book?

19. Why was Joseph Smith still preaching against polygamy in October 1843 after he got his revelation in July 1843 commanding the practice of polygamy? (D & C 132; and History of the Church Vol. 6, page 46, or Teachings of the Prophet, page 324)

20. If Lehi left Jerusalem before 600 B.C., how did he learn about synagogues? (See II Nephi 26:26)

21. If the Book of Mormon is true, why do Indians fail to become white when they become Mormons? (II Nephi 30:6 – prior to 1981 revision)

22. What kind of chariots did the Nephites have in 90 B.C. some 1500 years before the introduction of the wheel on the Western Hemisphere? (Alma 18:9)

23. How do Mormons account for the word “church” in the Book of Mormon, about 600 B.C., which was centuries before the beginning of the Church on the day of Pentecost? (I Nephi 4:26)

24. How do Mormons account for the italicized words in the King James Version (indicating their absence in the Hebrew and Greek) being found in the Book of Mormon? (A comparison of Mosiah 14 and Isaiah 53 will provide at least 13 examples)

25. How did the French word “adieu” get into the Book of Mormon? (Jacob 7:27)

26. Was it right or wrong for Solomon to have many wives? (See Jacob 2:24; D & C 132:38,39) Which is it?

27. If polygamy was a provision for increasing population rapidly, why did God give Adam only one wife?

28. D&C 129:4, 5 says, “When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you. If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.” How can this test distinguish between an angel of God and a Jehovah’s Witness missionary…or a Mormon Elder.

29. If Joseph Smith was a true prophet, why did he fail to realize that “Elias” is the N.T. form of the name “Elijah”? (D & C 110:12,13 and 1 Kings 17:1 and James 5:17) How could Elijah (Elias) have appeared to Joseph Smith in the Kirkland Temple as two different people?

30. If children have no sins until they are eight years old, why are they baptized at age eight to wash away non-existent sins? (See Moroni 8:8)

31. How could the Garden of Eden have been in Missouri when the Pearl of Great Price declares that it was in the vicinity of Assyria and had the Euphrates and Hiddekel Rivers in it? (See P of GP Moses 3:14 and D&C 116 and 117; Genesis 2:8-15)

32. Brigham Young said, “The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy”. (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269) Why did the Mormons yield to the pressure of the government and stop practicing polygamy?

33. Heber C. Kimball stated, “We are th people of Deseret, she shall be no more Utah: we will have our own name”. Why did this prophecy fail? (J of D. Vol. 5, page 161)

34. How did Joseph Smith carry home the golden plates of the Book of Mormon, and how did the witnesses lift them so easily? (They weighted about 230 lbs. Gold, with a density of 19.3 weighs 1204.7 lbs. Per cubic foot. The plates were 7” x 8” by about 6”. See Articles of Faith, by Talmage, page 262, 34th Ed.)

35. When Christ died, did darkness cover the land for three days of for three hours? (See Luke 23:44 and III Nephi 8:19, 23)

36. If the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, why have the Mormons changed it? (There have been over 3,000 changes in the Book of Mormon, exclusive of punctuation changes)

37. If God speaks through a prophet, why do Mormons vote on whether or not to receive and authorize it?

38. It has been established that the “Sensen” manuscript was simply a common Egyptian burial papyrus. Why do the Mormons still accept the Book of Abraham which was translated from that manuscript?

39. Why is it that no other writings have been found in the language of “Reformed Egyptian”, the supposed language of the Book of Mormon plates? Is there evidence that such a language really existed?

40. Joseph Smith said that there are men living on the moon who dress like Quakers and live to be nearly 1000 years old. Since he was wrong about the moon, is it safe to trust him regarding the way to heaven? (See The Young Woman’s Journal, Vol 3, pages 263, 264.)

41. Why do Mormons not study Hebrew and Greek so that they can intelligently discuss the accuracy of the translation of the Bible?

42. Joseph Smith prepared fourteen Articles of Faith. Why has the original No. 11 been omitted?

43. According to Hebrews 7:24, the Melchizedek Priesthood is not transferable. Why do Mormons pass it from one to another?

44. If Mormonism came as a revelation from God, why are the Mormon Temple Oaths almost identical to the oaths of the Masonic Lodge?

45. Why did the Nauvoo House not stand forever and ever? (D&C 124:56-60)

46. If genealogies are important, why does the New Testament tell Christians to avoid them? (I Timothy 1:4; Titus 3:9)

47. The Bible says, “The blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth from all sin”. Why did Brigham Young say that there are some sins which can be atoned for only by the shedding of ones own blood.

48. God rejected the fig leaf aprons which Adam and Eve made. Why do Mormons memorialize the fall by using fig leaf aprons? (Gen. 3:21)

49. Why do Mormons insist that Ezekiel 37:15-22 is about two books instead of about two kingdoms as god Himself explained in verse 22?

50. If Acts 3:20, 21 is a prophecy about the restoration of Mormonism, why didn’t Jesus return in 1830?

51. Revelation 14:6,7 is part of the body of prophecy about the future Great Tribulation. How could that passage have been fulfilled by Moroni in 1830?

52. In light of Ezekiel 28:13-15 and Hebrews 1:5, how can Satan and Jesus be brothers (as the Mormons teach)? (note: Satan was created)

53. If no person ever receives the Holy Spirit before baptism or without the laying on of hands, how does a Mormon explain the case of Cornelius? (See Acts 10:44-47)

54. If baptism for the dead was a Christian ceremony, why did Paul use the pronoun “they” rather than “we” or “ye”? Why did he exclude himself and other Christians when referring to it? (I Cor. 15:29)

55. Since the Bible says that a Bishop should be the husband of one wife, how can Mormons claim that polygamy is proper for New Testament Christians? (I Timothy 3:2)

56. Why does the Mormon church teach that the broad way leads to the Terrestrial Heaven when Jesus taught that it leads to destruction? (Matthew 7:13, 14)

[helemon]

By Fubeca: http://www.exmormon.org/boards/w-agora/index.php?site=exmobb&bn=exmobb_recovery

1. If by some wild stretch of the imagination the church wasn't true, how would you know it? Or, how should all those people in other religions realize that their church's aren't true and go searching for another? (it has to be more than "the spirit" because people in other religions report feeling the same depth of religions feeling and closeness to God that LDS do)

2. If by some wild stretch of the imagination the church wasn't true, would you want to know it? (if "no" then end the discussion right there - there's no point)

3. Go back in time and think about your ancestors (or yourself) who at one point joined the church. Was it wrong of them to deny the promises they made to the church of their birth and leave their families who didn't join the church? Were they betraying their original covenants and their families? Why or why not?

4. In any given situation, would you rather know the truth or be blissfully naive as long as you were happy? Where does the truth rate in your heirarchy of values?

5. Is omitting the truth OK? What's better, to tell the truth and let people choose for themselves how to evaluate it or omitting the truth if there's a chance that some people might be "led astray" because of it? In other words, does the end justify the means? According to LDS teachings, whose plan of salvation basically forced everyone to choose the right? Who thought it was better to allow people to choose even if that meant some people might "fall?"

6. Do you think it's important to have faith in the unprovable? What the difference between having faith in the unprovable and believing in things that can be proven false?

7. What do you think qualifies as church doctrine?

8. What is is called when a church changes doctrine, alters sacred ordinances and its leaders behave immorally? Are there any exceptions?

9. How much evidence does there need to be to have faith in something? Isn't a "witness of the spirit" still evidence?

10. Is science always wrong if it contradicts our belief but right if it's going to save our life? When can we know or have confidence in science? What would Galileo have said?

[lurch]

Suddenly Strangers (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1593301111/qid=1122107895/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-4232278-2094328?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) is a great book on how a TBM that recognizes truth suddenly becomes a stranger to his or her former self and to other TBM family members. Good stuff.

[silverfox]

Suddenly Strangers (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1593301111/qid=1122107895/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-4232278-2094328?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) is a great book on how a TBM that recognizes truth suddenly becomes a stranger to his or her former self and to other TBM family members. Good stuff.

I was fascinated reading the reviews. I've been trying to stay away from constantly reading about Mo'ism (it tends to consume me) but this book really has be intrigued. I think I may just have to pick up a copy. Once done, I will donate to my local library. So others have a chance to read it. (I live in a small town - very limited choice)

[helemon]

Excellent list of 26 reasons why this individual no longer believes in the church:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/tolworthy/atozelph/

[helemon]

http://home.comcast.net/~zarahemla/BOA/BOA_TOC.html

[helemon]

http://home.teleport.com/~packham/

[helemon]

http://www.realmormonhistory.com/

[helemon]

http://www.solomonspalding.com

[helemon]

Some good questions:
From: http://www.contenderministries.org/mormonism/questions.php

[helemon]

http://www.exmormon.org

[helemon]

http://www.latterdaylampoon.com

[helemon]

http://www.studyitout.com/directory/main.html

[helemon]

http://www.mormonnomore.com/

Good information on how to resign.

[helemon]

http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon109.html
Good article. Primarily about RfM but still good. Much of the statements apply to this board as well.

[helemon]

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/nauvooexpositor.htm
We believe that all men, professing to be the ministers of God, should keep steadily in view, the honor and glory of God, the salvation of souls, and the amelioration of man's condition: and among their cardinal virtues ought to be found those of faith, hope, virtue and charity; but with Joseph Smith, and many other official characters in the Church, they are words without any meanings attached-worn as ornaments; exotics nurtured for display; virtues which, throwing aside the existence of a God, the peace, happiness, welfare, and good order of society, require that they should be preserved pure, immaculate and uncorroded.

We most solemnly and sincerely declare, God this Day being witness of the truth and sincerity of our designs and statements, that happy will it be with those who examine and scan Joseph Smith's pretensions to righteousness; and take counsel of human affairs, and of the experience of times gone by. Do not yield up tranquilly a superiority to that man which the reasonableness of past events, and the laws of our country declare to be pernicious and diabolical. We hope many items of doctrine, as now taught, some of which, however, are taught secretly, and denied openly, (which we know positively is the case,)and others publicly, considerate men will treat with contempt; for we declare them heretical and damnable in their influence, though they find many devotees. How shall he, who had drank of the poisonous draft, teach virtue? In the stead thereof, when the criminal ought to plead guilty to the court, the court is obliged to plead guilty to the criminal. We appeal to humanity and ask, what shall we do? Shall we lie supinely and suffer ourselves to be metamorphosed into beasts by the Syren tongue? We amswer that our country and our God require that we should rectify the tree. We have called upon him to repent, and as soon as he shewed fruits meet for repentance, we stood ready to seize him by the hand of fellowship, and throw around him the mantle of protection; for it is the salvation of souls we desire, and not our own aggrandizement.

We are earnestly seeking to explode the vicious principles of Joseph Smith, and those who practice the same abominations and whoredoms; which we verily know are not accordant and consonant with the principles of Jesus Christ and the Apostles; and for that purpose, and with that end in view, with an eye single to the glory of God, we have dared to gird on the armor, and with God at our head, we most solemnly and sincerely declare that the sword of truth shall not depart from the thigh, nor the buckler from the arm, until we can enjoy those glorious privileges which nature's God and our country's laws have guarantied to us-freedom of speech, the liberty of the press, and the right to worship God as seemeth us good.-We are aware, however, that we are hazarding every earthly blessing, particularly property,and probably life itself, in striking this blow at tyranny and oppresion: yet notwithstanding we most solemnly declare that no man, or set of men combined, shall, with impunity, violate obligations as sacred as many which have been violated unless reason, justice and virtue have become ashamed and sought the haunts of the grave, though our lives be the forfeiture.

[helemon]

www.stay-lds.com
edit: upon closer examination I realized this is actually a spoof site. I thought at first it was actually for people wanting to stay in the church. :duh

[helemon]

http://www.latterdaylampoon.com

This site has been moved to:
http://www.salamandersociety.com/

Apparently National Lampoon and the Harvard Lampoon have claimed rights to the english word Lampoon. Or someone has pulled a fast one on the administrators.

[helemon]

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/robert_price/beyond_born_again/index.shtml

[helemon]

Kennewick Man is often brought up by Apologists of the church as an example of a skeleton that appears in some respects to resemble European bone structure more than typical Native American bone structure. They convienently ignore the fact that the skeleton has been dated to having lived at least 4000 years ago. Here are some links to radio carbon and DNA work that has been done on the skeletal remains.
http://www.cr.nps.gov/archeology/kennewick/c14memo.htm
All the dates obtained predate 6000 BP and are clearly pre-Columbian. Two of the dates match closely the C14 date obtained in 1996 on another bone fragment believed to be from the skeleton.

http://www.cr.nps.gov/archeology/kennewick/#dna
Result of DNA testing of Kennewick man teeth.
characteristic of Native American haplogroup D

http://www.cr.nps.gov/archeology/kennewick/
http://www.washington.edu/burkemuseum/kman/default.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3460773.stm

[helemon]

http://www.lds-mormon.com/seerstn.shtml

[helemon]

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mmormon.html

[helemon]

http://landing.ancestry.com/obituary/free.aspx?signin=old&o_xid=12926&o_lid=12926&sourcecode=12926

[helemon]

http://www.saintswithouthalos.com/

The purpose of this site is to present the life and times of Joseph Smith as honestly as I can using commonly accepted historical methods.

[helemon]

From Kevin on RfM

These are several key areas that the evidence comes from.

1.Paleontology: fossil record
2.Morphology: anatomical relationships between species
3.Biogeography: geographic distribution of species
4.Genetics: genetic changes over multiple generations
5.Embryology: relationships between species in during embryonic development

The adaptations in insects, bacteria, and viruses are much easier to observe because of the number of generations observed in such a short amount of time. A case in point are months in London over the course of a relatively few years. During times when soot was ever present months became the color of the soot through the pressures of natural selection over many generations. When coal was no longer burned, evolutionary pressures selected months that were more the color of the background without the soot present.

The genetic similarities between all living things are striking. Even comparing human DNA to a plant DNA yields a high percentage of similarity. The percentage of the genetic code that accounts for the differences among species is remarkably small and amounts to as little as 2-5 % when comparing chimpanzees to humans. Although there are differences, all cells have similar modes of operation. This is indicative of a similar starting point.

The supposed huge gaps in the fossil record just do not exist. Furthermore, the sequentially changing fossils are layered in the geological record in a very orderly and systematic manner as the changes slowly took place over time.

http://books.nap.edu/html/creationism/evidence.html

What is more small changes in DNA can make seemingly large changes in morphology. The difference between wolves and domesticated dogs can seem quite large superficially. However, genetically dogs and wolves are almost identical.

http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/data/2002/01/01/html/ft_20020101.1.html

The following example is further evidence that changes can actually happen rather quickly and create large differences in outward appearance. Dmitri Belyaev selectively bred foxes to become tame. In just a few generations not only were the foxes tame but some of them had floppy ears and short tails.

http://www.ualberta.ca/~jzgurski/dog.htm

Any one of these factors taken alone makes an interesting but not necessarily a rock solid case. All of them taken together strongly indicate that evolution is the key to our existence on this planet.

Some apologists argue that the fossils are from pieces of other planets. If that is the case, why are the fossils laid down in such a nice sequence and why do they lead from the simplest single celled organisms to the most complex forms of life that we have today?

Additional links.

http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoEvidence.html

http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_3.htm

[helemon]

http://www.lds-mormon.com/compare.shtml

[helemon]

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/kersey_graves/16/index.shtml
More than twenty claims of this kind -- claims of beings invested with divine honor (deified) -- have come forward and presented themselves at the bar of the world with their credentials, to contest the verdict of Christendom, in having proclaimed Jesus Christ, "the only son, and sent of God:" twenty Messiahs, Saviors, and Sons of God, according to history or tradition, have, in past times, descended from heaven, and taken upon themselves the form of men, clothing themselves with human flesh, and furnishing incontestable evidence of a divine origin, by various miracles, marvelous works, and superlative virtues; and finally these twenty Jesus Christs (accepting their character for the name) laid the foundation for the salvation of the world, and ascended back to heaven.

1. Chrishna of Hindostan.
2. Budha Sakia of India.
3. Salivahana of Bermuda.
4. Zulis, or Zhule, also Osiris and Orus, of Egypt.
5. Odin of the Scaudinavians.
6. Crite of Chaldea.
7. Zoroaster and Mithra of Persia.
8. Baal and Taut, "the only Begotten of God," of Phenicia.
9. Indra of Thibet.
10. Bali of Afghanistan.
11. Jao of Nepaul.
12. Wittoba of the Bilingonese.
13. Thammuz of Syria.
14. Atys of Phrygia.
15. Xaniolxis of Thrace.
16. Zoar of the Bonzes.
17. Adad of Assyria.
18. Deva Tat, and Sammonocadam of Siam.
19. Alcides of Thebes.
20. Mikado of the Sintoos.
21. Beddru of Japan.
22. Hesus or Eros, and Bremrillah, of the Druids.
23. Thor, son of Odin, of the Gauls.
24. Cadmus of Greece.
25. Hil and Feta of the Mandaites.
26. Gentaut and Quexalcote of Mexico.
27. Universal Monarch of the Sibyls.
28. Ischy of the Island of Formosa.
29. Divine Teacher of Plato.
30. Holy One of Xaca.
31. Fohi and Tien of China.
32. Adonis, son of the virgin Io of Greece.
33. IxiOn and Quirinus of Rome.
34. Prometheus of Caucasus.
35. Mohamud, or Mahomet, of Arabia.

These have all received divine honors, have nearly all been worshiped as Gods, or sons of God; were mostly incarnated as Christs, Saviors, Messiahs, or Mediators; not a few of them were reputedly born of virgins; some of them filling a character almost identical with that ascribed by the Christian's bible to Jesus Christ; many of them, like him, are reported to have been crucified; and all of them, taken together, furnish a prototype and parallel for nearly every important incident and wonder-inciting miracle, doctrine and precept recorded in the New Testament, of the Christian's Savior. Surely, with so many Saviors the world cannot, or should not, be lost.

[helemon]

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/index.html

[helemon]

From Craig Paxton on RfM:


******** Important Thoughts ************


President Hugh B. Brown:

I hope that you will develop the questing spirit. Be unafraid of new ideas for they are the stepping stones of progress. You will of course respect the opinions of others but be unafraid to dissent if you are informed. Now I have mentioned freedom to express your thoughts, but I caution you that your thoughts and expressions must meet competition in the marketplace of thought, and in that competition truth will emerge triumphant. Only error needs to fear freedom of expression. Seek the truth in all fields, and in that search you will need at least three virtues: courage, zest and modesty. The ancients put that thought in the form of a prayer. They said, “From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth, from the laziness that is content with half-truth, from the arrogance that thinks it has all truth – O God of truth, deliver us. (speech given at BYU, 1958)

************************************************** **********

For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope."
-- Thomas Edison
************************************************** **********

"Faith can do a lot of things for us. Faith can help us through bad times in life, and help us to go on living. But one thing faith cannot do is alter facts. But that is what the church asks its members to do. It asks us to believe in the concept that faith can alter facts---facts of history, facts of science, facts of time and space. If facts of history, science, etc., contradict our faith, the church expects us to ignore or deny facts and live by faith, or other words, to suspend disbelief." --- Randy Jordan

************************************************** **********

President Joseph Fielding Smith (President of LDS Church in the early 1970's) stated:

"Mormonism must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a Prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead people, then he should be exposed, his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false..." ("Doctrines of Salvation," vol. 1 pp 188-189.)

************************************************** **********

" 'The Book of Mormon' must be either true or false. If true, it is one of the most important messages ever sent from God... If false, it is one of the most cunning, wicked, bold, deep-laid impositions ever palmed upon the world, calculated to deceive and ruin millions... The nature of the "Book of Mormon" is such, that if true, no one can possibly be saved and reject it; If false, no one can possibly be saved and receive it... If, after a rigid examination, it be found imposition, it should be extensively published to the world as such; the evidences and arguments on which the imposture was detected, should be clearly and logically stated, that those who have been sincerely yet unfortunately deceived, may perceive the nature of deception, and to be reclaimed, and that those who continue to publish the delusion may be exposed and silenced... by strong and powerful arguments - by evidences adduced from scripture and reason..." (Orson Pratt's Works, "Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon": Liverpool, 1851, pp. 1, 2.)

************************************************** **********



---But, my friend, the truth is a lie in Mormonism. As members, we must
forsake actual, verifiable fact, for completely unverifiable mythological
yarn. The truth teller is the apostate; the liar is the righteous. Facts
don't matter. If fact contradicts a blatantly false assertion, the fact is
wrong - even more, it is evil. It will kill you spiritually.

- Tal Bachman

************************************************** **********

The illusion of freedom is critical to the most complete forms of bondage

************************************************** **********

"Let me quote a very powerful comment from President Ezra Taft Benson, who said, “The Book of Mormon is the keystone of [our] testimony. Just as the arch crumbles if the keystone is removed, so does all the Church stand or fall with the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. The enemies of the Church understand this clearly. This is why they go to such great lengths to try to disprove the Book of Mormon, for if it can be discredited, the Prophet Joseph Smith goes with it. So does our claim to priesthood keys, and revelation, and the restored Church..."

"To hear someone so remarkable say something so tremendously bold, so overwhelming in its implications, that everything in the Church — everything — rises or falls on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and, by implication, the Prophet Joseph Smith’s account of how it came forth, can be a little breathtaking. It sounds like a “sudden death” proposition to me. Either the Book of Mormon is what the Prophet Joseph said it is or this Church and its founder are false, fraudulent, a deception from the first instance onward."

"Either Joseph Smith was the prophet he said he was, who, after seeing the Father and the Son, later beheld the angel Moroni, repeatedly heard counsel from his lips, eventually receiving at his hands a set of ancient gold plates which he then translated according to the gift and power of God—or else he did not. And if he did not, in the spirit of President Benson’s comment, he is not entitled to retain even the reputation of New England folk hero or well-meaning young man or writer of remarkable fiction. No, and he is not entitled to be considered a great teacher or a quintessential American prophet or the creator of great wisdom literature. If he lied about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, he is certainly none of those."

"I am suggesting that we make exactly that same kind of do-or-die, bold assertion about the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the divine origins of the Book of Mormon. We have to. Reason and rightness require it. Accept Joseph Smith as a prophet and the book as the miraculously revealed and revered word of the Lord it is or else consign both man and book to Hades for the devastating deception of it all, but let’s not have any bizarre middle ground about the wonderful contours of a young boy’s imagination or his remarkable facility for turning a literary phrase. That is an unacceptable position to take—morally, literarily, historically, or theologically."
- Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland, “True or False,” New Era, June 1995, Page 64 (Excerpted from a CES Symposium address given at Brigham Young University on August 9, 1994.)


************************************************** **********

Untestable hypotheses cannot yield knowledge.

************************************************** **********
It is not when truth is dirty, but when it is shallow, that the lover of knowledge is reluctant to step into its waters.

Friedrich Nietzsche
************************************************** **********
Three Questions to ask TBM’s

Can truth withstand scrutiny?

Would it be important to know if the church was not what it claimed to be?

How would you know if the church was not what it claimed to be?

************************************************** **********

The LDS Church engages in counterfeit truth; counterfeit in that the conclusions are predetermined. It is one massive exercise in circular reasoning, where every argument, every bit of evidence circles back around to support the foundational assumptions.

************************************************** **********

'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence'.

************************************************** **********

This is why "milk before meat", which in other circumstances is a sound pedagogical principle, is so important in the cult environment, and so abused. For educational purpose, "milk before meat" means that a building block process should be used to allow the eventual understanding of complex concepts that could not be understood at the beginning of the process. In the cult environment, milk before meat often means that novices must be mislead to get them in and committed to the cult before the real story can be told. It is clear that in this regard Mormonism is cult-like although as I have said elsewhere, in my view it is a "soft" cult – that is, something like a 6 or 7 on a scale of ten in a world where there are lots of 9s and tens.

Bob McCue

************************************************** **********
I truly believe that truth should be able to withstand scrutiny. Truth should be able to prevail over fiction. In fact, the more you investigate the truth, the more true it should turn out to be. I don’t believe we should be afraid of looking into questions we may have about our faith. And I do not believe God will condemn us for using our intellect, common sense, free agency, good judgment, etc. God cannot give us these abilities and not expect us to use them.
************************************************** **********
If the gospel is analyzed, weighed, or compared, it is on the scales of foreknowledge whereby it is known at the outset that the weight of evidence will prove its divinity. -- LaMar Peterson
************************************************** **********

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." C.S. Lewis

************************************************** **********

You will doubtless say, can it be possible that the minds of men, and men who possess the appearance of honesty, can be so strangely infatuated, as still to adhere to a system, after it had occasioned so much agitation, and so much disappointment. One reason which can be assigned for this, is, the adherents are generally inclined to consider the system so perfect, as to admit of no suspicion; and the confusion, and disappointment, are attributed to some other cause. Another, and principal reason is, delusion always effects the mind with a species of delirium, and this delirium arises in a degree, proportionate to the magnitude of the delusion. These men, upon other subjects, will converse like other men: but when their favorite system is brought into view, its inconsistencies and contradictions, are resolved into inexplicable mystery; and this will not only apply to the delusions now under consideration, but in my view, to every delusion from the highest to the lowest; and it matters not whether it carries the stamp of popularity, or its opposite.

- Ezra Booth, 1831 (First Mormon Apostate)
************************************************** **********
Mormon belief relies on not knowing the whole story ... Jarrod
************************************************** **********
Mormonism is black and white, all or none. It demands this. It is not a buffet of Christian beliefs. It is a nine course meal and what you or your kids don't eat will be stirred into a casserole and force fed to you.

************************************************** **********

D&C 88: 118
118 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.

When did "ALSO by faith" turn into "ONLY by faith?"

"If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed."
-J. Reuben Clark, D. Michael Quinn, J. Reuben Clark: The Church Years. Provo, Utah: Brigham Young University Press, 1983, p. 24.

If faith will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak.
-George A. Smith, 1871, Journal of Discourses, Vol 14, pg 216

I think full, free talk is frequently of great use; we want nothing secret, not underhanded, and I for one want no association with things that cannot be talked about and will not bear investigation.
-Pres. John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, vol 20, pg 264

“This book [the Book of Mormon] is entitled to the most thorough and impartial examination. Not only does the Book of Mormon merit such consideration, its claims, even demand the same.”
-Apostle James E. Talmage in ‘Articles of Faith’, page 273

"The man who cannot listen to an argument which opposes his views either has a weak position or is a weak defender of it. No opinion that cannot stand discussion or criticism is worth holding. And it has been wisely said that the man who knows only half of any question is worse off than the man who knows nothing of it. He is not only one-sided but his partisanship soon turns him into an intolerant and a fanatic. In general it is true that nothing which cannot stand up under discussion or criticism is worth defending"
- James E. Talmage, Improvement Era, January, 1920, p 204.

Let's not forget D&C 93:24 stating that truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were. Not just things as we wish they were, as they are faith promoting, as approved by the First Presidency, or as it supports our version of things.

“The Church will not dictate to any man, but it will counsel, it will persuade, it will urge, and it will expect loyalty from those who profess membership therein. The book of Revelation declares: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth" (Revelation 3:15-16).
They who are not for me are against me (2 Nephi 10:16). Each of us has to face the matter-either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.
- President Gordon B. Hinckley. "Loyalty," April Conference, 2003.
************************************************** **********
Faith. I was taught a brand of Mormonism that fit in a small box, metaphorically speaking. As long as my thought processes kept me inside that box I was fine. Over time, I was able to develop faith, and even came to feel very strongly that it was indeed the Church was what it claimed to be, Only True Church.

Later in life, the 'box' cracked open a bit, allowing me to see conflicting information. I did not know how to deal with the conflicts and contradictions so I ignored them.

As I learned more, the cognitive dissonance grew, to the point that my 'faith' could no longer be sustained. I had to justify my testimony with my faith. Additional information just would not allow me to see things as I once did.

How can praying, over and over, continually, possibly alter factual data that brings things into question?

************************************************** **********

"The Book of Mormon must submit to every test, literary criticism with the rest. Indeed, it must be submitted to every analysis and examination. It must submit to historical tests, to the tests of archaeological research and also to higher criticism." (B.H. Roberts, Senior President of the Seventy, The Improvement Era, 1911,


"To Latter-day Saints there can be no objection to the careful and critical study of the scriptures, ancient or modern, provided only that it be an honest study - a search for truth." (Apostle John A. Widtsoe, In Search of Truth, 1930,

************************************************** **********

Mormon leaders do not hesitate to tell incomplete or outright false versions of history in order to manipulate their followers at the emotional level. And I have no doubt that the vast majority of them believe that this is the “right” thing to do, in the sense that the people who follow them will be better off under the influence of their benevolent falsehoods than they would be having to deal with harsh reality. This has been the belief of most dictators from time immemorial. - Bob McCue

************************************************** **********

“The truth”, in the end, does not matter - only “the church”. But since the church’s very claims to authority are based on claims about “the truth”, how can it fight against access to it, without legitimately arousing the gravest suspicion? Without suggesting it could not be what it claims to be? - Tal Bachman
************************************************** **********
In the end, the Mormon "argument" is just a nothing, defending a nothing. Nibley said once, "people underestimate the capacity of things to disappear"; I think this is the classic statement on Mormonism - in a real sense, it doesn't actually exist outside of imagination. Mormon faith claims to be tied to physical reality (God has a body of flesh and bone, Joseph REALLY saw him, the plates were REAL, etc.), but at the same time denies it ("religious truth can't be known the way other truth can be", etc.). In the end, it is a nothing - only a chimera. - Tal Bachman
************************************************** *********

There is something heartbreakingly just in the relentless onslaught of reality. It smashes hopes and visions and commitments and longings. It cares nothing for dogma, for feelings, for professional reputations, for anyone saving face; and while its apprehension must always be characterized by provisionality and as-yet-uneliminated-error, overall our apprehension of that reality continues to grow, and to pass more and more tests as the decades and centuries roll on. And even with the constant effort to revise Mormon claims in order to save them from total incredibility, the process doesn't seem to be able to keep up to reality's tidal wave. - Tal Bachman

************************************************** **********

"Man, once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without a rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such persons, gullibility, which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason, and THE MIND BECOMES A WRECK". - Thomas Jefferson

************************************************** **********
"What claims does Mormonism make? And is it all it claims to be?". The answer to that last one, I think, is, only if 'A can equal '-A', and as far as I know, that is impossible.
-Tal-

************************************************** **********
"If death has always prevailed in the world, there was no fall of Adam which brought death to all forms of life. If Adam did not fall, there is no need for an atonement. If there was no atonement, there is no salvation, no resurrection, no eternal life, nothing in all of the glorious promises that the Lord has given us. If there is no salvation, there is no God. The fall affects man, all forms of life, and the earth itself”. - Bruce R. McConkie

************************************************** **********

There is a moral courage to searching for and admitting the truth, however bitter it may be -- and protecting certain beliefs from research or examination or the potential to be proven wrong is, to me, the coward's way out - Tragic Mind

************************************************** **********

[silverfox]

Helemon - thanks for all the great links!

[helemon]

http://www.refocus.org/postcult.html
After exiting a cult, an individual may experience a period of intense and often conflicting emotions. She or he may feel relief to be out of the group, but also may feel grief over the loss of positive elements in the cult, such as friendships, a sense of belonging or the feeling of personal worth generated by the group's stated ideals or mission. The emotional upheaval of the period is often characterized by "post- cult trauma syndrome":

* spontaneous crying
* sense of loss
* depression & suicidal thoughts
* fear that not obeying the cult's wishes will result in God's wrath or loss of salvation
* alienation from family, friends
* sense of isolation, loneliness due to being surrounded by people who have no basis for understanding cult life
* fear of evil spirits taking over one's life outside the cult
* scrupulosity, excessive rigidity about rules of minor importance
* panic disproportionate to one's circumstances
* fear of going insane
* confusion about right and wrong
* sexual conflicts
* unwarranted guilt

The period of exiting from a cult is usually a traumatic experience and, like any great change in a person's life, involves passing through stages of accommodation to the change:

* Disbelief/denial: "This can't be happening. It couldn't have been that bad."
* Anger/hostility: "How could they/I be so wrong?" (hate feelings)
* Self-pity/depression: "Why me? I can't do this."
* Fear/bargaining: "I don't know if I can live without my group. Maybe I can still associate with it on a limited basis, if I do what they want."
* Reassessment: "Maybe I was wrong about the group's being so wonderful."
* Accommodation/acceptance: "I can move beyond this experience and choose new directions for my life" or...
* Reinvolvement: "I think I will rejoin the group."

Passing through these stages is seldom a smooth progression. It is fairly typical to bounce back and forth between different stages. Not everyone achieves the stage of accommodation / acceptance. Some return to cult life. But for those who do not, the following may be experienced for a period of several months:

* flashbacks to cult life
* simplistic black-white thinking
* sense of unreality
* suggestibility, ie. automatic obedience responses to trigger-terms of the cult's loaded language or to innocent suggestions
* disassociation (spacing out)
* feeling "out of it"
* "Stockholm Syndrome": knee-jerk impulses to defend the cult when it is criticized, even if the cult hurt the person
* difficulty concentrating
* incapacity to make decisions
* hostility reactions, either toward anyone who criticizes the cult or toward the cult itself
* mental confusion
* low self-esteem
* dread of running into a current cult-member by mistake
* loss of a sense of how to carry out simple tasks
* dread of being cursed or condemned by the cult
* hang-overs of habitual cult behaviors like chanting
* difficulty managing time
* trouble holding down a job

Most of these symptoms subside as the victim mainstreams into everyday routines of normal life. In a small number of cases, the symptoms continue.

* This information is a composite list from the following sources: "Coming Out of Cults", by Margaret Thaler Singer, Psychology Today, Jan. 1979, P. 75; "Destructive Cults, Mind Control and Psychological Coercion""Destructive Cults, Mind Control and Psychological Coercion"", Positive Action Portland, Oregon, and ""Fact Sheet", Cult Hot-Line and Clinic, New York City.

[helemon]

http://www.refocus.org/charcult.html
Characteristics of a Destructive Cult:

1. Authoritarian pyramid structure with authority at the top

2. Charismatic or messianic leader(s) (Messianic meaning they either say they are God OR that they alone can interpret the scriptures the way God intended.....the leaders are self-appointed.)

3. Deception in recruitment and/or fund raising

4. Isolation from society -- not necessarily physical isolation like on some compound in Waco, but this can be psychological isolation -- the rest of the world is not saved, not Christian, not transformed (whatever) -- the only valid source of feedback and information is the group

5. Use of mind control techniques (we use Dr. Robert Jay Lifton's criteria from chapter 22 of his book "Thought Reform & the Psychology of Totalism" to compare whether the eight psychological and social methods he lists are present in the group at question)

Mileu Control: Control of the environment and communication within the environment

Mystical Manipulation: Seeks to promote specific patterns of behavior and emotion in such a way that it appears to have arisen spontaneously from within the environment, while it actually has been orchestrated totalist leaders claim to be agents chosen by God, history, or some supernatural force, to carry out the mystical imperative the "principles" (God-centered or otherwise) can be put forcibly and claimed exclusively, so that the cult and its beliefs become the only true path to salvation (or enlightenment)

Demand for Purity: The world becomes sharply divided into the pure and the impure, the absolutely good (the group/ideology) and the absolutely evil (everything outside the group) one must continually change or conform to the group "norm"; tendencies towards guilt and shame are used as emotional levers for the group's controlling and manipulative influences

Confession: Cultic confession is carried beyond its ordinary religious, legal and therapeutic expressions to the point of becoming a cult in itself sessions in which one confesses to one's sin are accompanied by patterns of criticism and self-criticism, generally transpiring within small groups with an active and dynamic thrust toward personal change

Sacred Science: The totalist milieu maintains an aura of sacredness around its basic doctrine or ideology, holding it as an ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence questioning or criticizing those basic assumptions is prohibited a reverence is demanded for the ideology/doctrine, the originators of the ideology/doctrine, the present bearers of the ideology/doctrine offers considerable security to young people because it greatly simplifies the world and answers a contemporary need to combine a sacred set of dogmatic principles with a claim to a science embodying the truth about human behavior and human psychology

Loading the Language: Words are given new meanings -- the outside world does not use the words or phrases in the same way -- it becomes a "group" word or phrase

Doctrine Over Person: If one questions the beliefs of the group or the leaders of the group, one is made to feel that there is something inherently wrong with them to even question -- it is always "turned around" on them and the questioner/criticizer is questioned rather than the questions answered directly the underlying assumption is that doctrine/ideology is ultimately more valid, true and real than any aspect of actual human character or human experience and one must subject one's experience to that "truth" the experience of contradiction can be immediately associated with guilt one is made to feel that doubts are reflections of one's own evil when doubt arises, conflicts become intense

Dispensing of Existence: Since the group has an absolute or totalist vision of truth, those who are not in the group are bound up in evil, are not enlightened, are not saved, and do not have the right to exist; impediments to legitimate being must be pushed away or destroyed one outside the group may always receive their right of existence by joining the group; fear manipulation -- if one leaves this group, one leaves God or loses their salvation/transformation, or something bad will happen to them; the group is the "elite", outsiders are "of the world", "evil", "unenlightened", etc

[helemon]

http://ldsinfobase.net/index.html

[helemon]

http://www.christiansoup.com/
Check to see what words were or were not familiar to Joseph Smith and what they meant back then.

[helemon]

"I knew a so-called intellectual who said the Church was trapped by its history. My response was that without that history we have nothing."

"That is the way I feel about it. Our whole strength rests on the validity of that vision. It either occurred or it did not occur. If it did not, then this work is a fraud."

Gordon B. Hinckley, “The Marvelous Foundation of Our Faith,” Ensign, Nov. 2002, 78
http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates$fn=default.htm$xhitlist_q= %5BRank+500%5D%28%5BField+general+conference%3Awit hout%20our%20history%5D%29$xhitlist_x=Advanced$xhi tlist_s=relevance-weight$xhitlist_d=Magazines/ensign$xhitlist_hc=%5BXML%5D%5Bkwic%2C0%5D$xhitlis t_xsl=xhitlist.xsl$xhitlist_vpc=first$xhitlist_sel =title%3Bpath%3Bcontent-type%3Bhome-title%3Bhit-context%3Bfield%3Azr%3Bfield%3ARef

[helemon]

http://www.candleinthedark.com/
Candle in the Dark is a place for philosophy, psychology, logic and the scientific method

[helemon]

From Deconstructor on RfM
I've talked with Grant Palmer on the phone. He is a sincere and honest person.

Just before he was dispellowshipped, he was on a talk radio program. This touching interview speaks volumes about the church and how it hurts people:

http://www.i4m.com/think/grant_palmer.htm

[helemon]

http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/conf/2005PetD.html
A Message Board Jam-Packed with Angry Apostates

I will pass over very quickly a message board that I like to monitor that is, in its way, a kind of wildlife preserve for secular anti-Mormons. Some of you are probably familiar with it. Although it is of unquestionable sociological and psychological interest, it offers little if anything of intellectual merit. What was once said of William Jennings Bryan could be said of even many of the star posters on this message board: "One could steer a schooner through any part of his argument and never scrape against a fact." Several, even, of the posters with the greatest intellectual pretensions on the board have consistently demonstrated themselves incapable of accurately summarizing Latter-day Saint positions and arguments, let alone of genuinely engaging them. It's hard not to think in this context of Groucho Marx: "From the moment I picked up your book until I laid it down," Groucho wrote to the novelist Sydney Perelman, "I was convulsed with laughter. Someday I intend to read it." Many on this particular message board seem to be of the same mentality as the academic who was asked whether he had read the new book by Professor Jones. "Read it?" he replied. "Why, I haven't even reviewed it yet!"

What the board does offer are displays of bravado, strutting, believers' arguments completely misunderstood and misrepresented, bold challenges hurled out to those who are barred from responding, and guffaws of triumph over enemies who are not permitted to reply. Dissent is rigidly excluded from this board, even as its denizens criticize the Church for its supposed "repressiveness." However, notwithstanding the rigorous exclusio
n of all troublesome dissent from their domain, the faith these posters have in their own unanswerably brilliant selves is oddly refreshing to see in atheists, whom you wouldn't expect to believe in any God at all.

Voltaire once explained that "My prayer to God is a very short one: 'Oh, Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' God," he said, "has granted it."

But this doesn't exhaust the pleasures of that message board. It is rife with personal abuse and bloodcurdling hostility, not uncommonly obscene, directed against people they don't know and haven't even met--against President Hinckley, Joseph Smith, the Brethren, the general membership of the Church, and even, somewhat obsessively, against one particular rather insignificant BYU professor. Ordinary members of the Church--Morgbots or Morons or Sheeple, in the jargon of the board--are routinely stereotyped as insane, tyrannical, cheap, bigoted, ill-mannered, irrational, sexually repressed, stupid, greedy, foolish, rude, poor tippers, sick, brain-dead, and uncultured. There was once even a thread--and I'm not making this up--devoted to discussing how Mormons noisily slurp their soup in restaurants. Posts frequently lament the stupidity and gullibility of Church leaders, neighbors, parents, spouses, siblings, and even offspring--who may be wholly unaware of the anonymous poster's secret double life of contemptuous disbelief. It is a splendid cyber illustration of the finger pointing and mocking found in the "great and spacious building" of 1 Nephi. Whenever the poisonous culture of the place is criticized, however, its defenders take refuge in the culture of victimhood, deploying a supposed need for therapeutic self-expression as their all-encompassing excuse.

Contemplating a depressing number of the posters on that board, I've thought to myself, "If this is what liberation from the Mormon 'myth' makes you--a vulgar and sometimes duplicitous crank, cackling with malice and spite--then I would prefer to spend the few brief years left to me (before I dissolve into the irreversible and never-ending oblivion many of the board's posters prophecy for me and all humankind) with people who haven't been liberated. I think of the apostates of Ammonihah, mocking Alma and Amulek in prison, "gnashing their teeth upon them, and spitting upon them, and saying: How shall we look when we are damned?"1 Surely the damned will not look much different than this.

But I'm troubled by the capacity even of far less malevolent message boards to supply a supportive sort of ersatz community as an alternative to the fellowship of the Saints, and I worry about what participation on even relatively benign boards does to some Latter-day Saint souls. I have in mind one frequent poster in particular, who claims simply to be doubting and troubled, but who in fact never misses an opportunity for a snide remark about his Church, in which he remains active, and its teachings. These teachings involve weighty matters of utmost import. Millions have placed their hopes in the gospel's message, and, if this were false, it would be tragic and unutterably sad. Perhaps the cynicism that this poster and many others cultivate is no more than a psychologically understandable defensive shell, a self-protective whistling past the graveyard of doubt. But, even so, it is a shell that will, I fear, block the Spirit. I am not optimistic about his long-term prospects, barring a fundamental shift in attitude (and, even less hopefully, perhaps in personality).

Characteristic of much secularizing anti-Mormon participation on the Web is a corrosive cynicism that, in my experience, will erode anything with which it comes in contact. It is not so much a reasoned intellectual stance as an attitude, or even, perhaps, a personality type. Those afflicted with such cynicism are like the dwarfs in the last book of C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia, who are, as Aslan expresses it, so afraid of being taken in that they cannot be taken out. Such people claim to know the price of everything and everyone, but they seem to recognize the value of nothing. But the problem may well be in the cynic rather than in the object of his scorn. "No man," as the French saying goes, "is a hero to his valet."2 Why? The German philosopher G.W.F. Hegel is surely right when he responds: "This is not because the hero is no hero, but because the valet is a valet."3

[helemon]

From Fubeca on RfM

President Gordon B. Hinckley
Office of the First Presidency
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
50 E North Temple
Salt Lake City, UT 84150

September 26, 2005

Dear Gordon B. Hinckley,

I am a life-long member in good standing. I served an honorable mission. I was married in the temple. I have not been offended and I have not sinned according to church doctrine. Yet, my wife has recently filed for divorce because I no longer believe in the church.

I recently read a statement made by Russell M. Nelson regarding the personal nature of religion. He said,

“How can we have freedom of religion if we are not free to compare honestly, to choose wisely, and to worship according to the dictates of our own conscience? While searching for the truth, we must be free to change our mind—even to change our religion—in response to new information and inspiration. One’s religion is not imposed by others. It is not predetermined. It is a very personal and sacred choice, nestled at the very core of human dignity.” (Freedom to Do and to Be, Russell M. Nelson, International Scientific and Practical Conference "Religious Freedom: Transition and Globalization", Kiev, Ukraine, Thursday, 27 May 2004)

The irony is that I am a member of the very church he represents yet I do not feel like I and my family members are free to “compare honestly.” I do not feel free to worship according to the dictates of MY conscience, to change MY mind, or to change MY religion in response to new information and inspiration.

How am I free to “compare honestly” when leaders in the church counsel against reading literature which contradicts church published versions of events? Honesty is telling both sides of the story yet the church admits it does not do this.

“Balance is telling both sides. This is not the mission of the official church literature or avowedly anti-Mormon literature. Neither has any responsibility to present both sides.” Dallin H. Oaks, August 16, 1985 (Michael Quinn, Mormon Hierarchy; Extensions of Power, in appendix five)

So, where else am I supposed to go to “compare honestly?”

I would have been content my whole life believing that church leaders were providing me with the truth until I found out that there are several historical facts that the church has suppressed. My discovery of these has led me to conclude that the church is NOT a reliable source of truth.

So, where do I go to go to “compare honestly?”

As a lifelong member, for example, I never knew Joseph Smith practiced polygamy and lied about it (compare the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants with the current heading of section 132). I never knew he married women who were already married (polyandry). I never knew that for years the church held up Joseph’s intended translations of the Kinderhook Plates as proof of his translating gift only to be debunked later. I never knew that scholars in and out of the church have admitted that the Book of Abraham facsimiles bear no resemblance to the translation that appears in the Pearl of Great Price. I never hear discussions on the implications that recent DNA evidence holds for the Book of Mormon, or on the dearth of Archaeological, Biological and Linguistic evidence to support the teaching of a Hebrew population in the Americas. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg!

While you and others will likely be able to create a rationale for all of the facts that I’ve mentioned above, that’s beside the point. The point is that I was never able to “compare honestly” and to also follow church counsel at the same time. I might have decided that like you I still believed even given the facts above, but I still think they are pertinent to comparing honestly and gaining a true testimony.

A testimony based on false information is a false testimony. D&C 93:24 states that truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were. Not just things as we wish they were, as they are faith promoting, as approved by the First Presidency, or as it supports our version of things.

How does suppressing facts such as these from church lesson manuals follow your own claim that,

“As a Church, we encourage gospel scholarship and the search to understand all truth. Fundamental to our theology is belief in individual freedom of inquiry, thought, and expression. Constructive discussion is a privilege of every Latter-day Saint.” (Ensign, Sept. 1985, p.5.)

Why, in the name of “freedom of inquiry, thought, and expression,” can’t I express my doubts in a gospel doctrine class or a temple recommend interview or in my own home? Why do I have no one I can talk to without serious implications – like being probed as to my worthiness or being served divorce papers? Why are CES and BYU employees discouraged, fired and disciplined for discussing the truth?

Imagine my shock as a volunteer early morning seminary, when I sincerely believed I was duty-bound to sacrifice precious time with my family to disseminate the truth, to hear a talk by Elder Boyd K. Packer actually railing against the truth by saying,

“The truth is not uplifting it destroys. . . . Historians should tell only that part of the truth that is inspiring and uplifting". -Boyd K. Packer (Faithful History: Essays on Writing Mormon History, page 103)

It’s clear that the message church leaders provide the public is very different from the one they offer to members. They seem to be speaking out of both sides of their mouths. Everyone I have talked to only skirts the issues and claims I need to pray more. In Primary I learned to “search, ponder AND pray.” The admonition to “search” is disingenuous when coupled with warnings against “anti-Mormon” material; it’s insincere when I’m served platitudes such as “don’t worry about that” when I encounter difficult issues.

David O McKay once declared that:

"Ours is the responsibility … to proclaim the truth that each individual is a child of God and important in his sight; that he is entitled to freedom of thought, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly; that he has the right to worship God according to the dictates of his conscience. In this positive declaration, we imply that organizations or churches which deprive the individual of these inherent rights are not in harmony with God's will nor with his revealed word." (General Conference, April 1954)

It is my belief that the church is “not in harmony with God's will.” It is disloyal to its own teachings.

Shouldn’t I be free to make my own “very personal and sacred choice” without losing my family’s respect and love? How else can I maintain my “human dignity,” which Elder Nelson claims I have a right to just like everyone else?

I know the church will never afford me that “very personal and sacred” privilege of which Elder Nelson spoke. My family is taught that I am something to be fixed rather than respected. My wife has already been taught that she has lost her “eternal marriage” and the “blessings of the priesthood” in her home. This is presented as a devastating blow in church lessons and in church culture. I’ve been called evil and under the influence of Satan. This, in spite of the fact that I have remained faithful to her, continued to attend church and remained “worthy” of my priesthood. She believes that no spouse is better than an unbelieving spouse. It is this sort of belief and attitude that the church fosters which make other religions label it as a cult.

As a missionary in Brazil, I was taught to compel others to follow the truth in spite of comfort, family or social ties. But I’m supposed to stay with the religion of MY birth because of family ties even though “new information and inspiration” leads me elsewhere? It is a hypocritical expectation and one that I’ve had repeated to me over and over again from my wife and other family members in the church. A church that claims the duty of proselyting the truth holds the expectation that its own members will suppress it.

While I was willing to do so for the sake of my family, now that my family is being broken up over the church, I no longer want to remain a part of it. The church has been disloyal to me and I believe it’s more than just a personal decision my wife has made. It is a spiritually flawed decision based on a spiritually flawed religion bearing rotten and untrustworthy fruit. The consequences of the church’s dishonesty reach into my young children’s lives and that is unforgivable. After much prayer and pondering, I no longer want to be affiliated with it.

This letter is my formal resignation from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and it is effective immediately. I hereby withdraw my consent to being treated as a member and I withdraw my consent to being subject to church rules, policies, beliefs and discipline. As I am no longer a member, I want my name permanently and completely removed from the membership rolls of the church.

I have given this matter considerable thought. I understand what you consider the seriousness and the consequences of my actions. I am aware that the church handbook says that my resignation "cancels the effects of baptism and confirmation, withdraws the priesthood held by a male member and revokes temple blessings." I also understand that I will be "readmitted to the church by baptism only after a thorough interview."

My resignation should be processed immediately, without any 'waiting periods'. I am not going to be dissuaded and I am not going to change my mind. I expect this matter to be handled promptly, with respect, and with full confidentiality. No one in my family or in my circle of friends needs to be informed of this personal matter.

After today, the only contact I want from the church is a single letter of confirmation to let me know that I am no longer listed as a member of the church.

Sincerely,


Fubeca

cc. Bishop ____; President ______; Member Records

[lunaverse]

http://www.rationalrevelation.com is a new site for documenting aspects of mind control, cult dynamics, psychology, and recovery issues within the context of Mormonism.

I only have one article up there so far, and you've all already seen it. :) Stay tuned for more.

Luna

[helemon]

From Poky-Man on RfM
When a TBM asks you why you left the Church or have severe doubts about it, you can start by listing many misc. facts that even TSSC will admit to being true. Read a few that I have come up with and please add more that you are aware of.

1. Joseph Smith had many plural wives (more than 20) and many were married to other men as well (even faithful members of the Church). Many of his wives were in their teens and one was even 14. Many, if not most, of these wives were very reluctant and hesitant about entering into plural marriage but agreed after being told it was commanded of God through revelation by Joseph Smith.

2. Emma, Joseph Smith’s first wife, was unaware of most of his plural marriages up to the time of his death and for some time afterward.

3. The official Church version of the “First Vision” of Joseph Smith found in the Pearl of Great Price differs substantially from a hand written version from JS himself in 1832. In the 1832 version, JS does not mention seeing God the Father, nor does he mention asking a question about which church he should join; rather, JS states that he already knew all other churches were false before he prayed. Smith testified: “by searching the scriptures I found that mankind did not come unto the Lord but that they had apostatized from the true and living faith and there was no society or denomination that built upon the gospel of Jesus Christ.”

4. B.H. Roberts, in the early 1900’s, was considered Mormonism’s most competent historian, leading theologian, and chief defender of the faith (apologist). In 1921, a letter was referred to him received by James E. Talmage from a man asking 5 specific questions about problems with the BoM. Roberts was asked to answer this man’s questions. After considering the questions for a month and coming to no satisfactory answers, Roberts requested and had a conference with Heber J. Grant (Church President), his Counselors, and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, for the purpose of discussing and receiving inspiration or revelatory insight to the answers to these difficult questions about the BoM. This long meeting resulted in no further help or insight to answering these questions for Roberts other than each of the Brethren baring their testimonies of the truthfulness of the BoM.

5. After the above mentioned meeting, B.H. Roberts embarked upon a prolonged study of the BoM with a specific comparison of Ethan Smith’s book, “View of the Hebrews” published a few years prior to the BoM being published. Roberts wrote a manuscript detailing this study, titled, “A Book of Mormon Study”. In this manuscript he detailed numerous and startling points of resemblance and suggestive contact between the two works. A quote from Roberts found in the manuscript: “In light of the evidence, there can be no doubt as to the possession of a vividly strong, creative imagination by Joseph Smith, the Prophet, an imagination, it could with reason be urged, which, given the suggestions that are to be found in the “common knowledge” of accepted American antiquities of the times, supplemented by such a work as Ethan Smith’s “View of the Hebrews”, would make it possible for him to create a book such as the Book of Mormon is.”

6. Brigham Young, the second President and Prophet of the Mormon Church, taught while he was President of the Church that Adam was really God (Adam-God theory). This is now considered false doctrine by the current LDS church. ??(A Prophet of God will never lead the Church astray.)??

7. The Mormon Church teaches that the BoM contains the fullness of the gospel, however, the BoM does not teach the following Mormon gospel principles:
a. The Aaronic nor Melchizedek Priesthood is not mentioned.
b. No teaching about “three degrees of glory“.
c. No mention about not drinking alcohol, tea, or coffee.
d. No mention that God has a body of flesh and bones.
e. No mention of temple participation and ceremonies being necessary for exaltation.
f. No mention of temple work for the dead.
g. No mention that man may progress to be Gods.
h. No mention that it is okay to practice polygamy.
i. No mention about wearing of sacred undergarments.
j. No mention that the black race is the seed of Cain.
k. No mention that God has a wife.
l. No mention that Satan and Jesus are spiritual brothers.
m. No mention of the plurality of Gods.
n. No mention that the Holy Ghost is also a son of God.

8. Joseph Smith, Jr. was involved with the occult magic art learned from his father and which was commonly practiced by many other individuals in their area of the country. JS hired out as a “treasure seeker” using the supposed magical power of a “peep-stone” to locate hidden treasures. He was involved in this kind of activity for many years from about 1820 to 1827. He was brought to trial in March, 1826 “as a disorderly person” because of pretense as a “glass looker” and pretending to discover lost goods, hidden treasures, mines of gold and silver, etc.

9. The Mountain Meadows Massacre of Sept. 11, 1857 resulted in the slaughter in cold blooded murder of 120 men, women, and children from a wagon train passing through Southern Utah. This massacre was carried out by about 50 Mormon men along with recruited and encouraged local Indians after orders given from the leaders of local Mormon militia who also served as the leaders of the Mormon Church in the area. The whole unfortunate event stemmed from bad feelings left from Mormon persecution of the saints while in Missouri and Illinois along with U.S. government troops being sent to Utah at the time to quell Mormon insurrection. “Blood Atonement”, being taught by Church President Brigham Young during this era, may have had a factor in causing this tragedy.

[helemon]

http://www.lds-mormon.com/poelman.shtml
This talk is famous because of how much he was forced to change it prior to it being printed in the General Conference edition of the Ensign. The problem was that Elder Poleman tried to separate the gospel from church rituals and traditions. :slap:

Original version:
When we understand the difference between the gospel and the Church and the appropriate function of each in our daily lives, we are much more likely to do the right things for the right reasons.

Edited version:
When we see the harmony between the gospel and the Church in our daily lives, we are much more likely to do the right things for the right reasons. :duh

[helemon]

http://www.gospelink.com

This site has an electronic database of a large library of church writings including the Journal of Discourses.

[helemon]

Detailed information concerning the evidence that Rigdon had a hand at creating the BoM:
http://www.mormonstudies.com/criddle/rigdon.htm#15

[left_of_hive]

Hey, I found some funny (if low-tech) mormon satire stuff at www.cafepress.com/formermormon Maybe you all have seen the stuff at cafe press, but there are lots of funny things if you search by keyword.

[free thinker]

B.H. Roberts as a member of the Quorum of Seventy penned this. It compares a book written by Ethan Smith, that was published and widely distributed in Joseph Smith's New England area five years before the Book of Mormon.

Grant Palmer who wrote " An Insiders Veiw of Mormon Origins" showed that a copy of this existed in the Palmyra public library at the time Joseph Smith lived there. In fact records show that it was checked out a number of times in the period between when it was published and Joseph Smith had the Book of Mormon published. A coincidence maybe?

http://home.comcast.net/~zarahemla/BOM/parallel.html


ft

[helemon]

Contains information about variou MLM organizations. While not specifically about Mormonism I thought it was relevant since so many Mormons get caught up in MLM scams.

http://www.quackwatch.org/

[helemon]

http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-11/beliefs.html
Biology and Survival
Our brain's primary purpose is to keep us alive. It certainly does more than that, but survival is always its fundamental purpose and always comes first. If we are injured to the point where our bodies only have enough energy to support consciousness or a heartbeat but not both, the brain has no problem choosing-it puts us into a coma (survival before consciousness), rather than an alert death-spiral (consciousness before survival).

Because every brain activity serves a fundamental survival purpose, the only way to accurately understand any brain function is to examine its value as a tool for survival. Even the difficulty of successfully treating such behavioral disorders as obesity and addiction can only be understood by examining their relationship to survival. Any reduction in caloric intake or in the availability of a substance to which an individual is addicted is always perceived by the brain as a threat to survival. As a result the brain powerfully defends the overeating or the substance abuse, producing the familiar lying, sneaking, denying, rationalizing, and justifying commonly exhibited by individuals suffering from such disorders.
more...

[infymus]

The Mormon Curtain.

http://www.mormoncurtain.com/

Largest Ex-Mormon blog around (I think ... :p )

Containing 1,514 Articles Spanning 115 Topics - Online since January 1, 2005.

[peter_mary]

The Mormon Curtain.

http://www.mormoncurtain.com/

Largest Ex-Mormon blog around (I think ... :p )

Containing 1,514 Articles Spanning 115 Topics - Online since January 1, 2005.
...and another proud sponsor of the "Reading 'Rough Stone Rolling' So You Don't Have To!" blog!

Muchas Gracias, infymus! Always happy to have a wider audience!

[helemon]

http://home.teleport.com/~packham/lawsuit.htm

[helemon]

http://extras.sltrib.com/specials/polygamy/Timeline.asp
Pretty good but they left out the Reed Smoot case.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot_Hearings

http://extras.sltrib.com/specials/polygamy/PolygamyLeaders.pdf

[helemon]

http://trialsofascension.net/mormon.html

[helemon]

http://www.saintswithouthalos.com/
A site dedicated to presenting honest historical information pertaining to the early years of the Mormon church.

[helemon]

http://www.mormonstudies.com/criddle/rigdon.htm#1

[helemon]

I think this was written by Big Eddy's brother.
http://www.salamandersociety.com/howobvious/

[caskade]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scientologists#General_celebrities

I was looking through the above list of famous scientologists and one name stuck out to me: Heber C. Jentzsch

Obviously because of the similarity to the name of the mormon apostle Heber C. Kimball. Clicking on the name confirmed my suspicions...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heber_Jentzsch

it appears Jentzsch was born into a mormon family named after Heber C. Kimball and is now the president of the international sector of the church of Scientology! Which, to me, is an obviously dangerous and corrupt cult. I don't know if his family were members of the "proper" part of the LDS church (they practiced polygamy) but it could be possible that they were alive during the polygamy era of the church.

[helemon]

http://www.godwouldbeanatheist.com/
A rational look at religion, morality, politics and daily life

[helemon]

http://www.the-brights.net/vision/
Persons who have a naturalistic worldview should not be culturally stifled or civically marginalized due to society’s extensive supernaturalism. Rather, they ought to be accepted as fellow citizens and full participants in the cultural and political landscape.

[helemon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism

[helemon]

http://mormonwiki.org/Main_Page

[boater]

I have studied for 8 months everything and many good ones are out there. If you want a concise booklet that summs up the significant issues in a cincise manner read, 'Mormon Claims Answered" by Marvin W. Cowan. I found it in the Tanners bookstore on line--Lighthouse Ministries. I also like Grant Palmers book-An Insiders View. I like the Tanners "Mormonism,Shadow or Reality" but be ready for detail and the some frank comments.

[helemon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn

[grape_nephi]

If you would like to read some of my thoughts on various matters as well as a dialog (and I use the term very loosely) between myself and LDS leaders go to:

http://www.geocities.com/westwil2000/lds.html

Anyone interested in more of my writings on the articles of faith please contact me as I have a lot more material put together.

Cheers!

[peter_mary]

If you would like to read some of my thoughts on various matters as well as a dialog (and I use the term very loosely) between myself and LDS leaders go to:

http://www.geocities.com/westwil2000/lds.html

Anyone interested in more of my writings on the articles of faith please contact me as I have a lot more material put together.

Cheers!
Grape,

Read the letters. Wow. Some great information in there on your part, and the letter from the Stake Presidency was, and I say this with love, "lame." I'll bet you wished to "bless them with a knowledge of the backside of your hand" when you were done reading that sucker.

Thanks for posting the links.

[grape_nephi]

Grape,

Read the letters. Wow. Some great information in there on your part, and the letter from the Stake Presidency was, and I say this with love, "lame." I'll bet you wished to "bless them with a knowledge of the backside of your hand" when you were done reading that sucker.

Thanks for posting the links.

Yeah, I couldn't believe my eyes when I read it but could believe it at the same time. And then a while after that I get a call from him where he tells me I have a choice. Resign or be ex'd. I ended up resigning, family and all.