Love

[shamdiel]

Just some thoughts; I would bet that the love story that created this universe and all it's wonders would be the greatest love story ever told!
I watched a program on the Discovery channel about the evolution of the universe. Some of the best and brightest in the fields of astrophysics and astronomy were trying to explain, with the most recent discoveries, the universe. Were it came from where it is headed and why it is here, as opposed to nothing. One physicists stated that; "It all seems to be here just so we can observe it and if we ever come up with the equation that explains it all it may be so simple that it could be printed on a T-shirt. "

If you believe in God then the greatest love story would be the coming together of Mr. God and Mrs. God. That would be some story don't you think? Because of their love for each other and all there children, they made this place. And if that is so then this place, by necessity, must be a school where little God children are taught the greater issues of becoming "As God is." The equation would be L-O-V-E.

If you don't believe in God then the greatest love story would be the Universe created an animal, by the process of evolution, that could look at it in wonder, see the beauty and desire to know why, why are these wondrous things here and what is my place in it? Again it looks like the equation is L-O-V-E. And lest you think me to be presumptuous, then consider. This universe, and everything in it, is made up of energy in different states of vibration. The different frequencies of vibration determine whether a thing is a energy wave or solid matter. Light is vibrating energy waves, the same way sound is, the same why matter is, one you see, one you hear, one you touch. Hence Einstein stated that, "matter can be neither created nor destroyed. It can only change states."

The Universe vibrates! It sings a song of creation, and in what it creates it is searching for something to observe it. Something the can hear the song. That sounds like a burning need for love to me! We (HUMANS) were created in this vibrating energy field. All that makes us up is part of this vibrating energy. Of all the animals, that we know, we have the greatest intellect. We are the only critters that look up in wonder and awe. We are the only critters that understand beauty and math... We are the ones that are trying to answer the question 'why?'. We are the masters of love!

The Universe beckons to us! We were created in it by the power and forces that bind it all togeather. It dares us to figure it out, to solve the equation. If we do then we know. Knowledge is power. If we understand a thing then we have power to control it. Sounds to me like the Universal is trying to create God and has chosen us! Especially when you consider that our world is on the outside edge of a spiral galaxy that is on the outside edge of the Universe. That means that this is some of the oldest real estate in the Universe and evolution is farther along here. Can we become as God is? Maybe, if we mature socially and morally enough to match our science, so that we don't destroy ouurselves first.

Our capacity to love is greater then any other. Both to give and receive but, one other also, to teach. By our loving of an animal we can teach it to be peaceable and to associate with other species that, on it's own, in the wild, it would consider an enemy or food. None of us have ever rounded a trail, in the wild, and happened on a deer and a mountain lion discussing the beauty of the sunset. Neither have we ever seen a eagle flying with a flock of ducks, to play. Put them in the hands of humans and they not only respond to the care and love shown them by loving back but they can actually become friends and playmates with other species. Something that they would never do on their own! They can even be taught this as adults. Species doesn't seem to matter. I have seen people with pet snakes, frogs, turtles, cougars, bears, cows, birds, dogs, cats, pigs, spiders, etc. etc. Little bit of God-like behavior?

Bottom line? Embrace all that is beauty and love. Don't be afraid to love and be loved. No matter how much you have been hurt or disappointed, know that there are many of us out there that know what you are going through. We send you our love and best wishes. Get on with the process of healing, quickly, so that beauty, joy and love once again grace your life. I send you my love even though I know you not. Be good to you! John
P.S. Don't forget to send love to our planet! It is a living thing and it needs love to help it heal from all the meanness, from those who know no better, that it is receiving right now!!!

[free thinker]

Great post! I enjoyed reading this! I will be thinking about it in the days to come!

One thing I would very much like to know is how to convert love into peace! :(


Free Thinker

[dogzilla]

All you need is love...

All you need is love, love...

Love is all you need...

Thanks to John Lennon.

[shamdiel]

One thing I would very much like to know is how to convert love into peace! :(


Free Thinker
See what you think about this. We know that the Universe is a place of great power and energy. This energy runs through it and binds it all togeather. You were born right in the middle of all this energy and created from the very particles that make it up. WE are the most intellegent thing, that we know of, in the Universe, so far. All thoughts and emotions are energy that is developed in your brain. At the same time these thoughts are forming, in your brain, the energy and forces of the Universe are passing through you. It may be possible, therefore, for a person to dilibratly modulate the energy of the Universe to a vibation that is in line with a specific desire. We maybe doing unaware most of the time.

If we we were created by the Universe to observe it and to someday be able to control it or co create with it, then it is logical to asume that we must be capable of directing it's power and energy by some means. Maybe something right in front of our noses that we are unaware of, like our minds. :cool:

Peace seems to follow love. I purpose that if enough people make a concise effort to send love and be love that a healing balm just may start to spread over the face of the earth and peace will be the outcome. :) After all every thing is a soup and all things touch everything else!

Ladies I am afraid us men are going to have to defer to you on this one for a while. We men always seem to find a way to fight about things. Machoism being what it is! You have a much deeper bond to the child, that come from your womb, then us men seem to. Your babies are being used, by us men, as cannon foder. You are going to need to teach us how to stop fighting. Sorry guys, you know that is the way we are!! :o
John

[peter_mary]

I'm also thinking I would love a recall election right about now to encourage world peace... :)

Paul

[silverfox]

That was a beautiful post, Sham. Loved it. :)

[dogzilla]

Ladies I am afraid us men are going to have to defer to you on this one for a while. We men always seem to find a way to fight about things. Machoism being what it is! You have a much deeper bond to the child, that come from your womb, then us men seem to. Your babies are being used, by us men, as cannon foder. You are going to need to teach us how to stop fighting. Sorry guys, you know that is the way we are!! :o
John

Jeez, we've been trying to tell you guys for like 2,000 years, but you keep making up commandments and laws to justify not listening to us... even to justify treating us like disposable garbage.

That's it! No more babies until y'all start listening up. It starts with me. I refuse to have any babies from this point forward until every male on this planet gets a clue.

:rolleyes:

[dogzilla]

See what you think about this. We know that the Universe is a place of great power and energy. This energy runs through it and binds it all togeather. You were born right in the middle of all this energy and created from the very particles that make it up. WE are the most intellegent thing, that we know of, in the Universe, so far. All thoughts and emotions are energy that is developed in your brain. At the same time these thoughts are forming, in your brain, the energy and forces of the Universe are passing through you. It may be possible, therefore, for a person to dilibratly modulate the energy of the Universe to a vibation that is in line with a specific desire. We maybe doing unaware most of the time.

If we we were created by the Universe to observe it and to someday be able to control it or co create with it, then it is logical to asume that we must be capable of directing it's power and energy by some means. Maybe something right in front of our noses that we are unaware of, like our minds. :cool:



All sillyness aside, I'll once again be the one to point out that the above is a very pagan point of view. IMHO, you and I and everyone else, are completely capable of controlling and/or co-creating, and/or co-destroying this universe and anything in it ... once we tune in to that internal power.

I've seen a pattern of pagan viewpoints being gravitated to by exmos on this board. I've taken it upon myself to point it out to the rest of you every time I see it. Look for more drive-by posts wherein I spot something a pagan might say.

[miss taken]

Okay Dogzilla, you have got me interested. How do you define Pagan, I have no idea what Pagan means to you??? Surely there will be a lot of cross referencing with most religions christian and non-christian. My Hindu friend talks of many gods, yet worships one through the many, my muslim friends share much of the judeao/christian theology, humanists share beliefs in common with christians... christian groups themselves comprise a great plethora of beliefs and ethical systems?? What's the big deal????? :o

[peter_mary]

That's it! No more babies until y'all start listening up. It starts with me. I refuse to have any babies from this point forward until every male on this planet gets a clue.

:rolleyes:

Oh good...the world may not be ready for Puppyzillas! :D

Paul

[Born Free]

Jeez, we've been trying to tell you guys for like 2,000 years, but you keep making up commandments and laws to justify not listening to us... even to justify treating us like disposable garbage.

That's it! No more babies until y'all start listening up. It starts with me. I refuse to have any babies from this point forward until every male on this planet gets a clue.

:rolleyes:

Take a clue from the female bonobo monkeys, who scientists conclude have used sex to control social behaviour! :)

On a more serious note, I have an issue with any dichotomy that says female = sweetness truth and light; male = the dark side! That is so out of touch with much of the latest findings and thinking on gender. One area of female "dark side' that is just starting to be researched and discussed is teenage girls social behaviour. Their nastiness is legend and as I read more of it, I cannot recall any male equivalent. Women, just like men, and heteros, and gays, come in the full spectrum, from great to naaaaasty!

So can I extend an invitation to at least consider the possibility that feminism is another "ism", like communism, capitalism etc, contains some virtue and some fault, and is at best a human construct, bringing with it all the baggage humans carry.

Much of what was accepted as unquestionable feminist fact 20 years ago is now laughable - such as all gender behaviour is socially shaped. I am aware of research finding that teh level of violence in lesbian relationships is as high or higher than in hetero relationships. Sorry, no testicles present; so what happened to teh theroy that masculinity is the root cause of all agression?

One of teh things I love about this and similar forums is the preparedness to check whether we have been duped, whether our ideas are limiting what our lives could be. May I suggest that genderism not be off the radar screen.

Daryl

[peter_mary]

On a more serious note, I have an issue with any dichotomy that says female = sweetness truth and light; male = the dark side! That is so out of touch with much of the latest findings and thinking on gender. One area of female "dark side' that is just starting to be researched and discussed is teenage girls social behaviour. Their nastiness is legend and as I read more of it, I cannot recall any male equivalent. Women, just like men, and heteros, and gays, come in the full spectrum, from great to naaaaasty!

So can I extend an invitation to at least consider the possibility that feminism is another "ism", like communism, capitalism etc, contains some virtue and some fault, and is at best a human construct, bringing with it all the baggage humans carry.

Much of what was accepted as unquestionable feminist fact 20 years ago is now laughable - such as all gender behaviour is socially shaped. I am aware of research finding that teh level of violence in lesbian relationships is as high or higher than in hetero relationships. Sorry, no testicles present; so what happened to teh theroy that masculinity is the root cause of all agression?

One of teh things I love about this and similar forums is the preparedness to check whether we have been duped, whether our ideas are limiting what our lives could be. May I suggest that genderism not be off the radar screen.

Daryl

Amen to the nasty adolescent girl! I have two adolescent boys who, though their hormones rage, are convinced NOTHING is more confusing than the teenage girl... :eek:

Regarding feminism...I think there are probably a gazillion ways to think about it, and indeed there are several well defined "schools" of feminist thought. I personally have no use for the one that says "man bad, woman good."

To me, when I'm talking feminism, I'm talking about a school of thought that values relationships and equality, placing a high degree of emphasis on the needs of women and children over and above the needs of capitalism. As a GENERAL rule, the social structures we observe to be in place in most of the world that favor men and oppress women are the result of thousands of years of men asserting power in a manner which makes sense to them. I'm not inclined to say they (we) were "wrong", but I am inclined to say that the result has been very unfortunate for 50% of the human race and their dependent offspring.

But that's not about replacing Patriarchy with Matriarchy. It's about evaluating the values of society, and recognizing that there's a problem when our welfare roles are teeming with single moms and small children, while our military is unbelievable, our corporations make more money in a day than most of the rest of the world does in a year, and the power brokers continue to be almost exclusively men. It is clear at least in the United States that we value material wealth and power obtained at any cost, and not the weakest among us. The feminism for which I am a propenant simply says that our people are more important than our ability to kick world-ass, and our women and children are suffering for a gross lack of consideration for anything but the apparent needs of men.

Call it "equalism" if you prefer... :)

Paul

[dogzilla]

Okay Dogzilla, you have got me interested. How do you define Pagan, I have no idea what Pagan means to you??? Surely there will be a lot of cross referencing with most religions christian and non-christian. My Hindu friend talks of many gods, yet worships one through the many, my muslim friends share much of the judeao/christian theology, humanists share beliefs in common with christians... christian groups themselves comprise a great plethora of beliefs and ethical systems?? What's the big deal????? :o

Not a big deal at all. I've simply studied a lot of religions in my post-mo life and have noticed a pattern of other exmos trending toward eastern or pagan philosophies. I find it interesting.

First, some examples of pagan religions:
• The Celts (early Irish and Scots) were pagans, as were the Norse (vikings), the Picts (early Scots), Romans (early Italians), Greeks and several other European and Asian cultures. Most of those religions were polytheistic and had a host of different gods and goddesses who each served diffferent purposes. (Diana was the Greek goddess of the hunt for example.) All of these religions pre-dated Christianity and the Crusades were about wiping out pagan cultures to replace them with Christianity. More on this in a second.
• Native Americans, both in North and South America also were pagans, with an earth-based, mother nature sort of religion. Plants and animals were used as religious icons or symbols, but it was nature in general that was worshipped. This is where you'll find some matriarchal-based societies.
• And then there's the witches (Wicca), which really is an earth-based religion as well and not so different from most native tribal religions. Many parts of "witchcraft" as we think of when we think about Salem, Mass., came from Celtic religions or traditions or stupid-stitions. There are also many offshoots of this, which results in some ridiculous stuff like channeling and aromatherapy and other New Age claptrap that I think was invented for those dissatisfied with Christianity -- it gives them a sense of spritualism without being a patriarchal, oppressive, misogynistic, judgmental rules-based "religion."

My personal definition of "pagan" is any religion that doesn't worship a traditional Judeo-Christian "god" nor does it have any single written authority, such as a Qu'ran, Torah, Bible, BOM, what have you. One of my favorite things about paganism is that there are no hard and fast rules. You get to make things up as you go along and if you happen to find a group of people who agree with you, presto! You're part of a group of people who believe the same thing.

So my religious evolution (oxymoron, like jumbo shrimp? ;) ) has taken me to the point where I believe there is no old white man in the sky, making up oppressive misogynistic rules and passing judgment on my every thought and action. Nor do I believe there's a bunch of 'em up there firing lightning bolts down on we mere mortals.... I believe that the energy that traditional Judeo-Christians call "god" is really the power each living being has to create and destroy. In higher mammals, like humans, we get to think, reason, plan, feel and love. This gives us power. Many of us can't handle the power or are external attributors (or are simply conditioned to not think about these things in this way), so when something positive happens, we thank "god" instead of recognizing the role we played in influencing the outcome, or the energy we put into our efforts. Or else we can't or won't accept responsibility for our thoughts, actions or choices and instead shift the blame to "satan" saying we were tempted or being tried or whatever other excuse people use to ignore their own responsiblity in the situation. I've seen a lot of discussion on these boards about accountability and personal responsibility and those really don't seem -- to me -- to be Christian ideas. ("Trust the priesthood.")

That said, yes, there are many parallels between paganism and Christianity. This is mostly due to the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition and brutal Colonialism disguised as missionary work. Many of our Christian holidays and holiday traditions are rooted in ancient pagan traditions or rituals. The Christmas tree, yule log, cookies and gifts? Pagan, pagan, pagan, pagan. Santa Claus? Pagan. Easter bunny, eggs, baskets and lambs? Pagan, pagan, pagan, pagan. Even the timing of some holidays coincide with traditionally pagan holidays, such as Easter falling on or around the Spring Equinox. Candelmas became Groundhog Day. Samhain became Halloween, or All Hallows Eve. Christianity, like any good virus, has spent the last 2,000 years taking pagan ideas and spinning them to fit in with Christian ideals. See http://www.2think.org/hii/holiday.shtml for a more detailed explanation.

A good example of how this happened can be seen by examining Voodoo or Santeria. Both are pagan religions that came from African tribes and were brought to the Caribbean with slavery. Christians at the time were frightened by the pagan, ritualistic practices, so to be able to better exert control over the African slaves, they sort of combined Catholicism with the tribal religions. The result was both Voodoo and Santeria. (you can learn more about voodoo by taking a tour around New Orleans; Santeria from touring Cuba or Miami). For every Voodoo God or Goddess, there is a Catholic saint to match. For every symbolic Christian ritual (blood of Christ), there is a not-so-symbolic pagan counterpart (sacrifice a chicken and leave the carcass for a Santeria god). It was much easier to convert African pagans to Christianity when these parallels were drawn, and thus, better to obliterate your native culture with, my dear. In fact, the Catholic saints were derived from early Celtic deities. You can look at many other religions that are far older than Christianity and see these parallels, because Christianity co-opted and drew from pagan religions to become what it is today. My opinion is that Catholicism is just a pagan religion that hasn't outed itself yet.

This is not to say that modern paganism is based on ancient practices. Most pagans today acknowledege that the religion is based on some ancient ideas, but are updated to fit within the modern world, unlike some practices I've seen in Christianity. "Multiply and replenish the earth" comes to mind as an idea that has seen it's time and doesn't really fit with modern society anymore, yet continues to drive doctrine, church policy and people's daily choices.

Apologies for the length of this post. Again, I'm going through all of this because I've noticed since so many exmos have gone through the process of deconstructing Mormonism, for some, that has extended to a deconstruction of Christianity and to some extent a deconstruction of organized religion in general. Many of us recovering Mormons are gravitating to some of these more esoteric ideas because they fit better with our own personal sense of what works, what is real or what is true.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

Finally, ultimate irony: As I'm typing this, the Eurythmics song, "Missionary Man" came on the radio I'm listening to... :D

[miss taken]

Wow, thanks for that reply Dogzilla, really enjoyed reading it. I personally hate the word 'pagan' because it has such negative conotations, for all the reasons you mention, I prefer 'non-christian' because it is less value laden. Absolutely agree with the 'pagan' (see there I go!!!) origin of many, many christian rituals and ideas, particularly in the Catholic Church, viza viz, halo's etc etc.

There are those who would argue that the stories of Jesus (and ethical systems within the OT) are a concoction of 'pagan' ideas from ancient Egypt for example. The Jews did live in Egypt for many years, and it does not seem so unlikely that they would have been influenced by many Egyptian ideas. Many of Jesus's ethics can be found outside of christianity itself. It is an interesting subject.

Now, when you mention pagan, I shall know where you are coming from. Thanks :)

[dogzilla]

Well, thank you for asking the question!

I really enjoyed doing some of the research that resulted in the one lonely link I put up there. I thought that stuff was pretty interesting. I'm glad I had the chance to sort of summarize 4,000 years of religious and political history in a few bitty paragraphs. I'm going to have to do more research on the ancient Egyptian cultures and the Mess O' Potamian cultures (nod to the Daily Show) as I suspect they are the root of all this.

[peter_mary]

Well, thank you for asking the question!

I really enjoyed doing some of the research that resulted in the one lonely link I put up there. I thought that stuff was pretty interesting. I'm glad I had the chance to sort of summarize 4,000 years of religious and political history in a few bitty paragraphs. I'm going to have to do more research on the ancient Egyptian cultures and the Mess O' Potamian cultures (nod to the Daily Show) as I suspect they are the root of all this.

Dogzilla,

You might really enjoy the book, "The Jesus Mysteries: Was the Original Jesus a Pagan God?" by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0609807986/qid=1109365561/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-5744528-3272939?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

It explores at length the very stuff you're talking about.

Paul

[dogzilla]

Oooo! Thanks, Paul. That'll be another pair of raised eyebrows from my nevermormon mother, "Why in the world did you put THIS on your wish list?"

:D