When you save a girl, you save generations

[helemon]

http://deseretbook.com/store/product?sku=4906466
"When you save a girl, you save generations. I see this as the one bright shinning hope in a world that is marching toward moral self-destruction," said President Gordon B. Hinckley. Heavenly Father treasures His daughters, and through His prophet has encouraged them to be a force for good in the world.

And by saving a girl does he mean forcing her to confess her guilt and partial responsibilty for having been abused?:rant:

[dogzilla]

http://deseretbook.com/store/product?sku=4906466


And by saving a girl does he mean forcing her to confess her guilt and partial responsibilty for having been abused?:rant:

Um. Yes. I'm quite sure that's exactly what he means.

[helemon]

Um. Yes. I'm quite sure that's exactly what he means.
I think his is also implying that the moral decay of society rests solely on the shoulders of women. If women weren't tempting men with all that porn then surely the world would be a better place! So in a way this book is a backhanded compliment. It's all up to you women. Men are too weak to control ourselves. Beehive clothing will soon announce the new Beehive Burka so that the men will have an easier time managing what is playing on the stage of their mind.

[dogzilla]

Well, yeah, of course he is. It's always Eve's fault. That's why women get punished or blamed for sexual abuse or rape: they've brought it on themselves. Everything always leads back to Eve and her stupid apple.

Wait.

:duck:

What the hell was that?

;)

[puff]

http://deseretbook.com/store/product?sku=4906466


And by saving a girl does he mean forcing her to confess her guilt and partial responsibilty for having been abused?:rant:i was wondering if women suffer with more guilt than men about their sexuality , due to societys double standard of viewing women as moral protectors who shall never get tainted with something as evil as sensuality (except when apropriate )
my own exsperience of women is that if you can release them from morality guilt they become total sexual voyuers and love you forever more for helping them find there deep sensual being without guilt or fear about anything they might want to do or exsperience , i consider this to be a worthy task , and i totaly love women who are absolute sexual addicts . am i evil for thinking this way .:D

[Born Free]

Well, yeah, of course he is. It's always Eve's fault. That's why women get punished or blamed for sexual abuse or rape: they've brought it on themselves. Everything always leads back to Eve and her stupid apple.

Wait.

:duck:

What the hell was that?

;)
One observer in early Australian colonial days categorised the women of the colony as either 'damned whores or God's police'.

Sound familiar?

It is a sick and shallow society that cannot accomodate a broad and rich model of what constitutes femininity and masculinity. Where does a young woman with a robust libido find room for herself in GBH's simplistic little world view?

Daryl

[helemon]

am i evil for thinking this way .:D

And you wonder why the missionaries avoid your house! :D

[free thinker]

Where does a young woman with a robust libido find room for herself in GBH's simplistic little world view?


She can come over to my house if she wants. I will put that libido to some good use!! :D


ft

[rainangel]

i was wondering if women suffer with more guilt than men about their sexuality , due to societys double standard of viewing women as moral protectors who shall never get tainted with something as evil as sensuality (except when apropriate )


I might be the minority, but I never felt guilty for any of my sexual "sins." I always wondered why, but I never did. I think I tried to feel guilty because that's what I was told I should feel...but I honestly never did. It's one of the reasons why I never did agree with the whole chastity thing (one of my earliest issues with mo). I feel like being sexual is a natural human instinct and I didn't think it was right to fight those feelings. In my last relationship (with a fellow post-mo), he still struggled with the guilt thing sometimes and I had a hard time understanding that. So in my experience, men have more guilt over their sexuality. But I do see your point about the double standard. Plus, I think my ex-boyfriend has issues anyway.

-rainangel

[rainangel]

Where does a young woman with a robust libido find room for herself in GBH's simplistic little world view?

Daryl

I couldn't, so I got out! :)

[dogzilla]

Where does a young woman with a robust libido find room for herself in GBH's simplistic little world view?


She can come over to my house if she wants. I will put that libido to some good use!! :D


ft

Put your money where your mouth is, buddy.
:neener:

:D

[dogzilla]

i was wondering if women suffer with more guilt than men about their sexuality , due to societys double standard of viewing women as moral protectors who shall never get tainted with something as evil as sensuality (except when apropriate )
my own exsperience of women is that if you can release them from morality guilt they become total sexual voyuers and love you forever more for helping them find there deep sensual being without guilt or fear about anything they might want to do or exsperience , i consider this to be a worthy task , and i totaly love women who are absolute sexual addicts . am i evil for thinking this way .:D

I think many women (not even mormon, but all) do feel some guilt when they run into boys with Madonna-Whore complex. I do not think you are evil for the way you think. In fact, I wish more men did think like that.

I've been pretty vociferous on this board about letting go of old stereotypical sexual paradigms placed upon women by society. And while that's all well and good and I've recovered from a lot of damage from abuse when I was a teenager... I still find myself forced into the old roles by the other person in the relationship (a term I'm using loosely, because in my world "relationship" can last just a few hours. ;) ) I don't struggle with guilt, but sometimes, boys assume I do or will.

Example: Last person I dated. There was a certain sex act in question. (Let's just say... I'm "Dog"zilla for more than one reason. ;)) He said, "Oh you don't have to do that." He seemed to think it would be degrading or something. Hell, I've been a mormon, there's no sex act that's more degrading than being a trained morgbot. I thought, "gee, what if I want to do that?" I find it quite pleasurable. He just assumed that I fit into the same pigeonhole as every other chick he's been with and that certain things are not done by "good" girls. (As if I've ever been a good girl.) I let it drop, because it was just a hookup sort of thing, but there were other little clues and signposts along the way that indicated to me that this guy had not broken out of his standard repertoire in terms of how he thought about women and sex. I'm sure this dude would have thought less of me if I'd insisted on that one thing and there I was, forced to play by rules that I think are crap. While I had a good time with that guy, I didn't have nearly as much fun as I could have... if he'd just been okay with my comfort level with the more creative acts.

My point: Just because I think I'm enlightened and have moved past a lot of sort of old school thinking, doesn't mean that every guy I encounter will be in the same place. I usually have to contend with boys who haven't gone through that kind of introspection and have come out the other side having learned to be comfortable with a woman who is comfortable with her sexuality. In my experience, most men aren't, which is tragic. If more men were comfortable with women's sexuality (and their own), we'd all be having more and better sex.

[free thinker]

Put your money where your mouth is, buddy.



A still small voice warned me that I might get called on that. Yea verily, and behold and lo!!! :o


ft


PS. If dogs could speak do you think they might ask their partner to " Do me human style"?

[papa]

FT:

"PS. If dogs could speak do you think they might ask their partner to " Do me human style"?"

rrrowff! :p :D

[Born Free]

I couldn't, so I got out! :)
Rainangel and 'Zilla,

Both your remarks threw me into a space of trying to imagine what it must be like to be MoFemale and have a robust libido, and then be regularly confronted with these mamsy-pamsy pale-faced virginal portrayals of femininity.

Rainangel, you sound like somewhere deep down there was a place in your that was unphased by all that, but I guess there still times when you struggled and wondered if you were 'normal', whatever the hell that means.

I ask because I suspect most MoFemales must experience at least some degree of that process, when their sexual desires are so frequently identified directly or indirectly as 'whorish'.

Daryl

[helemon]

He said, "Oh you don't have to do that." He seemed to think it would be degrading or something.

That's tame. I am suprised he would have an issue over that. It's not like you pulled out the whip and spike collar.

[frauline]

...If JS looked like The Rock, if the women would have been banging down his doors to marry him! I mean, really, its not like they had a real relationship with him, it was only for sex anyway!:lftl: :D

[puff]

And you wonder why the missionaries avoid your house! :Dso i geuss this means that you think what i am doing or suggesting is evil .

[puff]

I think many women (not even mormon, but all) do feel some guilt when they run into boys with Madonna-Whore complex. I do not think you are evil for the way you think. In fact, I wish more men did think like that.

I've been pretty vociferous on this board about letting go of old stereotypical sexual paradigms placed upon women by society. And while that's all well and good and I've recovered from a lot of damage from abuse when I was a teenager... I still find myself forced into the old roles by the other person in the relationship (a term I'm using loosely, because in my world "relationship" can last just a few hours. ;) ) I don't struggle with guilt, but sometimes, boys assume I do or will.

Example: Last person I dated. There was a certain sex act in question. (Let's just say... I'm "Dog"zilla for more than one reason. ;)) He said, "Oh you don't have to do that." He seemed to think it would be degrading or something. Hell, I've been a mormon, there's no sex act that's more degrading than being a trained morgbot. I thought, "gee, what if I want to do that?" I find it quite pleasurable. He just assumed that I fit into the same pigeonhole as every other chick he's been with and that certain things are not done by "good" girls. (As if I've ever been a good girl.) I let it drop, because it was just a hookup sort of thing, but there were other little clues and signposts along the way that indicated to me that this guy had not broken out of his standard repertoire in terms of how he thought about women and sex. I'm sure this dude would have thought less of me if I'd insisted on that one thing and there I was, forced to play by rules that I think are crap. While I had a good time with that guy, I didn't have nearly as much fun as I could have... if he'd just been okay with my comfort level with the more creative acts.

My point: Just because I think I'm enlightened and have moved past a lot of sort of old school thinking, doesn't mean that every guy I encounter will be in the same place. I usually have to contend with boys who haven't gone through that kind of introspection and have come out the other side having learned to be comfortable with a woman who is comfortable with her sexuality. In my experience, most men aren't, which is tragic. If more men were comfortable with women's sexuality (and their own), we'd all be having more and better sex.well first up , thanx for sharing your exsperiences along with a few others , it takes a lot of courage to do that and i apreciate it .

for me i have been with one partner for 28 years so my life would be quite different from yours , not better or worse , just different , so hearing about sexuality from a different perspective and a female perspective at that is enlightning ,
I can,t reveal lots of intimacy about my own life because my partner would be upset by that so i have to be careful what i say .
what i can say is that despite how long we have been together we still really enjoy ourselves and are finding new boundaries to cross , that in itself is quite amazing .
I have to say that i think the engagement you have written about with this other person is a bit out of kilt , he seems to be a bit of a self righteous pric .
if you were emotionaly bonded those sort of things would not happen .
recently i went o a sex exspo . i was initially embarrased as i walked in the doors and greeted by a few young women who were pretty much naked , they were giving me bags and pamphlets and such as i wandered by in a kind of mesmerised stupor , see i never been to anything lke that before so i elt totaly lost .
at the the exspo there were rows upon rows of stalls selling sex toys , mostly for women , or for men to use on women and i began to wonder if i had wasted my $20 .
down the end however was a bar with some girls doing erotic dancing , i was surprised how young they were , and yes extremly good looking , so after 28 years of being a good boy i was suddenly surrounded by boobs and bums of evry kind , it was a bit of a shock but oddly , not very exciting , however the mud wrestling was a real turn on .
there were lots of couples there which i thought was healthy ,a few lonely looking men wearing long black coats , (not healthy )
most of the girls dancing looked like really nice people , i kind of liked there personalitys , but for me casual sex is not something i could realy do , i,m way to reserved and need lots of time to mesh emotionaly ,
oh and i did have DW permission to go , i wanted her to come to but she just couldn,t .
along with this there was boob parade in auckland , 20,000 people turned up in queen street to watch a dozen girls ride past on harleys topless , it was quite sureal , there were people climbing lamp posts to see , the crowd thronged around the parade so thet were stuck there and could not move , there were no police hardly at all and if it wasn,t for the fact that it was the middle of the day and most people were sober , it probably would have turned into a riot , how depraved is that , but anyways , keep truckin and hope you find the man of your dreams soon

[helemon]

so i geuss this means that you think what i am doing or suggesting is evil .
It means that I think the missionaries would surely think that attitude is evil! Especially the sister missionaries.

[dogzilla]

That's tame. I am suprised he would have an issue over that. It's not like you pulled out the whip and spike collar.

That night...

(No, really, I'm kidding.)
:D

[helemon]

That night...

(No, really, I'm kidding.)
:D

You have to work up to the leather and latex slowly.:D

[dogzilla]

You have to work up to the leather and latex slowly.:D

Yeah.

:: eyes free thinker thoughtfully ::

I know just what you mean.

;)

[free thinker]

Yeah.

:: eyes free thinker thoughtfully ::

I know just what you mean.


I am a return missionary.

ft

[helemon]

I am a return missionary.
Then you are familiar with the combination of pain, sexual frustration and the smell of leather.:duck:

[dogzilla]

Then you are familiar with the combination of pain, sexual frustration and the smell of leather.:duck:

Prolly knows all about being bad as well. I bet he's been spanked...

Where's that dominatrix smilie? This'll do.

:duck:

[rainangel]

Rainangel and 'Zilla,

Both your remarks threw me into a space of trying to imagine what it must be like to be MoFemale and have a robust libido, and then be regularly confronted with these mamsy-pamsy pale-faced virginal portrayals of femininity.

Rainangel, you sound like somewhere deep down there was a place in your that was unphased by all that, but I guess there still times when you struggled and wondered if you were 'normal', whatever the hell that means.

I ask because I suspect most MoFemales must experience at least some degree of that process, when their sexual desires are so frequently identified directly or indirectly as 'whorish'.

Daryl

Daryl,

I feel lucky that I was able to come out of it ok and still be a normal, functioning, sexually active adult. There were definitely times that were a struggle for me. I would listen to the lessons in YW and often wonder if something was wrong with me...sometimes I felt like something was wrong because of my "robust libido" and other times I felt like something was wrong with me because I never really felt guilty for not following "the rules."

Even before I decided to leave the church and never look back, I knew I could never fit the good mormon wife role. It's just not in my personality. Don't get me wrong, I still want to settle down someday and get married and have a family, but I will never be someone's submissive wife. I will never be second to my husband and my marriage will never be second to god or any religion.

If I had to make a list of my issues with the mormon church, their views on sex, women as sexual beings, and sexual relationships (in and out of marriage) would be in the top 3. This is a great topic for me because I actually have experiences to share...and I'm not afraid of anyone here judging me.

-rainangel

[dogzilla]

What she said.

On a much more serious note, I think this is probably the issue that would have driven me out of the church even if there hadn't been all that nasty abuse business. I'm sure I've posted this story here before, but I vividly recall stalking out of a sunday school class in a huff circa age 14 or so, because the teacher insisted the only function or purpose I could ever possibly hope to serve in life is to be a mommy. It wasn't just the robust libido issue, it was how women are subjugated in all areas. Anyway, I went out to the lobby and quietly sat down on the couch to wait out the rest of sunday school. My dad stepped out of his HP group meeting and spotted me. He queried what the hell I was doing out of class and I told him, "I disagreed with this position; I think the teacher's being a close-minded jerk, and I'm not going to sit there and listen to that and not have any other point of view heard." :rant: My dad blinked, said "Carry on," and went back to his class. :p (He's the first person who learned that sometimes, it's better to just not argue with me.)

Another issue, that I think would have come to the forefront is the fact that my mom is nevermo. I didn't care about getting married in the temple, despite the church's best efforts to program me to want that, because I knew it meant that my mom wouldn't be at my wedding. This has turned out to be a completely moot point, but I didn't get all starry-eyed like the other girls when they'd talk about finding your eternal companion. First, I'd think, well my parents are divorced and sometimes shit happens. Maybe eternity is not really the goal for me. I can't think of anything I want to do for eternity, nor any one person I'd want to spend eternity with. And my family was so dysfunctional and fractured, I couldn't see the thrill or allure of Families are Forever either.

So all of these things went into the mix, along with the sexual repression and denial of some of our most human qualities... I'm certain I would have never made it past college age in the church regardless of the circumstances. I struggled a little, but I could see that my situation was very clearly and obviously different from the other girls. They didn't come from broken homes; they weren't part-member families. They could fit their realities into the picture that the church painted for them. I could not and knew that I didn't have to, despite all the crap they tried to spoon feed us in seminary. I wonder sometimes, if the trauma in my family as a young child sort of set me up to be a little cynical and questioning, which is the very quality that enabled me to find the strength to follow my own path in the end. I knew I was never going to fit the mold, so I just broke it and kep' on truckin'.

[peter_mary]

(He's the first person who learned that sometimes, it's better to just not argue with me.)

The list of names includes Peter_Mary, who prefers not to get his butt kicked in a "smart-fight" with dogzilla! :o

We return you now to your regularly scheduled programming.

For what it's worth, the issue of "female subordination", whether sexual or otherwise, was a big factor for me in leaving the church, also. I just couldn't make sense out of a patriarchal model of heaven or eternity, particularly one in which women, even in their resurected state, were baby-making machines, while men got to be, well...God. It bugged the hell out me that the Church viewed my wife that way, and it bugged the hell out of me that my daughters would be subjected to that world view, too. So we got 'em out. My eldest is married--happyily so--to her best friend and an honest-to-goodness partner, but her anger toward the patriarchal tendencies of our local culture is VERY apparent, and it is indicative that she was harmed at a deep level by the Mo-messages she received while growing up. My youngest one will be spared that, since she was really only about seven when we started moving out. I hope so, anyway.

My hat's off to the many, many strong women on this forum who have risen above the nonsense and maintain a healthy sense of self... (I need a little ::tips hat:: smilie!) And the many, many strong men who realized they are stronger men in creating egalitarian relationships with the women in their lives. Patriarchy is, I believe, a system for cowards.

[Born Free]

Daryl,

I feel lucky that I was able to come out of it ok and still be a normal, functioning, sexually active adult. There were definitely times that were a struggle for me. I would listen to the lessons in YW and often wonder if something was wrong with me...sometimes I felt like something was wrong because of my "robust libido" and other times I felt like something was wrong with me because I never really felt guilty for not following "the rules."

Even before I decided to leave the church and never look back, I knew I could never fit the good mormon wife role. It's just not in my personality. Don't get me wrong, I still want to settle down someday and get married and have a family, but I will never be someone's submissive wife. I will never be second to my husband and my marriage will never be second to god or any religion.

If I had to make a list of my issues with the mormon church, their views on sex, women as sexual beings, and sexual relationships (in and out of marriage) would be in the top 3. This is a great topic for me because I actually have experiences to share...and I'm not afraid of anyone here judging me.

-rainangel
Rainangel & 'Zilla,

Thanks both for giving voice to that. I wonder sometimes if the anger some women express in midlife that can explode in things like a marriage breakup, is in part fuelled by that early shutdown and self-denial. (I am not discounting anything contributed by their spouse there!)

Assuming someone experiences tension, but then collapses back into the subservient role as the path of least resistance, then that increases the chance of a later breakout, when the psych wakes from its slumber. It probably also increases the likelihood that when the wake-up occurs it will be more untidy.

Sad process!

So all hail to the gutsy women in this forum. Certainly as our girls hit teenage years a factor feeding into our readiness to move away was the wimpy model of femininity on offer - and wimpy is not a word I would use to describe our girls.

Rainangel, I am interested to hear what you wanted to share that you felt might inform this discussion.

Daryl

PS: Talking of gutsy gals, how about Bindy Irwin's piece at her Dad's memorial service?

[puff]

It means that I think the missionaries would surely think that attitude is evil! Especially the sister missionaries.they might get relieved of a terrible burden hanging round with puff , what a beautiful thing to realize that sex can be whatever two people agree on , anything at all , as long as your both happy , this is such a wonderful revelation to me , i worship god with my sexuality , not in despite of it ,

cool breezes wisper thru the tree tops ,
the earth is damp were we lay , amongst the fallen leaves , in the cool of springs autumn , here we are , in tune with earths creation ,no guilt in are earthly pleasure , how free , to worship are creator with the bodies he gave , we know no sin , only love , and longing , belonging ,in are world of warm lust, where emotions entwine, in never ending strains of white pubecent sensuality .....

[free thinker]

cool breezes wisper thru the tree tops ,
the earth is damp were we lay , amongst the fallen leaves , in the cool of springs autumn , here we are , in tune with earths creation ,no guilt in are earthly pleasure , how free , to worship are creator with the bodies he gave , we know no sin , only love , and longing , belonging ,in are world of warm lust, where emotions entwine, in never ending strains of white pubecent sensuality .....
__________________


Perfect!!

ft

[free thinker]

but I will never be someone's submissive wife. I will never be second to my husband and my marriage will never be second to god or any religion.


There are plenty of men who are fine with this. Just make sure you link up with one when the time comes. You will know!

ft

[puff]

but I will never be someone's submissive wife. I will never be second to my husband and my marriage will never be second to god or any religion.


There are plenty of men who are fine with this. Just make sure you link up with one when the time comes. You will know!

fti think in this instance we are looking at a god who becomes an intimate part of our sexual exsperience , not a dominate overbearing lord of abuse and rejection