Hey You TBMs - Why so conditional?

[silverfox]

Today we received an invitation to hubby's sister's daughter's baptism. THEY LIVE IN ARIZONA. We never hear from them often but once word of our "apostacy" was out we started getting Mo religious Xmas cards with temples and shit all over them. Now we get this invitation to their daugther's baptism. Like we would even consider traveling there for THAT. (don't bother to invite us just for a visit) Her son was baptized and we weren't invited to that.

I just don't understand the mentality. I don't get it. Why can't we get a letter here and there or a phone call to just shoot the breeze? Why is it that opportunities of communication are only centered around CHURCH themes and events?

It's not like hubby is close with his family...he is pretty much the "black sheep". So it is bothersome to get these kinds of things from them only because we are "inactive". Prior to our inactivity they pretty much left us alone just assuming we were hot and heavy in church. They didn't ask and we didn't offer. They just assumed we were good little Mos. But now that I came "out" we get bombarded with church crap from them. Emails with articles attached, etc.

I should mention that my mother in law is not old enough to be my mother. There are only 10 yrs in age difference. (hubby is 8 yrs younger than me) My FIL however is old enough. So I don't have the typical "daugther in law" relationship with them. Although they do try to treat us like two year olds. It doesn't work.

Thanks for letting me wah wah wah wah wah.

[miss taken]

Silverfox, I got a years subscription to the Ensign, various emails with GA talks attached!!! To give my friends their due, they honestly feel that my ETERNAL SALVATION is at STAKE, and they are trying to SAVE MY SOUL. That really is the way they see it. According to the LDS world view you have knowingly, after having the spirit confirm to you that the church is true, rebelled from GOD which means that your salvation is in great jeapordy unless you return to the fold.

That's the way it is viewed, and many view it in sincerity and love.

Can't you take it that they care about you and this is their way of showing it.

My LDS friends must now think I am beyond redemption because they have pretty much given up, and of course are extremely unhappy for me to mention some of the seedier sides of the Mormon Past, and to question their faith too much.

Infact one of my LDS friends makes sure to delete pretty much everything I send to her that questions anything about church culture, practice, theology.

(We are still good friends though!!!)

So maybe we have just called an entente cordiale (on the subject of religion)!!!!!

[peter_mary]

We never hear from them often but once word of our "apostacy" was out we started getting Mo religious Xmas cards with temples and shit all over them.

Man, I wouldn't even TALK to people who sent me Christmas cards with shit all over them. What are these people thinking? :D

Seriously, I agree with the gripe you have, AND with Miss Taken's thinking. On the one hand, all you want is an authentic relationship with people in your family. On the other hand, they are really worried, not only for your salvation, but also their responsibility to you...their own salvation is on the line if they don't warn you. What I've found is there is no effective way to relieve them of that burden...I've tried.

I actually sat down with my Bishop a few years back on one of the rare occassions that we happened to talk since my release as his First Counselor. The purpose of the meeting was to lay a guilt trip on us about tithing, and promising us that we could have great callings in the ward if we just paid. (I could go OFF on that tangent for a LONG time, but suffice it to say, I wish I'd figured that out YEARS ago...) Anyway, he confessed that he was really worried about us, and I tried to assure him at great length that there was nothing to worry about...our family was in a great place, our marriage was rock-solid, our lives were rich and happy and more fulfilled...and he just shook his head because he knew in his heart that I was selling myself short on the big picture.

Sigh...

There's no way for him to understand. And the real burden of it all is that I DO understand him...I've BEEN there. I've walked those miles in his shoes. But he's never walked 'em in mine. So it's a looking glass going one way...I see into his world, but he is blind to mine.

I would guess the same about your family, Silverfox.

It's hard to be so thoroughly misunderstood, especially when you feel like you have so much goin' on.

And don't send those Christmas cards along to the rest of us...we don't want to see 'em. Or the ones with the shit on 'em... :D

Paul

[silverfox]

Heeee Paul you crack me up. My frustration is all about it being genuine. These people don't even call to see their GRANDDAUGHTER who is 10. They don't make any effort to be grand parents or even parents to us. They don't feel like family. So when I start getting this kind of stuff I just have to scratch my head. Why not make the effort in other areas? What's your granddaughter's favorite color? What grade is she in? What color are her eyes? What does she like? What does she want to be when she grows up? See, they know NONE of this. There efforts are all church related. I hate it! They don't know us.

I know there is nothing I can do to change it. That is where my frustration comes in. All I can do is learn to control my level of frustration, grieve for the grandparents my daughter will never have and let it go.

Maybe I need to send out one of those yearly sappy family letters to everyone so they know we are fine and happy and they can stop putting our names on the temple prayer rolls. :Crazy:

I have made it clear to them that I would prefer to hear from them on a neutral basis so it's not like they aren't aware how frustrating it makes us. I've asked for them to stop emailing stories especially to my 10 yo. But they still do. I monitor her email. It's all about respect, IMO. And sincerity. And I'm not feeling either from them so no, I can't stand that they "care" about me and that's their way of showing it.

Wah wah wah wah. :D

[nikki]

Heeee Paul you crack me up. My frustration is all about it being genuine. These people don't even call to see their GRANDDAUGHTER who is 10. They don't make any effort to be grand parents or even parents to us. They don't feel like family. So when I start getting this kind of stuff I just have to scratch my head. Why not make the effort in other areas? What's your granddaughter's favorite color? What grade is she in? What color are her eyes? What does she like? What does she want to be when she grows up? See, they know NONE of this. There efforts are all church related. I hate it! They don't know us.

I know there is nothing I can do to change it. That is where my frustration comes in. All I can do is learn to control my level of frustration, grieve for the grandparents my daughter will never have and let it go.

Maybe I need to send out one of those yearly sappy family letters to everyone so they know we are fine and happy and they can stop putting our names on the temple prayer rolls. :Crazy:

I have made it clear to them that I would prefer to hear from them on a neutral basis so it's not like they aren't aware how frustrating it makes us. I've asked for them to stop emailing stories especially to my 10 yo. But they still do. I monitor her email. It's all about respect, IMO. And sincerity. And I'm not feeling either from them so no, I can't stand that they "care" about me and that's their way of showing it.

Wah wah wah wah. :D

I was not going to chime in too much, but after reading your posting I felt for you SilverFox. It is not about 'respect' with TBM's it is about control. Your are not falling in line, and though the contacts, and the lack of 'proper' and healthy family interaction, it is an attempt to influence and control.

I just got off the phone with my daughter, and I tried not to pull my hair out too much. What nightmares the TBM family members are and how they attempt to manipulation minds and behaviors, I sure hope she is able to escape them, for her own sake!

SilverFox you stated it maybe more clearly than you understood, it is all about respect, respect for the rights of others, respect for what belongs to others, respect for others to have a right to think and feel they wish, without degrading, name calling and discrediting, that is something many TBM's do not understand, it is not in the belief system or culture.

You are very right also, one must accept that which they have little control over, you cannot give your children the type of grandparents you would like, I could not either. Greive and accept the loss of the dream, of the type of relationships one would have liked.

At least your husband is the the 'black sheep' and does not go along with it all, what if he did?

The secret to the message below, Some one told me I have been very patient in my suffering.... my patience it up now, by the way. My anger is on the off beat side however, like the one person who got a mall survey done and the results faxed back found out ( too bad people lied about how I get angry, so when the surveys hit people it's the last thing they expect!). I hear the guy about pooped in his pants when he got the survey results! I just thought, don't make me angry! :D lol

I've been hit with a enough of lies to last a life time. Next I might put the dang recording on the internet, boy would that ever give them a run! :p

Best to you Silver Fox.

By the way next Christmas send out a family news letter with all kinds of goopy ex-mo stuff on it, great pictures of your family having a enjoyable time together on Sunday, etc., and write how great your family weekends are together, go on, and on, and on, bet the goopy TBM stuff would end! (but they may never write you again either!!

[tjohnson]

Today we received an invitation to hubby's sister's daughter's baptism. THEY LIVE IN ARIZONA. We never hear from them often but once word of our "apostacy" was out we started getting Mo religious Xmas cards with temples and shit all over them. Now we get this invitation to their daugther's baptism. Like we would even consider traveling there for THAT. (don't bother to invite us just for a visit) Her son was baptized and we weren't invited to that.


After reading this the thought just popped into my head... we need to design and have printed "PostMormon" Christmas cards for this next season. :D

We could have a very nice front picture and then a very nice quote or story of some type inside with the "www.postmormon.org" at the bottom of the card inside.

Maybe a story about how life is so much better outside of the fish tank. It could be very professional and very "to the point". :D

What does everyone think?

[noodle]

After reading this the thought just popped into my head... we need to design and have printed "PostMormon" Christmas cards for this next season. :D

We could have a very nice front picture and then a very nice quote or story of some type inside with the "www.postmormon.org" at the bottom of the card inside.

Maybe a story about how life is so much better outside of the fish tank. It could be very professional and very "to the point". :D

What does everyone think?


OOOOOO...I LIKE that idea! Any graphic artists around? We get the temple Christmas cards each year from the ward and from the stake. Maybe we can start a new thread with ideas for Post-Mo Christmas cards. Maybe a picture of the SL temple with the angel moroni playing a jaw harp or something...something subtle but funny.

Silverfox, it is amazing how transparent some people are. The bottom line is this...

THEY JUST DON'T GET IT!!!!

[Born Free]

I (insert name) _______________ hereby acknowledge to (insert TBM family members names) _______________ that I am familiar with your beliefs that if I am not an active and worthy member of your faith (COJCOLDS) that I will be exempted from the Celestial Kingdom, and that, assuming that you have all done all the is necessary for you to achieve said state, then you will be in a place that I cannot be, in the post-mortal state. I fully respect that from your perspective, and all that you have been taught, that may be a fearful proposition and that the prospect of never being with us in the afterlife may cause you distress.

Following from that, I can understand that you believe that you show love for us by making ongoing efforts to influence us to save our eternal lives, by changing our behaviour to make you feel more comfortable and to make you acceptable to your God.

We hereby advise in wiriting that our arrival at a another belief system as to what constitues a moral and worthwhile existence in this life, and what awaits in the post-mortal state, was not done easily or lightly and what we now believe is at substantial divergence from your beliefs. You may believe that we are wrong. Obviously, we do not agree.

Therefore, this document is to absolve you of any responsibility in this and the afterlife for what you may perceive as a failure to persuade us to see the error of our ways, and to return 'to the flock'. It follows that we declare to (insert what powers you believe exist in the Universe) that we have made our decision in full mindfullness and congnisance of what some people believe are the consequences of same.

We believe in a power whose greatest call is to self-integrity, to be all of who we might be; not to be cowered by fear or domination, not to retreat to the apparent comfort of the belief that if in following a leader we do wrong, we are absolved of responsibility on account of our subservience or ignorance.

We would hope that this absolution will enable you to let go of any anxiety that you are responsible for our Salvation, freeing you thereby to focus more fully on your own.

One thing we do desire to make clear is that we do believe in the love of families, particularly ones that express love through respect for others difference. We hope that this absolution frees you from any lingering doubt that we can be "saved" by your standards, thereby making you more free to love unconditionally, a belief that I know your Faith speaks of with regularlity.



____________________ ___________
Sign name Date

________________________
Print name

[silverfox]

Sturg - that was awesome. I may have to find the guts to send that out. Wouldn't that just be a kicker????? Woooohooooo! Actually they would all just laugh at this "silly ex mo". But who cares. I like the thought of putting that out there "for the record".

I like the idea of having Xmas cards with the www.postmormon.org link strategically placed between the list of our Sunday activities and photos of the home improvements, piano lessons, dance lessons, family group gym fees, and all the other very worthwhile family activitiies the 10% raise we gave ourselves has come in use for. Smiles at amusement parks, laughter around a campfire, splashes at the pool, and photos of all the dogs that extra money enabled me to foster over the past two years.

Yeah, life is good. Thanks, folks for the reminder!

[silverfox]

After reading this the thought just popped into my head... we need to design and have printed "PostMormon" Christmas cards for this next season. :D

We could have a very nice front picture and then a very nice quote or story of some type inside with the "www.postmormon.org" at the bottom of the card inside.

Maybe a story about how life is so much better outside of the fish tank. It could be very professional and very "to the point". :D

What does everyone think?

Oh, yeah...this is a cool idea! A great fundraiser idea!!!!! Buy your Post Mo cards here!!!! We could come up with catchy sayings...humorous and otherwise. With some very interesting photos. Yep, I love it, love it, love it. My head is spinning with ideas!

[silverfox]

SilverFox you stated it maybe more clearly than you understood, it is all about respect, respect for the rights of others, respect for what belongs to others, respect for others to have a right to think and feel they wish, without degrading, name calling and discrediting, that is something many TBM's do not understand, it is not in the belief system or culture.



I think next time I get frustrated over this piddly TBM stuff I will start singing R E S P E C T....give it to me, give it to me.......YEAH! It could be our theme song.

[lsands]

I've been thinking about this concept of "love" and relationships among Mormons lately. While the church teaches incessantly about "love at home", "families are forever", etc., many seem not to know what LOVE really is, nor do they seem to feel it. They don't give you the time of day, Silverfox, but if you leave Mo'ism, they "love" you and are concerned for your eternal soul? That isn't about love (although they think it is), it's about reducing their own anxiety.

In Mormonism, family and love are so much about activities, not relationships or feelings. There is so much emphasis on going into a certain building in order to have an "eternal relationship". But how many of these "forever families" can't stand each other? How many of us diligently did the things we were told we needed to do to go to the temple because in our hearts we yearned for this kind of love, and were willing to pay the price we were given as the cost?

The definition of "love" is so screwed up that people don't really know what it is. How terribly SAD! I sense the great loneliness and confusion of so many who are unable to love or be loved authentically because they've been given this load of b***sh*t and told that this is what love is! Most Mormons are truly sincere in wanting loving, lasting relationships with their family. But the map they've been given doesn't lead there; it takes them into meaningless, endless circles.

I'm feeling beyond my anger here to enormous sadness for the waste and the great disappointment of so many good people who try so hard. I guess the sadness is for how hard I tried---with mixed success---as well.
Laraine

[silverfox]

I've been thinking about this concept of "love" and relationships among Mormons lately. While the church teaches incessantly about "love at home", "families are forever", etc., many seem not to know what LOVE really is, nor do they seem to feel it. They don't give you the time of day, Silverfox, but if you leave Mo'ism, they "love" you and are concerned for your eternal soul? That isn't about love (although they think it is), it's about reducing their own anxiety.

In Mormonism, family and love are so much about activities, not relationships or feelings. There is so much emphasis on going into a certain building in order to have an "eternal relationship". But how many of these "forever families" can't stand each other? How many of us diligently did the things we were told we needed to do to go to the temple because in our hearts we yearned for this kind of love, and were willing to pay the price we were given as the cost?

The definition of "love" is so screwed up that people don't really know what it is. How terribly SAD! I sense the great loneliness and confusion of so many who are unable to love or be loved authentically because they've been given this load of b***sh*t and told that this is what love is! Most Mormons are truly sincere in wanting loving, lasting relationships with their family. But the map they've been given doesn't lead there; it takes them into meaningless, endless circles.

I'm feeling beyond my anger here to enormous sadness for the waste and the great disappointment of so many good people who try so hard. I guess the sadness is for how hard I tried---with mixed success---as well.
Laraine

I never thought of it this way. Amazing. And all too true!!!! Thanks for the post. I am sure I will reference it many times as a reminder of the mentality.

[nikki]

Sturg - that was awesome. I may have to find the guts to send that out. Wouldn't that just be a kicker????? Woooohooooo! Actually they would all just laugh at this "silly ex mo". But who cares. I like the thought of putting that out there "for the record".

I like the idea of having Xmas cards with the www.postmormon.org link strategically placed between the list of our Sunday activities and photos of the home improvements, piano lessons, dance lessons, family group gym fees, and all the other very worthwhile family activitiies the 10% raise we gave ourselves has come in use for. Smiles at amusement parks, laughter around a campfire, splashes at the pool, and photos of all the dogs that extra money enabled me to foster over the past two years.

Yeah, life is good. Thanks, folks for the reminder!

Silver Fox, the term I use is 'creative anger", it has it's own magical powers. I have found when one cannot openly speak and have their expression of concern, mistreatment, or an action which bothers and concerns them accepted and addressed, creative anger is often much better than 'getting in their face'

The many years of chruch service I had the 'blessing' of having. I found there were several merging personality profiles which 'church' experience seemed to develop.

1. the 'glory guppers'

2. the 'shinning stars'

3. the 'snit wits'

And dealing with these personalities could be very challenging.

I am working on writing some things right now, but later I'll post more on this observation.

See, creative anger can be a very postive, and a down right humorous way of handling things!

Glad you focused back in on how lucky you are, many do not have what you have now, and I would start gathering those pictures of your family fun, for a Christmas special edition. :D

[noodle]

but if you leave Mo'ism, they "love" you and are concerned for your eternal soul? That isn't about love (although they think it is), it's about reducing their own anxiety.
Laraine
Very well stated Laraine! I have always chuckled at the "love the sinner" notion. A lot of lip service is given to "loving" the "sinner" when in reality, it more accurately should be described as authoritative, condescending, patronizing, bigotted, etc.

mamajama

[gracie]

I (insert name) _______________ hereby acknowledge to (insert TBM family members names) _______________ that I am familiar with your beliefs that if I am not an active and worthy member of your faith (COJCOLDS) that I will be exempted from the Celestial Kingdom, and that, assuming that you have all done all the is necessary for you to achieve said state, then you will be in a place that I cannot be, in the post-mortal state. I fully respect that from your perspective, and all that you have been taught, that may be a fearful proposition and that the prospect of never being with us in the afterlife may cause you distress.

Following from that, I can understand that you believe that you show love for us by making ongoing efforts to influence us to save our eternal lives, by changing our behaviour to make you feel more comfortable and to make you acceptable to your God.

We hereby advise in wiriting that our arrival at a another belief system as to what constitues a moral and worthwhile existence in this life, and what awaits in the post-mortal state, was not done easily or lightly and what we now believe is at substantial divergence from your beliefs. You may believe that we are wrong. Obviously, we do not agree.

Therefore, this document is to absolve you of any responsibility in this and the afterlife for what you may perceive as a failure to persuade us to see the error of our ways, and to return 'to the flock'. It follows that we declare to (insert what powers you believe exist in the Universe) that we have made our decision in full mindfullness and congnisance of what some people believe are the consequences of same.

We believe in a power whose greatest call is to self-integrity, to be all of who we might be; not to be cowered by fear or domination, not to retreat to the apparent comfort of the belief that if in following a leader we do wrong, we are absolved of responsibility on account of our subservience or ignorance.

We would hope that this absolution will enable you to let go of any anxiety that you are responsible for our Salvation, freeing you thereby to focus more fully on your own.

One thing we do desire to make clear is that we do believe in the love of families, particularly ones that express love through respect for others difference. We hope that this absolution frees you from any lingering doubt that we can be "saved" by your standards, thereby making you more free to love unconditionally, a belief that I know your Faith speaks of with regularlity.



____________________ ___________
Sign name Date

________________________
Print name




I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I use this?!
gracie

[Born Free]

I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I use this?!
gracie

It's out there in the public domain, as much created by hearing what you guys were saying, as anything else.

I'd be keen to see what refinements or additions others would add to nuance it!

Daryl

[silverfox]

I've decided to create a family blog. I will share the link with hubby's TBM family and my family of course but none of them are members. I will post my daily thoughts and activities. Family members can check it daily or whenever and get a real inside peek of how our lives are now. They will be disappointed to find that we are NOT miserable.

FYI - a blog is short for "weblog". Which is like an online journal. Free and fun. And a great way to communicate with family and friends. You can allow comments so they can post their thoughts.

I don't want to wait to send a letter or email or that kind of exchange. This way it's like they are reading my journal about my family and all the great times and experiences we share EVEN ON SUNDAY!!!!

[jmkm]

I've decided to create a family blog. I will share the link with hubby's TBM family and my family of course but none of them are members. I will post my daily thoughts and activities. Family members can check it daily or whenever and get a real inside peek of how our lives are now. They will be disappointed to find that we are NOT miserable.

FYI - a blog is short for "weblog". Which is like an online journal. Free and fun. And a great way to communicate with family and friends. You can allow comments so they can post their thoughts.

I don't want to wait to send a letter or email or that kind of exchange. This way it's like they are reading my journal about my family and all the great times and experiences we share EVEN ON SUNDAY!!!!

There is a cool site called blogspot.com (I think) Anyway, it has a really simplified format for doing this sort of thing. I am trying it out, but I'm doing it just for myself for now...maybe I'll share later. ;)