What now? (cont.)

[jamech]

Hello all. In my brief story posted a few weeks ago I advised this group of my new membership in this community as a result of sending in my resignation letter. While there are many events that have transpired including my children disowning me and ignoring my reasons for leaving and instead finding make up reasons for my Satanic move, I want to make an observation and pose a question to this community:
First, I note a number of angry people who spend a lot of their time here just venting and continuing the assault on the Church. I understand their feelings and have gone thru that.
However I would like to find a group who wants to move on and find Christ-oriented experiences to make the rest of our lives meaningful. There is a lot to talk about as to which if any church offers the most, or none or ? What to do with our lives is most critical now. Any interest? Golfer
I'm starting a new thread on this, Golfer, because I think it's a great topic...hope you don't mind. This post has gotten me thinking...."Why do I come here to this forum? What is it that I want?" You are absolutely right, Golfer. Finding meaningful experiences at this point is critical. The part that's a little more difficult is finding what is important and meaningful to you. I can see that some discussion in this area could be a good thing in helping us "floundering fish" in finding some ideas and philosophies that we can connect with and ultimately find some peace. I want that too. You (and I) have gave up ALOT when we took this step and a lifetime of "church bashing" is a poor substitute for the sense of community, purpose, and connection we felt in the church.

Now, in defense of the forum...I have a very dear friend whose brother was murdered by his son (her nephew). You can imagine what that would do to the psyche's of those close to him. My friend was reeling and in a very unsettled state of mind. Her husband, a bishop, told her he didn't want her to talk about it. I'm sure you can guess the course of events. They are no longer married and she (and all their children) are no longer in the church.

When I left last January, initially it was very important to me to keep my connections with the church and the people. Even though I didn't believe it, I didn't want to be cast out (murdered). I convinced those around me (and myself) that the church was good, that I wanted my kids raised in it, and that I respected and loved it, but that I just couldn't believe it. I had no desire to be like those, deceived by the devil, where all they can do is bash. I was bigger than that. Well I learned pretty quick that if you don't believe, you can't be part of the club. However, I dutifully suppressed any anger and resentment to "keep the peace". As you probably know, this couldn't last. I was a pathological mess!! I felt so incredibly hurt by the whole thing (I really didn't see it coming). I began to withdraw from everyone to try to protect myself. It was at that point that I was truly alone. It wasn't until I was able to express my hurt, anger, and resentment that I could begin to heal. It was also important to me to see the true nature of the thing that hurt me. I know, it doesn't seem to make sense. I needed to validate why I felt so betrayed. That wasn't hard to do. The opening of "Pandora's Box" was a very important part of being able to gain some perspective and begin to live independently of the church. I think this is an ongoing process. After 40 years in the church it would be unrealistic to be free of its influence in just a year or so. I'm actually surprised at how helpful it has been to post on this board. Having a safe place to vent has made it easier to accept the things I can't change in my own reality. I'm more accepting and respectful of where my husband is in his own journey. I'm also able to talk more freely with my children and not feel quite as threatened by the church's influence on them.

OK. Now in response to your question: What now? One of the hardest things for me has been the loss of a community of "like-minded" people ("kindred spirits"). Oh, how I long for that!!!! I can easily see how people who leave the church quickly jump right into another similar set of beliefs. After I left, I began to research heavily into different Christian sects as well as exploring eastern thought such as Buddahism and Hinduism. I've also been intrigued by gnosticism, early Christianity, and native american spirituality. I've found a lot of ideas and philosophy that I can identify with, but no particular "set" of beliefs that I can align myself with comfortably. I found there is no church of "jamech" (or "golfer").

I don't think I'll find that community of "like minded" people on this forum either. These people are just too darn diverse!! (Don't believe me?...just look at some of the posts by free thinker!) ;) But what I have found here is people who can support me on my own journey and celebrate with me along the way.

In your post you wrote "I would like to find a group who wants to move on and find Christ-oriented experiences to make the rest of our lives meaningful." I would also like to move on and explore meaningful thought....but not necessarily "Christ-oriented". To be "Christ-oriented", I would need to accept a huge belief system before I could enter into the discussion. I've worked too long and hard to free myself from a prescribed set of beliefs. However, I'm sure there are others out there that may be interested in this type of discussion. (OK all you lurkers....here's your chance to respond!) :)

I would however, be very interested in discussing religion, philosophy, and psychology across the board where acceptance of a particular system is not a prerequisite. I'd love exploring topics such as christianity, early christianity, existentialism, gnosticism, zen, eastern religion, native american spirituality etc. Any takers?

[peter_mary]

Jamech,

Thank you so much for the endorsement of the forum! I loved what you had to say, and heard myself in those sentiments throughout your post.

Here's a little insight I've gained after hanging out here for a couple of years: Most people find that PostMormon.org is a place to move "through", not stay. The purpose it serves for the majority of people (so it appears), is a safe place to begin their healing process. They come here, they read a lot, they talk and write, they vent, they express their hurt and concerns...and then one day, they realize they don't need to come back. The work for them is done, and they're ready to move on to other things.

I celebrate that function of this community! And though I miss a lot of the voices I've enjoyed in the past, I love the fact that this is a stopping place for people on their journey away from Mormonism.

There is something "after" this experience. Who knows what it will be for each of us individually. But an important part of getting to "what comes next" is dealing with "what just happened." We have been members of an organization that spent a tremendous amount of time and money (much of it our own!) structuring our thinking in deep ways. You don't recover from that by signing a letter and never looking back. Those feelings of deception, the need to redefine, the questions, the concerns, the hurts...all of those are buried deep within our individual psyches, and they really do need to be sorted through, examined, talked about and dispositioned before we can effectively "move on."

So that's why we're here.

Me? I stay here not because I'm still working through the hurt. I'm way past that, thankfully. I stay here because I continue to be intellectually stimulated by you all, but mostly because I hope I can play a supportive role in assisting the "battered and tired sojourners" who pass through here to recover their lives, their minds, their passions and hopes for a life of fulfillment beyond the Church they have left. It's how I give back to the universe, because there were people and on-line resources that were there for me when I needed them.

I expect there are others here who see themselves in that same role.

And Jamech, there are always takers who like to talk about the various religious traditions. Many here have studied extensively one or all of the ones you mentioned...I challenge you to toss something out there on the table, and see if you get some takers!

[cultschism]

I have been genuinely interested in seeing how diverse the course of action for different ex-mormons has been in my limited amount of observation. Recovery, and the road that takes you there, seems to mean something a little different for everyone. I understand that some want to join another religion in order to become a part of another community or find a new way to worship Jesus. I never felt those needs after Mormonism, I surprised myself by feeling content with being agnostic for now. I threw out the idea of organized religion pretty quickly after leaving Mormonism.

I have experienced more "healing" from just participating and reading ex-mormon forums than from any one other thing. I lurked for about a year before I even registered to participate, but even just reading about others experiences helped me to realize that I wasn't some kind of weird anomaly by leaving the church.

The eastern philosophies have always intrigued me but then philosophy in general always has. I don't have much to offer in experience or knowledge in the various areas of belief, I'm probably one of the least experienced in those areas on this board but I always enjoy learning about them.

[helemon]

I would however, be very interested in discussing religion, philosophy, and psychology across the board where acceptance of a particular system is not a prerequisite. I'd love exploring topics such as christianity, early christianity, existentialism, gnosticism, zen, eastern religion, native american spirituality etc. Any takers?

It has been a while since I looked into various religions. I remember that I liked some of the Sikh beliefs but don't like some of the customs like not cutting your hair and not shaving. I like the Budhist teachings except I don't like the idea that salvation comes through not becoming attached to things in this life. I think some things are worth being attached to or desiring. I also don't like the idea of heaven being the extinguishing of self. I like the complexity and multifaceted nature of the hindu pantheon. It seems much deeper and richer than the greek or roman myths. I find some value in the Taoist views of the universe. But with all of these I am but a dabbler not an expert.

[puff]

whilst a mormon i always had leanings to born again religious ideas and thought that would progress into that if falling away from the church .
as it happened that never eventuated and as i left the church i fell away from religion altogether , that kind of shocked me .
as time has gone on i have becime deeply interested in evolution , altho it does not answer questions about life after death it does explain the mechanics of creation , and its quite a spiritual revelation to know why things actually happen as they do .
for instance mamals always have a dominent male leader who,s authority goes unquestioned until another knocks him of his throne .
we see this model constantly forming in human society .
the god priest king tyrant actually has its origins in the animal kingdom , theres lots of other things like that as well . seeing humans as talking animals is quite a revelation , we can see where lots of miscreant human behavior actually comes from ,best of all is at least theres something mechanical to anylise , not just hyperthetical visionary stuff

[helemon]

for instance mammals always have a dominant male leader who's authority goes unquestioned until another knocks him of his throne .

I think there are a lot of mammals where the males are run out of town until it is time to mate because they pose a threat to the children. Elephants are an example of this. It's the eldest female who is the head of an Elephant pack. Similarly mother bears drive the males out of her territory because they might kill her cubs. Wolf packs have a alpha male and alpha female pair I believe. I think some chimp species are matriarchal. So I don't think your assertion that male dominant leadership is the norm with all mammals.

[miss taken]

:D I think there are a lot of mammals where the males are run out of town until it is time to mate because they pose a threat to the children. Elephants are an example of this. It's the eldest female who is the head of an Elephant pack. Similarly mother bears drive the males out of her territory because they might kill her cubs. Wolf packs have a alpha male and alpha female pair I believe. I think some chimp species are matriarchal. So I don't think your assertion that male dominant leadership is the norm with all mammals.

Don't forget the Bonobo's!!!:D (very interesting mammalian group...)

http://www.sandiegozoo.org/animalbytes/t-bonobo.html

Females rule..what ho!!!

[helemon]

:D

Don't forget the Bonobo's!!!:D (very interesting mammalian group...)

http://www.sandiegozoo.org/animalbytes/t-bonobo.html

Females rule..what ho!!!

Yes but they are quickly going extinct unfortunately.

[miss taken]

So it seems Helemon.

Pity.

[jamech]

It has been a while since I looked into various religions. I remember that I liked some of the Sikh beliefs but don't like some of the customs like not cutting your hair and not shaving. I like the Budhist teachings except I don't like the idea that salvation comes through not becoming attached to things in this life. I think some things are worth being attached to or desiring. I also don't like the idea of heaven being the extinguishing of self. I like the complexity and multifaceted nature of the hindu pantheon. It seems much deeper and richer than the greek or roman myths. I find some value in the Taoist views of the universe. But with all of these I am but a dabbler not an expert.
This is interesting, helemon, because I went through a lot of the same patterns (except I didn't look into Sikh) I'm also interested in Hinduism. One of the things that stuck with me as I researched this religion is the idea of "Many paths to the same summit" I like what the nineteenth century saint, Ramakrishna said:
God has made different religions to suit different aspirations, times, and countries. All doctrines are only so many paths; but a path is by no means God Himself. Indeed, one can reach God if one follows any of the paths with wholehearted devotion...Bow down and worship where others kneel, for where so many have adored, the kind Lord must manifest himself, for he is all mercy. People partition off their lands by means of boundraries, but no one can partition off the all-embracing sky overhead. The indivisible sky surrounds all and includes all. So it is in ignorance that people say. "My religion is the only one, my religion is the best."
Carl Jung, a major Swiss psychologist of the 20th century contends that for the most part a healthy psyche is dependent upon something to believe in: "religion". The religion should suit the culture however. For example: it would be wrong to force a people out of their own spirituality like the early settlers tried to do with Native Americans. Then there are always those misfits that don't fit in any set. Many of you, my friends, are in this camp; as am I.

For me having the answers (unless they can be scientifically proven) is troubling, it feels like lies. My husband, however, is different. He wants the comfort and security of having the path laid out for him. All he has to do is follow it. The prospect of "not knowing", for him, is terrifying. This is the reason, I feel, that religion survives in spite of all its vices. Is it right for us to try to convince people otherwise? Can mormonism be a legitimate path?

[Jeff_Ricks]

Carl Jung, a major Swiss psychologist of the 20th century contends that for the most part a healthy psyche is dependent upon something to believe in: "religion". The religion should suit the culture however. For example: it would be wrong to force a people out of their own spirituality like the early settlers tried to do with Native Americans. Then there are always those misfits that don't fit in any set. Many of you, my friends, are in this camp; as am I.I like Carl Jung and have a few books about him or by him. But I have to disagree a little with his statement. I'd say that a healthy psyche is dependent on a reasonably coherent worldview, not just on a religiously based worldview. I'm not religious nor do I align myself with a religion but, at least in my mind, I have a reasonably coherent worldview, which I think has been the basis for what to me feels like a reasonably healthy psyche. The bottom line for me is that I’m the happiest I’ve ever been in my life, and have less a fear of death than when my worldview was religiously based.

My twopennyworth (as our friend overseas, Misstaken, would say) ;)

Jeff

[free thinker]

I don't think I'll find that community of "like minded" people on this forum either. These people are just too darn diverse!! (Don't believe me?...just look at some of the posts by free thinker!) But what I have found here is people who can support me on my own journey and celebrate with me along the way.


Jamech

Your post is wonderful. And thank you for the compliment. :p
I am one of those who came here, left, and came back. I have no problem admitting that I have some work to do. I guess you could say I left post-mormonism but I just can't leave it alone. Also I am with P-M and want to help others through what was a very tough time for me.

I am a Free Thinker. I admire greatly a man named Robert Green Ingersoll. Probably the most prominent of free thinkers in history.

I consider myself a truth seeker. I am going to pick something up and carry it in my bag of beliefs as long as it can withstand the tests of reason. If it cannot, out of the bag it goes. I see no reason whatsoever to align myself with any religious organization or philosophy. I am going to live an eclectic life and borrow the good from them all. And when I find something in their system that can be harmful, I am going to assault it if I can. Especially if it hurts women and children!!!!!!!. Like polygamy and etc.

Now here are a couple of quotes for you Jamech.

" For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth- to know the worst and provide for it".

Patrick Henry


" The most formidable weapon against errors of any kind is reason".

Thomas Paine 1794


And finally:

" We are looking for the time when the useful shall be the honorable: and when REASON, throned upon the worlds brain, shall be THE KING OF KINGS, and GOD of GODS.

Robert Green Ingersoll.

I am a secularist, and a humanist, and a free thinker. My religion is a state of irreligion.


ft

[jamech]

Now here are a couple of quotes for you Jamech.

" For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth- to know the worst and provide for it".

Patrick Henry


" The most formidable weapon against errors of any kind is reason".

Thomas Paine 1794


And finally:

" We are looking for the time when the useful shall be the honorable: and when REASON, throned upon the worlds brain, shall be THE KING OF KINGS, and GOD of GODS.

Robert Green Ingersoll.

I am a secularist, and a humanist, and a free thinker. My religion is a state of irreligion.


ft
These quotes are wonderful!!! Too bad your religion is a state of irreligion....You'd make a great RS President! :duck:

[free thinker]

These quotes are wonderful!!! Too bad your religion is a state of irreligion....You'd make a great RS President!

I'm in! First chance I get we invite the Chip and Dale dancers!

Sisters tonight we are going to explore the idea of manhood. I hope you all brought your dollar bills. Let's turn down the lights and turn up the misic shall we?


Let's get this party started. ;)


ft

[dogzilla]

:: waves $20 ::

[jamech]

These quotes are wonderful!!! Too bad your religion is a state of irreligion....You'd make a great RS President!

I'm in! First chance I get we invite the Chip and Dale dancers!

Sisters tonight we are going to explore the idea of manhood. I hope you all brought your dollar bills. Let's turn down the lights and turn up the misic shall we?


Let's get this party started. ;)
ft
I laughed out loud at this! What a great way to start Conference Weekend! :p

[peter_mary]

Carl Jung, a major Swiss psychologist of the 20th century contends that for the most part a healthy psyche is dependent upon something to believe in: "religion". The religion should suit the culture however. For example: it would be wrong to force a people out of their own spirituality like the early settlers tried to do with Native Americans. Then there are always those misfits that don't fit in any set. Many of you, my friends, are in this camp; as am I.

For me having the answers (unless they can be scientifically proven) is troubling, it feels like lies. My husband, however, is different. He wants the comfort and security of having the path laid out for him. All he has to do is follow it. The prospect of "not knowing", for him, is terrifying. This is the reason, I feel, that religion survives in spite of all its vices. Is it right for us to try to convince people otherwise? Can mormonism be a legitimate path?
This is why Mormonism "is", at least in my mind. Religion springs from evolving culture (the axial age being a point in time that seemed to really take a quantum leap in this arena). Mormonism was one manifestation of that dynaimic, springing out of a more recent, though classic American paradigm (which continues to evolve closely to fundamental American idealism). In other words, Mormonism happened because people wanted it. It continues to happen because people, even in this modern cultural context, continue to choose it. It fills a cultural need.

It's also why I can't be TOO hard on Mormonism. I don't see it as really any different than any other institution...religious, secular, political, or academic. It fills a particular niche in the incredibly diverse human landscape. If it didn't successfully fulfill certain expectations, it would die on the vine. As long as it succeeds in that regard, it will flourish.

In that same vein, it makes me wonder what is looming on the religious horizon? Will there be new inovations, from new prophets, with new ideas, or has all the territory been mapped, and all that we can expect from now on is just a resorting of old ideas?

[Jeff_Ricks]

This is why Mormonism "is", at least in my mind. Religion springs from evolving culture (the axial age being a point in time that seemed to really take a quantum leap in this arena). Mormonism was one manifestation of that dynaimic, springing out of a more recent, though classic American paradigm (which continues to evolve closely to fundamental American idealism). In other words, Mormonism happened because people wanted it. It continues to happen because people, even in this modern cultural context, continue to choose it. It fills a cultural need.

It's also why I can't be TOO hard on Mormonism. I don't see it as really any different than any other institution...religious, secular, political, or academic. It fills a particular niche in the incredibly diverse human landscape. If it didn't successfully fulfill certain expectations, it would die on the vine. As long as it succeeds in that regard, it will flourish.

In that same vein, it makes me wonder what is looming on the religious horizon? Will there be new inovations, from new prophets, with new ideas, or has all the territory been mapped, and all that we can expect from now on is just a resorting of old ideas?I think we humans are gradually evolving other ways to fill the culture need that relgion fills -- more satisfying ways. As I see it, the culture need that religion fills is it answers questions about who we are and why we're here. But as science continues to provide more plausible answers for those questions the need to answer them with religion is lessening. I could be wrong but I think the percentage of people today who are religious is less than it was, say 500 years ago. I see no reason why the trend won't continue on into the future until we reach the point where religion just dissapears. Not gonna happen in my lifetime though! ;)

Jeff