A TBM apologetic response to a critical opinion of the LDS church in local newspaper.

[skeptic]

“To the person who wrote about the LDS Church basic tenets, you may have forgotten or did not know that any current or past leader of the church may have a revelation, which will allow the changing of the rules to fit current standards.”
The TBM goes on to admit “Nowadays many of the founders would now be in jail for the excesses they precipitated on the members..I am sure all the marriages performed by the bishops were with the consent of all involved”.

__________________________________________________ __


Now, let’s see if I understand correctly. Was the marrying of 14 year old girls, polygamy and marrying other men’s wives common in Joseph Smith’s time?

In the following [January 9, 1845. Thursday] entry from William Clayton’s diary he seems sure to point out that Diantha Farrs parents have no objections to giving her up for marriage. Clayton also seems concerned as to how Diantha feels becoming Clayton’s fifth wife. She was however rewarded with some great blessings.

“We went over to Brother [Winslow] Farrs to spend a little season together. Winslow Farr was married to Olive H. Freeman for time and all eternity. After which the seal of the covenant was put upon Diantha. The question was asked of each one present, did they freely give her up, and they all signified their willingness by saying they had no objections. There was present Winslow Farr her father and his wife. Also Loren Farr and Nancy his wife and William Walker and Olive his wife.”

“The blessings pronounced upon her head were great and one promise was that her seed should become numerous as the sands of the seashore. H.C.K[imball] gave her some very good advice afterward and she seems to feel well….”

(Emphasis added)



SoUtSkeptic

[helemon]

“To the person who wrote about the LDS Church basic tenets, you may have forgotten or did not know that any current or past leader of the church may have a revelation, which will allow the changing of the rules to fit current standards.”


God is the same yesterday today and forever. New and EVERLASTING covenant. RESTORATION of ALL things. Same gospel as existed at the time of Adam and the patriarchs. Isn't it funny that this TBM is saying that a prophet of God will preach doctrines according to what is acceptable to the gentile society at large rather than sticking with the revelations their prophets claimed came from God.


The TBM goes on to admit “Nowadays many of the founders would now be in jail for the excesses they precipitated on the members..I am sure all the marriages performed by the bishops were with the consent of all involved”.


I don't think Helen Mar Kimball was to thrilled with the idea. While I am sure some of his wives were flattered by his advances I seem to recall that there were others who did not enter into the marriage willingly but under pressure from parents. Did the husbands of the married women he married all consent? I think some did but others were away on missions at the time of the marriage.

[jamech]

“To the person who wrote about the LDS Church basic tenets, you may have forgotten or did not know that any current or past leader of the church may have a revelation, which will allow the changing of the rules to fit current standards.”
The TBM goes on to admit “Nowadays many of the founders would now be in jail for the excesses they precipitated on the members..I am sure all the marriages performed by the bishops were with the consent of all involved”.

__________________________________________________ __


Now, let’s see if I understand correctly. Was the marrying of 14 year old girls, polygamy and marrying other men’s wives common in Joseph Smith’s time?

In the following [January 9, 1845. Thursday] entry from William Clayton’s diary he seems sure to point out that Diantha Farrs parents have no objections to giving her up for marriage. Clayton also seems concerned as to how Diantha feels becoming Clayton’s fifth wife. She was however rewarded with some great blessings.

“We went over to Brother [Winslow] Farrs to spend a little season together. Winslow Farr was married to Olive H. Freeman for time and all eternity. After which the seal of the covenant was put upon Diantha. The question was asked of each one present, did they freely give her up, and they all signified their willingness by saying they had no objections. There was present Winslow Farr her father and his wife. Also Loren Farr and Nancy his wife and William Walker and Olive his wife.”

“The blessings pronounced upon her head were great and one promise was that her seed should become numerous as the sands of the seashore. H.C.K[imball] gave her some very good advice afterward and she seems to feel well….”
(Emphasis added)

This hit something with me, skeptic. My sister has been out of the church for years and has definitely had her share of knocks as a result. But she doesn't claim to have a lot of angry, resentful feelings toward the church. If anything, she has a very active indifference (if there is such a thing). Anyway, a few months ago she had the following dream:

She and I were sitting in a room with my girls, several of our sisters and other female family members. We were all waiting for our turn to enter the next room. In the next room were several men, whose job was to beat on us. Our dad, brothers, and my husband were also in the room.

One by one each women would go in and submit to the beating. The men in our family were very worried and concerned, but didn't feel that they could intervene. They nervously stood by just in case something got out of hand. My pregnant daughter went in just before my sister. They beat her sensless and didn't avoid her swollen belly.

Then it was my sister's turn. She began to enter, dutifully, but something in her snapped. She realized this was wrong!!!! She began to scream "This has to stop!! This has to stop!!!" She was making such a scene that the men in our family got embarrassed and left the room (only my husband stayed, clearly concerned). She woke herself up screaming.

I've wondered about this dream so much, because it just as easily could have been mine. Even when consciously we believe (even insist) that the church is honoring and protecting us, or is at least benign, I wonder what our subconscious is trying to say...:(

[skeptic]

helemon,

D&C 35: 1
LISTEN to the voice of the Lord your God, even Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, whose course is one eternal round, the same today as yesterday, and forever.


Man you rock! Running with your point “God is the same yesterday today and forever”. I’m reminded of the Sacred ordinances that are not to be changed or altered. I think it is safe to assume the Temple ceremony is comprised of Ordinances and Covenants. Many of us are aware of the major changes that occurred in the 1990 temple ordinances. I ran across the following teaching from LDS.org. Ordinances and Covenants and The Rule of Law.

SoUtSkeptic


Ordinances and Covenants
By Elder Dennis B. Neuenschwander
Of the Presidency of the Seventy Ensign, Aug. 2001, 20
Sacred ordinances and the divine authority to administer them did not begin with the Restoration of the gospel and the founding of the modern Church in 1830. The sacred ordinances of the gospel as requirements for salvation and exaltation were “instituted from before the foundation of the world.” They have always been an immutable part of the gospel. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles.”
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________
The Rule of Law
By President Marion G. Romney
Second Counselor in the First Presidency
Marion G. Romney, “The Rule of Law,” Ensign, Feb. 1973, 2
The Lord has said that “there is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
“And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.” (D&C 130:20–21.)
“That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin [sin being the breaking of the law], and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. …
“And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ [which is his gospel—the perfect law of liberty], must inherit another kingdom, …
“The law of Christ” is all-inclusive. It concerns not only rules that shall govern beyond the grave, but also the law of nature here and now—local, national, and international.

[skeptic]

This hit something with me, skeptic. My sister has been out of the church for years and has definitely had her share of knocks as a result. But she doesn't claim to have a lot of angry, resentful feelings toward the church. If anything, she has a very active indifference (if there is such a thing). Anyway, a few months ago she had the following dream:

She and I were sitting in a room with my girls, several of our sisters and other female family members. We were all waiting for our turn to enter the next room. In the next room were several men, whose job was to beat on us. Our dad, brothers, and my husband were also in the room.

One by one each women would go in and submit to the beating. The men in our family were very worried and concerned, but didn't feel that they could intervene. They nervously stood by just in case something got out of hand. My pregnant daughter went in just before my sister. They beat her sensless and didn't avoid her swollen belly.

Then it was my sister's turn. She began to enter, dutifully, but something in her snapped. She realized this was wrong!!!! She began to scream "This has to stop!! This has to stop!!!" She was making such a scene that the men in our family got embarrassed and left the room (only my husband stayed, clearly concerned). She woke herself up screaming.

I've wondered about this dream so much, because it just as easily could have been mine. Even when consciously we believe (even insist) that the church is honoring and protecting us, or is at least benign, I wonder what our subconscious is trying to say...

jamech

I believe your dream illustration describes what we often call a “mobot”. Also your sister having a “very active indifference” reminds me of a Post Mormon recognizing my anger who asked me if I would tell a young child there was no Santa Claus.

SoUtSkeptic

[keystone]

Bb, Your Analysis Of This Information Is Very Good. It Is So Difficult Sometimes To Understand Why Intelligent Lds Church Members Cannot Seem To See The Many Many Problems And Inconsistencies That Are Right In Front Of Them. They Seem To Be Blinded By Their Years Of Brainwashing To A Point That They Are No Longer Capable Of Good Critical Thinking.