Believing in Life After Death Made Me Lazy

[silverfox]

I am finding it quite amazing how much more I cherish life and mankind since my apostacy.

While I am not sure if there is life after death I have observed that in my TBM days when I was certain that there IS life after death, I was a very lazy person emotionally.

Meaning, I used my knowledge of a life after death to let myself off the hook. I used it as a safety net. If I had a spat with a family member, that was okay, we'd make up in the hereafter and I would emotionally put that person on the "back burner". I put anything and everything I was too lazy to address emotionally into my "life after death" basket. I would have the opportunity to deal with it then. (In between being on that celestial conveyer belt popping out all those babies, heeeeheee)

Since my apostacy, that "safety net" has been removed. I admit it causes me anxiety. However, it has enabled me to grasp and cherish EACH MOMENT I AM ALIVE! Each person I come into contact with has more value. Each opportunity that presents itself, good AND bad, offers so much more value.

I have never ever in my life valued mankind and nature as much as I do now. Boy, was I missing out!!!! I know it is up to ME and me alone to find peace during my stay on earth.

If there is no hereafter who cares, right? WRONG! It has made me care so much more because I want to experience all that I can out of this life. It may be the only one I get.

[Born Free]

I am finding it quite amazing how much more I cherish life and mankind since my apostacy.

While I am not sure if there is life after death I have observed that in my TBM days when I was certain that there IS life after death, I was a very lazy person emotionally.

Meaning, I used my knowledge of a life after death to let myself off the hook. I used it as a safety net. If I had a spat with a family member, that was okay, we'd make up in the hereafter and I would emotionally put that person on the "back burner". I put anything and everything I was too lazy to address emotionally into my "life after death" basket. I would have the opportunity to deal with it then. (In between being on that celestial conveyer belt popping out all those babies, heeeeheee)

Since my apostacy, that "safety net" has been removed. I admit it causes me anxiety. However, it has enabled me to grasp and cherish EACH MOMENT I AM ALIVE! Each person I come into contact with has more value. Each opportunity that presents itself, good AND bad, offers so much more value.

I have never ever in my life valued mankind and nature as much as I do now. Boy, was I missing out!!!! I know it is up to ME and me alone to find peace during my stay on earth.

If there is no hereafter who cares, right? WRONG! It has made me care so much more because I want to experience all that I can out of this life. It may be the only one I get.

Silverfox,

As usual you are very observant! I happen to agree with you on this, and have a few thoughts and observations that might add fuel to the fire.

I have done a lot of work on the Importance x Urgency Matrix that Covey makes so much hoopla about. During that process I concluded that (just) one of the elements of Urgency is time-based. The formula for that is T/Urgency is inversely proportionate to available time. What the hell does that mean?

It we believe that we have forever to take an action, then it has no urgency; we have no motivation to get off our butts and address the issue.

There may be another element as well, which a SDA friend alerted me to. He is a pastor, and worked for many years in ther terminal oncology ward of a major hospital. He shared that from his observation, the more 'devout' in their religous belief a dying patient was, the less likely they were to tidy up their human affairs before dying. I found that very interesting.

The conversation tended to suggest that they stayed in denial; in some way substantially disconnected from their human condition (the rapidly approaching end thereof anyway!)

For me that has shades of what in the mental health arena is referred to as disassociation - like a mental splitting off and use of denial as some form of coping with stress.

Flip the coin over, and the behaviour gets to be more "living in the moment", which of course is in fact the only place where we live, the past being gone, and the future not yet arrived.

So the above logic does affirm your subjective experience of being "more alive" when you are more present with loved ones in the here and now, and less scattered across all time and eternity.

Daryl

[silverfox]

I've also found that from a political stand point, I don't want to wait to find out if there is going to be a judgement day or not. So my political views have changed somewhat. What if there is nothing? No reckoning at all? This has resulted in me studying and researching more carefully new laws and proposals I am voting on. I feel more aware because I am not falling back on that "well, they'll get their's on judgement day". What a cop out.

[free thinker]

What an incredible gift life is. How much better it is now that I have left mormonism. Life is so sweet now. I relish each moment. Even the ones that are hard. I am not looking for a reward in the next life.

If there is a Jesus Christ,and if he is to be my judge, I will gladly defer to him. I will tell him, "I done my best". Do with me what you will. I will be glad to submit to anyone who lived a perfect life, if he actually did.

If not, then I will be happy to allow the universe to return to me what I have given. I hope that will put me in a good place. My gut tells me that if there is a heaven , we are all gonna be surprised by who is, and, who isn't there!! :cool:


Free Thinker

[silverfox]

What an incredible gift life is. How much better it is now that I have left mormonism. Life is so sweet now. I relish each moment. Even the ones that are hard. I am not looking for a reward in the next life.

If there is a Jesus Christ,and if he is to be my judge, I will gladly defer to him. I will tell him, "I done my best". Do with me what you will. I will be glad to submit to anyone who lived a perfect life, if he actually did.

If not, then I will be happy to allow the universe to return to me what I have given. I hope that will put me in a good place. My gut tells me that if there is a heaven , we are all gonna be surprised by who is, and, who isn't there!! :cool:


Free Thinker

Agreed! I have often pondered over my nearly 30 yrs as a Mo why the hell I would want to make it to the celestial kingdom. The type of members I've envisioned being there just didn't seem inviting to me. I just don't think it would feel like "home". Of course I would get the argument that I would be slated to go where I would be "comfortable". Yeah okay, whatever. How 'bout I just hang around earth for a couple hundred years and get back to ya? :p Cuz, that's where I'm most comfortable for now.

[miss taken]

Silverfox,


There may be another element as well, which a SDA friend alerted me to. He is a pastor, and worked for many years in ther terminal oncology ward of a major hospital. He shared that from his observation, the more 'devout' in their religous belief a dying patient was, the less likely they were to tidy up their human affairs before dying. I found that very interesting.

The conversation tended to suggest that they stayed in denial; in some way substantially disconnected from their human condition (the rapidly approaching end thereof anyway!)

For me that has shades of what in the mental health arena is referred to as disassociation - like a mental splitting off and use of denial as some form of coping with stress.

Flip the coin over, and the behaviour gets to be more "living in the moment", which of course is in fact the only place where we live, the past being gone, and the future not yet arrived.

So the above logic does affirm your subjective experience of being "more alive" when you are more present with loved ones in the here and now, and less scattered across all time and eternity.

Daryl


I wasn't sure whether to chip in on this one. I think the NT admonition that somehow it is wrong to say 'eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die' maybe gets translated into 'life is or should only be about pain and endurance, and then we get our rest when we pass over to the next life'. LDS theology also states that 'men are that they might have joy' (women too), so we are supposed to be happy, and to 'drink of the waters of life and not just gargle' (trite saying I know, but I heard it many times in the LDS church). I am sure there are many LDS members who live life to the very full, and are extremely happy, I just wasn't one of them, for whatever reason. I was unhappy.

I'm not sure about the pastors observations. I have seen my own father come to terms with his own demise as he fought lung cancer, as well as my husbands twin who had a similar fight with a stage 4 brain tumour.

Both these men handled their impending demise in different ways, and went through a plethora of emotions.
My dad hoped for a life after death, and probably didn't sort out too many of his earthly affairs. It wasn't because he had disassociated himself, because he was there all the way to the end, and I know because i was there with him. But he did not care for material possessions, only his family whom he loved dearly.

My hubbies twin brother was angy, hurt, bitter, accepting, then angry again, right to the end. However, the last words he said to my husband whom he was with when he came into the world, as well as when he went out, was 'I love you'. He did not have a faith that I know of, but hoped. To both these men, their impending death put everything into a very sharp focus and perspective. Important things become unimportant, and what is left is the relationships with the people they love.

I do absolutely agree with Silver Fox on what she said below (sorry I didn't know how to include 2 quotes). I cherish life a lot more now, but I don't quite know why, maybe it is because I feel I am a more authentic and whole person, and I didn't feel that while I was personally in the church. I can't speak for other members though.

'I have never ever in my life valued mankind and nature as much as I do now. Boy, was I missing out!!!! I know it is up to ME and me alone to find peace during my stay on earth.

If there is no hereafter who cares, right? WRONG! It has made me care so much more because I want to experience all that I can out of this life. It may be the only one I get'.

[mutleydog]

Since leaving the church my attitude to life has changed.....I am a 'live for the moment' girl....but within reason of course. I wanto to experience all that life offers me, whether it turns out bad or good......and most of the time you just never know until its happening! Since leaving the church I have taken 'life risks' I wouldn't have taken a few years before and luckily they have all worked out!! I try and live every day to its fullest and I always believe the 'glass is half full', despite trying to fill it to the brim!

However, I also watched my father die from lung cancer - he had the illness for 5 years. He lived his life to the full and planned for a future, not knowing how long it would be. He actually worked right up to two weeks before he died....that was a remarkable example of determination. I learnt from my fathers attitude - he was angry at first, and then he just resolved to do his best for as long as he had....he was scared at the end, but my Mum and I were there with him when he finally passed. I have no sure knowledge whether I will see him again etc., but there is part of me that hopes I do - even if its just to thanks for being a example of how live life! Two years later I was diagnosed with ovarian cancer - I am coming up to my 5th year of the 'all clear'......that was a jolt and a half too! I have crammed so much in to life and am still doing so....and have so much I want to do in the future!!

[miss taken]

Since leaving the church my attitude to life has changed.....I am a 'live for the moment' girl....but within reason of course. I wanto to experience all that life offers me, whether it turns out bad or good......and most of the time you just never know until its happening! Since leaving the church I have taken 'life risks' I wouldn't have taken a few years before and luckily they have all worked out!! I try and live every day to its fullest and I always believe the 'glass is half full', despite trying to fill it to the brim!

However, I also watched my father die from lung cancer - he had the illness for 5 years. He lived his life to the full and planned for a future, not knowing how long it would be. He actually worked right up to two weeks before he died....that was a remarkable example of determination. I learnt from my fathers attitude - he was angry at first, and then he just resolved to do his best for as long as he had....he was scared at the end, but my Mum and I were there with him when he finally passed. I have no sure knowledge whether I will see him again etc., but there is part of me that hopes I do - even if its just to thanks for being a example of how live life! Two years later I was diagnosed with ovarian cancer - I am coming up to my 5th year of the 'all clear'......that was a jolt and a half too! I have crammed so much in to life and am still doing so....and have so much I want to do in the future!!

Mutley Dog, we have an awful lot in common!!! Life is quite a ride huh!!!!!
When I left the church I travelled, travelled, travelled.!!!!!! Fantastic experience.

[Free-soil]

It has been incredible to see the vigor and excitement you all possess for life now.

Recently, I spent a day with TBMs. I realized in that time that those people lacked an appreciation for life, real life. All they found significant in life were experiences related to their beliefs. I do not think this is how every member thinks. However, a large majority subscribe to this mentality of all mormon all the time. There is no appreciate for anything outside that.

In my life after the church, I too have found meaning in so many things. I've come to appreciate the smallest things that I used to consider mundane. I've enjoyed so much reading your stories of being liberated from TBM chains!

[dogzilla]

Recently, I spent a day with TBMs. I realized in that time that those people lacked an appreciation for life, real life. All they found significant in life were experiences related to their beliefs. I do not think this is how every member thinks. However, a large majority subscribe to this mentality of all mormon all the time. There is no appreciate for anything outside that.


I think this assertion can be backed up (only one data point) by a quick visit or conversation with my dad, a TBM. Not once, since I left his house to go to college, has he expressed any pride in me or my accomplishments as an adult. I put myself through school and asked him to pay for tuition for one quarter out of 16. (Which he did grudgingly -- that was god's money!) I packed up my car and moved, by myself, 1200 miles away, where I set myself up in a place to live and got a good job in three days. I have worked my way up in the desktop publishing industry, all the way to managing a corporate communications office in my last position, to doing freelance editing and writing and getting myself published here and there throughout the years. Not once have I asked him to read anything I published, or comment on any of those accomplishments. (I stopped asking him to read things when I was in high school and he read some rant of mine in a newspaper column and wondered aloud when I'd learn to "write normal, instead of writing about all this weird stuff". :rolleyes: Note: Still writing about "weird" stuff... like his religion!)

Had I married some RM in the temple and pumped out half a dozen demonspawn (sorry, my perjorative term for "children.") I would probably be hearing about how proud he is of me, on a weekly basis. Since I choose not to live the life that would make my dad proud, I have learned to find that pride within myself. One learns to cope without a support system. It's not fun, but you can get used to anything.

My point is, my folks simply cannot see anything outside of what has been spoon-fed to them as an appropriate accomplishment for a woman. I could be Chairwoman of the Board and CEO of Microsoft and unless I was married in the temple to a TBM with a bunch o' demonspawn, none of it would mean a thing.

[peter_mary]

Our experience has been the same as yours, Dogzilla. Our daughter has married a wonderful young man, and we simply couldn't be prouder of them. They are working their way through school, getting good grades, setting their sights on grad school...BUT...they didn't get married in the temple, and they haven't had any children yet (they've been married all of 18 months!).

My 18 year old son is planning on attending some school OTHER than BYU (wouldn't matter if it was Stanford or MIT...it's NOT BYU, so it's not important), and he has made no mention of a mission.

The result is that we get regular reports about the wonderful lives and happenings of our nieces and nephews (all living the perfect Mormon life), but nobody ever asks about our kids. I think the bottom line is that they assume we must be ashamed, and I think they are embarassed on our behalf.

Excuse me... :Puking

Almost done... :Puking

:Puking

There, I feel better. So now we don't talk about it...it's a "casting pearls before swine" phenomenon. :D

Paul

[Born Free]

Our experience has been the same as yours, Dogzilla. Our daughter has married a wonderful young man, and we simply couldn't be prouder of them. They are working their way through school, getting good grades, setting their sights on grad school...BUT...they didn't get married in the temple, and they haven't had any children yet (they've been married all of 18 months!).

My 18 year old son is planning on attending some school OTHER than BYU (wouldn't matter if it was Stanford or MIT...it's NOT BYU, so it's not important), and he has made no mention of a mission.

The result is that we get regular reports about the wonderful lives and happenings of our nieces and nephews (all living the perfect Mormon life), but nobody ever asks about our kids. I think the bottom line is that they assume we must be ashamed, and I think they are embarassed on our behalf.

Excuse me... :Puking

Almost done... :Puking

:Puking

There, I feel better. So now we don't talk about it...it's a "casting pearls before swine" phenomenon. :D

Paul
Paul,

As you and dogzilla describe your experience, it connects with my experience with my Mo extended family. I cannot read such examples without asking, "Are these people empathy-deficient because they are neurologically-challenged (brain-wiring), or have they cultivated this blindness to others experience?

I would be keen to see how others observe that?

I have my own theory, which in part connects with Big Eds shame and intimacy writings. When a person disconnects from their own experience (disassociates), their capacity to empathise with an others (experience) becomes impaired.
The psychologist Nathaniel Branden makes this point with respect to men, when he said:

"If I deny and disown the ways in which I need you, I will almost certainly be blind to the ways in which you need me and I will fail you, no matter how much I love you.

If I am oblivious to my own need for nurturing, as men in particular often are, I am unlikely to be sensitive to yours. Empathy for another has its roots in self-awareness."

Nathaniel Branden - Taking Responsibility
This line or reasoning also explians the elevated levels of depression among Mormons.

It seems to express itself as an impaired capacity to really seriously try on another persons perspective, and to suspend for a period their own take on the world, and try to identify with the internal logic of another human beings world view.

Daryl

[miss taken]

There may be another element as well, which a SDA friend alerted me to. He is a pastor, and worked for many years in ther terminal oncology ward of a major hospital. He shared that from his observation, the more 'devout' in their religous belief a dying patient was, the less likely they were to tidy up their human affairs before dying. I found that very interesting.

The conversation tended to suggest that they stayed in denial; in some way substantially disconnected from their human condition (the rapidly approaching end thereof anyway!)

For me that has shades of what in the mental health arena is referred to as disassociation - like a mental splitting off and use of denial as some form of coping with stress.

Flip the coin over, and the behaviour gets to be more "living in the moment", which of course is in fact the only place where we live, the past being gone, and the future not yet arrived.

So the above logic does affirm your subjective experience of being "more alive" when you are more present with loved ones in the here and now, and less scattered across all time and eternity.

Daryl


Well, I kind of disagreed with you on this, but I think I am now understanding your point.

I have known members who have recieved priesthood blessings, when a loved one is dying, which says they will get better.... (I'm sure it happens in other religions too) ....so they ignore the signs and the medical evidence, in the hope of a miracle, but when the loved one dies, where does that leave them??? A lady was told her child (in a priesthood blessing) would get better, that child died the next day. How on earth does a family cope with that.. I think it is extremely disturbing, not only are they having to cope with the death of someone they love, against the expectation that 'God Said' that they would get better, but also that everyone would have been in denial and unprepared for the death. The surviving members may also feel that 'they did something wrong' or that the loved one 'did something wrong' that their 'faith was not strong enough' When all it might of been was sincere and wishful thinking on the part of the PH who gave the blessing/s. I had a number of circumstances, in less grave situations than this, when I was judged in the same way.

It's a hard one and extremely traumatic in my opinion.
My heart goes out to people caught in that circumstance.

Mary

[Born Free]

Well, I kind of disagreed with you on this, but I think I am now understanding your point.

I have known members who have recieved priesthood blessings, when a loved one is dying, which says they will get better.... (I'm sure it happens in other religions too) ....so they ignore the signs and the medical evidence, in the hope of a miracle, but when the loved one dies, where does that leave them??? A lady was told her child (in a priesthood blessing) would get better, that child died the next day. How on earth does a family cope with that.. I think it is extremely disturbing, not only are they having to cope with the death of someone they love, against the expectation that 'God Said' that they would get better, but also that everyone would have been in denial and unprepared for the death. The surviving members may also feel that 'they did something wrong' or that the loved one 'did something wrong' that their 'faith was not strong enough' When all it might of been was sincere and wishful thinking on the part of the PH who gave the blessing/s. I had a number of circumstances, in less grave situations than this, when I was judged in the same way.

It's a hard one and extremely traumatic in my opinion.
My heart goes out to people caught in that circumstance.

Mary

Most of us get to see a few deaths close up during our lives, and then we are frequently so close as to be suspect on our objectivity.

This friend would deal with a dying patient a week for about 48 weeks a year, and he worked in the ward for over 4 years. Most of us will get no where near that level of experience. Knowing his religious beliefs (he is a practising Christian), the observation he made was quite a surprise to me.

But what he said fits well with what many of us say about our departure from Mormonism, that we come alive once we uncouple from the deadening impact of Mormonism. It follows that we could also be more alive even in our death, in that we are more present with the experience, and more real with loved ones, more vulnerable in our humanity, and more couragous in expressing our love.

Spong calls it "loving willfully and wantonly".

Have I made my position any clearer?

Daryl

[miss taken]

Thanks Daryl, yes, and I do absolutely agree with you.