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Born Free
10th October 2006, 07:30 PM
I came acress this interesting post on a thread started by Bob McCue, a copy of which is posted on his site. The thread theme was how the Church sets people who leave up to fail, through ill preparing them for the real world.

Cognitive Therapy for Personality Disorders: a Schema-Focused Approach: Young

"I have thought a lot about your post and how the church sabotages those who choose not to play by its rules. As I analyze it, much of this can be explained by cognitive
psychology. Cognitive therapists talk about adaptive and maladaptive schemas or paradigms. Adaptive schemas reflect reality, while maladaptive schemas distort reality.
Adaptive cognitive schemas or objective paradigms align us with our true selves and with the real world. Because maladaptive cognitive schemas or subjective paradigms distort the reality of whom we are and what we're surrounded by, maladaptive schemas create self-defeating, core themes or patterns that we keep repeating throughout our lives.

Aaron Beck, an early cognitive therapist, postulated that schemas bias our interpretation of reality in a consistent manner. When the distortions become pathological, they show up as "typical misconceptions, distorted attitudes, invalid premises, and unrealistic goals and expectations."

Another cognitive therapist and a disciple of Beck's, Jeffrey Young, calls these maladaptive schemas "lifetraps." In his book Cognitive Therapy for Personality Disorders: a Schema-Focused Approach, Young lists 18 early maladaptive schemas or "lifetraps".

In my view, Mormonism uses various "lifetraps" to sabotage those who will not play by its rules. Below I have pasted Young's descriptions of some of the lifetraps that seem the most prevalent in Mormonism from Young's website. As I reviewed these, I was struck by how close Young's description of the lifetrap of subjugation fits my earlier posts on this thread. I was also struck by the prevalence in Mormonism of the lifetraps in Young's last cluster. BKP comes to mind with Young's descriptions of the lifetraps of unrelenting standards/hypercriticalnes and punitiveness."

M.P.

11. OTHER-DIRECTEDNESS
(An excessive focus on the desires, feelings, and responses of others, at the expense of one's own needs -- in order to gain love and approval, to maintain one's sense of connection, or avoid retaliation. Usually involves suppression and lack of awareness regarding one's own anger and natural inclinations. Typical family origin is based on conditional acceptance: children must suppress important aspects of themselves in order to gain love, attention, and approval. In many such families, the parents' emotional needs and desires -- or social acceptance and status -- are valued more than the unique needs and feelings of each child.)

12. SUBJUGATION (SB)
Excessive surrendering of control to others because one feels coerced - - usually to avoid anger, retaliation, or abandonment. The two major forms of subjugation are:
A. Subjugation of Needs: Suppression of one's preferences, decisions, and desires.

B. Subjugation of Emotions: Suppression of emotional expression, especially anger. Usually involves the perception that one's own desires, opinions, and feelings are not valid or important to others. Frequently presents as excessive compliance, combined with hypersensitivity to feeling trapped. Generally leads to a build up of anger, manifested in maladaptive symptoms (e.g., passive-aggressive behavior, uncontrolled outbursts of temper, psychosomatic symptoms, withdrawal of affection, "acting out", substance
abuse).

13. SELF-SACRIFICE (SS)
Excessive focus on voluntarily meeting the needs of others in daily situations, at the expense of one's own gratification. The most common reasons are: to prevent causing pain to others; to avoid guilt from feeling selfish; or to maintain the connection with others perceived as needy. Often results from an acute sensitivity to the pain of others. Sometimes leads to a sense that one's own needs are not being adequately met and to resentment of those who are taken care of. (Overlaps with concept of co-dependency.)

14. APPROVAL-SEEKING / RECOGNITION-SEEKING (AS)
Excessive emphasis on gaining approval, recognition, or attention from other people, or fitting in, at the expense of developing a secure and true sense of self. One's sense of esteem is dependent primarily on the reactions of others rather than on one's own natural inclinations. Sometimes includes an overemphasis on status, appearance, social
acceptance, money, or achievement -- as means of gaining approval, admiration, or attention (not primarily for power or control). Frequently results in major life decisions that are inauthentic or unsatisfying; or in hypersensitivity to rejection.

OVERVIGILANCE & INHIBITION

OR on meeting rigid, internalized rules and expectations about performance and ethical behavior -- often at the expense of happiness, self-expression, relaxation, close relationships, or health. Typical family origin is grim, demanding, and sometimes punitive: performance, duty, perfectionism, following rules, hiding emotions, and avoiding mistakes predominate over pleasure, joy, and relaxation. There is usually an undercurrent of pessimism and worry---that things could fall apart if one fails to be vigilant and careful at all times.)

15. NEGATIVITY / PESSIMISM (NP)
A pervasive, lifelong focus on the negative aspects of life (pain, death, loss, disappointment, conflict, guilt, resentment, unsolved problems, potential mistakes, betrayal, things that could go wrong, etc.) while minimizing or neglecting the positive or optimistic aspects. Usually includes an exaggerated expectation-- in a wide range of work, financial, or interpersonal situations -- that things will eventually go seriously wrong, or that aspects of one's life that seem to be going well will ultimately fall apart. Usually involves an inordinate fear of making mistakes that might lead to: financial collapse, loss, humiliation, or being trapped in a bad situation. Because potential negative
outcomes are exaggerated, these patients are frequently characterized by chronic worry, vigilance, complaining, or indecision.

16. EMOTIONAL INHIBITION (EI)
The excessive inhibition of spontaneous action, feeling, or communication -- usually to avoid disapproval by others, feelings of shame, or losing control of one's impulses. The most common areas of inhibition involve: (a) inhibition of anger & aggression; (b) inhibition of positive impulses (e.g., joy, affection, sexual excitement, play); (c) difficulty expressing vulnerability or communicating freely about one's feelings, needs, etc.; or (d) excessive emphasis on rationality while disregarding emotions.

17. UNRELENTING STANDARDS / HYPERCRITICALNESS (US)
The underlying belief that one must strive to meet very high internalized standards of behavior and performance, usually to avoid criticism. Typically results in feelings of pressure or difficulty slowing down; and in hypercriticalness toward oneself and others. Must involve significant impairment in: pleasure, relaxation, health, self-esteem, sense of accomplishment, or satisfying relationships. Unrelenting standards typically present as: (a) perfectionism, inordinate attention to detail, or an underestimate of how good one's own performance is relative to the norm; (b) rigid rules and "shoulds" in many areas of life, including unrealistically high moral, ethical, cultural, or religious precepts; or (c) preoccupation with time and efficiency, so that more can be accomplished.

18. PUNITIVENESS (PU)
The belief that people should be harshly punished for making mistakes. Involves the tendency to be angry, intolerant, punitive, and impatient with those people (including oneself) who do not meet one's expectations or standards. Usually includes difficulty forgiving mistakes in oneself or others, because of a reluctance to consider extenuating circumstances, allow for human imperfection, or empathize with feelings.

All the above sounded pretty close to the money to me, and consistent with much of the discussion here previously.

Daryl

The original thread is at:
http://mccue.cc/bob/documents/rs.the%20risks%20of%20leaving%20mormonism.pdf

nedok
11th October 2006, 08:13 AM
I think having the concept of a 'slippery slope' ingrained from an early age in nearly every aspect of life has taken me a while to overcome. Leaving the church after 19 years of growing up in it left a lot of bad habbits in my reasoning and I often find myself worried that one small habbit or decision will lead to a string of bad events. Fortunately I found this to be untrue when I began my first serious relationship outside the church and it really hit me as to how wrong the church was in telling me how 'destructive' sexual activity was.

I think I'm pretty much over those feelings now but every once in a while I'll make irrational decisions without realizing how absurd and instinctive they are.

peter_mary
11th October 2006, 11:35 AM
I think having the concept of a 'slippery slope' ingrained from an early age in nearly every aspect of life has taken me a while to overcome. Leaving the church after 19 years of growing up in it left a lot of bad habbits in my reasoning and I often find myself worried that one small habbit or decision will lead to a string of bad events. Fortunately I found this to be untrue when I began my first serious relationship outside the church and it really hit me as to how wrong the church was in telling me how 'destructive' sexual activity was.

I think I'm pretty much over those feelings now but every once in a while I'll make irrational decisions without realizing how absurd and instinctive they are.
Hey, welcome Nedok!

It took years to ingrain all those habits into us, and it takes even longer to remove them (ungrain? :p ). Those features, particularly for people who were raised in the church, are so enmeshed with their world-view that it takes a LONG time and a lot of thinking/talking to ferret out that which is old paradigm, and that which is actually useful.

The good news is, once you've cut the strings, there aren't as many inhibitors to experimentation and exploration. Natural and logical consequences are all you're facing, and while those CAN suck pretty bad, (the lesson being, "be wise,") still, it's good to rid yourself of the "eternal consequences", some of which are second only to those saved for murder;)

Glad to have you here!

nedok
11th October 2006, 12:11 PM
Hey, welcome Nedok!

Glad to have you here!

Thanks, it's nice to be around individuals who are friendly because they feel like it and not because they feel obligated to do so.

peter_mary
11th October 2006, 12:21 PM
Thanks, it's nice to be around individuals who are friendly because they feel like it and not because they feel obligated to do so.
You're ASSUMING I wasn't assigned as your "post-teacher..." :p

free thinker
11th October 2006, 09:46 PM
Glad to see McCue contniues his priceless work and insights.

I think there is a high prevalence of codependency in the mormon system.


Welcome nedok.

ft

Born Free
11th October 2006, 10:20 PM
Glad to see McCue contniues his priceless work and insights.

I think there is a high prevalence of codependency in the mormon system.


Welcome nedok.

ft
FT,

Bob has a great paper over there on Mormon marriage, in which he argues that it is more akin to marriage in Muslim and older societies, where the marriage in focused outwards onto God (in reality the religion and its expectations), rather than the integrity and unity of the marriage.

It is still resonating with me days after reading it, and I will revisit it as the implications are so profound. At one point he compares the wording of the Mormon wedding with an Anglican wedding and they are like chalk and cheese.

Bob brings an astute eye to anything he reviews, and is like a light in the darkness.

FT, I think you would really enjoy the paper.

http://mccue.cc/bob/documents/rs.a%20few%20thoughts%20about%20Mormon%20Marriage. pdf

Daryl

free thinker
11th October 2006, 11:18 PM
FT, I think you would really enjoy the paper.


Daryl


I did enjoy it. Amazing insight. Interesting to note that this writing is only an avocation for Bob. He is trained as an attorney. One can only ascertain that his legal talents must be immense and possibly bordering on genious. What would you pay to see him in a free form conversation with Boyd K. Packer or Gordon B. Hinckley?


Somehow I was able to internally perceive this information and avoided marriage as an active LDS man for 25 years. I had many opportunities but somehow it never felt right.

Now I realize that it was an inner voice of warning. I am so overhwhelmingly happy that I did not succumb to the pressure. It most certainly would have ended in divorce and possibly hurt many people.

Wasn't the Anglican vow beautiful Daryl? I found it so much more spiritual and felt my shoulders ease in relaxation after having read the Mormon Temple Covenant. The contrast was like feeling a cool breeze blow over me.

I have seen hundreds of wrecked mormon marriages. I have dated many women who have come out the other side. Many. Their stories are so much alike. I have heard so many stories of mormon men who after marriage for many years just walked away from it all. The marriage, the church, everything.

It is so obvious to me with the experience that I have lived that Bob McCue has this correct. I have seen it first hand up close and personal.

Thank You

ft

Born Free
11th October 2006, 11:29 PM
FT, I think you would really enjoy the paper.


Daryl


I did enjoy it. Amazing insight. Interesting to note that this writing is only an avocation for Bob. He is trained as an attorney. One can only ascertain that his legal talents must be immense and possibly bordering on genious. What would you pay to see him in a free form conversation with Boyd K. Packer or Gordon B. Hinckley?

<snip>

Wasn't the Anglican vow beautiful Daryl? I found it so much more spiritual and felt my shoulders ease in relaxation after having read the Mormon Temple Covenant. The contrast was like feeling a cool breeze blow over me.

<snip>

Thank You

ft
FT,

Glad you enjoyed it as much as I did.

The contrast between the LDS and Anglican vows was massive, wasn't it. For me that distilled the whole paper.

One is to serve MoInc,
The other is couple-centric

After reading that I saw much more clearly many of the aspects that had not worked for me for many years on the inside.

I am in agreement re Bob. He is an impressive intellect, combined with sensitivity: a powerful combination.

Daryl

bryaninks
13th October 2006, 05:51 PM
I've performed two marriages now (both within the last year) and have been asked to perform a third.

In the first two cases, I didn't want to be an overbearing type. I didn't want them to experience the same nonsense that an LDS marriage entailed.

I asked both couples what they wanted in a marriage ceremony and tried to tailor one to their desires. . . because unlike the LDS ceremonies. . . real marriage is about the couple.

I came up with several different ideas, some of which I asked for assistance with, and cobbled together three different ceremonies. I then presented to the couple those three and we picked them apart, mixed-and-matched, and came up with something that fit their exact desires.

Personally, I love my approach much more than I enjoyed my own marriage ceremony.

Here is the one I came up with for the first couple:

We are gathered here today to witness and to celebrate the joining together of C*** and B**** in marriage. More than a ceremony, this is the single most significant moment of human celebration and personal commitment and should not be entered into lightly, but in the freedom of joy and responsibility.

On this, the most important day of your lives, you, B**** and C***, have asked that your gratitude be expressed to all those who are here today - your family and friends - for being with you and sharing your happiness.

You have asked your family present to join you, to be with you at this moment of your greatest joy. You are making a commitment to your families that this joining will increase the love between all of you.

You now stand here as two individuals at the dawn of your life as one. Through your relationship, you have come to know, respect and love each other. Although your backgrounds and experiences are different, you share the same goals and ideals. Today you are making the deepest commitment of your lives as you acknowledge your intention to be married and with it your promise of trust and devotion to each other. From this point on, you will think first of this union you are now creating and how you may strengthen it.

Marriage presents a possibility not only for gratification; but also for enrichment. Marriage should be a means for the development of those personal and social values that we prize so highly: Integrity, cooperation, self-respect, and human dignity. Remember that love grows with an understanding mind, a compassionate, helpful heart and a forgiving, loving nature.

This ceremony formally unites you in marriage, but only you can unite with each other in your hearts. The bond uniting you is the entire meaning. We hope your companionship will bring you strength and your life is enriched by affection and mutual respect bringing peace and contentment.

A marriage is many things. But a good marriage is a relationship of love. Essentially, to be in love means to have a deep sense of identification with another person. It is to live in the life of that person, feeling his or her joys and troubles as if they were your own. And when two people are truly in love, each is concerned with helping the other become what he or she most wants to be. The husband wants to nourish his wife's growth and progress. The wife desires to assist her husband in the same manner.

There should be a sharing of your lives. Your lives should be a life together. But there should also be a space in your togetherness. Allow each other room and privacy to be individuals, with hearts, minds and desires of your own. For only by being a whole person can you have something to give to the one that you love. Each of you should keep the freedom of spirit which individually brought you to stand here together today.

In sharing the most intimate relationship of husband and wife, there will be times of stress, sacrifice and sorrow. May you face them together and overcome adversity with the same love, understanding and faith in each other that you feel at this moment.

Help each other to move beyond distrust, fear and hostility. Remember that we become what we think about each day. Remember that our thoughts turn into actions, just as your thoughts about getting married have turned into this action today. Teach your children to strive toward inner beauty not just outward appearance; to seek knowledge rather than achievement; to respect other's rights and property; to seek tolerance and avoid arrogance; strive for ethical actions rather than controlling others, and to seek peace of mind and not just pieces of property.

If there is anyone present, who knows of any just cause why this couple may not be lawfully joined in marriage, make it known now or afterwards hold your peace.

If you, C*** and B****, have freely and deliberately chosen each other as partners in this marriage and you know of no just cause why you may not be so united, will you join your right hands, and now, will you join your left hands.

Do you, B****, solemnly declare in the presence of these witnesses that you take this woman, C***, to be your lawfully wedded wife?

Will you love her, comfort her, honor her, stay by her side in all states of well-being and cherish her?

(repeat modified for bride).

Do you have the rings? (take rings) These rings have neither a beginning nor an end. It is a symbol of everlasting love. May it forever remind you of the vows and obligations that you have taken this day.

(hand ring to groom) Will you place this ring on the bride's left hand and repeat after me: C***, this ring I give you in token and in pledge of our constant and abiding love.

(hand ring to bride) Will you place this ring on the groom's left hand and repeat after me: B****, this ring I give you in token and in pledge of our constant and abiding love.

May these rings stand as a sign to you of your desire to live, to love, to create, to build your lives and help the lives of those you touch.

May today's celebration remain with you as the sign of the partnership you have formed. We hope that you will grow and change with circumstance. We hope that you will not be afraid of making mistakes and that you will always be open and honest with each other. We trust that you will learn to accept the changes of life and its wonder - as at this moment, you accept the joy of being married. May the love that you feel and share with us today continue to grow deeper and stronger.

A poem from an Indian marriage ceremony captures all that marriage can be. These beautiful thoughts have been spoken to wedding couples for hundreds of years in this country. Please face each other.

Now you will feel no rain
for each of you will be shelter for the other.
Now you will feel no cold
for each of you will be warmth to the other.
Now there is no more loneliness
for each of you will be companion to the other.
Now you are two bodies
but there is one life before you.
Go now to your dwelling place
to enter into the days of togetherness
and may your days be good and long upon the earth.

Your gift to each other for your wedding today has been your wedding rings - which shall always be an outward demonstration of your vows of love and respect; and a public showing of your commitment to each other.

You now have what remains the most honorable title which may exist between a man and a woman - the title of "husband" and "wife." For your first gift as husband and wife, that gift will be a single rose.

In the past, the rose was considered a symbol of love and a single rose always meant only one thing - it meant the words "I love you." So it is appropriate that for your first gift - as husband and wife - that gift would be a single rose.

Please exchange your first gift as husband and wife. In some ways it seems like you have not done anything at all. Just a moment ago you were holding one small rose - and now you are holding one small rose. In some ways, a marriage ceremony is like this. In some ways, tomorrow is going to seem no different than yesterday. But in fact today, just now, you both have given and received one of the most valuable and precious gifts of life - one I hope you always remember - the gift of true and abiding love within the devotion of marriage.

C*** and B****, I would ask that where ever you make your home in the future - whether it be a large and elegant home - or a small and graceful one - that you both pick one very special location for roses; so that on each anniversary of this truly wonderful occasion you both may take a rose to that spot both as a recommitment to your marriage - and a recommitment that THIS will be a marriage based upon love.

In every marriage there are times where it is difficult to find the right words. It is easiest to hurt who we most love. It is easiest to be most hurt by who we most love. It might be difficult some time to words to say "I am sorry" or "I forgive you"; "I need you" or "I am hurting". If this should happen, if you simply can not find these words, leave a rose at that spot which both of you have selected - for that rose than says what matters most of all and should overpower all other things and all other words.

That rose says the words: "I still love you." The other should accept this rose for the words which cannot be found, and remember the love and hope that you both share today.

C*** and B****, if there is anything you remember of this marriage ceremony, it is that it was love that brought you here today, it is only love which can make it a glorious union, and it is by love which your marriage shall endure.

C*** and B**** having consented together in marriage and having witnessed the same before this company and thereto having pledged your love, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the State of Utah, I pronounce that you are husband and wife.

You may kiss and embrace.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you C*** and B**** ****.

Because I had the bride and groom's assistance, the ceremony was much more personal, much more meaningful to them. It was light, fun, and not overly religious.

I think I had a point I was going for, but I'm posting at work and got distracted by a customer. . . so I forgot what it was.

:P

puff
14th October 2006, 04:25 AM
I've performed two marriages now (both within the last year) and have been asked to perform a third.

In the first two cases, I didn't want to be an overbearing type. I didn't want them to experience the same nonsense that an LDS marriage entailed.

I asked both couples what they wanted in a marriage ceremony and tried to tailor one to their desires. . . because unlike the LDS ceremonies. . . real marriage is about the couple.

I came up with several different ideas, some of which I asked for assistance with, and cobbled together three different ceremonies. I then presented to the couple those three and we picked them apart, mixed-and-matched, and came up with something that fit their exact desires.

Personally, I love my approach much more than I enjoyed my own marriage ceremony.

Here is the one I came up with for the first couple:



Because I had the bride and groom's assistance, the ceremony was much more personal, much more meaningful to them. It was light, fun, and not overly religious.

I think I had a point I was going for, but I'm posting at work and got distracted by a customer. . . so I forgot what it was.

:Pare you a priest of some sort

bryaninks
14th October 2006, 04:07 PM
are you a priest of some sort

Aye. I'm an ordained minister for a non-denominational church.

helemon
14th October 2006, 08:20 PM
Aye. I'm an ordained minister for a non-denominational church.

Is this a church that you founded yourself to get the tax break and to make it legal to take drugs as part of your religious sacrament? What God do you worship? FSM or IPU or how about UMAI-HULHLYA-WIT? My personal favorite is WHEEMEEMEOWAH!
http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/native_american-mythology.php?deity=UMAI-HULHLYA-WIT

puff
15th October 2006, 01:15 AM
Aye. I'm an ordained minister for a non-denominational church.soundz great , do you get to baptize anyone , what about chastity interviews for young women

bryaninks
17th October 2006, 03:30 PM
Is this a church that you founded yourself to get the tax break and to make it legal to take drugs as part of your religious sacrament? What God do you worship? FSM or IPU or how about UMAI-HULHLYA-WIT? My personal favorite is WHEEMEEMEOWAH!
http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/native_american-mythology.php?deity=UMAI-HULHLYA-WIT

lol

Not quite.

I did it, orginally, as a joke. Just to be able to say that I was an ordained minister. But I've had two couples ask me to perform their marriage. . . and a third is in the wings.

Now it has become something of a minor identity role for me.

peter_mary
17th October 2006, 04:34 PM
lol

Not quite.

I did it, orginally, as a joke. Just to be able to say that I was an ordained minister. But I've had two couples ask me to perform their marriage. . . and a third is in the wings.

Now it has become something of a minor identity role for me.
I'll show you my card if you show me yours... :p

I THOUGHT I was gonna do a wedding last summer, but they chickened out and had a more conventional "man of the cloth" (versus me, a "man of the loin-cloth").

helemon
17th October 2006, 07:09 PM
I'll show you my card if you show me yours... :p

I THOUGHT I was gonna do a wedding last summer, but they chickened out and had a more conventional "man of the cloth" (versus me, a "man of the loin-cloth").

Are you a priest of WHEEMEEMEOWAH!? I think he is the patron god of politicians.:D

free thinker
18th October 2006, 03:48 PM
I did it, orginally, as a joke. Just to be able to say that I was an ordained minister. But I've had two couples ask me to perform their marriage. . . and a third is in the wings.

Now it has become something of a minor identity role for me.


Keep it rolling man. Get yerself some gold plates and etc. and go for it. There is serious money in religion.

ft

bryaninks
20th October 2006, 03:28 PM
I did it, orginally, as a joke. Just to be able to say that I was an ordained minister. But I've had two couples ask me to perform their marriage. . . and a third is in the wings.

Now it has become something of a minor identity role for me.


Keep it rolling man. Get yerself some gold plates and etc. and go for it. There is serious money in religion.

ft

But I have those things called "morals" and "ethics".

If I could find a way to purge those from my psyche, I would so start a cult.

dogzilla
21st October 2006, 11:15 AM
But I have those things called "morals" and "ethics".

If I could find a way to purge those from my psyche, I would so start a cult.

I'd totally drink your Kool-Aid, man.

:neener: