What benefits have you taken from Mormonism?

[mutleydog]

As a community we discuss at length on the detriments of mormonism in our life and the benefits/positive changes that have become us on leaving the church. I am curious if mormonism brought any positive outcomes as a member and even now as post-mormon?

I know before I joined the church I was very shy and unconfident. I think the teaching, testimony and talk obligations really helped me with my shyness and I gained confidence with public speaking scenario's. I love public speaking and have no hesitation in accepting work or academic related assignments to speak. If anything the practical side of mormonism helped me gain confidence in that. I think it also helped me to understand that I am a person of value and can do anything that I want if I have the determination to do it. I think many mormon folk think themselves better than the rest of the population and I don't mean in that sense. I had no self worth before I joined and over the years this gained in strength and in turn I achieved goals and dreams I would never have dreamed of before my membership!! However, after so many years this was counter-balanced with negative atitudes towards the womans role, my sexuality etc. However, since my involvement in mormonism I have gained confidence with these issues also - though I am inclined to say that having the basics of valuing myself helped in this. So, the end result still remains that the church as a whole helped me gain confidence in myself and my abilities and who I am as a person. :)

[gracie]

As a community we discuss at length on the detriments of mormonism in our life and the benefits/positive changes that have become us on leaving the church. I am curious if mormonism brought any positive outcomes as a member and even now as post-mormon?

I know before I joined the church I was very shy and unconfident. I think the teaching, testimony and talk obligations really helped me with my shyness and I gained confidence with public speaking scenario's. I love public speaking and have no hesitation in accepting work or academic related assignments to speak. If anything the practical side of mormonism helped me gain confidence in that. I think it also helped me to understand that I am a person of value and can do anything that I want if I have the determination to do it. I think many mormon folk think themselves better than the rest of the population and I don't mean in that sense. I had no self worth before I joined and over the years this gained in strength and in turn I achieved goals and dreams I would never have dreamed of before my membership!! However, after so many years this was counter-balanced with negative atitudes towards the womans role, my sexuality etc. However, since my involvement in mormonism I have gained confidence with these issues also - though I am inclined to say that having the basics of valuing myself helped in this. So, the end result still remains that the church as a whole helped me gain confidence in myself and my abilities and who I am as a person. :)

I have to admit I am still in an angry/bitter stage of post-mo-ness, so it is hard to think of any good right now! However, I do agree with the public speaking aspect of the church being a benefit. I was very shy as a child/adolescent but am now extremely comfortable speaking in any kind of public setting. Also, (my DH and I have talked about this at length), there is the ability to do anything last minute! I mean, I can teach a lesson, conduct a meeting, give a "talk", address a group, coordinate an "activity", etc, with only minutes notice! Of course, that is because I have done it for years, not feeling it was worth a lot of my time to prepare for any or all of the above mentioned responsibilities. I don't know of anywhere else I would have been allowed to waste others time so frequently with my extemporaneous (sp?) posturing! What a skill!
Other than that, I learned that women are second class, children are deserving of only lipservice, the value of a human being comes from how obedient you are to an authority figure, I could go on.
I think I will send my children to Toast masters or something like that........
Gracie

[silverfox]

As a community we discuss at length on the detriments of mormonism in our life and the benefits/positive changes that have become us on leaving the church. I am curious if mormonism brought any positive outcomes as a member and even now as post-mormon?

I know before I joined the church I was very shy and unconfident. I think the teaching, testimony and talk obligations really helped me with my shyness and I gained confidence with public speaking scenario's. I love public speaking and have no hesitation in accepting work or academic related assignments to speak. If anything the practical side of mormonism helped me gain confidence in that. I think it also helped me to understand that I am a person of value and can do anything that I want if I have the determination to do it. I think many mormon folk think themselves better than the rest of the population and I don't mean in that sense. I had no self worth before I joined and over the years this gained in strength and in turn I achieved goals and dreams I would never have dreamed of before my membership!! However, after so many years this was counter-balanced with negative atitudes towards the womans role, my sexuality etc. However, since my involvement in mormonism I have gained confidence with these issues also - though I am inclined to say that having the basics of valuing myself helped in this. So, the end result still remains that the church as a whole helped me gain confidence in myself and my abilities and who I am as a person. :)

I find it interesting how for some members it enables them to feel more self worth, overcome shyness, etc. For me it fueled my feelings of inadequacy, beat on my sense of self worth ALL THE TIME, etc. I experienced just the opposite.

The BEST part is I learned to REBEL in productive ways. Well, productive for ME anyway. I wouldn't allow myself to be "dismissed" by a bishop or stake prez or any other member. I spoke my mind, my feelings, my questions with respect of course. Which in a way just fueled those feelings of inadequacy (why couldn't I be obedient like other members???) BUT in the final outcome I gained courage to stand up for what I believe or to fight for answers.....to literally demand answers in all situations of life. Does it mean I get them? Absolutely not but I will be DAMNED if I sit and just watch shit (this word is for you, Paul heehee) go by without speaking up. EVER AGAIN. And in doing this I have been able to influence some very bad situations I have come across. (child abuse I've witnessed, teen issues, animal abuse, etc) Lots of people like to look or find it easier to look the other way. Not me. Bring it on.

[dogzilla]

Since I'm about 20 years away from leaving the Church, I can think of many things that could possibly be attributed to Mormonism. (Or other influences, sometimes hard to say.)

For example, I probably gained most of my leadership skills from the church. Maybe sounds unusual coming from a woman the church where we are not allowed to have real leadership positions. Yet, within our smaller groups, we lead. As youth group class president, I learned how to put on fundraisers and special events. In fact, I liked that so much, I majored in Public Relations in college and did two internships that focused on special events. From this skill, I also learned throw really great parties. (Great cooking skills!) I learned how to delegate responsibilty, gently guide those to whom I've delegated, treating all with respect and deference to the expertise they bring to the table. And I've learned to use every available resource (Sister X has folding chairs? Let's call her!) to meet my end goals. I learned to not be afraid to ask for help; most people are happy to lend a hand or a resource when needed.

I probably also gained the confidence in myself and my research skills to constantly pursue Truth and to Question Authority. I don't hold my beliefs and values because some man told me what they were: I took the time to look things up, read, listen and learn until I had decided for myself what is right and what is your opinion. (kidding) I take very little (from anybody) at face value. This Pursuit of Truth drives my purchasing decisions, influences how I vote and essentially, colors everything I do, say and think. (As I learned in Women's Studies classes, The Personal IS Political.)

There are many bad things as well, but we're focusing on the positive in this thread, right? Great idea! We should give credit, where and if credit is due.

[peter_mary]

Mormonism was the first world-view I encountered that suggested that people and God were "of the same stuff." That was a pretty radical paradigm for me at the time. I've moved to a different world view since then, but in an important way, it has a fundamental common element...I am of the same "stuff" as the universe.

The good things I gained from the Church were good NOT because they were unique to the Church, but because they are "just good." Like hard work, kindness, honesty, charity, service, leadership, etc. Whatever I am now, there was something about the last 20 years that helped bring me here. I was e-mailing with a friend yesterday, and likened my life to a journey to Yellowstone National Park. The surroundings I now find myself in are beautiful and fulfilling. The Church was like the car I rode in to get here. It is NOT the park...the park is a natural part of the planet (at least the parts I enjoy!), while the car is clearly of human construction. I could have driven any number of makes and models of automobiles, or a bus, or motorcycle, or even walked, but I DID come in the Mormon car. So even though now I've parked the car and set off hiking, the simple fact of the matter is that I spent 20 years growing, learning, raising a family, going to school, getting a job, serving, and on and on in the car I happened to be in. It broke down on occassion, was WAY too expensive to drive, wouldn't go on Sunday, and was sometimes an embarassment to be seen in :) but for good or for bad, it is the vehicle that brought me here.

It will always be an important part of my history. The time spent "in that car" is already spent, and the lessons have either been learned or lost. There is no going back and doing it again in a different car. To be happy, I have to work with what I already have in terms of my history. It is my history. My story. To deny that is to deny me. Happily, I have a chance now to follow a new path, which will be observable as a hard left turn in the middle of my life, and that's a thrill, too, But an important part of my ability to even desire to write new history is the experiences I've lived through and learned from.

As with all of life's experiences, there is a chance for wisdom. For me, I believe that nothing has taught me more about myself, my family, and about living than having lived as a Mormon fully and completely...and then shifting that paradigm. If I have gained any wisdom in that experience, then I have benefited indeed.

Paul

[dogzilla]

It broke down on occassion, was WAY too expensive to drive, wouldn't go on Sunday, and was sometimes an embarassment to be seen in but for good or for bad, it is the vehicle that brought me here.

So... you're saying you drove a Jaguar to get here? :p

:: ducking and running ::

[pokatator]

The good things I gained from the Church were good NOT because they were unique to the Church, but because they are "just good." Like hard work, kindness, honesty, charity, service, leadership, etc.

"Just Good", Ditto

[Free-soil]

Mormonism was the first world-view I encountered that suggested that people and God were "of the same stuff." That was a pretty radical paradigm for me at the time. I've moved to a different world view since then, but in an important way, it has a fundamental common element...I am of the same "stuff" as the universe.

The good things I gained from the Church were good NOT because they were unique to the Church, but because they are "just good." Like hard work, kindness, honesty, charity, service, leadership, etc. Whatever I am now, there was something about the last 20 years that helped bring me here. I was e-mailing with a friend yesterday, and likened my life to a journey to Yellowstone National Park. The surroundings I now find myself in are beautiful and fulfilling. The Church was like the car I rode in to get here. It is NOT the park...the park is a natural part of the planet (at least the parts I enjoy!), while the car is clearly of human construction. I could have driven any number of makes and models of automobiles, or a bus, or motorcycle, or even walked, but I DID come in the Mormon car. So even though now I've parked the car and set off hiking, the simple fact of the matter is that I spent 20 years growing, learning, raising a family, going to school, getting a job, serving, and on and on in the car I happened to be in. It broke down on occassion, was WAY too expensive to drive, wouldn't go on Sunday, and was sometimes an embarassment to be seen in :) but for good or for bad, it is the vehicle that brought me here.

It will always be an important part of my history. The time spent "in that car" is already spent, and the lessons have either been learned or lost. There is no going back and doing it again in a different car. To be happy, I have to work with what I already have in terms of my history. It is my history. My story. To deny that is to deny me. Happily, I have a chance now to follow a new path, which will be observable as a hard left turn in the middle of my life, and that's a thrill, too, But an important part of my ability to even desire to write new history is the experiences I've lived through and learned from.

As with all of life's experiences, there is a chance for wisdom. For me, I believe that nothing has taught me more about myself, my family, and about living than having lived as a Mormon fully and completely...and then shifting that paradigm. If I have gained any wisdom in that experience, then I have benefited indeed.

Paul

I really like what Paul said here. I subscribe to the same mindset. When I look back on my time in the church, I extract two main benefits. One: I learned how to study the scriptures. This ultimately lead to me leaving the church, but I learned it from them ;) . I use this skill event today. Second: While this is rarely discussed here, I learned things about the Jesus Christ I believe in. The church provided a contrast. And while it took several years for me to figure it out, I realized that what was being taught from the pulpit of the church was in contrast to what I really thought. Not that this makes any sense, but I learned about Christ from an organization that I think is far from teach Him as He really is.

These two things are very valuable to me. To reference Paul's idea, I could have learned them in other ways, but I learned them in the midst of mormons. I'm quite glad I know these things now, no matter where I learned them.

[miss taken]

I was a very, very, prolific journal writer when I was in the church, and I just read back on some of my thoughts when I was preparing to leave. Here they are..and I am quoting, and this was about 10 years ago!

Positives:

Good Ethics - love, kindness, tolerance, patience, virtue, esteem, industry

Family Values - love of family, spouse and children

An Interesting History - pioneers etc...

Negatives:

Elitism - fostered amongst members i.e. we are the only way and that God works with no one else on an intimate level

Superiority Complex and Arrogance - that above seems to foster in some members

Aloofness - from other peoples ideas, beliefs and inate goodness in others.

Doctrines - on the negro, and racism it fostered
- on polygamy and the chauvinism that fosters and lack of equality

Some of the dubious practices in the temple, i.e. punishments

History of the church - was Joseph Smith what he said he was or a religious megalomaniac with questionable sexual ethics and nepotism, just like David Koresh at Waco Texas.

Self-righteousness and judgement of people casued by living in close-knit groups, using the church to mentally dominate others

Lack of privacy

Giving over ones will to the church i.e. one is looking to the church for answers rather than from within ( a personal response i.e. my response)

Over-emphasis on outward things to make people good, not inward qualities

Lack of social life and no men to interact with on equal terms.

(Back to me now again!)
On a positive note, my mission pres told me to go get an education when I got home, go to college etc. He was giving me good advise.

And teaching on a mission, helped me to realise that I wanted to teach full time.

I met lots of lovely people with whom I formed very close friendships, Some are inactive and we understand each other perfectly, some are still active and we seem to have a good relationship anyway.

I got a lovely message through the post from my VT's today, about Jesus, everything which I agreed with.

[dogzilla]

Miss Taken, I'm sure it's now obvious to you, but back when you wrote that, were you completely oblivious to the diametrically opposed ideas? I read the Good Ethics list and thought, "well yeah, okay, I guess". Then I read the rest and thought, "did she notice how her bad list sort of contradicted her good list?" Or, did you honestly believe that a culture that supposedly promotes love, tolerance, patience, virture and esteem leaves plenty of room for elitism, arrogance, aloofness, self-righteousness, and judgment?

Did the irony in your list escape you?

[miss taken]

Miss Taken, I'm sure it's now obvious to you, but back when you wrote that, were you completely oblivious to the diametrically opposed ideas? I read the Good Ethics list and thought, "well yeah, okay, I guess". Then I read the rest and thought, "did she notice how her bad list sort of contradicted her good list?" Or, did you honestly believe that a culture that supposedly promotes love, tolerance, patience, virture and esteem leaves plenty of room for elitism, arrogance, aloofness, self-righteousness, and judgment?

Did the irony in your list escape you?

Absolutely Dogzilla, yes, but also no!!!!!. I was racking my brains to see Good in what I had experienced. But paradoxically it was probably both things inter-twined. I don't know if I am making myself clear!!! But depending who you were with and who you were listening to, it could be many of the positives I quoted, but it could also be the negatives too... Does that make sense??????

[mindbender]

Absolutely Dogzilla, yes, but also no!!!!!. I was racking my brains to see Good in what I had experienced. But paradoxically it was probably both things inter-twined. I don't know if I am making myself clear!!! But depending who you were with and who you were listening to, it could be many of the positives I quoted, but it could also be the negatives too... Does that make sense??????
the thing i learned from the church was this , never never never never never never never give your mind and intellect into somebody elses hands

[Born Free]

The first things I can see as positive in my Church experience relate to:

Speaking in front of groups
Leadership skills
Teaching skills (Teacher development program)

As I read what dogzilla said, I could see that whilst women are denied the priesthood in Church, that may offer a hidden benefit. There is an old expression that goes something like "If you possess a hammer, everything is a nail". Men with the priesthood had a "hammer" in Mormon culture, and in spite of D&C 121 (which I still value), many many treated everything like it was a "nail"; just use force to make it happen, if you experience any resistance.

Women, by being deprived a hammer, it could be argued, had an opportunity to develop more subtle and effective leaadership skills. I was alerted during post-secondary studies to this thinking by a lecturer who had worked many years in voluntary organisation, where if leaders were coersive, people simply walked.

I am unsure how the Church may have shaped me with respect to alcohol consumption. Australia has a very unhealthy "boys booze hard" culture, and I can only guess if I may have been caught up in that if I had not been a Church member. To this day, I drink in extreme moderation, but do enjoy a good drink (quality, not quantity).

I suspect Mormoism helped creates a level of introspection in me. In some ways I suspect Mormonism acts a bit like Judaeism in that regard, being both positive and negative.

That about pulls me up. I will add others, if I think of them.

Daryl

[dogzilla]

Absolutely Dogzilla, yes, but also no!!!!!. I was racking my brains to see Good in what I had experienced. But paradoxically it was probably both things inter-twined. I don't know if I am making myself clear!!! But depending who you were with and who you were listening to, it could be many of the positives I quoted, but it could also be the negatives too... Does that make sense??????

No, but yes... :D

I think you were trying to make a purse out of a sow's ear... if I have the saying correctly.

[miss taken]

No, but yes... :D

I think you were trying to make a purse out of a sow's ear... if I have the saying correctly.

Dogzilla! You are going to HAVE to explain that one to me!!!!

In UK we have this comedy duo 'Little England', and a young teenage girl (bloke dressed up as) in Chav wear
says
'yeah..but...no...but....yeah...but...no ...but...yeah.'
Pretty funny.

Don't know what that says about me though!! :D

On a more serious note, perhaps the good I saw in the church is also, what attracted me as a young 14 year old girl. I believed in Jesus, they believed in Jesus. I didn't want to go down a hedonistic road, and wanted clear morals socialising with kids who felt the same as me. At school everyone was growing up so quick (if you know what I mean) and I just didn't feel part of it, so kept company with the lads (lot more immature than the girls!) and the youth of the church. (I was 14 when I became fully active in the church). Though having said that, I was told when I was about 16, that 'it was about time you became a PROPER member of this church young lady' . I think I spent the next 15 years trying to work out what a proper member of the church was!!!
Never did figure it out.!!!! :D :D

[dogzilla]

Dogzilla! You are going to HAVE to explain that one to me!!!!


I'm probably going to mess this up, but my understanding of this really old saying is that you were essentially trying to make something beautiful and nice out of something that was just a scrap of something old, dirty and gross. So try as you might to find positives in the church, your "positive" list really came out as negatives, once you thought about. Your attempt to "make a purse" resulted in
"a pig's ear" that was just trying to look like a purse.

Does that make sense? I'll see if I can find a better explanation if it doesn't.

[miss taken]

I'm probably going to mess this up, but my understanding of this really old saying is that you were essentially trying to make something beautiful and nice out of something that was just a scrap of something old, dirty and gross. So try as you might to find positives in the church, your "positive" list really came out as negatives, once you thought about. Your attempt to "make a purse" resulted in
"a pig's ear" that was just trying to look like a purse.

Does that make sense? I'll see if I can find a better explanation if it doesn't.

Thanks Dogzilla (laughs) I got it now!!!! :D

[peter_mary]

I'm probably going to mess this up, but my understanding of this really old saying is that you were essentially trying to make something beautiful and nice out of something that was just a scrap of something old, dirty and gross. So try as you might to find positives in the church, your "positive" list really came out as negatives, once you thought about. Your attempt to "make a purse" resulted in
"a pig's ear" that was just trying to look like a purse.

Does that make sense? I'll see if I can find a better explanation if it doesn't.

Okay, Dogzilla "the Word Cop" :D , the saying is, "Making a silk purse out of a sow's ear." In other words, trying to makes something refined and beautiful out of something that can never be refined and beautiful.

I'm gloating, because when it comes to words and phrases, Dogzilla is almost ALWAYS the one reminding me that I live in farm-country in rural Idaho, so to speak. So t'ain't ever damn day I get ta point out a mistooken word or sumthin from the fangertips of dogziller. Gotta git 'em when I can. :D

Paul

[dogzilla]

Paul, there are 800,000 words in the English language. I can't possibly be expected to spell, define and explain the etymology of ALL of 'em...

And you should be grateful I don't mark up your posts and send them back to you for correction! :D

Geez, mis won litel wurd...

[peter_mary]

Paul, there are 800,000 words in the English language. I can't possibly be expected to spell, define and explain the etymology of ALL of 'em...

And you should be grateful I don't mark up your posts and send them back to you for correction! :D

Geez, mis won litel wurd...

Now you know why I like writing Rulon S. Wesson's columns in the Peep Stone...you can never tell whether I meant it to be written in "hayseed" or if I just don't know what I'm doing. It's most likely the latter...

Paul

[Born Free]

Okay, Dogzilla "the Word Cop" :D , the saying is, "Making a silk purse out of a sow's ear." In other words, trying to makes something refined and beautiful out of something that can never be refined and beautiful.

I'm gloating, because when it comes to words and phrases, Dogzilla is almost ALWAYS the one reminding me that I live in farm-country in rural Idaho, so to speak. So t'ain't ever damn day I get ta point out a mistooken word or sumthin from the fangertips of dogziller. Gotta git 'em when I can. :D

Paul

Part of my wasted youth was on a love of things automotive, and Carol Shelby (a renowned sports car developer who worked extensively with Ford products), was quoted as saying, "You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear, but you get get some hogs to go pretty damned fast!"

Really pressed my buttons! A delightfully playful mix of metaphores (IMHO).

Daryl

[free thinker]

I have destroyed everything that linked me to the church. (excluding freindships), except my mission call, and letter of honorable release. I am proud of the fact that I served well, and selflessly for two very hard years. ;) I am way too selfish to do that now!! :cool:

Just going to keep it positive here. The negatives are well documented in my other posts!!

Free Thinker

[lsands]

I've thought about this topic many times. leaving the LDS church is kind of leaving a bad marriage (I've done both!) You forget all of the good times and how you WERE in love once (at least I was.)

I know I'm different from a lot of exmo's, but I found God in the LDS church. I took the counsel about personal revelation seriously, and learned to ask God for help and direction---and I received it. Eventually that loving guidance led me through and out of the Church.

I used to think that the spiritual experiences I had while in the church meant that the church is true. Now I believe that it means that God loves all of her children, and that all who sincerely seek her will find her---even Mormons.

Laraine

[miss taken]

I've thought about this topic many times. leaving the LDS church is kind of leaving a bad marriage (I've done both!) You forget all of the good times and how you WERE in love once (at least I was.)

I know I'm different from a lot of exmo's, but I found God in the LDS church. I took the counsel about personal revelation seriously, and learned to ask God for help and direction---and I received it. Eventually that loving guidance led me through and out of the Church.

I used to think that the spiritual experiences I had while in the church meant that the church is true. Now I believe that it means that God loves all of her children, and that all who sincerely seek her will find her---even Mormons.

Laraine

I'm with you there on the 'marriage' metaphor Laraine, I feel the same, though never married while active in the church. I read my journal, and I think,'who the heck is this person writing' that couldn't have been me. I did 'too much' self-reflection' in the church, if my journals are anything to go by!!!

[robbiefl]

For starters I don't equate being Mormon with being a member of the LDS Church. (I would consider the Community of Christ or the various Fundamentalist Polygamy cults and sects to be just as legitimately "Mormon" as the LDS.)

I am a Reform Mormon--which is a new movement within Mormonism. (Think of it as being to LDS Mormonism what Reform Judaism is to Orthodox Judaism.)

I learned of Joseph Smith and Mormonism in High School American history class,became fascinated with Mormon History, joined the LDS Church, graduated from BYU and years later (in 2002) realized that the LDS Church was essentially divorcing itself from everything truly unique about 19th century Mormon philosophy and thought in order to be seen as "Christian." So I went inactive, and then discovered Reform Mormonism in January 2004.

WhaI took have gained from Mormonism is a new perspective on religion. During the Nauvoo-period Joseph began introducing a new theology which was completely irreconcilable to Christianity in any way. I don't think Joseph truly understood this, and he was killed before he had the chance to realize how truly heretical (which is a big plus in my estimation) his new doctrine was. But Brigham Young and his successors valued the institutional Church first and foremost, so they began to distance themselves from Joseph's later innovations.

Joseph basically introduced a new paradigm. The Mormon Paradigm, in my opinion, is the greatest theological innovation of the past 2,000 years. Joseph was doing to traditional monotheism what the Enlightenment did to the traditional notion of the divine rights of kings. Joseph introduced a new theology in which the individual--not the collective--is supreme. I don't think Joseph had any idea that his new theology could ultimately overthrow the institutional church he had previously established.

"As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may become."

This concept completely collapses the distance traditionally placed between the human/natural and the divine.

If it's true that "as man now is, God once was"...then theology suddenly becomes one with biology, psychology--as well as with all arts, sciences and disciplines which explore human nature and express the human condition.

If it's true that "as God now is, man may become," then God (whether taken as a literal reality, a literary character or the symbol for a broader abstraction) is nothing more than the fulfillment of human nature's potential.

Also (and this is a major point) Joseph Smith-- in preaching that matter was eternal, that existence was not the product of creation but had always been, and that God was incapable of creating anything from nothingness--was in fact preaching the Primacy of Existence/the Primacy of Nature. THIS is the philosophic base of all rational thought as well as of the Scientific method. The Primacy of Existence/Nature is not accepted by any other religion that I know of. Every other religion of which I'm aware, either teaches that God/Diety/the Divine existed first and then brought forth nature & existence--or else teaches that the value of nature/existence comes from the fact that the Divine/God/Diety is found within it or manifested through it.

The Mormon Paradigm is this: the concept of the eternal, uncreated individual progressing eternally by virtue of gaining knowledge in a universe of matter, energy and intelligences that is eternal--without beginning and without end.

This view has revolutionized the way I approach life. For me it renders Divine all human aspiration and achievement. It has dissolved any concept of Original Sin, Karma and all other religious doctrines attempting to damn and defame human nature.

It elevates rational thought, honest inquiry, the pursuit of knowledge above the so-called vitures of "faith" and blind belief.

The natural rights of the individual and human joy on THIS earth ("men are that they might have joy"..."happiness if the object of our existence..") are more important than the "Self-sacrifice" and "long suffering" revered by traditional religion.

I've written a few essays on what I've gained from Momonism. They're published in the "Reading Materials" section of the Reform Momonism website:
www.reformmormonism.org

[free thinker]

For starters I don't equate being Mormon with being a member of the LDS Church. (I would consider the Community of Christ or the various Fundamentalist Polygamy cults and sects to be just as legitimately "Mormon" as the LDS.)

I am a Reform Mormon--which is a new movement within Mormonism. (Think of it as being to LDS Mormonism what Reform Judaism is to Orthodox Judaism.)

I learned of Joseph Smith and Mormonism in High School American history class,became fascinated with Mormon History, joined the LDS Church, graduated from BYU and years later (in 2002) realized that the LDS Church was essentially divorcing itself from everything truly unique about 19th century Mormon philosophy and thought in order to be seen as "Christian." So I went inactive, and then discovered Reform Mormonism in January 2004.

WhaI took have gained from Mormonism is a new perspective on religion. During the Nauvoo-period Joseph began introducing a new theology which was completely irreconcilable to Christianity in any way. I don't think Joseph truly understood this, and he was killed before he had the chance to realize how truly heretical (which is a big plus in my estimation) his new doctrine was. But Brigham Young and his successors valued the institutional Church first and foremost, so they began to distance themselves from Joseph's later innovations.

Joseph basically introduced a new paradigm. The Mormon Paradigm, in my opinion, is the greatest theological innovation of the past 2,000 years. Joseph was doing to traditional monotheism what the Enlightenment did to the traditional notion of the divine rights of kings. Joseph introduced a new theology in which the individual--not the collective--is supreme. I don't think Joseph had any idea that his new theology could ultimately overthrow the institutional church he had previously established.

"As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may become."

This concept completely collapses the distance traditionally placed between the human/natural and the divine.

If it's true that "as man now is, God once was"...then theology suddenly becomes one with biology, psychology--as well as with all arts, sciences and disciplines which explore human nature and express the human condition.

If it's true that "as God now is, man may become," then God (whether taken as a literal reality, a literary character or the symbol for a broader abstraction) is nothing more than the fulfillment of human nature's potential.

Also (and this is a major point) Joseph Smith-- in preaching that matter was eternal, that existence was not the product of creation but had always been, and that God was incapable of creating anything from nothingness--was in fact preaching the Primacy of Existence/the Primacy of Nature. THIS is the philosophic base of all rational thought as well as of the Scientific method. The Primacy of Existence/Nature is not accepted by any other religion that I know of. Every other religion of which I'm aware, either teaches that God/Diety/the Divine existed first and then brought forth nature & existence--or else teaches that the value of nature/existence comes from the fact that the Divine/God/Diety is found within it or manifested through it.

The Mormon Paradigm is this: the concept of the eternal, uncreated individual progressing eternally by virtue of gaining knowledge in a universe of matter, energy and intelligences that is eternal--without beginning and without end.

This view has revolutionized the way I approach life. For me it renders Divine all human aspiration and achievement. It has dissolved any concept of Original Sin, Karma and all other religious doctrines attempting to damn and defame human nature.

It elevates rational thought, honest inquiry, the pursuit of knowledge above the so-called vitures of "faith" and blind belief.

The natural rights of the individual and human joy on THIS earth ("men are that they might have joy"..."happiness if the object of our existence..") are more important than the "Self-sacrifice" and "long suffering" revered by traditional religion.

I've written a few essays on what I've gained from Momonism. They're published in the "Reading Materials" section of the Reform Momonism website:
www.reformmormonism.org

Thank you for the well thought out and informative post.

I would like to clarify some things out of curiosity.


Do you beleive that god has a body of flesh and bones?


Does he live on a planet called Kolob?


Does he have many wives?


Is polygamy the order of heaven?

free thinker

[free thinker]

I am opening this thread again so that some who have not, can see that we have stated these benefits.

free thinker

[lunaverse]

Here are a few things I got out of Mormonism that I don't feel I have to (or had to) "overcome":

1) Determination. When I set my mind to something, I have a lot of energy and persistance to get it done. This has brought me much success in my career. The tricky part is setting my mind to something. :)

2) Spend-thriftiness. I am very good with saving money. To the point where I'm trying to loosen up lately, and find a balance. It means my savings account is huge, so maybe someday I can buy a house. Once this housing market lightens up a little...

3) Honesty. At the age of 21, I chose this as my most important value. It still is. It's been a good friend to me.

4) The glory of God is intelligence.

5) We can all be gods. Yes, I still believe this. If there's an immortal or reincarnating afterlife (which I'm agnostic about), and if we keep what we've learned, and if time is eternal, then there is no logical end to what we can learn... and therefore one day we may become something we humans would consider Gods. 'course we probably won't be very impressed with ourselves, and we'll just keep plodding away. That is... if there's an afterlife.

6) Moderation.

7) Self-control.

8) Music. Piano and singing, and later guitar, though guitar didn't have much to do with Church. I don't really use any of these skills much anymore, though.

9) The courage to be odd. I was odd anyway, but Mormonism taught me to be proud of being wierd.

10) The opportunity to study mind control. That will come in handy later, when I start looking at the media and government in this light. :) More fun things to write about!

11) Homeschooling. While there were some negative aspects of being further isolated from the rest of the world, it also kept me from being further abused by school bullies, mentally ill teachers, and extremely boring repetition of things I'd already figured out on my own.

12) How to avoid MLMs and be skeptical about quacks. My parents tried just about everything, so I learned from their mistakes.

13) Millions of nieces and nephews. Some of them are actually cool. Maybe some day I'll be able to get to know them better.

14) My son. While he's a handful and the source of all remaining stress in my life, I'm still grateful for him. Had I been allowed to have sex at 18, I wouldn't have felt so pressured to marry the guy... I could have educated myself about the safety issues, had sex with him, gotten him out of my system, and gone on to college. I probably never would have gotten around to having kids. Instead, I married the bastard, got preggers, and divorced him. And now I have a cute percocious 11 year old with ADHD who is turning out to be a fine geek, just like his mother.

15) Saturday's Warriors. I still have a soft spot for this, and a few other pieces of shameless propaganda. I mean, the music was really good...

16) Journals. I haven't been 100% faithful all these years, but there's quite enough material. Not sure what I'll do with it all, but the process of writing them helped me sort myself out, and practice my writing skills.

17) The basics. I don't kill, steal, maim, or torture. I probably wouldn't have anyway, but.. well, I'll count it anyway.

18) An appreciation of freedom that I never could have had without knowing the imprisonment of the mind.

19) Work ethic.

20) The belief that developing talents is a value.

21) I learned how to shop at thrift stores without being ashamed.

22) I'm still a capitalist. Go free markets! Woo!

Luna

[why me]

Here are a few things I got out of Mormonism that I don't feel I have to (or had to) "overcome":

1) Determination. When I set my mind to something, I have a lot of energy and persistance to get it done. This has brought me much success in my career. The tricky part is setting my mind to something. :)

2) Spend-thriftiness. I am very good with saving money. To the point where I'm trying to loosen up lately, and find a balance. It means my savings account is huge, so maybe someday I can buy a house. Once this housing market lightens up a little...

3) Honesty. At the age of 21, I chose this as my most important value. It still is. It's been a good friend to me.

4) The glory of God is intelligence.

5) We can all be gods. Yes, I still believe this. If there's an immortal or reincarnating afterlife (which I'm agnostic about), and if we keep what we've learned, and if time is eternal, then there is no logical end to what we can learn... and therefore one day we may become something we humans would consider Gods. 'course we probably won't be very impressed with ourselves, and we'll just keep plodding away. That is... if there's an afterlife.

6) Moderation.

7) Self-control.

8) Music. Piano and singing, and later guitar, though guitar didn't have much to do with Church. I don't really use any of these skills much anymore, though.

9) The courage to be odd. I was odd anyway, but Mormonism taught me to be proud of being wierd.

10) The opportunity to study mind control. That will come in handy later, when I start looking at the media and government in this light. :) More fun things to write about!

11) Homeschooling. While there were some negative aspects of being further isolated from the rest of the world, it also kept me from being further abused by school bullies, mentally ill teachers, and extremely boring repetition of things I'd already figured out on my own.

12) How to avoid MLMs and be skeptical about quacks. My parents tried just about everything, so I learned from their mistakes.

13) Millions of nieces and nephews. Some of them are actually cool. Maybe some day I'll be able to get to know them better.

14) My son. While he's a handful and the source of all remaining stress in my life, I'm still grateful for him. Had I been allowed to have sex at 18, I wouldn't have felt so pressured to marry the guy... I could have educated myself about the safety issues, had sex with him, gotten him out of my system, and gone on to college. I probably never would have gotten around to having kids. Instead, I married the bastard, got preggers, and divorced him. And now I have a cute percocious 11 year old with ADHD who is turning out to be a fine geek, just like his mother.

15) Saturday's Warriors. I still have a soft spot for this, and a few other pieces of shameless propaganda. I mean, the music was really good...

16) Journals. I haven't been 100% faithful all these years, but there's quite enough material. Not sure what I'll do with it all, but the process of writing them helped me sort myself out, and practice my writing skills.

17) The basics. I don't kill, steal, maim, or torture. I probably wouldn't have anyway, but.. well, I'll count it anyway.

18) An appreciation of freedom that I never could have had without knowing the imprisonment of the mind.

19) Work ethic.

20) The belief that developing talents is a value.

21) I learned how to shop at thrift stores without being ashamed.

22) I'm still a capitalist. Go free markets! Woo!

Luna
Good post Luna, except for point 22! :) I equate capitalism with satanism and not with christianity. Capitalism has its victims---the poor, the alienated, and the marginalized. Not to mention the native americans who were basically wiped out because of private ownership of land and the greed (profit) for resouces.

And the african-americans were enslaved as private property of the slave owners. I suppose that this was the 'ownership society' of the 17th and 18th and 19th century. Such is self-interest.

The good ol' USA was founded not only on the theories of Adam Smith but also on the blood of people. And so no go markets for me. But I would say: go life...within the collective heart of the human being.

And what does it mean: Go free markets! The free market is amoral and to my mind---not one to base a life upon.

And from the book of mormon I found that the most properous societies were those societies that based their understandings on the common and not on difference.

[robbiefl]

Thank you for the well thought out and informative post.

I would like to clarify some things out of curiosity.


Do you beleive that god has a body of flesh and bones?

If a personal God or Gods exist, then I would say that like everything else which exists He/They would be bound by the same natural laws which govern all existence.

I think there is a great virtue in objectifying God because it makes the concepts of "Godliness"/"Godhood"/"God understandable to the rational mind. Objectifying Diety as an exalted human (or humans) collapses the distance between the human and the divine.

Otherwise, the concept of God remains a vague, subjective abstraction--too broad to be of any real use to humans.

Also, it leads to the type of reasoning put forward by many traditional monotheistic theologians when discussing such Divine attributes as love and justice, etc.--which ends up being something like this: "We can never understand God's love (or mercy, justice, etc.) because it is different from human love (or mercy. jutsice, etc.)"

To my mind, unless these attributes in Deity are the same as they are in humans, why call them by the same names?

As a Reform Mormon, I don't believe that human progression is dependent on either worshipping a personal God or obeying some personal God's commandments and will; progression comes through gaining knowledge, using one's Free Agency to pursue vaules, and effectively dealing with the consequence of one's actions and choices.

However, the concept of a personal God can clarify one's thinking, inspire one to press on. etc.

I would tend to agree with Orson Pratt who suggested that progression is aided by the worshipping (reverencing, valuing) the virtues and attributes that one envisions a personal God possessing--rather than the worship of a personal God Him/Herself.

Does he live on a planet called Kolob?

As a Reform Mormon, I take the Book of Abraham (as well all other scripture) as a work of art, not as literal history. Kolob was envisioned by Joseph Smith to teach a truth: any intelligent being (human or divine) exists WITHIN nature--on a planet, orbiting a sun/star, within the context of time.

If there are personal Gods/Goddesses, then yes, they-- like us-- must literarly EXIST within a planetary system--the same as all known life forms.

(Just a technicality: Joseph envisioned Kolob not as the planet on which God lives, but as the star nearest the planet on which the God of this world dwells.)

Does he have many wives?

Obviously early Utah Mormons envisioned God as a polygamous. To my mind, the concept is of no importance to anyone. If a personal God exists, then like humans--and all known animal lifeforms--he would have a sexual nature. In the eternity imagined by early Utah Mormons, Gods--like humans--are free to form any matrimonial alliances they wish.
Do I personally enivision my Heaven Parents as being involved in a polygamous union?
No, but as with my biological parents. the sex lives of my Heavenly Parents would be their own business, not mine.


Is polygamy the order of heaven?

As a Reform Mormon is do not believe that God ever commanded polygamy--or monogamous marriage, or sexual relations of any kind-- in order for us to obtain salvation or exaltation.

As for "the order of heaven," sexuality and sexual relationships are vitally important to human nature. As Mormonism envisions Gods to be exalted humans, then as much as this visions represents a literal reality, any "order of heaven" would include sexual relationships. I tend to be a modern romantic, therefore monogamy has great appeal to me. But I know that human nature is polygamous. Individuals are free to form any matrimonial alliances they chose--but I hold that mutual repect and love should be the foundation of these relationships, and if one becomes unhappy with the relationship, he/she must always be free to end it.
ROBBIE