Forcing Merchants to Close on Sundays?

[silverfox]

Following is a story from today's Deseret News (Salt Lake). I always find these stories fascinating. It amazes me how much control there is in politics. Banning alchohol sales? Forcing merchants to be closed on Sunday? What the hell? No, the church is not mentioned but you tell me if there is influence from church members or not? Very interesting. Are there stories like this from other parts of the nation or world?

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600115413,00.html

CEDAR HILLS — The days of prohibition may be long gone, but at tonight's City Council meeting, the bedroom community of Cedar Hills may become the third city in northern Utah County to ban all alcohol sales.

Alpine and Highland already have such ordinances on the books, and many Utah County cities prohibit alcohol sales on Sunday. For Cedar Hills, banning alcohol sales could jeopardize some commercial development in the city, specifically a Smith's grocery store in a planned development near Lone Peak High School.

"It was written specifically in our contract by Smith's that (an alcohol ban) would make our contract, at their discretion, voidable," said project developer Mark Hampton.

Smith's Food and Drug pulled out of a planned development in Highland following that city's decision to ban alcohol sales and require Sunday closings. A Smith's spokesman could not be reached for comment Monday, but some believe the chain elected to build a store in Saratoga Springs instead because of Highland's ordinances.

Cedar Hills council members voiced strong support for the proposed ordinance at their last meeting Feb. 15 but decided to hold off on adopting it until an enforcement section could be added.

Smith's representatives reportedly walked out of the meeting, but Hampton said no decisions have been made.


"I had a call from Kroger, who owns Smith's, and they expressed their desire to wait and see if the ordinance is passed before they make any decisions," Hampton said.

City Councilman Rob Fotheringham said he supports the ordinance because of the negative impacts alcohol has on society.

"Alcohol is involved in the deaths of over 100,000 Americans a year, making it the third leading cause of preventable death, and alcohol problems cost our economy about $200 billion (per) year," he said. "Alcohol might begin as a personal issue, but it is clear that its negative impact is not contained at that level. From a public policy standpoint, it seems prudent to try and counteract that negative impact by prohibiting sales within the city."

Councilman Darin Lowder said while he supported the ordinance two weeks ago, comments from some residents have made him think twice.

"Some residents approached me and said, 'Look, Darin, this city's got to move on; we need the money, we need the convenience. We need to let people run their own lives and worry about themselves. Let's not try to legislate morality,' " he said.

Lowder said while passing the ordinance could increase public safety, he must weigh commercial concerns as well.

"The ideal for the community would, no doubt, be no alcohol sales and businesses closed on Sunday," he said. "But when you weigh it against the risk of losing all commercial development there, I'm not sure that's a risk I can live with."

Smith's is not the only grocery store that has considered moving into the development, but Hampton said other stores, including Wal-Mart, Albertson's and Associated Foods, opted out for various reasons.

"We've negotiated with several different grocers," he said. "The two groups that came forward were Wal-Mart and Smith's, and I can tell you this, Smith's is more lenient to some of those neighborhood issues than Wal-Mart. I got a phone call last week from the Wal-Mart folks saying, 'It's a good thing that you went with Smith's, because we would never even consider being there if they yanked the alcohol away from us.' "

Hampton said the 18-acre development won't survive without a grocer anchor.

"All I can tell you is if we can't get an anchor, we can't do the project," he said. "You cannot support 18 acres worth of business park or retail center without an anchor."

Lowder said he expects two councilmen, Fortheringham and James Parker, to push the ordinance at Tuesday's meeting, but he might be able to convince the remaining two to vote against it.

"I think they could possibly be persuaded," he said. "If it comes down to having nothing or having something less than ideal, maybe we just settle for less than ideal, be happy, and move on with our lives."

Hampton said he hopes Smith's will remain part of the development even if the ordinance is passed.

"I'm still hopeful that they will see through the beer issue," he said. "The City Council has said they can be open on Sunday, so I'm hoping that (Smith's) will decide to compromise on the alcohol."

[peter_mary]

I wonder if they will only allow their grocery stores to sell meat "in winter and times of famine?" Wonder how the Mormons would feel if the PETA people or the Vegans pushed for legislation that required compliance with that particular bit of Mormon doctrine? Or what if we required everyone to step on a scale on the way into the grocery store, and they would be prohibited from purchasing certain things if they are more than 10% over their ideal weight? We love it when we reign in other people on issues to which we happen to be opposed, but we get kind of sensitive if anyone wants to step on OUR toes...

It's time for billboard in Utah County that simply says,

"Teach the people correct principles and let them govern themselves." --Joseph Smith (or had you forgotten?)

Paul

[dogzilla]

I wonder if they will only allow their grocery stores to sell meat "in winter and times of famine?" Wonder how the Mormons would feel if the PETA people or the Vegans pushed for legislation that required compliance with that particular bit of Mormon doctrine? Or what if we required everyone to step on a scale on the way into the grocery store, and they would be prohibited from purchasing certain things if they are more than 10% over their ideal weight? We love it when we reign in other people on issues to which we happen to be opposed, but we get kind of sensitive if anyone wants to step on OUR toes...
Paul

Hey Paul! Smells like a Peep Stone story to me! heh

FTR, I spent two years in the Second Most Conservative Place in the U.S. (tm), Greenville, SC, home of Bob Jones University and several thousand really repressed college students. They also had blue laws: alcohol sales stopped at midnight on Saturday night unless it was a private club. See, the SC legislators all liked to drink beer while they played golf on Sundays. So the private clubs, i.e. golf courses/clubs could still sell alcohol.

The bars were able to form "private clubs" as well. You'd show up at 11:30 on Saturday night (you exmos might not be aware of the #1 Law of Clubbing: only the ugly people go out before 11p.m.!), sign up on a clipboard to "join" the club for free and once you were a "member" you could drink till 2 a.m. like everyone else in this country. Had to stock up before you went home too, because finding a store or restaurant with a liquor license open on Sundays was like... getting beer on Sunday in Salt Lake City. Easier said than done but good plan-ahead skills is all you need. ("Oh my HECK! It's Saturday afternoon! We better get out and buy BOOZE!")

[Born Free]

Our news in Brisbane has been covering the city's and State Governments response to rising levels of after midnight violence, largely fuelled by booze. The last flurry was triggered by a young man being bashed and kicked, resulting in his death, all over a pair of designer shoes, at about 4 am in the city centre. The authorities are now going to trial a 3am lockdown of clubs, meaning no one not on the premises by 3am can be admitted.

I see the problem here is that as a society, we assume people have a right to drink (I agree with that), BUT then we uncouple that from holding them responsible, when their actions are extreme. We fail to hold them fully responsible for their actions if they act inappropriately against others or others property whilst under the influence. In other words we have uncoupled rights from responsibilities, which I believe never works.

So, I see these issues as being very problematic whilst basic human rights AND responsibilities are not addressed. While that goes unaddressed, the "society" will use it coersive powers to reign in everyone to catch a few problem puppies.

So it is not just Utard that is fumbling this one.

Daryl

[noodle]

Hey Paul! Smells like a Peep Stone story to me! heh

FTR, I spent two years in the Second Most Conservative Place in the U.S. (tm), Greenville, SC, home of Bob Jones University and several thousand really repressed college students. They also had blue laws: alcohol sales stopped at midnight on Saturday night unless it was a private club. See, the SC legislators all liked to drink beer while they played golf on Sundays. So the private clubs, i.e. golf courses/clubs could still sell alcohol.

The bars were able to form "private clubs" as well. You'd show up at 11:30 on Saturday night (you exmos might not be aware of the #1 Law of Clubbing: only the ugly people go out before 11p.m.!), sign up on a clipboard to "join" the club for free and once you were a "member" you could drink till 2 a.m. like everyone else in this country. Had to stock up before you went home too, because finding a store or restaurant with a liquor license open on Sundays was like... getting beer on Sunday in Salt Lake City. Easier said than done but good plan-ahead skills is all you need. ("Oh my HECK! It's Saturday afternoon! We better get out and buy BOOZE!")
Hey Dogzilla (I love that name),

I'm a former South Carolinian (from near Greenville) who very well remembers blue laws. We couldn't buy pantyhose for church on Sunday because they weren't a "necessary" item. My parents are originally from Georgia. There are still "dry" counties there (no alcohol sales), and I suspect there are some in SC as well. When I get frustrated with things here in Utah, I remind myself that things are worse (in my opinion) in the bible belt. I find the many religious billboards in the south entertaining. One of my favorites: "I'm Watching You" - God

[Born Free]

For those of us outside US culture, what is the origin of the term blue laws?

Daryl

[noodle]

For those of us outside US culture, what is the origin of the term blue laws?

Daryl

Daryl,

Got this off of Brittanica Online for Blue Laws:

U.S. statute regulating work, commerce, and amusements on Sundays.

The name is said to derive from a list of Sabbath regulations published (on blue paper or in blue wrappers) in New Haven, Conn., in 1781. Throughout colonial New England such laws regulated morals and conduct. Most lapsed after the American Revolution, but some, such as prohibitions against the Sunday sale of alcoholic beverages, remain on the books in some areas.

[tjohnson]

"Teach the people correct principles and let them govern themselves." --Joseph Smith (or had you forgotten?)

I'm ready for this. I was not always for the billboard idea, but now I'm beginning to like it more and more... I think one of my favorites (that I heard from Jeff) was:

Save 10%
www.postmormon.org

:D :D

I would be game for a billboard even in a smaller community (less expensive). Who's interested?

[silverfox]

I'm ready for this. I was not always for the billboard idea, but now I'm beginning to like it more and more... I think one of my favorites (that I heard from Jeff) was:

Save 10%
www.postmormon.org

:D :D

I would be game for a billboard even in a smaller community (less expensive). Who's interested?

I'm interested in billboards where ever we can put them. Because I wish I had been aware of boards like this as soon as I started questioning the church years ago. Had I known I wasn't alone and had I had so many resources and links made available to me I would have gotten out sooner and would have been happier sooner.

What about flyers? Flyers we can post on community bulletin boards - several merchants in my little town have community bulletin boards. Jeff would you object if I create some flyers to hang up? I was surprised to find that a buddy of mine in my 'hood left the church right in the middle of being in the Primary Presidency. She kept it hush hush even from me until I started talking about it. And another neighbor whom I don't know so well left the church (her hubby was in the EQ presidency at the time) and joined the local Methodist church. There are more of "us" than we think.

Anyway, I am all for trying to get the word out. Now for you church monitors or TBMs who lurk here...this has NOTHING to do wtih trying to persuade anyone to leave the church. It's all about offering support for those who are in situations we have been in.

[dogzilla]

I'm ready for this. I was not always for the billboard idea, but now I'm beginning to like it more and more... I think one of my favorites (that I heard from Jeff) was:

Save 10%
www.postmormon.org

:D :D

I would be game for a billboard even in a smaller community (less expensive). Who's interested?

That's hilarious.

A friend of mine and I have toyed with the idea of collecting photos of church marquees (sp?) around the South, because many of 'em are so funny. We'd put 'em up on a web site, like mulletjunky.com.

[silverfox]

Back to the topic....alcohol in Utard is much lower in content. Beer I think has 3% alcohol - not sure what it is elsewhere, isn't it 6%??? Liquor stores are closed on Sundays. Used to be you couldn't buy beer until 1 pm from local stores on any day but I believe that may have changed. Bars close at 1 a.m. You can't have two drinks in front of you in a bar. One at a time. Can't have a half full one and order another one, etc. So there are already some pretty strict guidelines.

These little towns, IMHO, are only forcing consumers to travel to the closest nearby town to buy their alcohol. Or to shop on Sunday. Taking probably much needed revenue elsewhere.

What disturbs me most about the article is the fact they want to force merchants to close on Sundays. What benefit is this other than religious? Why would they want to close a WalMart or huge grocery store like Smiths on a Sunday? My thoughts are that they are trying to "weed out" their residents. Get rid of non members and have a whole little Mo community. (can everyone say, awwwwwwwww how cute?)

Sad to see people close themselves off so deeply - they are missing out. D I V E R S I T Y, people!!!!! Can you imagine working for some of these people? Not sure about other companies but my huge corp company I work for is real big on diversity.

I'm rambling. Yeah, I'd still really like to move. Being just this close to this kind of stuff irks me. One day it could be my little town. (I doubt it, my little town is pretty diverse for Utard...there is a military base here sooooooooo....)

[Jeff_Ricks]

I'm ready for this. I was not always for the billboard idea, but now I'm beginning to like it more and more... I think one of my favorites (that I heard from Jeff) was:

Save 10%
www.postmormon.org

:D :D

I would be game for a billboard even in a smaller community (less expensive). Who's interested?

I love the billoard idea Paul! Not for you but for others who may not be aware, I want to post the following caution:

When in my twenties and early thirties I made a living as an owner of a sign and billboard business in Rexburg, Idaho. I can say with some level of experience that because billboards are such a powerful (yet relatively inexpensive) medium we might only have one shot at it before the Church applies pressure in a few strategic places and shuts us down. Other former Mormon groups have tried to get billboards up and have not found a billboard company that would take their business. I’m as anxious as anyone to see some billboards go up but we have to be very careful and methodical in how we plan and execute a billboard program. While I was initially turned away too, after soliciting the help of an ACLU attorney I was able to get a verbal okay from the president of the largest billboard company in Utah. One thing the attorney pointed out was that as long as the billboards can’t be construed as offensive the law is on our side we are turned down. That said, the farther back we are from that line that becomes “offensive” the better off we are when we first come out of the chute. But once the Mormon public acclimates to our presence along roads and freeways we can begin trying messages that are a little bolder. My guess is we need an initial 3 to 6 months after we’ve put up our first billboards before we try something a little bolder. My ad copy that I initially approached the billboard company with said, “Be yourself!” Under that was the website address. Something as simple and non-offensive as that caused the president enough discomfort that he initially flat turned me down. But after talking with the ACLU attorney I went back and told him that I was determined to make it happen, so if he turned me down I had other avenues I could pursue to make it happen. He got my drift and changed his mind. But it's still an area we where we must tread lightly.

So, getting billboards up is something we have to do just right or we forever miss our opportunity. Don’t get me wrong, I have no doubt that we can get a billboard program up and in place for the long term; we just have to be very careful and methodical in how we plan and execute it. I would love to see a billboard someday that says, “Tired of Joseph’s Myth?” followed by “PostMormon.org.” (I don't take credit for the idea) But initially what we really want to do is get people to the website not anger them or scare them off with something a little on the edge. We can do anything and say anything we want on the website, but I feel that a tasteful non-offensive approach serves us best here as well.

So let’s keep up the excitement about our billboard plans; I don’t mean to throw any cold water on it. Just be aware that it’s an area where we must plan and carefully execute.

Jeff

[dogzilla]

but I feel that a tasteful non-offensive approach serves us best here as well.

Oh, well, then I'm out! :p

Kidding... This sort of sounds like a newsgroup sort of project, rather than trying to start a thread and organize this publicly, shouldn't we maybe recruit a committee of volunteers to help come up with non-offensive and tasteful slogans, someone else to organize working with the billboard companies on placement, etc.? What say ye?

[dogzilla]

(And only to tie this back to the original post)

"Open on Sundays!"
www.postmormon.org

[silverfox]

I felt the Billboard discussion deserved a thread of it's own so I have copied the billboard posts to a new thread called, "POST MORMON BILLBOARD DISCUSSION". Please continue the discussion there.