Labels

[bzcutah]

Here is a song that reminds me of the "anti-Mormon" label.

It's called "un-american (http://www.sharedvoice.org/unamerican/pop.html)"..

It illustrates how people condemn those Americans for being against the war, when the war is totally rediculas in the first place.

It reminds me of the "anti-Mormon label" the LDS people give to someone who disagrees with their religion.

Instead of acknowlegding them as a person, they automatically assign them a label of "anti-Mormon" so that they can disregard their opinion before it is even stated.

Ignorance is bliss they say.


Anyway, here is the song. It's AWESOME!

http://www.sharedvoice.org/unamerican/
or try: http://www.sharedvoice.org/unamerican/pop.html

P.S.
Does anyone in this community play guitar?

[silverfox]

Here is a song that reminds me of the "anti-Mormon" label.

It's called "un-american (http://www.sharedvoice.org/unamerican/pop.html)"..

It illustrates how people condemn those Americans for being against the war, when the war is totally rediculas in the first place.

It reminds me of the "anti-Mormon label" the LDS people give to someone who disagrees with their religion.

Instead of acknowlegding them as a person, they automatically assign them a label of "anti-Mormon" so that they can disregard their opinion before it is even stated.

Ignorance is bliss they say.


Anyway, here is the song. It's AWESOME!

http://www.sharedvoice.org/unamerican/
or try: http://www.sharedvoice.org/unamerican/pop.html

P.S.
Does anyone in this community play guitar?

I just got involved with True Majority about 8 months ago. I find it interesting and like seeing the different angles. Thanks for the link. I enjoyed it alot. Make you wonder if that much money was spent on humanity how close would it bring us all? What kind of impact would it have? What kind of example would it set? Interesting.

[bzcutah]

I just got involved with True Majority about 8 months ago. I find it interesting and like seeing the different angles. Thanks for the link. I enjoyed it alot. Make you wonder if that much money was spent on humanity how close would it bring us all? What kind of impact would it have? What kind of example would it set? Interesting.
While we're discussion being pro-active.

Amen! ;)


http://www.truemajorityaction.org

[peter_mary]

bzcutah,

You are SO spot on...and thank you for sending the link to that music video.

It is ironic that what set Joseph Smith apart from the religious leaders of his day was his willingness to question the status quo. That made him a prophet. As Church members today, if you question the status quo you are an apostate.

In the same vein this music video notes that it was people standing up for what they believed in, first and foremost freedom, that led to the the revolution in 1776. Isn't it ironic that if we stand up for those same ideals, we are now "un-American."

You're so right...the labels are hurtful, because they are used to denigrate and ultimately to attempt to manipulate people into a single line of group-think.

Sigh...

Paul

[bzcutah]

I would say that is THE most admirable thing about Joseph Smith, Paul. That is a great point!

I love the pre-face of Grant Palmers recent book, with the quote from Hugh B. Brown.

I think if Mr. Brown was still alive, he would really enjoy this song too!

Thanks for your in put SilverFox and Paul!

[bzcutah]

I posted this on a different message board:

The anti-Mormon label (http://groups.msn.com/mormonwhatdolatterdaysaintsbelieve/seriousinquiry.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=151055&LastModified=4675512598385088766)


------------------------------------------------------
More thought on the "anti-Mormon label" agenda.

I feel that grouping people together with the label of "anti-Mormon," is similar to calling the LDS church a cult.

This is how I view it.

There are so many people and so many references that fit the "anti-Mormon" label. If someone disagrees with the LDS agenda, with the LDS doctrine, with LDS politics, ect.. They can easily and often are lumped into a group of people labeled by some LDS as "anti-Mormon"..

This doesn't mean that these people totally disagree with the LDS church necessarily. For example, Sceva says that I fit into that group.

But if a person disagrees with 10% of the LDS agenda, but agree's with 90% of the LDS agenda. Does that make him/her an "anti-Mormon"?

You see, I agree with MOST of the LDS principles, but I disagree with a few of them. I disagree with Joseph Smith's testiony in PofGP Chapter 1 mostly, and everything else surrounding that. Where Joseph Smith goes into great detail about how other churches are abominable to God.

So I am anti-Mormon becuase I disagree with that agenda?

So does that mean that since many Mormons disagree that any other church can be "the true church" that they are anti-Christian?

Or does it mean since some Mormons believe that God isn't a spirit but a man, that they are anti-Christian for those who believe that God is a spirit?

It can get complicated, and lengthly.

But I am just saying that I am not anti-Mormon. I am only in disagreement with mynute amounts of the LDS doctrine. I am certainly not anti- any particular Mormon person, and in fact I have the utmost respect for most Mormons.

So this "anti-Mormon" label is mostly a prejudist statement, used to silence those who have a differing opinion, and to lump them into a group of people who are the enemy, who are "against" Mormons.
When in reality, this is a total falsity.

Labeling someone "anti-Mormon" in my opinion, is similar to calling a black person the "n" word... It is offensive to me, and it is a lie to call me "anti-Mormon".

[silverfox]

Here is a song that reminds me of the "anti-Mormon" label.

It's called "un-american (http://www.sharedvoice.org/unamerican/pop.html)"..

It illustrates how people condemn those Americans for being against the war, when the war is totally rediculas in the first place.

It reminds me of the "anti-Mormon label" the LDS people give to someone who disagrees with their religion.

Instead of acknowlegding them as a person, they automatically assign them a label of "anti-Mormon" so that they can disregard their opinion before it is even stated.

Ignorance is bliss they say.


Anyway, here is the song. It's AWESOME!

http://www.sharedvoice.org/unamerican/
or try: http://www.sharedvoice.org/unamerican/pop.html

P.S.
Does anyone in this community play guitar?

I have an older brother who I don't hear from. Ever. I send him sweet little hello notes and get no response. I emailed this link to all my email buddies and family.

This is the only time I get a response from him in which he tells me to not send him commie propaganda. In which I always reply, "Hey, nice to know you are still alive and kicking! Hope things are well."

So what are your thoughts on why some folks view this as commie propaganda? I don't feel commie at all. I don't feel my views are commie. So does this mean that anyone who doesn't support Bush's oil war is commie? I don't get it. Where do they get this? Of course you will never see my brother over there fighting Bush's war. Hell no. He just likes to direct traffic from his sofa. How ironic.

[silverfox]

....would all the supporters of the war be upset? Is it just okay when HE decides to end it? Will Bush supporters protest to continue the end of the war? Will they carry signs saying Make War Not Love? What kind of reason is acceptable to them for Bush to end the war?


Just thinking outloud. (still trying to figure out why my brother thought the link was commie propaganda and has so kindly nicknamed me "commie".) I should also mention my brother refuses to pay taxes. He hasn't filed income tax for 5 yrs and is on the verge of Uncle Sam taking some serious action. He refuses to pay property tax. He had his first home taken away about 10 years ago due to refusal to pay property tax.....he is protesting in his own way.

So I guess to him it's okay to be against parts of the gov't that you don't like unless it's war. Then you are a commie????

???????????? :Crazy:

[bzcutah]

Is it a way to keep distance between he and you?
To protect himself from some force or power that he deems possibly greater than himself?
An insecurity of his childhood?
Social brainwashing.


I use to be a bum, in Seattle as a kid I lived on the streets for nearly 3 years.

I would sit in the park and wonder these things to myself about other people. I would just watch people, and try to understand their body language. I would try to see where they hurt, what pained them.. What made them happy. What made them try..

I didn't understand myself very well at that point, and I was trying so desprately to make sense of it all... All of the pain, all of the joy... Things that I mostly didn't have at that point.

I was so numb from my circumstance, it was hard to feel....

Which brings me back to the subject. The labels. The classification of who I was, who I had become, who I was destine to be...

The labels really got me down..

[Born Free]

I posted this on a different message board:

The anti-Mormon label (http://groups.msn.com/mormonwhatdolatterdaysaintsbelieve/seriousinquiry.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=151055&LastModified=4675512598385088766)


------------------------------------------------------
More thought on the "anti-Mormon label" agenda.

I feel that grouping people together with the label of "anti-Mormon," is similar to calling the LDS church a cult.

This is how I view it.

There are so many people and so many references that fit the "anti-Mormon" label. If someone disagrees with the LDS agenda, with the LDS doctrine, with LDS politics, ect.. They can easily and often are lumped into a group of people labeled by some LDS as "anti-Mormon"..


I believe that the insistence that if you are not Pro-Mo, then you are Anti-Mo says more about Mormons than about anyone labelled as Anti.

Seeing the world and issues as either black or white, right or wrong, pro or anti, is a hallmark of a particular stage of mental development........ and not a very advanced one at that!

The other explanation is low intellect - not too many neurons lined up in a row!

Few issues in life are black or white, so one has to question where an individual or group is coming from who sees the world and issues as black or white.

I had a conversation with an active and senior Mo recently regarding homosexuality. It quickly became apparent that he knew zilch about the scientific take on homosexuality and its occurance in the animal world and the resultant moral and religous dilema that creates. So his black and white view on that issue thrived on ignorance, and the avoidance of focussing any intellect or empathy on the issue.

One is left to consider whether it is lack of hardware or willful dumbing down that enables so many Mos to persist in their B&W views. The critical issue is that we have nothing to defend! They are the people who across numerous areas function at an extremely childish level of maturity (and are proud of it).

Daryl

[bzcutah]

For any educated person to overlook the ratio of homosexuality in nature is quite strange..

I think we as humans may gadge it differently than animals do though.

Animals are always trying to one up each other. One animal pisses on a tree, another animal asserts his dominance and pisses on the same tree.

Humans having pissing contests too.

But what about one animal mounting another animal.
Asserting dominance, or getting his jollies off?

Maybe a little of both.

As for humans. From a Christian POV. I see homosexuality as an trial, a challenge, something to overcome. Like a person born as a quadrapalegic.
It's a symptom of the sin in this world.

I have done a little research on it, and it is said that a human male baby and a human female baby are pretty much the same for the first 3 days of their exposure to the outside world. But around the 3rd day, a baby boy's brain is flooded with testosterone severing the neuro-membrains that make boys and girls similar.

Some boys make a bit less testosterone, and end up staying more connected, in ways that other boys are severed.

Growing up in a male dominated environment, with boys that have high testostorone, and are therefore very rough and rambunctious. The boy that is more like a girl than any other boys, starts to feel queer (different)...

Growing up they can choose to be accepted by the gay community, or they can try hard to fit into a hetro-community that is unlike them. Or they can be loners.

I have met some very feminine hetro men.

So homosexualtiy is a genetic condition. But I don't think it is as simple as "oh, he was born gay".. I think even though the hormones, and brain activity spark the interest, the person is ultimately the one who chooses one way or the other.

[lsands]

I will definitely remember this the next time someone says I am "anti-Mormon". It does happen to me occasionally, and I have not had a good reply before now. It's the manipulation of "if you're not for us, you're against us."

Laraine

[Born Free]

For any educated person to overlook the ratio of homosexuality in nature is quite strange..

I think we as humans may gadge it differently than animals do though.

Animals are always trying to one up each other. One animal pisses on a tree, another animal asserts his dominance and pisses on the same tree.

Humans having pissing contests too.

But what about one animal mounting another animal.
Asserting dominance, or getting his jollies off?

Maybe a little of both.

As for humans. From a Christian POV. I see homosexuality as an trial, a challenge, something to overcome. Like a person born as a quadrapalegic.
It's a symptom of the sin in this world.

I have done a little research on it, and it is said that a human male baby and a human female baby are pretty much the same for the first 3 days of their exposure to the outside world. But around the 3rd day, a baby boy's brain is flooded with testosterone severing the neuro-membrains that make boys and girls similar.

Some boys make a bit less testosterone, and end up staying more connected, in ways that other boys are severed.

Growing up in a male dominated environment, with boys that have high testostorone, and are therefore very rough and rambunctious. The boy that is more like a girl than any other boys, starts to feel queer (different)...

Growing up they can choose to be accepted by the gay community, or they can try hard to fit into a hetro-community that is unlike them. Or they can be loners.

I have met some very feminine hetro men.

So homosexualtiy is a genetic condition. But I don't think it is as simple as "oh, he was born gay".. I think even though the hormones, and brain activity spark the interest, the person is ultimately the one who chooses one way or the other.
bzcutah,

How do you figure that works?

Like I am hetero. I don't recall waking one day in my teens and asking, "Will I choose to find male or female bodies sexually arousing?" Did you? I just found females very exciting. So I figure that homosexuals more than likely used the same process.

So how come one path is natural and moral, and the other is unnatural and evil or abnormal and faulty?

Do you figure I missed something?

BTW, the last time I read, post-mortem brain dissections found that certain brain centres were structured differently in homosexuals to heterosexuals, and homosexuals bodies respond differently to certain hormonal cues. That suggests to me that the difference runs a little deeper than a "lifestyle choice", whetever the F that means!

Daryl

[silverfox]

So homosexualtiy is a genetic condition. But I don't think it is as simple as "oh, he was born gay".. I think even though the hormones, and brain activity spark the interest, the person is ultimately the one who chooses one way or the other.

I have to disagree. I have a nephew who is gay and have several friends who are gay. I have witnessed the emotional torture they have had to go through. I've seen most of them attempt suicide. I've seen some of them FORCE themselves into hetero relationships, even marrying and having children to no avail. Only to end up hurting. And believe me, it was not a choice.

"Choosing" such a lifestyle would be asking for hell, IMO. I feel for the turmoil they must experience.....always thinking something is wrong with them. Living with that pain of never being what your parents or family expect or want. Or even what you expect from yourselves. I know many gays who don't WANT to be gay. It would be easier in this world to be hetero.

I believe if the dollars were spent on the research there would be very good reasons why one is gay. Sure there may be some who choose that lifestyle because they like it better just like heteros choose different lifestyles (swingers, etc) but the vast majority, IMHO, don't have a choice.

What about those who are born BOTH female and male? What are their choices? The choice is usually made for them at a young age by their doctors and parents and then ultimately later in life there are major issues. Ooooops, doc and mommy cut off the wrong one!!!! Now look what a mess we have.

I find it amazing and I feel that until there is proof either way we need to be very careful what kind of lifestyle we try to force on others especially in the name of a God who may or may not exist.

So much is based on biblical scripture. It's habit, it's tradition, it's comfortable for many but it doesn't mean it's accurate or right, IMO.

[bzcutah]

I have to disagree. I have a nephew who is gay and have several friends who are gay. I have witnessed the emotional torture they have had to go through. I've seen most of them attempt suicide. I've seen some of them FORCE themselves into hetero relationships, even marrying and having children to no avail. Only to end up hurting. And believe me, it was not a choice.

"Choosing" such a lifestyle would be asking for hell, IMO. I feel for the turmoil they must experience.....always thinking something is wrong with them. Living with that pain of never being what your parents or family expect or want. Or even what you expect from yourselves. I know many gays who don't WANT to be gay. It would be easier in this world to be hetero.

I believe if the dollars were spent on the research there would be very good reasons why one is gay. Sure there may be some who choose that lifestyle because they like it better just like heteros choose different lifestyles (swingers, etc) but the vast majority, IMHO, don't have a choice.

What about those who are born BOTH female and male? What are their choices? The choice is usually made for them at a young age by their doctors and parents and then ultimately later in life there are major issues. Ooooops, doc and mommy cut off the wrong one!!!! Now look what a mess we have.

I find it amazing and I feel that until there is proof either way we need to be very careful what kind of lifestyle we try to force on others especially in the name of a God who may or may not exist.

So much is based on biblical scripture. It's habit, it's tradition, it's comfortable for many but it doesn't mean it's accurate or right, IMO.


It is certainly just my opinion on the topic, but I did notate that there is research on it, that shows testosterone floods boys brains at around 3 days old, and thats what makes them more rough and rambunctious. I believe it is the scientist LeVay who did the research.

My opinion is that their brain works differently, and those boys who don't get the flood of testosterone like they should, or the girls who get it when they shouldn't act like the other sex mentally.

I don't know how that effects what turns them on. But I suspect that it is only the difference of severing nero-membrains that make a person act feminine or masculine.

Whether that effects their sexuality, well sure it does.

But the natural method of hormone creation in young humans, are testosterone for boys, estrogen for girls.
Anything else is an anomoly, a birth defect so to speak.

No one should be made to feel bad about their birth defect. IMO That would be just aweful.

Of course, I will get some bad feedback here. But that is my opinion.

I do have gay friends, and I don't hold their sexual orientation against them. Even as a Christian, it is not my place to judge ANYONE's sin. In fact, the whole issue is up to God in my humble opinion.

[mutleydog]

I have to disagree. I have a nephew who is gay and have several friends who are gay. I have witnessed the emotional torture they have had to go through. I've seen most of them attempt suicide. I've seen some of them FORCE themselves into hetero relationships, even marrying and having children to no avail. Only to end up hurting. And believe me, it was not a choice.

"Choosing" such a lifestyle would be asking for hell, IMO. I feel for the turmoil they must experience.....always thinking something is wrong with them. Living with that pain of never being what your parents or family expect or want. Or even what you expect from yourselves. I know many gays who don't WANT to be gay. It would be easier in this world to be hetero.

I believe if the dollars were spent on the research there would be very good reasons why one is gay. Sure there may be some who choose that lifestyle because they like it better just like heteros choose different lifestyles (swingers, etc) but the vast majority, IMHO, don't have a choice.

What about those who are born BOTH female and male? What are their choices? The choice is usually made for them at a young age by their doctors and parents and then ultimately later in life there are major issues. Ooooops, doc and mommy cut off the wrong one!!!! Now look what a mess we have.

I find it amazing and I feel that until there is proof either way we need to be very careful what kind of lifestyle we try to force on others especially in the name of a God who may or may not exist.

So much is based on biblical scripture. It's habit, it's tradition, it's comfortable for many but it doesn't mean it's accurate or right, IMO.

I would have to 110% agree with you Silverfox! Being gay myself is not a choice! Its the way I am and believe it is an inherent attribute. If it was a choice, do you think I would choose to be seen as "unequal" in some aspects of society, experience the fear of exclusion, losing friends and family, choose not to be able to celebrate my relationship as hetero people do, or choose in having to keep quiet about my relationship/who I am at work, when all I want to do is take my partner to work functions etc. Do you think I chose to agonise over the feelings that have manifested themselves since I can remember, trying to live the hetero life but knowing deep down it didn't feel right? Believe me, its not a choice!! People need to open their minds a little and see that for a majority of gay people the only choice they had was to learn to accept who they are in a society where I guess a minority do see it as a choice. Its not black and white, its not like trying to choose to do the right/wrong thing or not - its peoples lives and feelings - its just the way they are. I remember reading a book called 'Natural Exuberance' (I think) and it detailed homosexuality throughout the animal kingdom - very interesting. Thats when it totally sunk in that I was normal, but just had a different make-up!!

[miss taken]

I would have to 110% agree with you Silverfox! Being gay myself is not a choice! Its the way I am and believe it is an inherent attribute. If it was a choice, do you think I would choose to be seen as "unequal" in some aspects of society, experience the fear of exclusion, losing friends and family, choose not to be able to celebrate my relationship as hetero people do, or choose in having to keep quiet about my relationship/who I am at work, when all I want to do is take my partner to work functions etc. Do you think I chose to agonise over the feelings that have manifested themselves since I can remember, trying to live the hetero life but knowing deep down it didn't feel right? Believe me, its not a choice!! People need to open their minds a little and see that for a majority of gay people the only choice they had was to learn to accept who they are in a society where I guess a minority do see it as a choice. Its not black and white, its not like trying to choose to do the right/wrong thing or not - its peoples lives and feelings - its just the way they are. I remember reading a book called 'Natural Exuberance' (I think) and it detailed homosexuality throughout the animal kingdom - very interesting. Thats when it totally sunk in that I was normal, but just had a different make-up!!

Edited my post, cause I am no expert, and don't want to offend anyone..
Mary

[lsands]

First, I want to make it clear that I accept gay men and lesbian women as whole and perfect as I, a heterosexual woman, am. One of the great things for me about leaving the LDS church has been that I am free from the cognitive dissonance that raged inside of me over this issue. I can accept and respect completely my gay and lesbian friends without reservation, as I felt when I was a Mormon, and I do. I accept THEIR description of their feelings, thoughts, and experiences, rather than the interpretation of heterosexuals who cannot know or understand what it is like to be gay.

We could debate this issue for a long time, but I am concerned about the consequences. This is a highly emotional issue that is fraught with the possibility of hurt feelings and anger on all sides. What do you all think about agreeing to disagree on this issue, and endng it here?

[peter_mary]

First, I want to make it clear that I accept gay men and lesbian women as whole and perfect as I, a heterosexual woman, am. One of the great things for me about leaving the LDS church has been that I am free from the cognitive dissonance that raged inside of me over this issue. I can accept and respect completely my gay and lesbian friends without reservation, as I felt when I was a Mormon, and I do. I accept THEIR description of their feelings, thoughts, and experiences, rather than the interpretation of heterosexuals who cannot know or understand what it is like to be gay.

We could debate this issue for a long time, but I am concerned about the consequences. This is a highly emotional issue that is fraught with the possibility of hurt feelings and anger on all sides. What do you all think about agreeing to disagree on this issue, and endng it here?

Well said, Laraine! :)

Paul

[bzcutah]

Thank you, and yes well said.

Im not here to be against anyone, just sharing my opinion and research on the subject.

Paul pointed out the alienation of being homosexual.

In that regard I can relate. I am a 5th generation Mormon. Nearly every single family member that I know is LDS.

When I choose to leave the LDS church, I sacrificed family relationships, friends, business relationships, and financial blessings and rewards.

My grandfather who baptized me wrote me off completely, my other family distance themselves from me. I feel that if my youngest brother hadn't died, and brought my syblings and parents closer together, I could have possibly lost them too.

I made a choice which I knew would result in alienation. I feel that I made the right choice.

[bzcutah]

On a side note. Even though I am Christian, and I do believe homosexuality is a sin.

I am certainly not against gay marriages. I am completely baffled why anyone thinks that they need to control another persons private affairs.

I am not afraid to be "un-politically correct".. In the same rite, I am not afraid to stand up against the right wing nut jobs that think that they need to control every persons behavior down to the most private details.

I have gay friends, I have worked along side gay people during charitible events. I have the utmost respect for homosexuals, as I do with LDS..

Just because someone chooses to live a certain way, it's not my business.

I like to debate things, because I like to be educated. But your choices are just as private and personal for you as mine are for me.

So don't get me wrong. Im not here to bash anyone.

My opinion comes from research, conversations, debates, friends, and my gay cousin.

I have formed some opinions, but I am not using those opinions to attack anyone.

[Alicia]

I would have to 110% agree with you Silverfox! Being gay myself is not a choice! Its the way I am and believe it is an inherent attribute. If it was a choice, do you think I would choose to be seen as "unequal" in some aspects of society, experience the fear of exclusion, losing friends and family, choose not to be able to celebrate my relationship as hetero people do, or choose in having to keep quiet about my relationship/who I am at work, when all I want to do is take my partner to work functions etc. Do you think I chose to agonise over the feelings that have manifested themselves since I can remember, trying to live the hetero life but knowing deep down it didn't feel right? Believe me, its not a choice!! People need to open their minds a little and see that for a majority of gay people the only choice they had was to learn to accept who they are in a society where I guess a minority do see it as a choice. Its not black and white, its not like trying to choose to do the right/wrong thing or not - its peoples lives and feelings - its just the way they are. I remember reading a book called 'Natural Exuberance' (I think) and it detailed homosexuality throughout the animal kingdom - very interesting. Thats when it totally sunk in that I was normal, but just had a different make-up!!

Thank you for your post, it helped me to understand a little bit what life is like for you. As I read your post and the others I felt very relieved that I no longer need to screen my opinions through the church, if that makes since. I felt fake before because what I truly thought and what the church taught, on many different things, were different. Homosexuality is one of them; in fact it was the first thing that upset me about the church way back when I was a teenager.

Alicia

[Born Free]

I would have to 110% agree with you Silverfox! Being gay myself is not a choice! Its the way I am and believe it is an inherent attribute. If it was a choice, do you think I would choose to be seen as "unequal" in some aspects of society, experience the fear of exclusion, losing friends and family, choose not to be able to celebrate my relationship as hetero people do, or choose in having to keep quiet about my relationship/who I am at work, when all I want to do is take my partner to work functions etc. Do you think I chose to agonise over the feelings that have manifested themselves since I can remember, trying to live the hetero life but knowing deep down it didn't feel right? Believe me, its not a choice!! People need to open their minds a little and see that for a majority of gay people the only choice they had was to learn to accept who they are in a society where I guess a minority do see it as a choice. Its not black and white, its not like trying to choose to do the right/wrong thing or not - its peoples lives and feelings - its just the way they are. I remember reading a book called 'Natural Exuberance' (I think) and it detailed homosexuality throughout the animal kingdom - very interesting. Thats when it totally sunk in that I was normal, but just had a different make-up!!
mutleydog,

I have seen several good documentaries on homosexual behaviour in the animal world, but would like a well researched book on that matter in my library, because to my mind, that goes directly to the heart of whether homosexuality is part of the natural order of things. I would really appreciate it if you could confirm that book name, if it met my criteria.

Several years ago I was in a men's group with a gay man who was struggling with whether to come out or not, and I saw the toxic effect that mixed messages from some 'active Christians' had upon him. They said "I don't have a problem with your homosexuality" explicitly, but it became oh so apparent over time that they really believed that homosexuality was a sin and anyone involved was extremely suspect.

The dissonance between the Its OK, and You're a Sinner messages was very unhelpful, not just to the gay man, but to everyone within the reach of the discordant behaviour.

Some of you may have come across this email that did the rounds on the internet a few years back. I found it so good, that I kept a copy. It comes as a bit of a shock to some who anchor their disapproval of homosexuality in Old Testament teachings.

Subject: Why can't I own Canadians ?

Background:
Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned in any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet.


Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn
them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

Alan Cumming
Dept. ESK
European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company

I am also reminded that left-handedness was once regarded as sinful and children punished brutally for using their left hand as the dominant hand. We would now see anyone who held such a belief as extremely badly informed, and working from superstition or ignorance.

Daryl

[lsands]

I greatly appreciate the very respectful tone taken by ALL of the posters on this thread and on this board, about the discussion of homosexuality and other topics. I am familiar with the "letter to Dr. Laura", and I think it's great! Thanks to all.

[bzcutah]

mutleydog,

I have seen several good documentaries on homosexual behaviour in the animal world, but would like a well researched book on that matter in my library, because to my mind, that goes directly to the heart of whether homosexuality is part of the natural order of things. I would really appreciate it if you could confirm that book name, if it met my criteria.

Several years ago I was in a men's group with a gay man who was struggling with whether to come out or not, and I saw the toxic effect that mixed messages from some 'active Christians' had upon him. They said "I don't have a problem with your homosexuality" explicitly, but it became oh so apparent over time that they really believed that homosexuality was a sin and anyone involved was extremely suspect.

The dissonance between the Its OK, and You're a Sinner messages was very unhelpful, not just to the gay man, but to everyone within the reach of the discordant behaviour.

Some of you may have come across this email that did the rounds on the internet a few years back. I found it so good, that I kept a copy. It comes as a bit of a shock to some who anchor their disapproval of homosexuality in Old Testament teachings.


Daryl


I think that there is a difference between an orthodox Jew, and a born again Christian.

The totality of it, is that Christ gave a new covenant and a new priesthood.

While a man is still to cleave to his wife. (http://bible.cc/mark/10-7.htm)

Many of the old laws were unprofitable, and Jesus thus fulfilled them.

Hebrews chapter 7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%207:12-20;&version=31;) goes into great detail.

Now as I don't agree with say a Hare Krishna that animals are reincarnated ancestors, I do respect their beliefs, and I won't eat meat around them, as not to offend them. But I do eat meat, and I do enjoy it.

I hope that you can respect my religious beliefs, and I do honestly respect you.

[Born Free]

I think that there is a difference between an orthodox Jew, and a born again Christian.

The totality of it, is that Christ gave a new covenant and a new priesthood.

While a man is still to cleave to his wife. (http://bible.cc/mark/10-7.htm)

Many of the old laws were unprofitable, and Jesus thus fulfilled them.

Hebrews chapter 7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%207:12-20;&version=31;) goes into great detail.

Now as I don't agree with say a Hare Krishna that animals are reincarnated ancestors, I do respect their beliefs, and I won't eat meat around them, as not to offend them. But I do eat meat, and I do enjoy it.

I hope that you can respect my religious beliefs, and I do honestly respect you.
bzcutah,
I can respect your different take on this, and am particularly appreciative that you do not feel you have the right to foist you beliefs upon others (as in use teh law to coerse others). That is the point I start to have problems.

I would also like to express my appreciation that we, as a group, have been able to canvas takes upon such a frequently loaded issue, and do so with respect, and courtesy. It is a very encouraging sign of the maturity of the people involved.

Daryl

[mutleydog]

mutleydog,

I have seen several good documentaries on homosexual behaviour in the animal world, but would like a well researched book on that matter in my library, because to my mind, that goes directly to the heart of whether homosexuality is part of the natural order of things. I would really appreciate it if you could confirm that book name, if it met my criteria.
Daryl

Daryl,

I will have a look to see what the book is called and let you know. I found it very interesting in deed!! ;)

[mutleydog]

Thank you for your post, it helped me to understand a little bit what life is like for you. As I read your post and the others I felt very relieved that I no longer need to screen my opinions through the church, if that makes since. I felt fake before because what I truly thought and what the church taught, on many different things, were different. Homosexuality is one of them; in fact it was the first thing that upset me about the church way back when I was a teenager.

Alicia

Thank you Alicia. I really appreciate your comments. When I first left the church it was important to me that some friends knew why I left. I wrote letters to a couple of them explaining the turmoil I had been under etc. and all of them were very supportive and felt that I had made the right decision. I am still in contact with them now and not one of them has tried to re-activate me. When my Mum first found out she was very supportive, albiet a little shocked, I too wrote her a letter explaining the same sort of things, including excerpts from my journal (she is not lds) - it totally upset her, but in a positive way in the fact she was sorry she didn't realise how hard it had been for me over the years. I think she felt guilty too because she had openly been negative about homosexuality. Since my coming out she has researched etc. and her understanding has grown about the issues that surround being gay. All her close friends know about me and they have been cool too. As far as I know my extended family do not know, but my Mum has kept my letter just in case they ask questions etc. I gave her permission to let them read it if need be if nothing else to help them realise its not the smoothest path to travel and generally people wouldn't choose it!

[mutleydog]

Daryl,

I will have a look to see what the book is called and let you know. I found it very interesting in deed!! ;)

And the book is......

Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity (Stonewall Inn Editions (Paperback))
Bruce Bagemihl

Amazon have it stock, along with many more titles!!

[Born Free]

And the book is......

Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity (Stonewall Inn Editions (Paperback))
Bruce Bagemihl

Amazon have it stock, along with many more titles!!

You are a darling! Now to see if I can find it in Oz. Gets expensive in freight bringing them in from Amazon.

Update: Not published here, so I will have to import it. Our gays must be too busy at the Sydney Mardi Gra to read!

[mutleydog]

You are a darling! Now to see if I can find it in Oz. Gets expensive in freight bringing them in from Amazon.

Update: Not published here, so I will have to import it. Our gays must be too busy at the Sydney Mardi Gra to read!

No worries Daryl!! Hope you find it worthwhile! :)

[bzcutah]

I have been posed a question by a friend of mine.


Does anyone here suppose that there are a high ratio of animals who seek soley homsexual relationships with other animals of the same sex? Or is homosexual behavior with animals random?

I am still under the impression that animals only randomly have seemingly homosexual experiences, because they are asserting dominance over another animal.

But I could be wrong. So if anyone knows of any study that animals DO seek exclusively homosexual relationships. I would like to read it.

Pissing contests, or homosexuality?

[bzcutah]

This link: http://www.truth-and-justice.info/gay-animals.html

Has some discussion on the topic of "gay animals" that I found made some great points..

When a domestic dog (is the only dog in the house), mates with a shoe, is it becuase he loves the shoe? Or is it because he is asserting his sexual energy upon the shoe?

Or when a pack of wolves has more males than females. When a male wolf romps another male wolf, is it the same thing as the domestic dog and the shoe? Or is there a sole mate thing going on?

Interesting questions. I thought that some people may enjoy it.

[silverfox]

I found this link interesting - How can you be both sexes with focus on bisexuality.

http://hermaphrodite.arriba.net/howcanyoubebothsexes.htm

[bzcutah]

I think with hermorphadites, there is a prominance with one or the other sexual organ. One works, one doesn.

Like a person may have a vigina and a penis. But if the penis is the working organ, the ovaries aren't there, or don't work.


Im no biologist though..

[miss taken]

I think with hermorphadites, there is a prominance with one or the other sexual organ. One works, one doesn.

Like a person may have a vigina and a penis. But if the penis is the working organ, the ovaries aren't there, or don't work.


Im no biologist though..

Wow, it is great to see this thread still going. I was kind of scared to discuss anything for fear of offending anyone. I appreciate this thread and comments from gay members because it helps me understand their unique position in the church and out of it. And I think we all share a commonality, in that we are all seeking to be truely? authentic people.

In the UK there is a lot of acceptance of 'gayness' and hopefully we all have a deeper understanding of what makes people the way they are.

At a common sense level, I would assume that the reasons for homosexuality are both environmental and genetic. I was reading Darin's posts and so felt for his position, and the awful, awful advice he was given in the church. If only things were ever so black and white.

Thanks everyone for keeping this thread going in such a respectful way.
Mary

[Born Free]

I have been posed a question by a friend of mine.


Does anyone here suppose that there are a high ratio of animals who seek soley homsexual relationships with other animals of the same sex? Or is homosexual behavior with animals random?

I am still under the impression that animals only randomly have seemingly homosexual experiences, because they are asserting dominance over another animal.

But I could be wrong. So if anyone knows of any study that animals DO seek exclusively homosexual relationships. I would like to read it.

Pissing contests, or homosexuality?

From what I have read, sexuality, mating, and bonding patterns are extremely varied, covering the full spectrum.

I went and read the reviews of that book yesterday on Amazon, and it brought back memories of aspects of the documenary, which certainly did include life long same-sex partnering.

One I recall that was funny and sad (IMO) story was a couple of male penguins who could not produce an egg (obviously), but one was carrying around this egg sized rock on his feet keeping it off the ice just as if it were an egg.

The picture that emerges is of a diverse range of behaviours, as complex and varied as life itself.

Daryl

[Born Free]

This link: http://www.truth-and-justice.info/gay-animals.html

Has some discussion on the topic of "gay animals" that I found made some great points..

When a domestic dog (is the only dog in the house), mates with a shoe, is it becuase he loves the shoe? Or is it because he is asserting his sexual energy upon the shoe?

Or when a pack of wolves has more males than females. When a male wolf romps another male wolf, is it the same thing as the domestic dog and the shoe? Or is there a sole mate thing going on?

Interesting questions. I thought that some people may enjoy it.

bzcutah,
I noticed you avoided stating whose the shoe is!!! :)

There is clearly a smell about the shoe that is doing the trick for the dog (I have read stories of confused pet owners, whose cat was having sex (mounting anyway) with their very confused and embarassed minature breed dog).

If I were the owner of the feet that normally reside in said shoes, I would be very careful about falling asleep on the couch in front of the TV, with a leg/foot combination hanging over the edge!

Daryl

PS: On second thoughts, get the Priesthood of God over to cast the evil spirits out of the dog - Evil F#cker! :eek:

[bzcutah]

Cross species mating?

I still think it's a dominance thing.


I love that story about the penguins though, with the rock as an egg. That was cute.
I wonder if there is some kind of article that I could read about it on the net?

[silverfox]

I fostered dogs for a few years. (loved it!)

I was always amazed how no matter how well trained they were they could and would always "slip" and chew up our shoes. It was always our shoes!!!! In desparation (if shoes aren't available) it could be something else.

In researching this and speaking with several vets and animal trainers most agreed this is because when they miss their human owners (doesn't matter if the owner is in the next room or away) they go straight for something that has their owner's heaviest scent. Taadaaa - shoes!

So I learned to take their toys and chew bones and rub them with my hands before leaving them alone. (they still liked the shoes better, though)

Okay, so this has nothing to do with homosexuality but I just can't go there with dogs. I can't compare their brain to a human brain but I do understand their attraction to shoes.

(I heart doggies)

[Born Free]

This link: http://www.truth-and-justice.info/gay-animals.html

Has some discussion on the topic of "gay animals" that I found made some great points..

When a domestic dog (is the only dog in the house), mates with a shoe, is it becuase he loves the shoe? Or is it because he is asserting his sexual energy upon the shoe?

Or when a pack of wolves has more males than females. When a male wolf romps another male wolf, is it the same thing as the domestic dog and the shoe? Or is there a sole mate thing going on?

Interesting questions. I thought that some people may enjoy it.

There is a heirarchy of dominance statements in the animal world.

Dogs humping human shoes ranks slightly above teenage Mormon male priesthood holders thinking they are superiour to Mormon women of any age. Got to be completely unabiguous as to who is top of the heap! :cool:

(Sorry, could not restrain myself!)

Now, steeeeeeady pig! (As my wife would say to me) Get back on topic!

[Born Free]

Cross species mating?

I still think it's a dominance thing.


I love that story about the penguins though, with the rock as an egg. That was cute.
I wonder if there is some kind of article that I could read about it on the net?

A vets explanation was that one animals hormone system was out of whack producing the overly active sexual drive in the other.

The book mentioned above is reviewed on Amazon at:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/031225377X/qid=1110508159/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-3969651-3442463

[bzcutah]

Thanks! Those reviews are very divided on the prospective though.

The one comment said "this book should have been titled animal sexuality, not homosexuality".

Others said the book did not reveal any convining evidence of homosexual partnerships in the homosexual activity.

Others seemed convinced that it proved homosexuality in the animal kingdom hands down.

800 pages is a lot of information. But it looks like a worthy read.

Again, thanks!

[silverfox]

I have arthritis in many of my joints. No one else in my family has it. In spite of billions of dollars of research no one knows what causes it but yet it exists. There is no cure.

My daughter was recently diagnosed with dyslexia. No one else in our families has it. In spite of a lot of research no one knows what causes it and why some get it and some don't but yet it exists. There is no cure.

My son is schizophrenic. In spite of much research, no one knows what causes it and why some people are afflicted with this and others are not but yet it exists. There is no cure.

Cancer - same thing. Some people get it and some don't regardless of lifestyle. In spite of billions of dollars of research no one knows why. And there is no cure.

My ex's nephew is gay. It was evident he was gay from the time he was very young. I watched him grow up. It was undeniable and no one was shocked when as a teenager he became open about it. No one else in either families is gay. There hasn't been much research so no one knows what causes it but yet it exists.

[bzcutah]

I have arthritis in many of my joints. No one else in my family has it. In spite of billions of dollars of research no one knows what causes it but yet it exists. There is no cure.

My daughter was recently diagnosed with dyslexia. No one else in our families has it. In spite of a lot of research no one knows what causes it and why some get it and some don't but yet it exists. There is no cure.

My son is schizophrenic. In spite of much research, no one knows what causes it and why some people are afflicted with this and others are not but yet it exists. There is no cure.

Cancer - same thing. Some people get it and some don't regardless of lifestyle. In spite of billions of dollars of research no one knows why. And there is no cure.

My ex's nephew is gay. It was evident he was gay from the time he was very young. I watched him grow up. It was undeniable and no one was shocked when as a teenager he became open about it. No one else in either families is gay. There hasn't been much research so no one knows what causes it but yet it exists.

Actually, there is cures for cancer. Not well known cures, but my wife worked in an herb store for a long time, and worked under a master botanist. It is know that an herb from South America has cured cancer.


But anyway, Im just really curious about homosexuality in animals. I realize the debate exist about homosexuality in humans. I have my opinion on that.

But it was only recently that I heard so much about how animals are homosexual.

I simply don't see animals going around looking for a gay partner. Regardless of the random acts of romping.

[silverfox]

I simply don't see animals going around looking for a gay partner. Regardless of the random acts of romping.

Maybe dogs just have shoe fetishes like some humans do. heh heh :D I actually have no opinion either way regarding homosexuality in animals.

[dogzilla]

[QUOTE=silverfox
(I heart doggies)[/QUOTE]

Well, we're certainly happy to hear that over here at Chez Dogzilla! :D

(And you're right about the shoes. Some dogs go for remote controls because we hold the remotes and get our hand scent on them. My dog just pees on my stuff. :rolleyes: )

[bzcutah]

We adopted a german shorthair pointer puppy when we first got married. It was the cutest dog I had ever seen. A few little girls were just giving them away at Walmart because their father thought that the mother bread with a boxer while she was breeding with a another pointer.

So we moved around a lot before we settled down. Two moves in Utah, and one in Colorado.
It was really hard to find rentals with a full sized dog.

When we lived at my fathers house, we watched his English pointer while he was away. Our dog and his dog mated, and it was a week later that we moved to Colorado.

Our baby had 7 puppies.

Needless to say, everything in our house got ate over the course of a year, even though we gave away 6 of the puppies through an adoption agency "DreamPower" (they are awesome BTW).

Our youngest Tosh and the mother Shooby, had a habit of eating our fish tank supplies. They craved fish food.

But they also ate my Dr. Martin dress shoes, and ever other pair of shoes that I owned, the couch, the carpet, ect..

Eventually we got them a load of toys, and they loved the kong chew toy. As long as we gave them their kong, and a pig ear before we left, they would be fine. Most of the time.

When we moved back to Utah, finding a rental with two dogs was nearly impossible. So we found them a good home through the adoption service, where they could both be together, and have a nice home in a rich neighborhood.

They were like my children. I miss them a ton.

[dogzilla]

When my dog starts licking crumbs off the carpet (from when I've been eating in front of the TV again) I tell her, "Tip, if you keep licking that rug, you're gonna be a lesbian!"





:p
Ba-dum-bump. I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitress.

[peter_mary]

When my dog starts licking crumbs off the carpet (from when I've been eating in front of the TV again) I tell her, "Tip, if you keep licking that rug, you're gonna be a lesbian!"





:p
Ba-dum-bump. I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitress.


Dammit, does anyone have any glass cleaner? I've just made a mess on my monitor... :D

Paul

[bzcutah]

I've been reminissing. I remember that they ate my fax machine, and a bunch of my printing supplies too..

Maybe they are in love with office equipment. Because those items didn't have much of my smell on it.

:rolleyes:

Man! As much as I miss those dogs. Im kind of glad that they have a nice home with a yard now. Something that we didn't have for them....

If we'd had them any longer, we would be living in a cardboard box. :eek:

They ate everything!

Here is a video of them:
http://www.behindzioncurtain.com/images/shoobyvideo.avi

http://www.behindzioncurtain.com/images/shooby.jpg

[silverfox]

I've been reminissing. I remember that they ate my fax machine, and a bunch of my printing supplies too..

Maybe they are in love with office equipment. Because those items didn't have much of my smell on it.

:rolleyes:

Man! As much as I miss those dogs. Im kind of glad that they have a nice home with a yard now. Something that we didn't have for them....

If we'd had them any longer, we would be living in a cardboard box. :eek:

They ate everything!

Here is a video of them:
http://www.behindzioncurtain.com/images/shoobyvideo.avi



So sweeeeet! You made the right decision as you know to find them homes. It's tough, though. Every foster I got I wanted to keep. I invested a lot of emotion into them. Usually when they came to me they were in deep depression, not eating, skin and bones, near death. It was very rewarding watching them come alive but that made it very difficult to part with them. sniff sniff

My first foster a Great Pyreneese was given to the shelter by her owners when they moved. She went into deep depression and didn't eat. I got her and after a couple months she gained 20 lb and just kept gaining after that. She is now a therapy dog for a boy's group home in Oregon and doing wonderfully. But I still miss her.

http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/9ce21c96/db1d/__tn_/a45d.jpg?phKcvMCBB6Z15G3d

Thanks for sharing, B.

[bzcutah]

That is so cool that you fostered dogs! We did that a few times. It was very rewarding.
Often we would find dogs that were wondering around far away from civilization on a highway near our home.

We would bring them home, and shelter them, while we hung up flyers, called the local authorities, and the dog adoption agency that we had friends at.

If no one claimed them in 2 weeks, we would start the dog adoption process. It was this way for 2 of our fosters, and both were adopted. We also fostered a chocolate lab that was awesome, but he had bad arthritis. He was a stray also, and Dreampower was fostering him though us.

There is so much need for fosters. With what little we did, it didn't even put a dent in the need for needed homes.

We volunteered at the animal shelter a few times. In Colorado Springs, it was a very nice setup, and the dogs were treated well. They had regular bathroom breaks, and a little yard to play in and a field to get walked in.

BTW- I clicked on the link in your last reply, and it didn't open for me.