Disfellowshipped vs Excommunication

[noodle]

I have been reading Grant Palmer's book, "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins." BTW, it is really interesting. Anyway, I know that he was disfellowshipped, and it dawned on me that I don't know what is involved in disfellowshipping someone. I know that getting ex'd is being stripped of everything, and needing to be rebaptized if desiring membership again. What goes on when someone is disfellowshipped?

[silverfox]

I have been reading Grant Palmer's book, "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins." BTW, it is really interesting. Anyway, I know that he was disfellowshipped, and it dawned on me that I don't know what is involved in disfellowshipping someone. I know that getting ex'd is being stripped of everything, and needing to be rebaptized if desiring membership again. What goes on when someone is disfellowshipped?

Never thought of the detail involved in the differences so it will be interesting to read the feedback. I always thought being disfellowshipped was very much like being ex'd except it was temporary and you could become in full good standing more easily without the whole rebaptism thing. No sacrament, saying prayers in meetings, etc. But you get to keep your garmies. (shucks)

[peter_mary]

I have been reading Grant Palmer's book, "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins." BTW, it is really interesting. Anyway, I know that he was disfellowshipped, and it dawned on me that I don't know what is involved in disfellowshipping someone. I know that getting ex'd is being stripped of everything, and needing to be rebaptized if desiring membership again. What goes on when someone is disfellowshipped?

I'm right smack in the middle of Grant Palmer's book, too! I am VERY much enjoying it, by the way.

My understanding regarding the difference between disfellowship and excommunicate is essentially retaining your membership. In a disfellowshipment, you lose all the privleges ( :Puking ) of membership, i.e. the ability to hold callings, perform ordinances, attend the temple, pay your tithing, you know, all the things you really miss :) . But you remain a member, and reinstatement of all those blessings is simply an act of paperwork.

When you are excommunicated, you are cut off. You not only lose the privleges (there he goes, using that word again...what the hell does he mean?), but you lose your actual membership. Reinstatement requires "rejoining" by baptism, and a formal reinstatement of priesthood or other blessings.

In the one, they take your membership and put it in a box for you for safe keeping. In the other, they take that box, pack it with rocks, and throw it in the river.

Make sense?

Nah, I didn't think so! :)

Paul

P.S. Now what I really want to know is why Palmer didn't beg for excommuication on bended knee, rather than fight for difellowshipment? It is beyond me how he could do the research he did, and come to the conclusions he does, and still retain a shred of hope for the truthfulness of the restored gospel. Boggles my mind (what little there is left that remains unboggled!) :Crazy:

[tjohnson]

P.S. Now what I really want to know is why Palmer didn't beg for excommuication on bended knee, rather than fight for difellowshipment? It is beyond me how he could do the research he did, and come to the conclusions he does, and still retain a shred of hope for the truthfulness of the restored gospel. Boggles my mind (what little there is left that remains unboggled!) :Crazy:

I don't understand this either. The entire book is basically "here's where the church is wrong or misleading it's members", until the last chapter. Then he says "I love my heritage in the LDS church and hope it can continue". There must be more to his story than he put in the book. :D

Travis

[Born Free]

I don't understand this either. The entire book is basically "here's where the church is wrong or misleading it's members", until the last chapter. Then he says "I love my heritage in the LDS church and hope it can continue". There must be more to his story than he put in the book. :D

Travis

Sounds like a clear example of someone who has had an abusive experience, but has not grasped the full extent of the abuse, and "just wants to be loved" by their abuser.

It suggests strongly he still does not grasp what happened, and that he will only ever be abused if he returns.

This reinforces my suspicion that most people leaving Moism need some form of therapy.

Daryl

[free thinker]

I really believe his goal is to help the church come to a more Christ centered position. After listening to his radio interview in December, right before his church court, I gleaned that he is a committed Christian, and has a desire for the GA'S to begin a more open, and liberal approach to the church's history. In this, I would categorize him with D. Michael Quinn. Perhaps I am a bit naive, but I think these men are quite aware of what they are doing. They are more heretic than apostate!!

IMHO


Free Thinker

[tjohnson]

I really believe his goal is to help the church come to a more Christ centered position. After listening to his radio interview in December, right before his church court, I gleaned that he is a committed Christian, and has a desire for the GA'S to begin a more open, and liberal approach to the church's history. In this, I would categorize him with D. Michael Quinn. Perhaps I am a bit naive, but I think these men are quite aware of what they are doing. They are more heretic than apostate!!

This confuses me. Why would you want to "help" an organization that has lied and been dishonest about all of it's dealings since the inception? Maybe I'm still in the "angry, rebellious" stages, but it makes no sense to me. :mad:

I guess I compare it to a company like Enron. Lie, Lie, Lie, hide, hide, hide... the difference is the church is not accountable to anyone. :Puking

[silverfox]

This confuses me. Why would you want to "help" an organization that has lied and been dishonest about all of it's dealings since the inception? Maybe I'm still in the "angry, rebellious" stages, but it makes no sense to me. :mad:

I guess I compare it to a company like Enron. Lie, Lie, Lie, hide, hide, hide... the difference is the church is not accountable to anyone. :Puking

I found the whole Palmer Grant thing confusing. In a way I feel that maybe he was just trying to hold onto life as he knows it??? He needs and thrives on the social aspect. The family aspect. Maybe he is under just as much stress and resistance as many of us are with TBM families and friends. He doesn't want to lose what connects him to them.

I have no idea.

It also makes me sad that he is complying with church leaders and not uttering a word regarding anything.

Oh, well. As long as he's happy. The important thing is he has provided a lot of good info to many.

[noodle]

P.S. Now what I really want to know is why Palmer didn't beg for excommuication on bended knee, rather than fight for difellowshipment? It is beyond me how he could do the research he did, and come to the conclusions he does, and still retain a shred of hope for the truthfulness of the restored gospel. Boggles my mind (what little there is left that remains unboggled!) :Crazy:
I have also entertained the idea that the response by Palmer (as well as Quinn's and others in the same situation) might be contrived. Perhaps they hold out hope that these little baby steps can indeed change the church for the better?? I dunno.

Paul, I'm so glad that you got that puke smiley face!

mamajama

[wileycoyote]

I haven't read the book,but I saw the article on it in the newspaper and the thought popped into my head (what if it isn't true?) I had never considered for a moment before then that it may not be. I did a search on google for Joseph Smith looking for the book and the rest was history. It's been 2 1/2 months now and the joy in my heart is overwhelming. My wife thinks it's the devil. Any way, keep up the good work you guys. There are 11 milion more people out there just like I was. Thanks

[free thinker]

In response to the last few comments, I want to make sure that I am not being perceived as supporting Grant Palmer, Todd Compton , or any other author who stays in the church after uncovering, and publishing, information that exposes it as an obvious fraud. I do not understand it either. :o

Grant Palmer's book was all I needed to walk away. If for no other reason, than the fact that current leaders are knowingly perpetuating a lie. I don't like being lied to!! :mad:

In contrast, I just finished " Keystone of Mormonism" by Arza Evans . He researched his book for years, and hesitated to publish it for some time. It is fabulous!!
Unlike Palmer and Compton, he does not seek any sanction from the church. He strongly opposes perpetuating the myth, and states at the end of his book, that he believes the church has caused great pain and suffering in the past, and continues to today. I agree with this assessment.



Free Thinker

[peter_mary]

I haven't read the book,but I saw the article on it in the newspaper and the thought popped into my head (what if it isn't true?) I had never considered for a moment before then that it may not be. I did a search on google for Joseph Smith looking for the book and the rest was history. It's been 2 1/2 months now and the joy in my heart is overwhelming. My wife thinks it's the devil. Any way, keep up the good work you guys. There are 11 milion more people out there just like I was. Thanks

wileycoyote,

(BTW, surely you can find an excellent avatar for your name? :D )

I'm nearly done with Palmer's book, and it will be one of the most highly recommended books on my list. I don't pretend to understand the complex reasons he must have for desiring to stay affiliated, but hell, even I haven't removed my name from the Church roles yet, and my Bishop calls me an apostate! So we all have our reasons.

But that aside, Palmer gathers a tremendous amount of scholarly research, much of it done by Mormon scholars, and brings it all together in a very easy to read, easy to digest fashion, that lays it all out there for you to evaluate. I keep thinking as I'm reading this that if I deleted all the names associated with the stories and anecdotes that he retells, and hand those stories to my TBM friends, they would all laugh at the ridiculousness and gullibility of the people involved. And then how much fun it would be to get to say, "Oh, that was Hyrum Smith," or Martin Harris, or David Whitmer, or Brigham Young, or Oliver Cowdery, or Emma Smith...and on and on and on.

Since you haven't read it, and where you are so new on this journey, I would strongly encourage you to read it. In fact, and I'm SO not kidding, if you Private Message me with your name and address, I'll have Amazon send one right to your doorstep. It would be an absolute pleasure to be able to do that for you, if you would accept!

Paul

[wileycoyote]

Paul
Thanks for the offer, but I think I know where a book is that I can borrow. My wife won't let me come to any of your meetings without freaking out, so if stuff starts coming in the mail it may cause problems.
Don't worry. I'm not going back. In fact I may need some advice on keeping my mouth shut. It's starting to get harder and harder.
You've answered some of my questions before and I appreciate your time and knowledge. This website has been a great help to me. Thanks again, Clint

[peter_mary]

Paul
Thanks for the offer, but I think I know where a book is that I can borrow. My wife won't let me come to any of your meetings without freaking out, so if stuff starts coming in the mail it may cause problems.
Clint

Hey, no problem, mi amigo! No need to cause hate and discontent in your household. But if you ever need a book delivered in a plain brown wrapper, just let me know! :D

Paul

[gracie]

I haven't read the book,but I saw the article on it in the newspaper and the thought popped into my head (what if it isn't true?) I had never considered for a moment before then that it may not be. I did a search on google for Joseph Smith looking for the book and the rest was history. It's been 2 1/2 months now and the joy in my heart is overwhelming. My wife thinks it's the devil. Any way, keep up the good work you guys. There are 11 milion more people out there just like I was. Thanks

Welcome! A google search on "mormon" and "abuse". was what did it for me. Never occured to me that it wasn't true, just some minor flaws ("blips" to GBH) in the perfect church. :Puking Wow...I love google and the internet! Life is much better now, despite all the pain of leaving my so-called true belief system.
Gracie
PS, less that 11 million actually, since there alot of us around!!!

[twine]

Hey, no problem, mi amigo! No need to cause hate and discontent in your household. But if you ever need a book delivered in a plain brown wrapper, just let me know! :D

Paul

Only the National Geo is still delivered in plain brown wrappers... the good stuff comes in black plastic now... at least so I hear.

[frauline]

Since you haven't read it, and where you are so new on this journey, I would strongly encourage you to read it. In fact, and I'm SO not kidding, if you Private Message me with your name and address, I'll have Amazon send one right to your doorstep. It would be an absolute pleasure to be able to do that for you, if you would accept!

Paul


I would love to buy it for all of my TBM friends for Christmas!

[runfromsafety]

I would love to buy it for all of my TBM friends for Christmas!
Grant Palmers book is the tip of the iceberg, but an excellent summary of some (but far from all) of the foundational issues facing the Church. Part of my exodus involved buying, reading and re-reading just about everything signature books (www.signaturebooks.com) has published of a doctrinal or historical nature. Call me obsessed :), but that's been my approach! In those you will find a lot of substance - meticulously researched and documented.... regardless of the theraputic value to me, it is such a rich and interesting history.

IMHO, the podcast on mormonstories.org of Grant Palmers interview would be a great intro to give a TBM who had an inkling of enquiry (if they havent got at least that, then even Palmers stuff is a waste of time). Even better than the book itself to start with. As he speaks/presents the way members expect someone to present and has the church credentials to go with it, he might just get to a few more people. My home teachers still visit me every month (I am sure with fear and trepidation every time they venture into babylon!) and I have burned the 4 podcasts to CD's to give to them when the time is right. I will be interested in the response, although as always with TBM's I am far from optimistic.... the conditioning runs so, so deep.