Relationships: Then vs Now

[peter_mary]

I hope this starts a serious conversation, as it is something I've been trying really hard to get my arms around for the past several years. I would LOVE to know what all of your thoughts and experiences are on this.

When I was "in," I was always in the thick of the Ward...serving in leadership capacities, teaching, speaking at ward functions, firesides, meetings, everything. We went to every activity, never missed a meeting unless we were out of town, took our kids to their activities, etc. We felt connected to the people in our ward because we served side-by-side with them all the time, shared pot-luck meals several times a year, went on missionary splits with them, and felt like we had good friends in the Ward.

Then I asked to be released from the Bishopric and our Church attendance took a marked spiral until it virtually disappeared (that's a whole other story). Come to find out, we didn't really have very good friends, since we never really heard from them ever again. If we accidentally run into them at the grocery store, they act as if they've seen a ghost, and more often than not they duck down an aisle or suddenly remember they left their purse in the car.

On the other hand, we noticed a strange development. First, we noticed that our family relationships (between my wife and myself, and between both of us and our four children) were markedly improved! But equally interesting was the friendships that we developed outside our family, including some that have become more significant than those we have with members of our families of origin. In hindsight, we see that for the first time in our lives we actually HAVE friends!

We remember telling people that "We really only need each other, because work and church and family are just so demanding that there just isn't time for anything else." But I'm beginning to believe it was much more than that.

I'm beginning to believe that being active in the church creates a circumstance that is exclusive of first-order quality relationships with anyone else. I believe that when you are a TBM, your only first-order relationship is with the Church (we think it's with God, but my personal experience is that God didn't have much to say to me...but the Church had a LOT to say). All other relationships, including those with my wife and children were triangulated through the Church first, and were therefore in fact second-order relationships.

Those of you who are gone but who are married to someone who is still in probably know exactly what I'm talking about...you want to have a first order relationship with them, and they are still trying to relate to you by virtue of the Church. And it doesn't work very well, confusing you both.

So without belaboring it, I want to close this by asking simply if others have experienced A) the phenomenon of triangulating every relationship with the Church, and B) if you find that you now have more quality relationships on the outside than you ever did on the inside...or not? What has been your experience?

Paul

[silverfox]

I hope this starts a serious conversation, as it is something I've been trying really hard to get my arms around for the past several years. I would LOVE to know what all of your thoughts and experiences are on this.

When I was "in," I was always in the thick of the Ward...serving in leadership capacities, teaching, speaking at ward functions, firesides, meetings, everything. We went to every activity, never missed a meeting unless we were out of town, took our kids to their activities, etc. We felt connected to the people in our ward because we served side-by-side with them all the time, shared pot-luck meals several times a year, went on missionary splits with them, and felt like we had good friends in the Ward.

Then I asked to be released from the Bishopric and our Church attendance took a marked spiral until it virtually disappeared (that's a whole other story). Come to find out, we didn't really have very good friends, since we never really heard from them ever again. If we accidentally run into them at the grocery store, they act as if they've seen a ghost, and more often than not they duck down an aisle or suddenly remember they left their purse in the car.

On the other hand, we noticed a strange development. First, we noticed that our family relationships (between my wife and myself, and between both of us and our four children) were markedly improved! But equally interesting was the friendships that we developed outside our family, including some that have become more significant than those we have with members of our families of origin. In hindsight, we see that for the first time in our lives we actually HAVE friends!

We remember telling people that "We really only need each other, because work and church and family are just so demanding that there just isn't time for anything else." But I'm beginning to believe it was much more than that.

I'm beginning to believe that being active in the church creates a circumstance that is exclusive of first-order quality relationships with anyone else. I believe that when you are a TBM, your only first-order relationship is with the Church (we think it's with God, but my personal experience is that God didn't have much to say to me...but the Church had a LOT to say). All other relationships, including those with my wife and children were triangulated through the Church first, and were therefore in fact second-order relationships.

Those of you who are gone but who are married to someone who is still in probably know exactly what I'm talking about...you want to have a first order relationship with them, and they are still trying to relate to you by virtue of the Church. And it doesn't work very well, confusing you both.

So without belaboring it, I want to close this by asking simply if others have experienced A) the phenomenon of triangulating every relationship with the Church, and B) if you find that you now have more quality relationships on the outside than you ever did on the inside...or not? What has been your experience?

Paul

Boy you are SO right on about this! With the church out of the equation our relationship with very TBM people including family members have plummeted. You would think we are murderers or something by the way we are treated. But our immediate family bond is stronger than EVER. It is unbelievable at times! I laugh because TBMs(true blue mormon) pity us thinking we are doomed, that we are suffering because we all know that if you don't live the gospel of Joe Smith then it is impossible to be happy. Contrary! I love life more than I ever have! I appreciate so much more!

I think alot of this comes from knowing that I am CHOOSING what is and isn't important to ME. I am not living by the choices of a prophet, local church leaders, etc. In my 30+ years as a member I have never felt so fulfilled and free.

It's been two years since my apostacy. While active we were bombarded with Xmas goodies, etc. Last year we got a few. This year there has been nothing. I still pass out my goodies to everyone I know or knew.

It is quite the transition for some to try to develop new friendships but I have found it easier to embrace all people of all origins, religions, etc since my apostacy. It takes years to build TRUE friendships. But I don't feel the urgency to connect with people like I felt as a member feeling I had to connect with other members. As active members, I think we push ourselves to bond with other church members because in a sense it validates our "worthiness". Does that make sense?

I love your explanation. I am going to print it off.

[free thinker]

Paul

I just had to reply to yopur conversation about relationships with TBM folk. I am very new to this arena od Post-Mormon Life. I have left virtually all my freinds behind. It is just too much work to try to get them to understand where I am, and why I could never me a TBM again. I think the reason for the chasm between the two worlds is simple actually. Mormonism is a closed society. It has to be to be able to survive. The ideas and philosophy are so different from anything else in human groups. For example, you could never discuss with any group of active TBM'S the idea that Joseph Smith probably wrote the book of mormon. This, of course blows the whole boat out of the water. This means that all we are doing is actually a bit of a ruse. All the activity, the temple ceremony, the idea of angel moroni. EVERYTHING!!! Therefore the only way to go about the business of being mormon is to be closed to any idea other than joe was a prophet, etc,etc, etc . I makes them very uncomfortable to even think that the church might not be true. I know. I used to be one.

When I left the church after being a single, healthy active man for 30 years, and never meeting a lady that I felt was a fit for me, I immediatly met someone great. We talk often about mormonism, and she is flabergasted by the peculiarities of the faith.Itis all so simple. It is a cult, and like all other cults,it inflicts a certain amount of psychic harm on it's adherents, especially when they try to get out.

I am closer now to my non-mormon parents than I ever was as a member. Also I feel much more compassion and caring for my fellow man. Intersting isn't it? :confused:

I agree with, and understand all that you have said.

Paul

[peter_mary]

I think the reason for the chasm between the two worlds is simple actually. Mormonism is a closed society. It has to be to be able to survive. The ideas and philosophy are so different from anything else in human groups.

This, I'm guessing, is a common conundrum. I know I've struggled with it. But I think it's more than just being "closed" as a society, (though it clearly is.) It's also about information (which you also talked about). When we were "in" we knew all the answers to all the questions in all the Sunday School manuals and Priesthood manuals and Relief Society manuals. We were smug in our knowledge that the gospel was at once both complex and beautifully simple.

Then we read. And read. And read some more, and suddenly you find yourself filled with a library full of new information...that no one at Church has every even known existed, let alone availed themselves to. I know for a while I tried to continue going to Priesthood, and would try to comment in thought provoking ways with new perspectives on the same old tired questions. I received blank looks in reply. The more I tried to make sense of my ideas in terms they could understand, the more I realized the futility of it. In order for my comments to make sense, everything would have to begin with, "Okay, see I read all these books..." and then I'd have to launch into a 20 minute discourse on the background just to provide the context, in order for the comment to make any sense. Or I could sit quiety and say nothing. Or better yet, I could go find other people who already shared the background and with whom I could have a reasonably intelligent conversation.

It wasn't because they were dumb...they weren't. But they had been told, as I had been, that ALL the answers could be found at Church, so why would you look elsewhere? And upping the ante, anything you read outside the confines of the Church is not just untrue, it's of the Devil. Reading it subjects you to the buffetings of Satan, and why would you do that? In fact, you could argue that intelligent men and women would protect themselves actively from the influence of Satan. (It was one of THE most important steps in my evolution out of the Church to dispell the myth of Satan...which my Churchy neighbors and family would say is "exactly what he wants you to believe!" See, I'm already going to hell...sigh... By recognizing that Satan is only a symbol, mostly of ourselves, I could safely step outside and explore the world that I had been warned was evil. Come to find out, it's more incredible than any celestial room I've ever been in...)

So now I don't even try to talk to them about anything spiritual. I know what they know...I taught it for 20 years, but they will never know what I know until they undertake a long, arduous and sometimes painful journey...one they are highly unlikely to take.

Paul

[peter_mary]

As active members, I think we push ourselves to bond with other church members because in a sense it validates our "worthiness". Does that make sense?

Here's my question...do ward members really "bond" with other ward members, or do they just co-exist? I think you're absolutely right that there is an urgency to appear connected, hence the regular attendance at every cotton-picking meeting ever conceived of by the minds of deluded men, but I believe those connections are almost exclusively superficial. The reasons for that are numerous, including the need to validate our own worthiness, as you pointed out. But I don't think it's so much about the relationship as it is about being busy. As Church members, we were in close proximity to other ward members at all times because we had so much to do! And the busyness is really what validates our worthiness, because as we all recall, it is our works by which we are judged, and nowhere is there more opportunity to work than at Church.

In addition, because the Church promotes(sort of) the ideal of "love your neighbor," when Church members do work side by side, there is this expectation that they are going to get along...it's the Christ-like way to be. Same with Hometeaching/Visiting teaching. The expectation is a "surface phenomenon," in other words, it's what makes the relationship look good. But it's hollow. There's seldom anything underneath to really sustains a lasting relationship. There is no intimacy, no sharing of failurs and victories, heart-aches and hardships (how could we share those things? It would demonstrate our imperfection!)

Case in point. How many of you ever moved from one part of town to another, and in the process changed wards? Or even more extreme, just went through a ward split? Ever notice that the people you considered friends in your old ward simply disappeared, and were replaced by people in your new ward? Why? Because the relationship was about nothing more than proximity and appearance. Really no different than the vast majority of work relationships or other neighborhood relationships. But we deceived ourselves that we had "good friends in the ward" because we felt "friendly" toward them. It was the expectation, and we lived up to it. But there is a chasm between "friendly" and "good friends." My experience has been that virtually all church relationships favor the former...

Remember when the Hich Councilman would come to your Sacrament meeting, and prior to beginning his talk he would say something to the effect of, "The Stake President wants you to know he loves you." Really? He doesn't even know me, how can he love me? But we say those things because it is the expectation, and since the ultimate expectation is to "be perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect" (a lofty goal...), then we better roll up our sleeves and get to loving our neighbors...and since we don't know how, we'll go through a series of gyrations that at least make it look as if we love our neighbors.

The end result was a psychological sense that we were connected to the community of Christ, but really we were just busy. We'd look around us and see that every other good member of the ward was doing the same thing, and it was very, very validating...so we all just kept doing it, round and round on the merri-go-round until...we barfed.

[silverfox]

Very well put! What is utterly amazing is that we didn't see it before. Or we did but sugarcoated it. I look back and I am just amazed TOTALLY amazed at it all. Kind of freaky.

[Nate]

"So without belaboring it, I want to close this by asking simply if others have experienced A) the phenomenon of triangulating every relationship with the Church, and B) if you find that you now have more quality relationships on the outside than you ever did on the inside...or not? What has been your experience?"

Excellent observations and questions.
A) Most definitely
B) Most definitely

While a TBM, I had many "good friends". Friends that I've grown up with (or near) and with whom I shared all the teenage experiences. As soon as I left the church in my late teens, these friendships automatically changed. Our relationships went from one of extreme closeness (I thought) to extremely awkward hello's in passing. Eventually, one by one, my TBM friends got married, and I went out of my way to attend each and every reception. Guess how many of these TBM friends accepted my invitations and showed up for my wedding receptions? Exactly Zero.

Those relationships were not built on substance. And now I see that before this, neither were many of my familial relationships. I come from a very large family, 80% devout TBM. When I was part of that percentage, my friendships with siblings were much the same.

Before my exodus from the church, I barely got along with the members of my family that I was closest to. Yes, we co-existed. Didn't really have the time, or the desire to foster those relationships any further than that. They're siblings, they'll always be there, why do I need to be good friends with them? They know I love them, what's the point in telling them, or showing it?

Now, being free from the church, our relationships have grown stonger than I ever imagined. We are truly no longer merely brothers, but best friends. It's weird; before, I never told my brothers I loved them, and if I did it would feel extremely awkward. Now it is comfortably said every time we speak.

And the friends that I have now, the friends that actually showed up for my wedding receptions, they are the "other" friends that I had while growing up. The ones that did not belong to the church. The friends that were not allowed inside my mother's house. These are the relationships that have withstood the test of 5-10 years and multiple time zones, when the others failed in 6 months and two city blocks.

[Jeff_Ricks]

I recognize from your description about your life that you're the Nate I know who is good friends with my son in Arizona. I'm so glad he has you as a friend! I think you're truly a high quality human being though there was a time when I had too much Mormonism in me to realize that.

Yes, my experience has been affirmative to both A and B.

One of my missionary companions came up with a metaphor he liked to use to convince indifferent prospects that they needed Mormonism in their lives. He’d tell them that if they’d driven a Volkswagen all their lives, liked it and felt no desire to change, once they’d driven a Cadillac they’d realize what they’d been missing and never again see the Volkswagen in the same way. The Cadillac was of course supposed to represent Mormonism (snicker, snicker). I think a more accurate metaphor is the AMC Gremlin – looked good on the outside but was a big disappointment with many owners realizing they’d been had and wanted their money back.

But in terms of the Volkswagen vs. the Cadillac metaphor I look back on life as a Mormon as realize that I was barely a human being – more like a machine barely aware of who I was as a person. I think until one gets out and sees life from a more normal perspective, not the distorted triangulated perspective, they can’t fully appreciate how much of their real “Self” they were missing as Mormon. Maybe the Cadillac image doesn’t quite cut it either. For me it’s more like getting out and walking – taking time to drink in life and truly enjoy each moment.

Jeff

[Nate]

Yep, it's me! Thank you very much for the compliment. I'm actually quite honored to be such a good friend of your son. He's a very good man, one of the best I know. And through many deep conversations with him I've grown to respect you alot. You've been a great guiding light for him, a voice of reason in a sea of insanity.

And don't worry, when you "had too much Mormonism in" you, I had too much depair in me to be someone worthy of that compliment. When you knew me in Logan I wasn't the guy I am today. I was still in a disoriented and angered state after having recently left the church, and I hadn't yet found my inner peace. I'm glad to say that your son is one of those that helped me find it.

Thanks for building this forum. It's a great place. Take care.