Excommunication

[tjohnson]

Yesterday I was talking with a friend about excommunication. This person's father was excommuncated about 5 years ago for repeated adultery.

A topic came up that had never crossed my mind... if the church is based on Jesus Christ as they state, and Christ already paid for all of our sins, how does excommunication lead this person to Christ's salvation? By pushing them out of the church, they are pushing them away from "the only true church on earth". That doesn't make sense. :Crazy:

Then the solution came up that makes more sense... the people in the church don't want to be "associated" with people "like that". They don't want those "type" of people to be "Mormons". :Puking :Puking

More and more things come to light each and every day... :mad:

[free thinker]

Yesterday I was talking with a friend about excommunication. This person's father was excommuncated about 5 years ago for repeated adultery.

A topic came up that had never crossed my mind... if the church is based on Jesus Christ as they state, and Christ already paid for all of our sins, how does excommunication lead this person to Christ's salvation? By pushing them out of the church, they are pushing them away from "the only true church on earth". That doesn't make sense. :Crazy:

Then the solution came up that makes more sense... the people in the church don't want to be "associated" with people "like that". They don't want those "type" of people to be "Mormons". :Puking :Puking

More and more things come to light each and every day... :mad:

Kinda strange.

Joseph Smith was the most prolific adulterer that I know of!! Go Figure!!

Free Thinker

[peter_mary]

Yesterday I was talking with a friend about excommunication. This person's father was excommuncated about 5 years ago for repeated adultery.

A topic came up that had never crossed my mind... if the church is based on Jesus Christ as they state, and Christ already paid for all of our sins, how does excommunication lead this person to Christ's salvation? By pushing them out of the church, they are pushing them away from "the only true church on earth". That doesn't make sense. :Crazy:

Then the solution came up that makes more sense... the people in the church don't want to be "associated" with people "like that". They don't want those "type" of people to be "Mormons". :Puking :Puking

More and more things come to light each and every day... :mad:

I know that the party line on excommunication is that "it relieves the sinner from the burden of responsibility for upholding the gospel principles until such time as they are ready to recieve those blessings again." That's why it is supposed to be a "court o' love."

But it has turned out to be a punitive act of punishment, and an act of "keeping the image of the Church untarnished." See, the Church really is about the Church, not the Church members. It's goal is to ensure the longevity of the institution, not the salvation of any individual member. In other words, it looks out for itself.

We have a prominent situation in our community in which a former scout camp employee was convicted of multiple counts of molesting boys at camp, as well as at least one count of molesting a 6 year old while on his mission. There is a long story involving stupid decisions on the part of a Bishop, parents, and the Boy Scouts (which in this town is synonymous with the Church) which I don't wish to get into on this thread. The pertinent part for this thread is that he confessed to his Bishop the first time 15 years ago, it all came to a legal head 11 years ago, he was arrested, tried and convicted, served jail time (a mere 150 days, which is a travesty of justice considering he admitted to molesting 24 children...) and then went on to marry and live a quiet life of Church service.

Then the newspaper here in town learned that the Boy Scouts and their attorneys managed to get the record for his two cases not only sealed, but removed from the system! They were wiped out. So the paper got a hold of the story, the paper's attorney got involved and starting poking and proding, and eventually the records were opened up and the newspaper had a grand time with a full week of front-page stories exposing the perpetrator, the Boy Scouts and the Church for all the wrong-doings in the case.

And then, and only then, did the Church decide to excommunicate the perpetrator. See, it was okay with the Church if they had a sexual predator on the roles SO LONG AS NO ONE KNEW ABOUT IT, but once it started looking bad for the Church, they had to cut him off.

Which, you could make the argument that in theory the guy had put his life together and moved on (would be more likely true if he was a common criminal rather than a sexual predator, but I'm talking theory here), but that now in his hour of need (his life is over as he knows it), the Church turns its back on him because it looks bad for them. Is this an action of "love?"

Everybody now...

NO. It is clearly an act of self-preservation on the part of the Church, with no consideration for the needs of the individual members.

Should he have been excommunicated? Certainly...15 years ago when this was first discovered. He should have been exed, reported, tried and thrown in jail for a long, long time. But once all that's done and behind you, you've served your time, you've kept "your nose clean" so to speak, and have served the Church (hopefully not with children!), it seems immoral to cut him off NOW only because the Church is embarrased.

Court of love my butt...

Paul

[dogzilla]

Having been on the receiving end of the abuse perpetrator... Paul's last post has me seething.

That just ain't right. And we all know it.

:mad: :mad:

Oh, and :Puking

[silverfox]

Having been on the receiving end of the abuse perpetrator... Paul's last post has me seething.

That just ain't right. And we all know it.

:mad: :mad:

Oh, and :Puking

Yeah, agreed. Makes me sick. And it happens way too often. Always had and I can't see that changing. There are recent cases in my stake that are less than a year old. Went unreported to law enforcement enabling the perp to continue abusing. Maybe I should call KUTV and let them know. Maybe that will get some action?

[pokatator]

See, the Church really is about the Church, not the Church members. It's goal is to ensure the longevity of the institution, not the salvation of any individual member. In other words, it looks out for itself.

Then the newspaper here in town learned that the Boy Scouts and their attorneys managed to get the record for his two cases not only sealed, but removed from the system! They were wiped out. So the paper got a hold of the story, the paper's attorney got involved and starting poking and proding, and eventually the records were opened up and the newspaper had a grand time with a full week of front-page stories exposing the perpetrator, the Boy Scouts and the Church for all the wrong-doings in the case.

And then, and only then, did the Church decide to excommunicate the perpetrator. See, it was okay with the Church if they had a sexual predator on the roles SO LONG AS NO ONE KNEW ABOUT IT, but once it started looking bad for the Church, they had to cut him off.

Court of love my butt...

Paul
I am familiar with the case, Paul's post is excellent and very true.

There are many many cases that are hushed up in the court system. It is rare that one slips through the cracks and just happens to get a little extra publicity than usual, like the case Paul mentions.

There are many, many, many more cases that don't even make it to the court system, they are hushed up in the Bish's and Stake Pres's offices.

The court system in my town is corrupt, an extension of the "Church". Just look at how unwed mothers are dealt with in the courts, it is ran by the "Church" as an adoption agency. There have been lots of land swaps between "Church" and county, city, university, on and on that are totally to the "Church's" advantage. This is just the tip of the iceberg. They are everywhere in the city and county government.

Thanx for a great post, Paul...

Randy

[silverfox]

The court system in my town is corrupt, an extension of the "Church". Just look at how unwed mothers are dealt with in the courts, it is ran by the "Church" as an adoption agency. There have been lots of land swaps between "Church" and county, city, university, on and on that are totally to the "Church's" advantage. This is just the tip of the iceberg. They are everywhere in the city and county government.

Thanx for a great post, Paul...

Randy

Randy - you just reminded me again how badly I would love to move out of Utard.

[nate]

The court system in my town is corrupt, an extension of the "Church". Just look at how unwed mothers are dealt with in the courts, it is ran by the "Church" as an adoption agency. There have been lots of land swaps between "Church" and county, city, university, on and on that are totally to the "Church's" advantage. This is just the tip of the iceberg. They are everywhere in the city and county government.

Randy

You are definitely correct here. Sorry for getting off the topic of excommunication, but I can attest to the validity of your claim. My brother was a victim of this church/court adoption scheme, and now will never see his daughter grow up. But it's all good, cause it's better that the child be raised by a "Good Mormon Family", right!?!!? :mad:

And it is not just the court system that is corrupt, it is also the law enforcement that works hand in hand with it and the church. Blatant profiling is rampant; not usually racial but religious (although I'm sure racial profiling happens too). I have dozens of stories about corruption in both of these systems; and just those that have happened to me personally or to a member in my family. Most are so outrageous that I wouldn't believe them if I hadn't been there. Standard protocol in Cache Valley would result in judges loosing their seats, cops being fired, and lawyers going out practice, if the same things were to happen elsewhere. They are all "in bed together" so tight...because of the church. What lawyer is going to fight against his EQ Pres, the cop, and his brother's Bish, the Judge, all for some heathen? What Mormon Judge is going to take the word of a man in handcuffs over the word of a Cop in her ward? I'm talking about prosecuting attorneys meeting with bishops before deciding how to sentence a criminal in the bish's ward, and worse. These things happen all the time there.

Damn, I'm so glad I'm outa that place!! :Puking :eek: :Puking