how mormon are you?

[ifitmakesuhappy]

The beliefnet quiz and my results compared to all of your results got me thinkin...
Although ive recently discovered a whole load of things about the church that i never knew in my 28 yrs of TBMism, and although i now believe that Joseph Smith was a lot of things, but certainly not a Prophet...tied with the fact that I feel good now about being gay, and the guilt and shame has gone...i found (to my despair) that i am still mormon inside, (at least according to the beliefnet system of figurin me out!) as the LDS church suprisingly was at #1 on my results table. So i was thinking today about how much the things i was taught have stuck with me and how it seems unshakable. For example; I still perceive God and the whole deity thing in the same way as i did before. I still believe the bible stories. i still believe in life after death, even life before life...satan, the creation, the worth of souls, prayer, charity, integrity....etc etc etc Now post moism is in its early days for me so its likely as i carry on my reading and studies that some of this will change and then i will retake the beliefnet quiz and see how ive changed.
But i was wondering about the rest of you - what things that you were taught in the LDS church have stayed with you? What things do you believe that you may have never believed had you never been involved with moism? ...and why?

[peter_mary]

There is one, single, ever-so-tiny part of me that remains Mormon...my name on some membership record in the Church HQ. Pretty much anything else I can think of doctrinally, spiritually or philosophically is either non-specific to Mormonism or is categorically opposed to Mormonism.

To the extent that Mormonism espouses love of others, charity, honesty, that kind of thing, I am in agreement, but those are the kinds of things that Mormonism borrowed from millenia of philosophical thinking and is not the unique contribution of Mormonism. Anything unique to Mormonism is gone, gone, GONE!

Say Amen!

Paul

[gracie]

The beliefnet quiz and my results compared to all of your results got me thinkin...
Although ive recently discovered a whole load of things about the church that i never knew in my 28 yrs of TBMism, and although i now believe that Joseph Smith was a lot of things, but certainly not a Prophet...tied with the fact that I feel good now about being gay, and the guilt and shame has gone...i found (to my despair) that i am still mormon inside, (at least according to the beliefnet system of figurin me out!) as the LDS church suprisingly was at #1 on my results table. So i was thinking today about how much the things i was taught have stuck with me and how it seems unshakable. For example; I still perceive God and the whole deity thing in the same way as i did before. I still believe the bible stories. i still believe in life after death, even life before life...satan, the creation, the worth of souls, prayer, charity, integrity....etc etc etc Now post moism is in its early days for me so its likely as i carry on my reading and studies that some of this will change and then i will retake the beliefnet quiz and see how ive changed.
But i was wondering about the rest of you - what things that you were taught in the LDS church have stayed with you? What things do you believe that you may have never believed had you never been involved with moism? ...and why?

I really don't know what I believe. For me, the LDS church was a roomful of knowledge (questionable term) that I had acquired through my believing 37 years of borninthecovenant, seminary graduate, temple marraige TBMness. I have decided to empty the room (as much as is possible) and refill it with a belief system that I create myself, based on my own feelings, reading and study, and experiences. I have chosen to be an apathetic agnostic for now, until I acquire any info that contradicts that. (See http://www.apatheticagnostic.com/ for a tongue in cheek definition)
As I go through life and each day, if I think about it, I will make mental notes about what makes sense, what the world tells me through my experiences with other people, and what feels sensible and good. I daily acknowledge that everything I now believe could well be totally off base, but that's o.k., I keep an open mind and am learning to be comfortable with the seeming chaos of my life. It works for me!!
Gracie

[nate]

That's a very good question, but it's very hard to answer. It's also got me thinking a bit. What in my belief system would not have been there had it not been for Moism?

Most of the things that I value, or hold dear, were taught to me, or gained value, when I was a Mo. Now the thing is, were these things taught to me as a result of the church in my family, or were they taught to me as a result of having honorable, kind-hearted, loving parents who just happened to be Mo?

It's very hard to distinguish when the religion is all-encompassing; a culture, not just a church. Looking around, I see many, many people that have similar beliefs as me, and similar values, who have never been touched by the church. I see many people outside the church that believe and behave in ways that I never would; but that type is also inside the church.

Basically, for me, it comes down to this:
I view the church much like I view the Bible. The Bible is a great book; it can teach us wonderful things and the messages behind most of the stories are more or less pure and good. However, how many other books can you say that about?

Ultimately, the good is IN us; the church/bible helps us find it, teaches us to use it, then claims to be the source.

[peter_mary]

Ultimately, the good is IN us; the church/bible helps us find it, teaches us to use it, then claims to be the source.

Bingo! Very profound, Nate, very profound!

Paul

[Born Free]

My post-Mo process started at least 10 years before I left and the major elements that formed it are the following:

I abhore censorship. (Australia's nationhood is frequently identified as starting with its involvement in a military action under British commanders at Gallipoli in Turkey during WW1. It was a military disaster due to inept leadership at numerous levels (British), but it took Rupert Murdoch's father of all people, as a young jounalist, to defy censorship and tell the truth about what was really happening there.) For me, someone thinking they know better what another should read is patronising in the extreme. People don't grow to adulthood, being treated like children. The Church does it all the time, and I got to the point I needed a sick bag to read most Church pulp.

I abhore dishonesty - but saw it at every turn.

I abhore the abuse of power, but saw it all the time.

I abhore stupidity and willful ignorance, but saw an organisation that thrived on it, and a large percentage of people who revelled in it.

I abhore cultural ignorance, but found a religion that was so obviously North American in its sensibilities, but happily perceived those values were, or should be universal, with in most cases appauling levels of ignorance of others.

I saw appauling levels of ignorance and fear around anything sexual, and the system responded in the exact opposite way to how I do.

Whilst I probably will still be trying to root out my male chauvanism to the day I die, I am philosophically opposed to it, but found Moism thrived and prided itself upon it.

I found a certaintity about beliefs around the unknowable that I felt increasingly uncomfortable with.

I found many very small, pathetic men in positions of power, who delighted to wield that power without regard to any principle of, good management, fairness or accountability.

I found a lot of people who appeared to delight in living in some form of LA-LA Land, which I prefer not to do.

I found an organisation that laundered its history, where as I believe tell the truth and let the dice fall how they may.

I discovered Spongs writing, and that opened up a way of seeing the Bible and mainstream Christianity that made much more sense to me, and was consistent with my belief of starting from the best attempt at the truth, and then seeing where that leads.

I saw some really sick people, who really needed professional help, but wore their crazy-arsed beliefs and mindset as some badge of honour, and I decided they weren't for me.

I have extreme difficulty with the idea of Satan, and try to be as accountable for my problematic behaviours as possible. I see huge potential for both good and bad in myself; for love or fear based behaviour. Based upon that I know I feel more comfortable with people who are comitted to responsibility for their own behaviour, and try to avoid people who try to avoid same by saying "the Devil made me do it!"

I have no conscious knowledge or experience of what preceded mortality, or what may follow, if anything; but I figure that can be a huge distraction from actually being present to live my life in the fullest most healthy way.

I believe that the miraculous content of the Bible is fanciful in the extreme, and that a large part of its "history" is a creation.

I came increasingly to be convinced that the two most important concepts essential to healthy adult functioning, particularly intimate relationships, are boundaries and projection. I observed that Mormonism, actively models and encourages projection (e.g. disowned parts of self onto the Devil, the Sacrament, Gentiles etc), and encouraged poor boundary development and maintenance.

They are the major elements. Your self-observation is a valuable one, and IMHO, can be the beginning of a really exciting and rewarding journey.

Daryl

[Born Free]

The beliefnet quiz and my results compared to all of your results got me thinkin...
Although ive recently discovered a whole load of things about the church that i never knew in my 28 yrs of TBMism, and although i now believe that Joseph Smith was a lot of things, but certainly not a Prophet...tied with the fact that I feel good now about being gay, and the guilt and shame has gone...i found (to my despair) that i am still mormon inside, (at least according to the beliefnet system of figurin me out!) as the LDS church suprisingly was at #1 on my results table. So i was thinking today about how much the things i was taught have stuck with me and how it seems unshakable. For example; I still perceive God and the whole deity thing in the same way as i did before. I still believe the bible stories. i still believe in life after death, even life before life...satan, the creation, the worth of souls, prayer, charity, integrity....etc etc etc Now post moism is in its early days for me so its likely as i carry on my reading and studies that some of this will change and then i will retake the beliefnet quiz and see how ive changed.
But i was wondering about the rest of you - what things that you were taught in the LDS church have stayed with you? What things do you believe that you may have never believed had you never been involved with moism? ...and why?
ifitmakesuhappy,

Can I ask aloud if you are being a bit hard on yourself?

Mormonism is a set of beliefs, like a cake recipe. Different cakes use different ingredients. When I was a kid, I liked sponge cake, and suffered fruit cake. Now, I prefer a good fruit cake any day! :)

Underneath this apparently homogeneus package that has the label Mormonism are a suite of beliefs, some of which are shared by other religions, some not so.

I read this survey as trolling to see which beliefs respondents hold, and then showing what religions hold the same ones. That is different to defining you as in some way 80% Mormon!

Just this morning I had a humorous phone conversation with a never Mo ex Methodist friend who I pointed at the site. He was mock-distressed to see he rated Mo at about 4 or 5 or about 70%, where as I had it at about 40% and a mutual exMo friend had it at about 20%.

One way to see how you might have made up the score and why it was so highly compatible with Mosim, is to check out the beliefs table they worked off. That can be done by using the hyperlink behind each belief in your score sheet.

When I tried a cut and paste off that site, my paste turned to mud, so I used a modified paste, which pasted just ASCI. But if you go back through this thread, you will see responses where the hyperlinks are intact. For example Twines post 0f 4th or 5th March on the original Belief.net thread.

You can go direct to the Mo one at:
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/80/story_8035_1.html

By seeing the "religion" package deconstructed in this way, you might find more entry points to systematically review your own beliefs. One great resource I found helpful in really shining cold hard light on both Mormonism and Christianity was Richard Packhams site: http://home.teleport.com/~packham/index.htm

When you get to see some intelligent alternate takes on much of what you were coached to view uncritically as FACT, you will be more informed as a basis of making up your own mind. You have a fascinating journey of discovery of different religions, philosophies, cultural variations, psychology etc ahead of you that can stimulate and fascinate for years.

Daryl

PS: BTW, While I would love to believe you have put behind you all the negative s#it Mormonism put on you about your sexuality, I would caution you against thinking that that amount of indoctrination can be undone that fast. From my own experience in a slightly different area, I would encourage you to be cautious for signs that you may not have unbundled that, and to engage quality support if required, so as not to let any unhealed crap sabotage your new relationships. You have done it hard to get out, so don't make it any harder from here on that is absolutely necessary. Some of the gray haired gays on site may be able to offer their experience in that regard.