Post-Mormon Identity

[peter_mary]

My wife pointed out the following to me from one of the Women's Studies textbooks she teaches from. I've adapted it to reflect the Post-Mormon identity rather than the feminist identity, because the developmental stages are almost precisely the same. (I don't see right off the bat who to attribute this to, and I'm too lazy to go hunting for it, but you can find it on page 476 of the text entitled "Half the Human Experience: The Psychology of Women.")

Stage 1: Passive Acceptance. In this stage, Mormons passively accept traditional roles and dogmas and do not question either. [When we were True Believing Mormons, we accepted the gospel and the history and the standards and patriarchy at face value, without questioning. We didn't think about it, we just lived it.]

Stage 2: Revelation. In this stage, catalyzed perhaps by a crisis, reading a book or stumbling upon an internet site, the member questions dogma, history and their own testimony. They often experience great anger and hold a negative view of the Church and its leaders. [This is the first step "out." I don't know ANYONE who, upon realizing that it was all a deception, didn't get pretty darn angry.]

Stage 3: Embeddedness. The Post-Mo develops a sense of connectedness with other Post-Mo's and receives affirmation and strength from them. [That's what this site is all about...affirmation, validation, community building, growing stronger, etc.]

Stage 4: Synthesis. The Post-Mo develops a positive self-identity and transcends their former Mormon upbringing and scripting. They no longer blame the Church and its members, and evaluate each person, Mormon, non-Mormon and Post-Mormon on an individual basis. [This is critical in my mind. It's the stage when you really break free from the expectations that Church has of you, and you are free to evaluate individuals based on your own experience, rather than a set of pre-determined standards handed down from Salt Lake. It's what really frees a person to navigate comfortably in the Post-Mormon world. Its also what finally frees you to "love your neighbor as yourself," ironically enough...]

Stage 5: Active Commitment. Post-Mormon identity is consolidated and the Post-Mo becomes committed to working actively to promote an inclusive world. [This is the part where we give back and reach out...both to those who are struggling to get out, and those who are struggling to stay in. When we are comfortable in our own skin, with our own identity, we are no longer threatened by their identity. Ultimately, we get past the whole "us/them" paradigm and just see each other as people. Period. Folks who are just trying to get along in this world, same as me.]

I think this is useful in normalizing our experience. As I said, this was developed to identify the developmental stages of feminist identity (see, Boyd K. Packer had good reason to identify feminists as one of the three enemies of the Church!), but it is no doubt applicable to anyone evolving out of a restrictive paradigm into an open paradigm.

Paul

[Jeff_Ricks]

A very insightful post! That’s one I think I’ll refer to in the future. By the way the plan is to keep all posts on this website permanently available. If anyone likes one in particular and would like to link others to it they can bookmark it and be assured that it will be there in the future.

I also want to comment on one thing in particular you said, Paul:

"those who are struggling to get out, and those who are struggling to stay in."

That's exactly the people this site is intended to reach out to. Obviously it's for those who have left and struggling to leave it fully behind so they can live normal lives, but it’s also for those who I think of as the silent sufferers -- those who have serious doubts but are afraid to let anyone know for fear of social repercussions. I think we’d all be surprised just how many there are who fall in that category.

Jeff

[B. Hedshiz]

My wife pointed out the following to me from one of the Women's Studies textbooks she teaches from. I've adapted it to reflect the Post-Mormon identity rather than the feminist identity, because the developmental stages are almost precisely the same...


Thanks for pointing out those stages. I honestly see myself around stage 4 or even 5. I remember stages 2 and 3 rather well, because of the emotion involved. I want to help people avoid Mormonism, or move beyond it. Web sites like this one help.

[silverfox]

Good stuff. Might I add that maybe also in stage 2 there is also lots of emotional pain and feelings of deep betrayal before the anger. In my case anyway. I can't believe how utterly devastated I was to learn the church isn't true. I felt someone had torn out my heart and soul and stomped on it. I cried. For weeks. Most of my entire life was based on LIES. THEN I got angry. Boy did I get angry! I would like to think I am between stages 4-5. But I still have TBM family members and as long as I do I will have to deal with church crap. I am getting better at. I usually roll my eyes to release frustration rather than saying something extremely sarcasic outloud to an inappropriate audience (tbm family).

[peter_mary]

Might I add that maybe also in stage 2 there is also lots of emotional pain and feelings of deep betrayal before the anger. In my case anyway. I can't believe how utterly devastated I was to learn the church isn't true. I felt someone had torn out my heart and soul and stomped on it. I cried. For weeks.

The pain you talk about is a bonafide grief response. When we were TBMs, our testimony was our identity. Particularly those of you who were born and raised in the culture, your entire sense of self was/is wrapped up in your Mormon identity. Even those of us who are converts find this to be true, because our whole life revolves around who you are supposed to be in relation to the Church.

When you finally come to terms with the realization that it isn't at all what you thought, something very real dies--you. Everything you believed, everything you based your life upon, everything you had faith in...dead. In some ways it can be more painful than the loss of a loved one, because we generally know how to pick up our lives and move on in the absence of another person. But how do you pick up and go on in the absence of yourself?

People dear to me cried for years, and one even had herself put on Prozac so she could clear her head long enough to begin the reconstruction process. Those who are just beginning this journey need to know that the waves of hurt, betrayal, euphoria, anger, devastation and unbounded joy are just a natural part of the grieving process. Like the receding tide, the waves do eventually leave you safely on the beach.

Paul

[free thinker]

I so much appreciate your posting the steps.

I am in step 2, and I am very angry!! I feel so totally betrayed. I do not want to be this angry, but I know in time it will pass. :mad:

I am a convert, and joined the church as a sixteen year old young man. I served a faithfull full time mission, and was released with honor. ( Got my first inklings of doubt in the mission field) By the way I joined in 1975. So I have been at this for some time.

I do not wish to be one who is absorbed in anger. Nor do I wish to have any ill will to any of my fellow men. I do want to be free though, and feel I am on my way. :cool:

Paul :)

[silverfox]

I so much appreciate your posting the steps.

I am in step 2, and I am very angry!! I feel so totally betrayed. I do not want to be this angry, but I know in time it will pass. :mad:

I am a convert, and joined the church as a sixteen year old young man. I served a faithfull full time mission, and was released with honor. ( Got my first inklings of doubt in the mission field) By the way I joined in 1975. So I have been at this for some time.

I do not wish to be one who is absorbed in anger. Nor do I wish to have any ill will to any of my fellow men. I do want to be free though, and feel I am on my way. :cool:

Paul :)

Interesting....I joined in 1975, too. I was 18. It wasn't long after I joined that I started questioning but all too common I was hushed and told to not worry, it's not for me to know, etc. My apostate anger was not only directed toward the church but also toward myself for buying into it. It's really out of character for me to get involved without questioning more right up front. OH well. There are some good things that have come out of being a member. I try to hold on to that and try to let the rest go. Difficult at times.

[peter_mary]

I am in step 2, and I am very angry!! I feel so totally betrayed. I do not want to be this angry, but I know in time it will pass.


If it's any consolation, even though I feel like I've moved through most of the stages, I still get angry, too, especially when I think of the control that continues to be exercised over me and my family. For instance, my wife doesn't feel she can live openly because she fears the impact that would have on her business. Recently she was asked, as a favor, to speak to one of her client's Young Men's organizations on the signs of depression (he was thinking he would be preparing them for the mission field). He didn't want her to address gospel topics, he wasn't offering to compensate her, and she was willing to do it in support of her client and with compassion for the young men who often are NOT well prepared for how psychologicall taxing a mission is. But naturally, since she has not resigned, there had to be a Bishop's endorsement in order for her to speak. Turns out, our Bishop didn't think she was worthy enough to address the young men, and denied her the endorsement. Yeah, we were pretty pissed for several days after that, no matter HOW "stage 5" we feel most of the time!

Paul

[peter_mary]

There are some good things that have come out of being a member. I try to hold on to that and try to let the rest go. Difficult at times.

Tell us about the good things. I've been struggling to identify things that are unique to Mormonism that contribute positively that cannot generally be found elsewhere. Is there something like that you are thinking of?

I am familiar with a handful of reasons for viewing the Church as good and/or useful...

I know some people take the, "It ain't perfect, but it's the best show going, so I'll stick with it" approach.

Others take the tack that "I've given up on the 'one-true-only' paradigm, but it's what I know, and it brings me structure whereby I comfortably organize my spiritual life."

I know one young man, a bright young philosopher, who sticks with it because it provides a certain amount of tension that keeps him on his toes, and keeps him always thinking. He fears complacency with his spiritual life far more than he is concerned with the actual tenets of the gospel.

So many others just cut their teeth on honesty, hard work, charity, service, etc. while members of the Church, but recognize they could have obtained that in countless other ways equally as effectively...it just so happened that it was the Church that did it.

For me? The best thing I ever got out of the Church was leaving it. I know that sounds weird, but I really mean it. I SO value the growing experience of learning to find the boundaries of my paradigms and blasting past them into new, uncharted paradigms, that there is almost no other experience I value more. It has taught me volumes about life, the universe and everything (with a nod to Douglas Adams...) that I would never have learned had I not had the opportunity to escape a restrictive, controlling mindset.

So what were the good things for you?

[silverfox]

Tell us about the good things.
So what were the good things for you?

No. I don't think the church offers any good that you can't find elsewhere. I do NOT believe the church has a handle on "good". Quite the opposite. I think they cause way too much damage to all it's members.

But for what it is worth -

I've met a few AWESOME people who are very dear to me whom I would not have met otherwise. Interesting enough, the church is not a big part of our relationship although some of these people are very TBM. (but yes I could have met some awesome people had I never joined the church)

I ended up with a few good killer recipes. (no not the stupid green jello ones...lol) (and yes, I could have gotten these anywhere, not just via my church connection)

Most important, being a former member enables me to identify with and help mentor member teens who are experiencing emotional issues that start with church crap. (molestation cases and how they were mishandled by local leaders and TBM families, leader actions taken against kids and the damage it does regarding "normal sin", spousal abuse cases that were neglected by local church leaders, etc, etc, etc) I hope this makes sense. I mentor troubled youth with a non denominational organization (the school refers students to it) and most of the troubled kids we get are members with very strict staunch TBM parents. Some of these kids come from homes filled with abuse (emotional and physical) by TBM parents. It's unbelievable what I've come in contact with and what members get away with. This alone is worth the bullcrap I've had to endure most of my life as a member. I can take my experiences and use them to try to better someone else's life. What I've endured has not been in vain. However, it is tiresome and I long to escape the negativity. It is frustrating to witness what the church gets away with ALL THE FREAKIN' TIME. We can change this by speaking out and reporting incidents we become aware of and taking away the church's ability to "hide" the damage it enforces on it's members.

I've met some WONDERFUL ex mo people on some of these types of forums whom I would not have met otherwise. No, I don't think I would have met them had I never been a member.

Seems most of the good has come out of being an EX member.

The "con" list regarding my experiences with church is much much much longer than the "pro" list. I want to put any negative energy in doing something positive. Whatever it may be. I know it sounds corny but it works for me. I admire Bob McCue's ability to write and share his knowledge and experiences to help other's through the transition of betrayal, etc.

I've been out a couple years. I often wonder what my life would have been like had I not joined the church. And I just don't know. It could have turned out just as miserable only I would have something else to blame it on. I chose to join so I tend to blame myself for my own misery. But hindsight is always 20/20, isn't it?

Does anyone have any GOOD they can share from their experience as a member? How about as an EX member?

[b_hedshiz]

Tell us about the good things.
I had many great friendships from my youth in the church. Church also provided me with structure I needed as a youth that I didn't really find anywhere else. Maybe I didn't look hard enough?

Sadly, many of the great experiences I had are now gone from what I can tell. Working/playing on the Stake Farm, making pizzas in a fundraiser, Road Shows (do they do those anymore?) and Youth Conferences at a local college were great experiences. From what I know, those are all gone for the most part.

I also had the feeling of family. Our ward worked together to help fund and build our ward house. It was there for us to worship, but it was also *our* place of worship. There was a sense of ownership there. Now the buildings are funded and built by outsiders.
The life has just been sucked out of the church. That isn't why I left, but it sure makes staying a hard choice.

As strange as it may sound, it was the amazing deep doctrines that fascinated me. I wanted to know what all the symbols in the facsimiles meant. Well now I have seen what the facsimiles *really* mean, so the fascination is gone. All I am left with is what now are incredibly correlated lessons that even the most faithful members fight to stay awake in.

I did enjoy growing up LDS. Church now, even without the factual problems, is an incredible bore. I know faithful saints who have the same problem. There is this feeling that we are going to a series of business meeting in an office rather than worship meetings in a church. But the big problem for me is that it just isn't what it claims it is. I just can't see going when it really isn't true.

[silverfox]

I didn't grow up LDS but I've heard wonderful stories from members who have. I know my kids have enjoyed a lot of the activities as well while growing up.

I think it's important to realize we can get the same kind of experiences within other organizations and even religions. I am not interested in joining another religion or becoming involved in one. But there are other ways to form bonds with people especially in doing things in the community.

You mentioned the stake farm and fundraisers. We have a community garden for youth in our city in which they ask for volunteers to help the youth. There are many organizations that want our help. The church made it easy and dropped the convenience of volunteering and working together in our laps. So it takes more effort as a non member to find these opportunities. Some newpapers have volunteer sections. There are also online websites you can go to to find opportunities in your area. (not that anyone is looking or have the time, but just in case anyone is interested) We have a children's justice center in our city as well and they ask for stuffed animals and little quilts to give to kids they work with.

I think I am getting off track....sorry...back to the original thread..........

[Unregistered]

No. I don't think the church offers any good that you can't find elsewhere. I do NOT believe the church has a handle on "good". Quite the opposite. I think they cause way too much damage to all it's members.

But for what it is worth -

I've met a few AWESOME people who are very dear to me whom I would not have met otherwise. Interesting enough, the church is not a big part of our relationship although some of these people are very TBM. (but yes I could have met some awesome people had I never joined the church)

I ended up with a few good killer recipes. (no not the stupid green jello ones...lol) (and yes, I could have gotten these anywhere, not just via my church connection)

Most important, being a former member enables me to identify with and help mentor member teens who are experiencing emotional issues that start with church crap. (molestation cases and how they were mishandled by local leaders and TBM families, leader actions taken against kids and the damage it does regarding "normal sin", spousal abuse cases that were neglected by local church leaders, etc, etc, etc) I hope this makes sense. I mentor troubled youth with a non denominational organization (the school refers students to it) and most of the troubled kids we get are members with very strict staunch TBM parents. Some of these kids come from homes filled with abuse (emotional and physical) by TBM parents. It's unbelievable what I've come in contact with and what members get away with. This alone is worth the bullcrap I've had to endure most of my life as a member. I can take my experiences and use them to try to better someone else's life. What I've endured has not been in vain. However, it is tiresome and I long to escape the negativity. It is frustrating to witness what the church gets away with ALL THE FREAKIN' TIME. We can change this by speaking out and reporting incidents we become aware of and taking away the church's ability to "hide" the damage it enforces on it's members.

I've met some WONDERFUL ex mo people on some of these types of forums whom I would not have met otherwise. No, I don't think I would have met them had I never been a member.

Seems most of the good has come out of being an EX member.

The "con" list regarding my experiences with church is much much much longer than the "pro" list. I want to put any negative energy in doing something positive. Whatever it may be. I know it sounds corny but it works for me. I admire Bob McCue's ability to write and share his knowledge and experiences to help other's through the transition of betrayal, etc.

I've been out a couple years. I often wonder what my life would have been like had I not joined the church. And I just don't know. It could have turned out just as miserable only I would have something else to blame it on. I chose to join so I tend to blame myself for my own misery. But hindsight is always 20/20, isn't it?

Does anyone have any GOOD they can share from their experience as a member? How about as an EX member?

Good expereinces. Well........... let's see........ my college years were overall a good experience. I did note however, that LDS people could be non-excepting of others different from them.

I remember a very pretty roommate I had.( I would have died to look as beautiful as she was! ), all of us roomies went to a Sunday evening get together at the Wilkenson Center featuring a movie on Temple Marriage, morals, etc. During the movie my roomie, got up and dashed out of the room in tears.

I later asked her what was wrong. She tearfully told how her parents in another state were taking care of her baby while she completed her education. She did not marry the babies father. I thought the church callious to the struggles of young people.

I felt she was a pretty strong and brave young lady, to keep her baby, return to the "Y" to educate herself. Stronger than some of the girls there who would look down on her.

I also liked my Navaho roommate, the young lady the other roommate did not wish to share a room with, because she was from the reservation. Not a "Utah" girl.

Guess, it was a good thing the semester before I had done a paper on the America Indian's, the transition groups within their culture, and the steps the culture took into Chrisitianty. I understood some of her native belief system, and it was O.K. it was not like my own.

My first experience at a church college prepared me for the experiences cited above. Freshman year at a church college, I sent my footlockers on before I arrived at school. my address from home printed boldy on them to make sure they did not get lost in shipping. The dorm parents kindly put the footlockers in my bedroom in the apartment. I arrived a day afterwards, to find the girl assigned to my room moving out. This fine "Western" LDS girl, said she could not room from someone from the east. (that was... east of the Mississippi! LOL.)

I am glad I had a Christian background from when I was very young.

I did have some very good friends who were good to me during my college years. However, it will take many years to feel safe around TBM people again, this may never happen. They started a horrible chain of events. I feel many our very dishonest people.

Leaders do not just 'mishandle' abuse in the church, they cover up abuse, harass, discredit the victim and the person who stands up for them.

Stockholm syndrome--- I understand it well.


Nikki

[peter_mary]

The responses to this thread thus far have been very interesting, and probably speaks somewhat to the success of the Church. Let me try to sum up some of it.

There are good memories, particularly from youth experiences. My association with the young men in particular demonstrates that kids are kids no matter what, and if you go to Scout Camp or a high adventure, it's not just testimony sharing...it's also getting lost in the woods together, telling dirty jokes in the tent at night, doing things you'd never done before with your friends, and whether in the Church or not, those memories are important...and good.

There are relationships with neat people. Although I believe most Church relationships are shallow, I suspect most relationships outside the Church are equally shallow. But occassionaly, in or out, we stumble on wonderful people who make us laugh, make us feel good, or make us think. The people I hold most dear, my wife and my best friends, I found in the context of the Church. What's important is that Church provides an opportunity for people to be in close enough proximity that on occassion you bump into a soul-mate. That's good.

There are opportunities to serve. My guess is, this is a big one, because there really is something uplifting about helping other people, and as Silverfox mentioned earlier, while you can always find plenty of opportunity to serve on your own, the Church makes it easy. That's both good and bad, because my "service muscles" have atrophied as a result of it being so easy before, and I find I have to work a lot harder now that those opportunities aren't so "in my face."

I'm not hearing anything doctrinal, however, that anyone felt was good. I'll share one that I have appreciated, and one that is, to my knowledge, unique to Mormonism in the monotheistic traditions (though Buddhism beat Joseph Smith to this idea by many centuries...) That is the enobling philosophy that we and God are made of the same "stuff." The rest of Christianity views a great distinction between God and people in the same way there is a distinction between the potter and his pots. As a philosophical idea, I think that was a bright spot in the inovations of Joseph (though to be honest, I don't know anymore what Joseph was responsible for and what he borrowed from somewhere else.) For me personally, I simply migrated that idea to the recognition that whatever the universe is, so am I, and as it unfolds, so do I unfold with it.

Bottom line, though, is I'm still mostly hearing that the Church is useful as a social organization in much the same way as the Elks Club or the Boy Scouts or the Ladies Tennis League.

Paul

[Unregistered]

The responses to this thread thus far have been very interesting, and probably speaks somewhat to the success of the Church. Let me try to sum up some of it.

There are good memories, particularly from youth experiences. My association with the young men in particular demonstrates that kids are kids no matter what, and if you go to Scout Camp or a high adventure, it's not just testimony sharing...it's also getting lost in the woods together, telling dirty jokes in the tent at night, doing things you'd never done before with your friends, and whether in the Church or not, those memories are important...and good.

There are relationships with neat people. Although I believe most Church relationships are shallow, I suspect most relationships outside the Church are equally shallow. But occassionaly, in or out, we stumble on wonderful people who make us laugh, make us feel good, or make us think. The people I hold most dear, my wife and my best friends, I found in the context of the Church. What's important is that Church provides an opportunity for people to be in close enough proximity that on occassion you bump into a soul-mate. That's good.

There are opportunities to serve. My guess is, this is a big one, because there really is something uplifting about helping other people, and as Silverfox mentioned earlier, while you can always find plenty of opportunity to serve on your own, the Church makes it easy. That's both good and bad, because my "service muscles" have atrophied as a result of it being so easy before, and I find I have to work a lot harder now that those opportunities aren't so "in my face."

I'm not hearing anything doctrinal, however, that anyone felt was good. I'll share one that I have appreciated, and one that is, to my knowledge, unique to Mormonism in the monotheistic traditions (though Buddhism beat Joseph Smith to this idea by many centuries...) That is the enobling philosophy that we and God are made of the same "stuff." The rest of Christianity views a great distinction between God and people in the same way there is a distinction between the potter and his pots. As a philosophical idea, I think that was a bright spot in the inovations of Joseph (though to be honest, I don't know anymore what Joseph was responsible for and what he borrowed from somewhere else.) For me personally, I simply migrated that idea to the recognition that whatever the universe is, so am I, and as it unfolds, so do I unfold with it.

Bottom line, though, is I'm still mostly hearing that the Church is useful as a social organization in much the same way as the Elks Club or the Boy Scouts or the Ladies Tennis League.

Paul

Paul you more than likely are correct when you stated that church relationships are mostly shallow, just as relationships outside of the church can be shallow. The friendships are based on a shared common belief.

You are very lucky that you found your soul mate while inside the church, and she stays by your side now. Not everyone has had that experience. Just as marraiges outside the church do not work out, with the promise of 'eternal marriage' end too, in tragic ends at times.

It is possible that members who have been raised in the church, and have had generations of LDS family, might feel the church a 'social' organization. A place one goes, because everyone else does and your family always has.

The church is more than the 'Elks' Club. The Elks Club does not claim to be the only 'true' service club. Nor, state it is the only way to Heaven. It is a belief system, a system where people are conditioned to act and behave in certain manners. People are conditioned to 'sacrifice', uphold, OBEY, and work in. Giving it more power over it's members than service organizaitons.

Teens have a natural gravitation to fun and interaction. Some the problems come in on the adult leadership areas. And they are very serious problems because of the impact on human life.

Many people who attend church, attend for 'social reasons'. Many people attend because they 'believe' it is the truth, the ONLY truth.

Skills which are learned in the LDS Church, which are not learned by general chruch membership in other churches, would be: The ability to public speak. Most of us, could we not speak before any number of people without shaking? I could. Leadership roles might be another area.

In other churchs the ministers would do most of the talking and would have a governing body of lay people to answer to. They also have people in there membership who teach SS, and in youth programs like AWANA. Public speaking would be the area of most advantage.

I served to many years in the R.S. Presidency, and Mutual, but attend a Christian base faith now, returning to my 'other' roots.

There are several difference between Mormonism and mid stream Christian faiths, since I was raise in both. I know. They know they will never become a God, (makes a more humble person at times, than one who thinks he will be a God). Eternal Marriage, Baptizm for the dead, Prophets, revelations, the list can go on..... and, no Mormonism is not Christanity. I remember when Joseph Smiths pictures where removed from the wards, and Christ's pictures were put in there place. I remember when all anyone talked about was J.S. and Christ was only lightly mentioned, the Bible sometimes, the Book of Mormon always spoken about.

The list given of the greiving process someone may go through is helpful. I am not sure what level I am on, I might be on a number or in between, or on no number at all. I probably saw more bad than most. Wish it could have been more like yours Paul. I would wish that for everyone leaving the Chruch.

Shallow friendships are in and out of the church, ruthless people are in and out of the church. But the betrayal of faith is what makes it different. When it not only has feet of clay, but no foundation.

Betrayal of faith is a painful experience to process through. Losing the affects of 'brainwashing', is a act of awarness, it takes time, and people around who know, who have 'been there'.

Did you know betrayal of faith is more painful than the betrayal of political belief?

Nothing in life is all bad, at least usually. The test is what did it do to your life.

( uhmmmmm....To who got the good recipes:... are you willing to share? I just got the green jello ones!! :-) (lol)

Nikki

[peter_mary]

You are very lucky that you found your soul mate while inside the church, and she stays by your side now. Not everyone has had that experience. Just as marraiges outside the church do not work out, with the promise of 'eternal marriage' end too, in tragic ends at times.

This is SO true...and something I don't take for granted. I have several friends, and know of many others, who find themselves in a "one in/one out" marriage, and my heart breaks for them.

The church is more than the 'Elks' Club. The Elks Club does not claim to be the only 'true' service club. Nor, state it is the only way to Heaven. It is a belief system, a system where people are conditioned to act and behave in certain manners. People are conditioned to 'sacrifice', uphold, OBEY, and work in. Giving it more power over it's members than service organizaitons.

Oh, absolutely! When I was comparing the Church to the Elks or Scouts or whatever, it was only in terms of the "good" that people seemed to be suggesting they gleaned from it. In other words, whatever good seems to be there is equally available in other organizations. The "not-so-good," the cultic aspects, the control, the guilt (oh my goodness, the GUILT!), the demand for loyalty, the brazen insistence on paying for your salvation, etc. are ALL examples of what is hurtful, and why we left. No argument with you on your points!

Skills which are learned in the LDS Church, which are not learned by general chruch membership in other churches, would be: The ability to public speak.

Good point! I had forgotten about this one, but you're right, kids are raised from the beginning to stand behind a microphone and speak to an audience, and that does give them an advantage. We should require our kids to attend Toastmasters in lieu of Primary!

Mormonism is not Christanity.

Actually, from a philosophical point of view, I tend to disagree. I know that Christians do not approve of the association of Mormons as Christians, but it really is a matter of semantics. They are not Christian in the same way, but they revere Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the key to their personal salvation. Everything else is window dressing, as far as I am concerned and everyone fills in the details in their own way. But then, I'm speaking as someone who is a casual observer from outside BOTH schools of thought on that particular issue.

Now THAT might be an interesting thread all by itself, but I worry that it would be hard to keep from promoting one faith over another...maybe I'll let someone else fire that sucker up...

Paul

[Unregistered]

I had many great friendships from my youth in the church. Church also provided me with structure I needed as a youth that I didn't really find anywhere else. Maybe I didn't look hard enough?

Sadly, many of the great experiences I had are now gone from what I can tell. Working/playing on the Stake Farm, making pizzas in a fundraiser, Road Shows (do they do those anymore?) and Youth Conferences at a local college were great experiences. From what I know, those are all gone for the most part.

I also had the feeling of family. Our ward worked together to help fund and build our ward house. It was there for us to worship, but it was also *our* place of worship. There was a sense of ownership there. Now the buildings are funded and built by outsiders.
The life has just been sucked out of the church. That isn't why I left, but it sure makes staying a hard choice.

As strange as it may sound, it was the amazing deep doctrines that fascinated me. I wanted to know what all the symbols in the facsimiles meant. Well now I have seen what the facsimiles *really* mean, so the fascination is gone. All I am left with is what now are incredibly correlated lessons that even the most faithful members fight to stay awake in.

I did enjoy growing up LDS. Church now, even without the factual problems, is an incredible bore. I know faithful saints who have the same problem. There is this feeling that we are going to a series of business meeting in an office rather than worship meetings in a church. But the big problem for me is that it just isn't what it claims it is. I just can't see going when it really isn't true.

I thought the business meeting comment interesting.

There are many good points in all the posting.

[Geary]

Paul,

Once again you have articulated things many of us already knew but don't take the time to carefully put it into words. Thus, your amazing gift for writing and understanding one's plight out of the Mormon church.
I'm so glad that you are on MY side!
Love YA!
Nancy

[candy15]

Jeff, i hope this site is not just for those strugging to get out and those struggling to stay in. i also hope it's for people like me, who are struggling to survive as a non-mormon in a mormon family. this really means something to me, because my views cannot be shared anywhere but here, as i've painfully learned in the past.

[Jeff_Ricks]

Jeff, i hope this site is not just for those strugging to get out and those struggling to stay in. i also hope it's for people like me, who are struggling to survive as a non-mormon in a mormon family. this really means something to me, because my views cannot be shared anywhere but here, as i've painfully learned in the past.

As far as I'm concerned you are very welcome here Candy.

Jeff

[silverfox]

As far as I'm concerned you are very welcome here Candy.

Jeff

Ditto!!!! We can learn from each other, Candy. I am very interested in what it might be like for you as a nonmember married to a member.

[candy15]

Ditto!!!! We can learn from each other, Candy. I am very interested in what it might be like for you as a nonmember married to a member.

Oh, silverfox, it's been a long road. And I do love my hubby's family. They're good people. But as to how they see me--well, I realize they don't really want to see me at all. What I mean is, my thoughts, views on things. These are nothing but upsetting to them. So I've learned over the years to clam up. I've learned to nod and be respectful of their beliefs when in their presence. But I have never felt the same thing in return. It's a lonely thing, when you're a close family. We spend a lot of time together. Sometimes I have felt like a terrible person for wishing that they weren't mormon so that we could be closer. Yet I do see that for them, for the most part, the church seems to make them happy. They, at least, have closed their minds to anything else so don't have to deal with the fear of death or separation or many other issues. This, I envy. But I cannot and will not blind myself. I may have fear, I may question, but my mind is open, and for this I'm so grateful.

[Unregistered]

You are in a tough situation Candy. Hang in there! I believe in love!!


Free Thinker

[peter_mary]

Oh, silverfox, it's been a long road. And I do love my hubby's family. They're good people. But as to how they see me--well, I realize they don't really want to see me at all. What I mean is, my thoughts, views on things. These are nothing but upsetting to them. So I've learned over the years to clam up. I've learned to nod and be respectful of their beliefs when in their presence. But I have never felt the same thing in return.

Candy15,

It's hard enough being formerly Mormon and trying to relate to the in-laws...I can only imagine what it must be like to be a complete outsider. At least when I'm with my in-laws I can talk the talk and reach them where they are. (Yeah, I still play the game with 'em. It would kill them to know what I'm up to out here in Post-Mo land...) You, on the other hand, don't even get the benefit of pretending. sigh...

Welcome to Post-Mormon.com...

Paul

[silverfox]

I've learned to nod and be respectful of their beliefs when in their presence. But I have never felt the same thing in return.

And not to sound pessimistic, but you never will. Members for the most part do not have the ability...no...let me reword, don't WANT the ability to be diverse and open. They are taught to live in the "mold", they can't step outside the mold. The members I've known who were open and diverse ended up as Post Mormons. There is just no place within the church to question leadership, to go against the grain. It is just not accepted and you will be shut down immediately.

May I ask, how long have you been married? And do you live in Utard?

My in laws are very TBM. I "came out" to them just a few months ago. I had to or I would go nuts. I am not good at "pretending". I am the outcast now, the one they talk about, worry about, etc. Was it worth it? Yes but only because I wasn't close to them anyway.

Hubby is in great turmoil over his apostacy because his parents continually make him feel guilty. Persuasion tactics. Very common with members and they don't even know it!

It must be very frustrating to not be able to have a discussion about YOUR beliefs and feelings with your husband. But I greatly admire your ability to swim against the current. A good marriage is worth it.

[jmkm]

I have to coment on something Candy said. Although, I was a "member" when I got married to my husband, I was a new convert. My husband's family NEVER listens to anything I have to say, in terms of advice, or input I give them either.

example: When Forest Gump came out, my husband and I went to see it, and loved it... I told his parents what a good movie it was, but they wouldn't see it because their Bishop said it wasn't good. Of course, when husband's brother told them to see it they did, and then raved about how great it was, and told us we should see it.

Another example: I gave them the book The Christmas Box, one year, before it became soooo popular, because I had read it, and I thought it had a nice message, and was a good story. I of course didn't hear anything about it, until the next Christmas when his dad told us gleefully about a book his sister had given him, and how wonderful it was, and etc...etc... They ended up getting us the same book for Christmas, and when I told them I got it for them last year, they sort of shrugged and said "you did?" And that was that.

I could go, on and on. Even with recipes I have given them. They say ick when I make something, and then will have us try a "fabulous" new dish several months later, and it's the same thing.

I thought they were just like that, but now I really feel they don't think someone like me, who wasn't born it, and burst into tears at every retarded restoration story could have any decent imput.

Candy, I feel for you, I really do.

[nikki]

I have to coment on something Candy said. Although, I was a "member" when I got married to my husband, I was a new convert. My husband's family NEVER listens to anything I have to say, in terms of advice, or input I give them either.

example: When Forest Gump came out, my husband and I went to see it, and loved it... I told his parents what a good movie it was, but they wouldn't see it because their Bishop said it wasn't good. Of course, when husband's brother told them to see it they did, and then raved about how great it was, and told us we should see it.

Another example: I gave them the book The Christmas Box, one year, before it became soooo popular, because I had read it, and I thought it had a nice message, and was a good story. I of course didn't hear anything about it, until the next Christmas when his dad told us gleefully about a book his sister had given him, and how wonderful it was, and etc...etc... They ended up getting us the same book for Christmas, and when I told them I got it for them last year, they sort of shrugged and said "you did?" And that was that.

I could go, on and on. Even with recipes I have given them. They say ick when I make something, and then will have us try a "fabulous" new dish several months later, and it's the same thing.

I thought they were just like that, but now I really feel they don't think someone like me, who wasn't born it, and burst into tears at every retarded restoration story could have any decent imput.

Candy, I feel for you, I really do.

Sorry, you are your in-laws are treating you this way. They are not being kind people. May I suggest a 'read' for you, two books, "Toxic People", and "Toxic In-Laws", the books might give some insite to the situation.

It is painful when one is discounted in a family unit. There is wisdom in the words, "know thy self", and don't let someones else bad behavior affect the way you feel about yourself.

The forum will be a good group for you to express you thoughts and feelings.

[Born Free]

Many years ago I came across the idea that Elizabeth Kubler-Ross' stages of death and dying model can be applied to personal growth. For those unfamiliar, KR proposed back in the 70s that the dying person goes through steps covered by the acronym DABDA:

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

She argued that they do not necessarily have to be experienced in that order. Like most models, it is not necessarily perfect, but can be useful.

The application of the model to personal growth possibly needs some explanation. If we have a particular view of ourselves, in the transition to becoming more of who we might be, the old self-concept must die away - an ego death, if you like. Rarely, if ever, is the new us apparent before the old has passed, so we can go through a death-like transition, and if that is so, then it can be interesting to explore the DABDA model.

Denial - My own experience was of too many years being in denial that I was over the Church, that its values did not fit with mine, that its fear-based motivation was not my values, that I could not abide an organisation that felt its members so infantile that they could not countenance the truth and needed censors, etc., etc.. This stage was maintained by numerous fears: raising the children without the Church, would my marriage survive, the big bad meaningless world out there, filled with immoral people, etc.

Then I started to get angry. Many people make the mistake of thinking that 'acting-out' anger is the only form. 'Nice' Mormons of course do not 'do anger', certainly not the explicit form. The other, less known form is acting-in anger, whose common faces are addictive behaviours and depression. Does this explain the high levels of depressed LDS? I had my own range of adrenilin producing behaviours to overcome the sence of deadness that the acting-in produced.

Bargaining can take many forms. In this context I would see initially the ways people create weird rationales so that they can stay a member, thereby never incurring the disapproval of family members and acquaintances.

Depression is when the full impact hits and hits hard. The black meaningless stage, frequently accompanied by crying can be in this stage. This is often where the covert depression becomes full blown. In our failure to understand this phase and its significance in the healing/rebirth cycle, we can see it as just another 'disease' to be medicated away and rushed through as fast as possible.

And finally acceptance arrives. The old identity is dead, and the realisation of life after Mormonism starts to distil and like a new plant we start strong fresh growth, finding joy and meaning in all sorts of unexpected places.

One of the joys of this place for me, that I have not seen many others discuss, is that I find some of the most comfortable and trustworthy, real people to be around are others in that post-religous stage. And I am not just speaking of Mormons. I have made great ex-Seventh Day Adventists who are in this stage and we connect powerfully. Many are deeply spiritual (as in life-loving and believing in being all that they might) and quite intelligent people.

They carry few if any masks, have a comfort with themselves that is like a breath of fresh air after the mask-intensive territory that is Mormonism. Unlike Mormons, this group knows they are far from perfect, but because they are authentic, their dealings on the outside are reflective of their inner integrity, so their word is their bond. They have made peace with their 'shadow', rather than denying its existence. These, I find, are now 'my people' and I can discover them in all sorts of places and make a quite deep connection rather rapidly. I certainly don't need the forced Brother or Sister to explore our shared human experience.

The above helped me, and I would be interested to see if it resonates with others.

[Jeff_Ricks]

One of the joys of this place for me, that I have not seen many others discuss, is that I find some of the most comfortable and trustworthy, real people to be around are others in that post-religous stage. And I am not just speaking of Mormons. I have made great ex-Seventh Day Adventists who are in this stage and we connect powerfully. Many are deeply spiritual (as in life-loving and believing in being all that they might) and quite intelligent people.

They carry few if any masks, have a comfort with themselves that is like a breath of fresh air after the mask-intensive territory that is Mormonism. Unlike Mormons, this group knows they are far from perfect, but because they are authentic, their dealings on the outside are reflective of their inner integrity, so their word is their bond. They have made peace with their 'shadow', rather than denying its existence. These, I find, are now 'my people' and I can discover them in all sorts of places and make a quite deep connection rather rapidly. I certainly don't need the forced Brother or Sister to explore our shared human experience.

The above helped me, and I would be interested to see if it resonates with others.

I very much enjoy reading your posts. The above has been my experience too and is one of the reasons I started this website, organization and forum.

Keep posting!

Jeff

[Born Free]

I very much enjoy reading your posts. The above has been my experience too and is one of the reasons I started this website, organization and forum.

Keep posting!

Jeff

Jeff,

I have developed a support website myself, so I have some idea of the effort involved. I applaud your vision, and commitment to easing the transition for those that are ready to move; to, in effect, play a humble part in the facilitating the un-damning of some people. And, might I add, the raw effort, to the objects of the applause!

A few years back I met with Simon Southerton in Canberra and over a very long meal, we created the room to unpack some of the damage done. I understand Colin has contacted you re getting an Australian contact point for those leaving 'Zion' here, so I look forward to many productive dealings and communications over shared passions.

[bob mccue]

I like the implicit analogy between how females are conditioned by society in general and how Mormons are conditioned.

This reminds me of several things.

First, the stages of grief analysis. Google that term. There are lots of good web articles dealing with it.

Second, the stages of faith analysis from a book by that name written by James Fowler. See http://mccue.cc/bob/documents/out%20of%20my%20faith.pdf starting at page 58 for a summary.

Third, the "mask" metaphor from Joseph Campbell and William Yeats. See the essay just noted starting at page 15.

All the best,

bob

[free thinker]

Many years ago I came across the idea that Elizabeth Kubler-Ross' stages of death and dying model can be applied to personal growth. For those unfamiliar, KR proposed back in the 70s that the dying person goes through steps covered by the acronym DABDA:

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

She argued that they do not necessarily have to be experienced in that order. Like most models, it is not necessarily perfect, but can be useful.

The application of the model to personal growth possibly needs some explanation. If we have a particular view of ourselves, in the transition to becoming more of who we might be, the old self-concept must die away - an ego death, if you like. Rarely, if ever, is the new us apparent before the old has passed, so we can go through a death-like transition, and if that is so, then it can be interesting to explore the DABDA model.

Denial - My own experience was of too many years being in denial that I was over the Church, that its values did not fit with mine, that its fear-based motivation was not my values, that I could not abide an organisation that felt its members so infantile that they could not countenance the truth and needed censors, etc., etc.. This stage was maintained by numerous fears: raising the children without the Church, would my marriage survive, the big bad meaningless world out there, filled with immoral people, etc.

Then I started to get angry. Many people make the mistake of thinking that 'acting-out' anger is the only form. 'Nice' Mormons of course do not 'do anger', certainly not the explicit form. The other, less known form is acting-in anger, whose common faces are addictive behaviours and depression. Does this explain the high levels of depressed LDS? I had my own range of adrenilin producing behaviours to overcome the sence of deadness that the acting-in produced.

Bargaining can take many forms. In this context I would see initially the ways people create weird rationales so that they can stay a member, thereby never incurring the disapproval of family members and acquaintances.

Depression is when the full impact hits and hits hard. The black meaningless stage, frequently accompanied by crying can be in this stage. This is often where the covert depression becomes full blown. In our failure to understand this phase and its significance in the healing/rebirth cycle, we can see it as just another 'disease' to be medicated away and rushed through as fast as possible.

And finally acceptance arrives. The old identity is dead, and the realisation of life after Mormonism starts to distil and like a new plant we start strong fresh growth, finding joy and meaning in all sorts of unexpected places.

One of the joys of this place for me, that I have not seen many others discuss, is that I find some of the most comfortable and trustworthy, real people to be around are others in that post-religous stage. And I am not just speaking of Mormons. I have made great ex-Seventh Day Adventists who are in this stage and we connect powerfully. Many are deeply spiritual (as in life-loving and believing in being all that they might) and quite intelligent people.

They carry few if any masks, have a comfort with themselves that is like a breath of fresh air after the mask-intensive territory that is Mormonism. Unlike Mormons, this group knows they are far from perfect, but because they are authentic, their dealings on the outside are reflective of their inner integrity, so their word is their bond. They have made peace with their 'shadow', rather than denying its existence. These, I find, are now 'my people' and I can discover them in all sorts of places and make a quite deep connection rather rapidly. I certainly don't need the forced Brother or Sister to explore our shared human experience.

The above helped me, and I would be interested to see if it resonates with others.

I enjoyed your post.

What strikes me the most, and the thing I am having a hard time with is ,the irony of the mormon faith. When I was involved, I thought I was growing. I really wasn't. My circle of friends and experiences was getting smaller as I stayed involved. Now I am out, and my life seems to be expanding. I enjoy people more, am less judgemental, ( including judgeing myself) and more forgiving. I just dont get it. None of the things I was told would happen have happened. I wake each day and just savor life now. Especially sundays!!

Free Thinker

[Jeff_Ricks]

Jeff,

I have developed a support website myself, so I have some idea of the effort involved. I applaud your vision, and commitment to easing the transition for those that are ready to move; to, in effect, play a humble part in the facilitating the un-damning of some people. And, might I add, the raw effort, to the objects of the applause!

A few years back I met with Simon Southerton in Canberra and over a very long meal, we created the room to unpack some of the damage done. I understand Colin has contacted you re getting an Australian contact point for those leaving 'Zion' here, so I look forward to many productive dealings and communications over shared passions.


I just noticed your post this morning. Somehow I missed it until now. I'd like you to send me a link to your website. I'd like to take a look. And yes, Colin has said that he'd like to start a Post-Mormon group in Australia, so we’ll soon have his group listed on the website. Doe he live in your area? And are you both anywhere near where Simon Southerton lives?

Incidentally, last night Simon Spoke here at Utah State University and drew quite a crowd. We booked a room that would hold 110 people but they moved us across the hall to an auditorium because so many people showed up! There was one estimate that we had 300 people show up. It was certainly 200 to 250 at least. While I’m sure there were Mormons in the crowd they kept quiet and behaved themselved. Simon and his publisher who was with him were both very pleased with the turnout.

Jeff

[Born Free]

I just noticed your post this morning. Somehow I missed it until now. I'd like you to send me a link to your website. I'd like to take a look. And yes, Colin has said that he'd like to start a Post-Mormon group in Australia, so we’ll soon have his group listed on the website. Doe he live in your area? And are you both anywhere near where Simon Southerton lives?

Jeff

Jeff,

Colin and I both live in the same suburb of Brisbane, teh capitol of Queensland, which is the north-eastern state of Australia. We are in regular contact, and keen to do more here to develop some sort of support structure for those who are ready to leave.

Simon used to be a Bishop here, and it was while he was here that he and his family decided the Church was not for them. He has since moved to our nation's capitol, Canberra, where I caught up with him, whilst there on a business trip. Canberra is south west of Sydney, so about 700 miles south, south west of Brisbane.

Daryl

[formermormon]

Sorry if I'm coming late to this discussion - but I wanted to comment on the GOOD I got from mormonism. It took me quite a while to realize that there was some - and attribute it properly.

1. Growning up in the church, I had a generalized sense that the community had responsibility for each other. If someone was sick, you would bring them food, if a ward member needed help with their yard, somebody would pitch in. There was a generalized sense of helpfulness.

Frankly, I wish more of our (American) culture reflected that sense of common good - helping each other out, rather than the pervasive self-centeredness of our current political-cultural climate.

2. Men can be sensitive and emotional. I grew up with the idea that masculinity didn't preclude public crying and expression of love of family and others. If you think about it, that is remarkable. Sure, it was proscribed, but in general, I found mormon men to be---gentle. Maybe it was more of a passive-aggression, but still, I think mormon men are allowed to be more emotional and other-centered.

3. Mormons are in general honest, polite, trustworthy, hard-working (I'm not talking about the leadership here -obviously). I still value those things.

4. Girl's camp. I have extremely fond memories of our beautiful camp on an alpine lake - it was a great way to spend a few summer weeks.

5. I'm thankful that my grandfather and other older relatives honestly believe in an afterlife and that they will see their loved ones when they die, etc. Sure, this could come from any number of other belief systems, but I know it was/is comforting to them, even if I don't believe any of it.

6. I have better empathy for 2nd wave feminists, since I grew up in Utah of the 80's, which is pretty similar to the U.S. of the 50's. I feel my freedoms so much deeper because of it.

7. I have better insight into dogmatism, Lakoff's "strict-father morality", the religious right, tyranny of the majority, theocracy, etc. than I ever could have had from a book.

[Born Free]

Peter_Mary,

I just revisited this thread after doing the sort by Views exercise.

You posted this just before Christmas last year, and then I started the Stages thing about March.

It is interesting to see the similarities.

I think what has come out of the Stages Project is a better understanding of the potholes along the way that one can get bogged in, and how many of those there are.

I have printed out a copy of PM's initial post to compare it more closely with the Stages porcess developed.

Daryl

[why me]

What is a postmormon identity and what exactly does it mean to be a postmormon? What is the difference between a mormon identity and a postmormon identity. Postmormon seems to signify a going beyond Mormonism. There isn't a lose of a mormon identity but rather the mormon experience is put into a different construct. Perhaps it is also a deconstruction of a mormon identity but not a elimination of the mormon identity. To be postmormon seems to be something related to an 'after' experience. It is an embrass of the 'afterlife' of a former identity. I would hope that a postmormon identity goes beyond bitterness and regret and seeks wisdom from the past life and fulfillment in the afterlife. By afterlife, I am not referring to death as such where the spirit leaves the body but to the body leaving a former identity to embrass a new life--something like a snail leaving its former shell because of it inadequate size and seeking a much more roomier shell where more growth and comfort are possible both in the physical realm and in the mental realm. And if what I am writing as any validity, then this should be happening to some extent in our lives and our posts will need to reflect such new discoveries and moments of being. A mormon identity is an identity which embrasses the mormon frame. I can't say that it is a bad frame if it works for a person involved but what frame does a postmormon frame embrass...where is the postmormon center or foundation for building an after-mormon life? And are our posts reflecting a healthy postmormon life? These are just some thoughts that I am having while sitting in a store using their free internet access. Have a good day out there in cyberland... :)

[silverfox]

.where is the postmormon center or foundation for building an after-mormon life? And are our posts reflecting a healthy postmormon life? These are just some thoughts that I am having while sitting in a store using their free internet access. Have a good day out there in cyberland... :)

What I find so sweet and educating and refreshing is that each postmormon "center" is INDIVIDUALIZED. It's not like postmos belong to a big corp or organization that has rules, guidelines, etc, etc, etc. For each of us the experiences and stages are individualized. We create them ourselves. We are in control...we are the drivers and responsible for our destinies. Frightening and new and sometimes challenging but, IMHO, it is freeing and wonderful and educating.

I don't think that because some of those experiences, emotions, etc are negative that it means it is unhealthy. I think as Post mos negative experiences/emotions can be productive and positive IF we learn to embrace the opportunity to learn from them and grow from them.

I never dreamed how happy I could be as a Post Mo. It is amazing to own that responsibility. Life is wonderful. I only wish I had figured this all out decades ago. sigh.