Departing Moism - Stage 2 - Niggling suspicions [Archive]

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Born Free

20th March 2005, 06:25 AM

miss taken

20th March 2005, 08:37 AM

What niggles attacked you at stage 2?

Was Spencer Kimball infallible? Did he have ideas and values that I did not agree with? Was Joseph Smith inspired of God or a conman? Were the church giving the whole story of it's history? Were they overly biased?
Are Mormons really elite? Are they really any better than those outside of the LDS faith? Was polygamy really inspired of God? Would God really stop people of colour from holding the priesthood? Do priesthood holders really have unquestionable authority from God? Does who baptises you really matter? Was the BOM God's or Joseph's work? Was the Book of Abraham a common piece of funery? papyrus or really inspired writings? Did Brigham Young really mean it when he said slavery was Okay? Were Benson's political idealogies appropriate for a 'prophet' of God? Was Paul H. Dunn too good to be true? Are the GA's fake? What do they REALLY feel?
Why is the church like a giant corporation? Why are the GA's always business men or rich? What is the church hiding? Why did it have shares in Coca-cola yet tell us not to drink the stuff? Do you really have to be married to get to the celestial kingdom? Is polygamy really practiced in the CK? Do people that reject the gospel really go to a lower kingdom? Is there really no progression between the kingdoms? Are women really responsible for the fall of man? Should women really follow God through their husband? (There are loads more but all I can think of at present)

What form did they take?

Continued doubts that were pushed to the back of the mind, yet also confronted on occassion.

How old were you at the time?

Started almost as soon as I began activity in the church

What encouraged you to pursue your concerns?

A desire to hear both sides of the story, both inside and outside of the church.
Greater desire to search for authenticity in myself and the church as I matured.

What acted to hinder that pursuit?

Fear, fear, fear, fear, fear.

Did they escalate over time?

YES

How long did you experience niggles before you went into stage 3 - Active denial, and did you keep repeating that cycle?

Had niggles for 16 years, can remember feeling at college that I wasn't ready to leave the church, because I had nothing to replace it with. Reading Van Wagoner's Book on Mormon Polygamy written by a mormon himself, and so not ANTI, was the straw that broke the camel's back. I could deny no longer.

What was the impact upon you emotionally?

Devastating, I became pretty much suicidal, because I thought, really thought I was going to the devil.
Felt in a 'catch 22' damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Tried to be rational, and see God as loving, and wanting me to get through this, rather than condemning me into the hands of the 'devil'.

Once I took off my garments and made the break, I became happy again. Many LDS members that saw me around commented on how happy and vibrant I was now looking.

I felt as if life was just beginning, and it was SO wonderful (still is)
Mary

bigeddy

20th March 2005, 01:06 PM

(So okay, okay. Drop the first part and keep the subtitle)

As I read the posts in these two threads (Stages of post-mormonism, and this one) I get even more excited about the need for a good book detailing the stories we all hear from one another. I think what a help it would have been to me to have such a handbook when I was questioning. If we keep it balanced and oriented toward growth not anti-ism, it could be invaluable for those who it is my agenda to help.

Anyway, as to the questions:

What niggles attacked you at stage 2?

As I thought long on this one it hit me that I had had many doctrinal nigglers but they never bothered me. I easily filed them in what I always called "The file folder in the back of my mind." Here I kept all such questions believing that time and further study would gradually answer them all. THere were other devices that kept these nigglers from being serious. I will deal with that in a moment. However, I realized that there were some exceptions that became the real nigglers. These were (in the order they attacked me):

- What is love and how does a God who is the embodiment of love behave? I saw from the very beginning so much that defied love in the doctrines of the church and the behavior of leaders.

- I did not understand the atonement. It never made sense to me. Why would a god, whose goal for us was growth, demand that if we made a mistake and then learned because of it, still have a need to slap someone around as punishment (the sinner or a surogate Jesus). I remember cutting up shotgun shells for the powder and the primer. We would have all kinds of fun with the powder and we would hit the primers with a hammer and get a kick out of the explosion. I hit a primer one day while my brother, Bill, was standing about 30 feet away. He started screaming and his leg was bleeding. A piece of shrapnel was buried in his leg. My mother took him to the hospital. While she was gone I imagined all the punishment that would come my way. Even more powerfully, I felt so bad for Bill. My remorse at hurting him was far greater than any punishment could inflict. I was shocked when, upon returning, home, my mom just hugged me. She knew that I had learned a valuable lesson and needed not to slap me around in any way. Is god not that intelligent (were is the love)?

- Leaders! The whole inspiration thing became my biggest niggler. This one started on my mission. It became obvious to me that my mission was about aiding other people in a growth process. I believed, at that time, that becoming momo would aid a person. But, I saw many other things that aided by leading to a baptism or helping in some other way, i.e. we were out tracting and saw some Japanese citizens pushing a car. We helped them and when my companion wanted to use this to "convert" them, I felt an inner confusion. I would not participate. I wanted to help them and let it go at that. To do otherwise felt like a manipulation at that point because they did not want our message (translated they were not ready for that kind of help, yet). I met a little deaf girl on a train and wrote a message to her in Japanese. She was so delighted and wrote her address. We visited and I told my companion that I would not use my love for this wonderful little girl who was so brave, to try to convert her family. They would see our nametags and if they asked, fine, I would teach. I told him we would not mention it otherwise. I just wanted to delight in this brave little girl and help her delight in herself. My mission president was a jerk in many ways. He was about the dimmest bulb on the tree. I remember taking on the whole mission during a Zone Leader's conference in the mission home. It was clear to me that what burned in his bosom was not what burned in mine (the love question).

This one continued to niggle. Many, many actions and statements by "inspired' leaders appalled me. I began to feel a drive to deal with this one. The old, "Its the people not the church, did not cut it for me when a prime tenet remained that we have inspired leaders. Either they are inspired or they are not and if it was up to me to pick and choose when they were inspired and when they weren't, why did I need them? (the infallable prophet thing is vital here. If the prophet ever, ever, ever, was wrong then I had to deal with it and had to use my inspiration to detect it--so why did I need him?)

When I was the CES coordinator in a large chunk of Florida I had a startling revelation as I was driving to a meeting (what else). THis was the cement of the niggler. It hit me that the biggest opposition I had in doing my job was not from satan or outside the church it was from "inspired" leaders. They were stupid, did wicked things that hurt people I loved, lied to me, got in my way inceasantly while I was trying to help members, held to notions (and used the notions in leading the saints) that I knew were not only uninspired but in direct contradiction to the policies of the church and the scriptures.

- What the hell is this temple thng and the power of the recommend? The ceremony is crap and the way the recommend is used not only defies love but is often cruel and ungodly. If these (temple shit) represents the mysteries of godliness then it was a totally different god than the one who burned my bosom. THis was god motivated by a lust for power and control, not love.

What form did they take?

My nigglers were felt with much initial confusion followed by anger. I was confused because, in a perfect church, they should not be happening. The anger came as I saw that the foundations of my niggles were the source of great pain to people I loved. (I was associated with a wonderful sister in Florida. She was legally blind, raising 4 children alone with little money and still taught seminary, was the Relief Society pres, and continued to do much good. There was a man in the ward whose wife was dying of a terminal illness. THe two of them began to behave in a truly loving way toward each other and found in each other some support for the terribly hard things they were doing. His wife knew of their relationship and took joy in the fact that they could be happy. The church leaders found it necessary to excommunicate them, embarrass them and never honor the humanity in their hearts. A year later (after they married following the death of his wife) they were rebaptized and became fully active. Why did they need to suffer the year of torture and humiliation. If they sinned then they were rebaptized with the "fruits of their sin" still intact, if their love and marriage was a sin, why did they not have to give it up as part of the repentance process? )

How old were you at the time?

These nigglers started shortly after I reentered the church at 19. They continued (held back at times by the devices mentioned below) until I left the church at age 38.

What encouraged you to pursue your concerns?

I kept seeing in the behavior of the leaders things that not only did not allay my niggles but increased and cemented them.

What acted to hinder that pursuit?

As I thought about this one I realized that the church intentionally or out of fear uses what I now call anti-niggle devices to quell the questioning. I started listing them under headings and subheadings and soon saw that almost all of them fell under one heading: Evade the question. I ended up with the following:

Evade the question.
- Point to the good the church does despite the problems or questions in my mind.
- (an associated one) "Look at all the good people who do believe. They are as smart as you are and they still believe.'
- "Its the members who are imperfect, the church is perfect."
- I attended a training session for leaders who may be questioned by the media. THey (the church officials) taught us to avoid questions. The statement was "don't answer the question they asked, answer the question you wish they would have asked".
- IF ALL ELSE FAILS, ATTACK THE QUESTIONER
1 "You're just trying to justify a desire to sin. Your question is not serious, you just want to do something wicked."
2 Take the higher ground, be condescending: "You just are not worthy enough to have that revealed to you." When I was in the mission home we attended a session in the SL Temple and then went upstairs to the solemn assembly room and we were told a GA would come and, since we were still in the temple, we could talk all about it and ask all the questions we wanted. Guess who showed up--Gordo! We asked away. He treated us like we were stupid, know nothings for even asking--BUT he offered not a single answer to a serious question. (Now I realize it was because he did not have any answers--there aren't any.)
At that time I fell for the device and assumed that he would not share the answers because we were not worthy or ready to receive them. He was on the higher ground and we would have to work long and hard to get where he was (anger invoking bullshit).
3 (similarly) Return to a-priori assumptions: "THe church is perfect so there must be something wrong with you."

- Confess to not knowing but bear testimony to some other unrelated thing.
- "All things are not revealed yet."
- Turn to FARMS (read, bogus scholarship)
- AND if all else truly fails--blame someone else. (Mountain Meadows)

Did they escalate over time?

They did as more and more examples of unloving, uninspired leadership ht the fan.

Ed

Born Free

20th March 2005, 10:51 PM

What niggles attacked you at stage 2?

I never got the answers to prayer promised during teenage years. Looking back, I probably assumed this was because I was unworthy in some way, rather than seeing it as a failure of the promise.

Why am I so special (Temple, Priesthood, Patriarchal Blessing etc)? I deeply suspected this elitism, with service hooks attached and loads of obligations.

Study highlighted major glitches in operational deployment of several areas of Church teaching: eg the Blacks and the Priesthood policy – like discovering people have black ancestry when they do genealogy, after the PH failed to detect it.

Ineptness at handing sexual and power abuses, underpinned by wilful ignorance.

Early in marriage, my wife shared that when she was single her Bishop had made inappropriate approaches to her, in the course of disciplinary interviews, and then after being rebuffed, treated her harshly.

Later, a relative by marriage was recipient of very forceful inappropriate intimate advances during interviews with her Branch President after confessing a sexual impropriety. Shortly after, his name was put forth in conference to be sustained as the new District President, which several people challenged. He and his family left the district in a hurry, and resurfaced in a new area, devoid of his embarrassing history and repeated the behaviour.

I saw the power abuse so common among Priesthood leaders, and increasingly came to the conclusion that was nothing like I believed true leadership looked like.

As a general pattern, I discovered the most gung-ho members were the most wounded on a personal level, and completely resistant to the idea that they needed assistance.

My discomfort accelerated around what some members were convinced were spiritual experiences and Divine intervention. I could see much, much more down to earth reasons.

Scattered through this I found “the Saints” as a group, increasingly were not people whose company I enjoyed. I found many narrowly read, if at all; fear-based; philosophically ignorant.

Sexually - happily ignorant and fear-based.

What form did they take?

I see logical, social, doctrinal niggles regarding:
Power abuses
Mental laziness
Misogyny
Sexual ultra-conservativism

How old were you at the time?

My disquiet started in my teens in fleeting flashes, accelerated during my immediate post-school, pre-marriage years. It probably went a bit quiet in the early marriage years, then accelerated in late 20s to early 30s. I left at 37.

What encouraged you to pursue your concerns?
Nothing external at all encouraged me to think critically and to research my concerns more widely.

What acted to hinder that pursuit?
Family forces, backed by Church forces.

Like Ed, I had a place where I noted the “pieces that did not fit”, but tended to simply throw things there, to get them out of the way, rather than for active review. I am now convinced that if I had focused for even a brief period upon all the “misfit pieces”, that I would have seen the problematic extent and nature of it all much earlier. So you might say that I hindered myself, by not periodically reviewing.

I think that whilst I did not make an explicit decision about the material, in the background my mind was noting the accumulation, and progressively disengaging me from the Church informally. I was weighting its position less and less in my decisions. I can see in hindsight that that was a form of drifting; of active inactivity.

Did they escalate over time?
Yes. As I matured, read more widely, developed better thinking skills, built up a broader experience base, my discomfort level rose progressively.

How long did you experience niggles before you went into stage 3 - Active denial, and did you keep repeating that cycle?

For me, discomfort was there from teenage years, peaked when I left home and during National Service (compulsory Military Service), got stuffed down (Stage 3) during early marriage and early parenthood years, and then started to come up again with a vengeance in late 20s and early 30s.

I suspect that the uncertainty of marriage and parenthood do throw many people back onto conservative scripts. Certainly that was what I/we did.

What was the impact upon you emotionally?
I was not conscious of it at the time, but I believe that I progressively disassociated, and now believe that I developed dysthymia (low grade, persistent depression for the uninitiated) as a teenager as a consequence of the combination of family and Church dynamics and my inability to see a way out.
I believe that I concluded that it was all too hard to work out, and suspect that I likely used sex to self-medicate the resultant flatness.

Daryl

mindbender

21st March 2005, 12:55 AM

Phase 2 of the departing model is niggling suspicions or doubts.

(The whole Draft Model thus far is at http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/showthread.php?t=288&page=2)

Ed and I are keen to see who would be interested to flesh out our (all our) understanding of the process of leaving, so propose to initiate a series of threads to elicit more information on each stage.

In time I suspect we might add some subsets to Stage 1 - Blissful Ignorance, but we can come back to that later.

Ed has suggested several of the following for stage 2, and I have added some:

What niggles attacked you at stage 2?

What form did they take?

How old were you at the time?

What encouraged you to pursue your concerns?

What acted to hinder that pursuit?

Did they escalate over time?

How long did you experience niggles before you went into stage 3 - Active denial, and did you keep repeating that cycle?

What was the impact upon you emotionally?

We are looking to compare responses to this question to see what patterns emerge, so please cut and paste each of the questions, followed by your response/s, so that everyones responses remain in the same sequence.

DarylThe first problems i had with moism was stress , no matter how hard i worked i could never feel peace , i began to suffer with constant angina , when i took the garments off the stress went away some , but then i felt guilt , so for years the garments where on and off , in the end it became a sort of phychotic illness , finaly i cried out to God in despair , I JUST CAN,T DO THIS ,, after that i began to be able to let go , the other problem was depression and constant thoughts of imorality , i felt that belief in plural marriage was kind of affecting me badly , then i went to a bookshop and bought a book on curses and blessings by a pentocostal author , i read the book and prayed about it and felt all the stress and depression begin to leave ,
after that i decided there was something wrong with moism so went to see my Bishop and told him i was going to leave , he just said , have you got your temple recomend , so i gave him that , then he said , you realize what this means , you will loose your temple covenant and marriage ect , i said yes . i went outside and told my wife I was leaving , she burst into tears , the people gathered and asked whats wrong , she said my husband is leaving the church , after that i became the most disliked person in town .
i visited several churches looking for new faith but never liked any of them , i was all alone and there was no internet or anybody to talk to , so i went to talk to a shrink , who filled me with pills , but the stress was to much so i had a breakdown , my mind was permanently damaged and i could never be free from constant headaches after this , eventually i went back to church and spent another 15 years sitting on the pew , at the start i was like a ghost , but things slowly got better and i was excepted again , finaly i realized that even if it was true it would not save me because i had no faith in how it worked , i was living in a false reality , so six months ago i have started the who;e process again , now my wife of 26 happy years is threatening divorce because i am leaving , i have told her this time , if you love the church more than me , the its your choice , but i think we will work it out ...... the stress is gone now and i am free

silverfox

21st March 2005, 07:47 AM

I don't feel I have anything to contribute right now to this thread. But I want to note that I am enjoying it very much.

elder_nomo

21st March 2005, 10:21 PM

i suppose i had a few niggling suspicions as soon as i learned there was more to the church than the missionaries had told me. polygamy, priesthood for blacks, the idea that the 'one true church' could only possibly reach a tiny fraction of earth's population.

but i had a testimony. a burning bosom. [actually, for me, it was more of a tingle than a burn]. so these things were brushed aside and taken on faith.

i think the first niggling suspicion that 'stuck' was after my first visit to a temple. i thought "whoa....what the hell just happened here??? - what did i get myself into???"

peter_mary

21st March 2005, 11:22 PM

Born Free

21st March 2005, 11:34 PM

So what does it mean if you pray and have a "niggling in your bosom?" I guess I was hosed right from the start...

:D

Paul

So does that mean the role of the Church in 'faith-promotion' is to "pluck out any lingering niggling in your bosom"? :rolleyes:

Daryl

peter_mary

23rd March 2005, 09:19 AM

Sorry I've been so negligent of this endeavor...I really do want to play. So here we go.

What niggles attacked you at stage 2?
What form did they take?

The Stage 2 niggles were pretty deep, bordering on the subconscious for me, and I would have to say that I fought them pretty hard. I was very disturbed about the recognition that from the standpoint of the Gospel, my family of origin would get no "points" for being some of the most charitable, loving, non-judgemental people I had ever met, but who were all non-members. Many were the times that I or my children would hear that there were only two Churches; the Church of God (which was understood to be the Mormon Church) or the church of the Devil. The Church was condemning my family to hell, and there was nothing I could do about it, because they were already spiritually developed according to their own traditions (mainstream Protestant), and sufficiently informed about Mormonism to know that they were not interested. It was terribly psychologically disturbing to me, but I fought it.

I was also very disturbed about the tithing issue. During those first few years out of college, when I was trying to buy a house, requiring a second car so both my wife and I could drive to work on different schedules, trying to furnish our house, trying to provide for three children (at the time), etc., I found that I couldn't make the money stretch. So I made an executive decision to pay on the net instead of the gross so I could at least only bounce checks on rare occassions rather than regularly. When tithing settlement came, I was shamed for having made a choice that "robbed God." Again, I was ripped up psychologically in that I couldn't make sense out of a God whose Church was rich beyond comprehension, demanding the money that I needed so I could put shoes on my kids. I knew I wasn't living lavishly, and it really was distressing.

Another distressful episode was when Ezra Taft Benson came out with his "Mothers Come Home" talk. My poor wife was in the middle of her Masters Degree, we were going deeply in debt to pay for both of our educations, and she KNEW that her strengths were not domestic. Further, we had been so conscientious about balancing our time and attention so that our kids almost always had a parent at home, minimizing the child care to 15 hours a week or less. It made no sense to me that we couldn't work out a reasonable manner of living to ensure the spiritual and temporal needs of our children were met, while at the same time allowing my wife to pursue her personal strengths and interests. We stewed over that one for years.

But we fought it, believing that it was our faith that was the problem, not the Church edicts.

How old were you at the time?

This period of struggling was primarily between the ages of 26 and 32.

What encouraged you to pursue your concerns?

We didn't pursue these concerns...they pursued us. These were like mad dogs snapping at our heals, and we were running to keep ahead of them. Especially for me, there was a great deal of existential fear that resulted from this period of angst, because I knew that I couldn't live up to the expectations imposed in any of these areas, and subsequently, I stood to be judged negatively when I had to watch that great "video tape" of my life with Jesus after I died. Oh goody...couldn't hardly wait for THAT one...

What acted to hinder that pursuit?

As I said, I was not pursuing, I was being pursued!

Did they escalate over time?

The anxiety over all of these issues did in fact build over time. There is no escape except complete surrender, and I lacked the faith to do that. Perhaps that could be considered a weakness on my part, and had I possessed sufficient faith, I wouldn't be here now. But I also believed strongly that God had given me a brain for a reason, and by golly, I could figure this out. The harder I tried, the more I failed, and the greater the anxiety became.

How long did you experience niggles before you went into stage 3 - Active denial, and did you keep repeating that cycle?

There really was very little cycling in and out of this period of angst. It was slowly building, and I was actively resisting it, and doing such a fine job that I continued to be "blessed" with leadership callings in the Church that kept me busy enough and focused enough that the anxiety stayed deep in my subconscious and kept me from even recognizing the source. All I knew was that I felt trapped, unhappy, and inadequate but I had no idea why.

What was the impact upon you emotionally?

I lived in a heightened state of agitation, was quick to snap at my kids, put on a lot of weight (which has been hard pressed to come off, by the way...damn...), and lived in real fear of death.

So, that's Stage 2, as far as I can recollect.

Paul

silverfox

23rd March 2005, 09:53 AM

What encouraged you to pursue your concerns?

We didn't pursue these concerns...they pursued us. These were like mad dogs snapping at our heals, and we were running to keep ahead of them. Especially for me, there was a great deal of existential fear that resulted from this period of angst, because I knew that I couldn't live up to the expectations imposed in any of these areas, and subsequently, I stood to be judged negatively when I had to watch that great "video tape" of my life with Jesus after I died. Oh goody...couldn't hardly wait for THAT one...

What acted to hinder that pursuit?

As I said, I was not pursuing, I was being pursued!

Paul

This is KEY, IMO. Trying to squelch the concerns was IMPOSSIBLE for me. No matter how hard I tried and believe me I spent YEARS and YEARS trying! I didn't WANT to 'pursue' them. I wanted to be left alone in my comfort zone. I WANTED to be the happy little Mo mommy I was supposed to be. But as Paul stated, the concerns pursued me.

Thanks for capturing this in words, Paul. I am having a hard time wording what I want my responses would be. So although I haven't responded in detail yet I have a great interest in these threads and others' responses. I find it all quite amazing.

formermormon

23rd March 2005, 11:42 AM

OK, maybe I'm the only one here, but I grew up in the church, my great-great-great grandmother was married to Joseph Smith AND Brigham Young, so the roots are DEEP. BUT, somehow, in spite of the expectations and culture, the teachings always seemed odd to me. I tried to blend in and "feel the spirit", but it never really made sense to me.

As a kid, the more I heard about bible or BOM stories, the more I questioned - I mean Noah's Ark? Come on? EVERY animal? And why would a loving God kill everyone else on the planet?

I very early on got the message that much needed questioning, and that questioning was BAD. I thought that memorization if the "Articles of Faith" in late Primary was pointless and rote - the Mia Maids lessons about not wanting to be a "chewed piece of gum" seemed absurd and funny.

Basically, before I even got to a more adult stage of questioning doctrine or history, most of the church stuff was already failing to connect with me. I swear, I felt like an outsider the whole time.

As I got older, the sexism and racism and authoritarianism deeply offended me. I just could not see how a loving God could possibly want things structured that way... and if HE (male, of course) really wanted it that way, well, I only had the few years of life on earth to leave as a free person before going on to "the afterlife" where I'd be ruled by this tyrant God, so in the meantime, F___ him!

As I grew up and developed more educated and sophisticated critiques, I realized that it was past time to break off my association for good - I did it officially in my late 20's.

nate

23rd March 2005, 09:47 PM

What niggles attacked you at stage 2?

Why am I instructed, in the "For The Strength of Youth" pamphlet/teen-Mo guidebook, to only build relationships with people of similar or higher moral character? Didn't Christ spend most of his time with hookers and beggars? Why "or higher"? If I befriend someone of higher moral character, won't he be breaking this guideline?

Why can't I have long hair and a beard and go to the temple? Didn't Jesus have long hair and a beard? If it was due to the "style of his times", what's wrong with me being in style? Tattoos and piercings are in style, y'know...in our times.

If people are donating fast offerings out of the goodness of their hearts, then why wouldn't they remember to stick it in with their tithing? Why do I have to go door to door and remind them?

Why am I helping my mother pick up free food at the Church Food Bank? Shouldn't she maybe just buy food before paying tithing? Why is my Dad's Christmas bonus a blessing because he paid tithing; isn't it because he works really hard?

What the heck is wrong with my older brother? Why do we pray for him every night when he's one of the nicest ones? Is he that evil just because he smokes, cause we pray for him ALOT!? If he can't get into heaven, could that one lady, Mother Teresa? She's was awesome, but she wasn't Mormon; which makes no sense.

Wait a minute! I know my Mom is NEVER going to be happy unless ALL of us are in heaven with her. How would THAT be heaven for her, if one of us doesn't make it? Sure as hell won't be heaven to me if I have to go down to some lower, not-so-nice kingdom just to visit my brother! It doesn't work! It make NO sense!

Ok, now I feel weird! I thought we were going to witness the dedication of a temple, not swing handerchiefs over our heads in circles and chant! I'm actually chanting! And I should DEFINITELY be feeling the spirit at a temple dedication; instead I feel weird... I feel sick.

What form did they take?

Questions that nobody could answer to my satisfaction.

How old were you at the time?

12-17

What encouraged you to pursue your concerns?

The desire for satisfaction. The need to believe in something 100% before committing 100% of my life to it.

What acted to hinder that pursuit?

Love for my mother and the unyeilding desire to see her happy.

Fear that I would be the cause of her grief.

Did they escalate over time?

YES

How long did you experience niggles before you went into stage 3 - Active denial, and did you keep repeating that cycle?

I was playing hop-scotch with stages 2 and 3 for 4-5 years; to the point where I was virtually living in both stages at the same time.

What was the impact upon you emotionally?

Constant inner conflict that increasingly got louder and louder and louder, and much more difficult to hide. I was desparate to find something that would make it stop. I told myself church would make it stop, but it only turned up the volume; yet I kept trying. I told myself the church was BS, but it only caused me to feel deep fear and shame; yet I kept trying.

miss taken

24th March 2005, 12:42 AM

Born Free

24th March 2005, 01:14 AM

dogzilla

24th March 2005, 12:39 PM

What niggles attacked you at stage 2?
1. There is only one true church. I had a hard time accepting and "knowing" that there could only possibly be one set of rules. I still believe there are different standards for different people and you can't possibly apply your standard to my life. I could not -- and still don't -- understand how Muslims who lived 500 years ago, or Buddhists who lived 2000 years ago could possibly be denied salvation... because we all chose in the preexistence where, when and to whom we'd be born, right? I couldn't square up those two concepts when I tried to generalize the doctrine away from modern Christian society.

2. Women are chattel and the only purpose we have for existing is to breed. Au contrair, mon frere. I walked out of Sunday School class when this lesson pissed me off. My dad, ward mission leader at the time, said not a word about my rebellion. I respect motherhood and all that, but I simply refuse to accept that women are capable of nothing more.

Those are the biggest niggles. I don't think I ever really had a very strong testimony in the first place. I was baptised as a teenager and left the church as a teenager. See Stage 3 for the biggest "niggle" of all, the major destabilizing event, which for me, caused the entire house of cards to collapse.

What form did they take?
I'd read something or hear something in sacrament meeting or sunday school, or seminary and spend the rest of the week researching and thinking.

How old were you at the time?
Baptised at age 14 -- had niggle attacks all along. Left the church by about age 19.

What encouraged you to pursue your concerns?
I went away to a non-mo school, and had no mormon influences around. Had a brief relationship with the branch in the town where I went to school, but the population there was flighty since it was a college town. Your home teacher might get his Master's and you'd have another one next month. No young adults except myself.

What acted to hinder that pursuit?
Guilt that if my dad found out, he'd be devastated and upset and possibly even disown me. We have never discussed it, but it's obvious that I'm not interested in returning to church. He does not press the issue, nor offer any sort of negative judgment in any way. Frankly, sometimes I think he's jealous.

Did they escalate over time?
Not really. As I learned more about other religions and doctrines, I found my convictions strengthened that the LDS were full of beans.

How long did you experience niggles before you went into stage 3 - Active denial, and did you keep repeating that cycle?
Probably about a year or two before I'd finally gone down so many non-mormon roads that I realized I'd never really go back and really didn't want to.

What was the impact upon you emotionally?
It was quite liberating to discover that I'm actually mostly normal.

peter_mary

24th March 2005, 01:49 PM

It was quite liberating to discover that I'm actually mostly normal.

Compared to what?...Mormons? Criminy, how reassuring can THAT be? :D

dogzilla

24th March 2005, 02:19 PM

Compared to what?...Mormons? Criminy, how reassuring can THAT be? :D

LOL.

Compared to most other non-mormons. Turns out... it's the mormons that are the freaks. IMHO.

Your mileage may vary.

elder_nomo

24th March 2005, 04:30 PM

sorry for double-posting here, but now i see that there's a reason for the suggested format (duh), so i'm going to try this again...

What niggles attacked you at stage 2?
polygamy
priesthood for blacks
relative small size of the One True church
after "receiving the holy ghost", felt no different

What form did they take?
questions for which the "pat" answers seemed unsatisfying, but not enough to worry about.

How old were you at the time?
age 16 (newly converted)

What encouraged you to pursue your concerns?
nothing. there didn't seem to be anything to be gained by questioning the church, and there was everything to lose.

What acted to hinder that pursuit?
the "all or nothing" approach. if the church is true....., all else follows.

Did they escalate over time?
not really. stayed in the background until later stages.. then came roaring back.

How long did you experience niggles before you went into stage 3 - Active denial, and did you keep repeating that cycle?
off and on for about 4 years, but they were not big concerns.
the temple - that was the first BIG niggle that threw me full-on into stage 3.

What was the impact upon you emotionally?
not much impact at stage 2. it was not like these doubts were eating away at me. i knew i just had to have faith and not let questions cause me to be disloyal.
but then everything went haywire at stage 3.

kreleia

26th April 2005, 04:09 AM

I went through stage 2 in two distinct times, as I remember. The first was right after I'd graduated high-school and during my first year of college. My friend and I were attending a singles ward together. At the time, I was mostly just disenchanted with the church. I felt deep down that there were some fundamental wrongs, but I couldn't put my finger on what, and didn't care to explore further. But I most certainly hated the 3-hour-long block each Sunday, and I detested anything related to Relief Society even more. So, I mainly went inactive for a while. My friend and I would make like we were going to church, and then go somewhere else - a drive in the mountains, or around the city. Or we would even go hang out at her workplace so we could talk with her boyfriend (who wasn't LDS). My second year in college, I became actively involved in an LDSSA "Sorority" at the University of Utah, and once again was immersed in the culture.

The second time I went through stage two was a much longer period (about 5 to 6 years), and bounced back and forth between stage two and three (active denial) for most of it. It began shortly after my husband and I were married and moved to "Married Student Housing" at the University of Utah. As soon as we became known, I was called to be the organist - something that 10 years of classical Piano training had never prepared me for. After a year of it, and being sick of watching plenty of other piano players come into the ward who never received music callings, I stopped attending meetings to get my point across. So, they called me as Primary pianist - to a primary of 8 kids (lots of newborns in the ward, but few old enough to even be "Stars.") I actually liked that job. A few months later, I was called as Relief Society pianist. The first morning I showed up - early - one of the girls in the presidency had the straight-face gall to turn around and ask me in the snottiest tone if I was prepared. At quarter-to-the-hour (I had come in at 10-minutes-to), she'd decided I was late and asked another person to play prelude. I assured her I was, played for the remainder of the meeting, and never went back. When we finally graduated and moved, I was immediately made Primary pianist in our new ward.

My husband seemed hardly able to escape the "Ward Clerk" position either. He did it twice in our student ward, and then again in our regular adult ward. All because he told the bishopric he was in accounting.

What niggles attacked you at stage 2?
If there are so many good people in this world, why are so few going to be saved? And what about the people who lived for so many centuries without the "truth?" What if they decide to not accept the post-mortem baptism that we, as good True-Believing-Mormons, perform for them? Why would God punish people for ignorance of something that never existed during their lifetimes? (this question really bothered me a lot.)

The Book of Mormon says that the "Lamanites" (Native Americans) were descended from Hebrew origins. Yet science has proved otherwise. Even the Smithsonian Institution has publicly stated that the Book of Mormon is not any kind of ancient historical record, and is only a religious text. Why would God deliberately mislead his "chosen" people? Why would God feel it necessary to "test" his chosen people with preposterous revelations, when we were already doing everything in our power to prove that we were worthy to be in his presence? Why doesn't my own earthly father - a man dedicated to medical science and research, as well as the Church - find anything wrong with this?

Why would God lead his "chosen" people to a barren valley with a giant lake of salt - on purpose? Why would he condone a practice as vile as polygamy to merely "test" his saints?

Why would God give "revelations" about specific socio-political issues (i.e., polygamy, african-americans holding the priesthood) at EXACTLY the time when the Church was receiving pressure about them? Why would he not reveal these things prior to those periods?

How will it ever be possible to spread the "word of the gospel" to every living person on the earth?

Why, if these are the last days, would we be counseled by the General Authorities to plan for future generations? To live our lives hoping for the second coming, but not expecting it? Why would God command his "children" to trek to Missouri without the use of modern conveniences, and expect them to survive? And why, when there is all manner of evolutionary evidence to the contrary, does the Church insist that the Garden of Eden was in Jackson County, Missouri!?

Why can't anyone give me a specific answer? I'm tired of "reading the scriptures, praying, and listening for the still small voice." Doing this has not answered my questions. It does not cause two completely opposite things to become compatible. And it most certainly doesn't help me reconcile that some of my best friends will never make it to the celestial kingdom, simply because they exercised their divine gift of Free Will.

What about Mother Theresa? What about Mikhail Gorbachev? What about the people who are out in the middle of nowhere, simply because that's where chance put them?

What form did they take?
Mostly questions (see above). I know that these are questions I asked my mother and father many times. I considered my mother a spiritual giant in the church, and my father as a rock of knowledge, truth and spirituality. Neither of them could answer any of these questions to my satisfaction, and usually ended up quoting Book of Mormon passages to me, or telling me that I might be the person to find these answers one day. Study, pray, listen to the spirit.

And I wasn't afraid to go to my bishop to ask these questions - my father was my bishop. For six years.

How old were you at the time?
The first time, 18 to 19 - about a year-and-a-half long.
The second time, 21 to 27.

What encouraged you to pursue your concerns?
The first time, nothing.

The second time, I was (to use a much-abused religious term) blessed to meet people who are open-minded and asked me honestly about the Church, listened to my testimony, and then - in the same sitting - asked me if I had any more crack they could smoke, 'cause they'd never heard of anything so preposterous. I was shocked and "saddened" by this, of course, but decided to give their point-of-view a chance. So, I stepped outside my fuzzy world - one that was already crumbling for different reasons - and took a good hard look. To this day, I can't believe what I'm seeing. And I can hardly believe how deep the deceptions go.

What acted to hinder that pursuit?
The first time, myself. I think I was mainly disenchanted, and tired of attending so many meetings. I had questions, absolutely. But the mostly lurked in the back of my mind, and with school and work, and trying to have a social life, I just didn't care to pursue them. I was also still very much a TBM.

The second time, the fear that I would lose my family, and the fear of "Why would they be wrong, and why would I be right?"

Did they escalate over time?
Yes. These are questions that never go away - especially when the self-proclaimed authorities have no answer, and the well-read very knowledgable believers can't give you one either.

How long did you experience niggles before you went into stage 3 - Active denial, and did you keep repeating that cycle?
Like I mentioned earlier, the first time, about a year-and-a-half. The second time, I bounced back and forth between the two quite frequently.

What was the impact upon you emotionally?
It was spiritually exhausting. During the second time period, a few months after graduating from college, my depression manifested. I'd worked so hard and come so far... for what? To be a mother in Zion? I wasn't ready for that. To work a pithy part-time job at the Franklin Covey catalog sales department? Not for forever! To be a Mary Kay consultant? I should've just gone on a mission for all the crap they wanted me to do, and the tag I was supposed to wear. To attend every possible church function and Relief Society "Enrichment Night?" ::gag:: No thanks.

So, the depression spiral continued and my questions still went unanswered. I was also becoming mentally and physically exhausted for doing everything that everyone told me I should be doing, and then being disappointed in me when I indulged in what I wanted to be doing.

why me

26th April 2005, 08:24 AM

Thank you for your story. It was long but well worth the moment to read it. I am curious to know if you are still experiencing moments of depression. I understand your inner struggle very well. I have also experienced such a struggle and if I am honest I still do experience it. I just wanted to write that you sound like a beautiful person and welcome to the forum. Hopefully, you will find people who share your concerns and experiences here. This is a good place for inactives and postmormons to disucss the issues and feelings that are influencing their lives. I think that you will be making wonderful contributiions here. Take care and enjoy the spring weaather..... :)

Sorry guys I just can't seem to answer the questions now. I just wanted to greet Kreleia. :)

helemon

26th April 2005, 09:16 AM

What niggles attacked you at stage 2?
The divinity of polygamy after becoming married. Thinking about how it must be to live as a polygamist wife.

That while baptism was open to non-members marriage, which seems like it would be an equally powerful conversion tool, is closed off to friends and family who are not members and not recomend holders.

The churches temple changes made me wonder. I also was becoming more aware of a mismatch between the doctrines I was taught in church as a child such as blacks being less valiant in heaven were never discussed anymore. I was feeling the doctrinal sand shift beneath my feet which caused me to explore further.

These were the first. The other major issues came later once I had digital copies of mormon writings.

What form did they take?
? Not sure what you mean. They were basic theological issues I struggled with at first.

How old were you at the time?
23

What encouraged you to pursue your concerns?
I was intellectually curious and wanted to know more about church history and wanted to try and learn more about various church teachings.

What acted to hinder that pursuit?
Nothing other than time needed to do the research.

Did they escalate over time?
Did what escalate? The niggles or the hinderances? The hinderances never escalated. Most people to whom I expressed my concerns if they were members simply said basically that they were imperfect men and to just pray and stay active. There were no major love bombs or interventions or hell fire condemnations.
The niggles did increase into strong disagreements with past teachings and the current lack of acknowledgement of past teachings.

How long did you experience niggles before you went into stage 3 - Active denial, and did you keep repeating that cycle?
I don't think I ever entered the denial phase. It was just a growing body of evidence against the church that slowly pushed me out of activity. I never tried to ignore or not deal with what I was seeing and reading.

What was the impact upon you emotionally?
I was angry, disappointed and frustrated that a church who claims to be God's mouthpiece, the restored church of Christ, who encourages members to research the history of the church and it's leaders, would so actively hide and revise it's teachings and history. I think it was in a way how someone would feel if they found out that their spouse was cheating on them and had been lying to them about it. It was this sense of a betrayal of trust that I think was the strongest emotion.

helemon

26th April 2005, 11:07 AM

If the prophet ever, ever, ever, was wrong then I had to deal with it and had to use my inspiration to detect it--so why did I need him?)

Yes this was a a big issue for me. And then how are they different from the uninspired ministers whom they condem or claim to be superior to?

When I was in the mission home we attended a session in the SL Temple and then went upstairs to the solemn assembly room and we were told a GA would come and, since we were still in the temple, we could talk all about it and ask all the questions we wanted. Guess who showed up--Gordo! We asked away. He treated us like we were stupid, know nothings for even asking--BUT he offered not a single answer to a serious question.

Nothing has changed!

I attended a training session for leaders who may be questioned by the media. THey (the church officials) taught us to avoid questions. The statement was "don't answer the question they asked, answer the question you wish they would have asked".
- IF ALL ELSE FAILS, ATTACK THE QUESTIONER
What about being the light on the hill, an ensign to the nations, the saviours on mount zion? Why should the true gospel have anything to hide from the world? I think it was Hinckley's use of these tactics that pushed me further away from the church. I want a leader and prophet of God to bodly proclaim the doctrines and revelations of the church. Let the chips fall where they may. While I disagree with many things taught by JS and BY I admire the boldness with which they proclaimed their message.

Hedging and obsfucating about church teachings and doctrines I think does more damage to the current members than preventing non-members from being offended or thinking we are not Christians. With all the information available on the internet I think it is foolish for leaders to mislead the world about these teachings. They need to face these issues head on, without equivocation, and call down revelation from on high to adress them. I still remember GBH acknowledging the fallout from his couplet speech in conference. Still he didn't address his comments directly but simply gave a grandfatherly wink and hand wave to inform the members not to worry that he still believed the doctrine that God was once a man but that he knew best in not revealing this controversial idea to the world.

gracie

24th May 2005, 03:28 PM

What niggles attacked you at stage 2?

I think I always had niggles, as I was a pretty thoughtful and introspective child. There were things that didn't quite add up throughout my life, by my conditioning was so strong and my trust in my own cognitive abilities so low, that the niggles never became actual questions till I was 35 years or so. Before that, they were mysteries that god would explain in the eternities, and I didn't seriously entertain them for a loooong time!

specifically:
How could a loving god only offer the true gospel to such a small group of his children at the "end" of the earth's life (last days)?

Why was my TBM mother always depressed, sad or in bed with a headache, when her sister who left the church at age 16 and never looked back, was so NORMAL? :Crazy:

What about mother Teresa? Did she REALLY need to be baptized mormon to go to heaven? I thought god looked in our hearts and saw how much light was in there?

And the real big niggle...

Why would god call a man to be a bishop knowing that he would molest me and I would subsequently consider and plan my suicide? Didn't god love me at all? Wasn't he omniscient? Was I expendable because the area needed a chapel built and the guy who was called as bishop was a contractor? Was I sacrificed so that everyone else could enjoy the blessings of a new cultural hall?
You would think that that experience was more like a brick to the head than a niggle, but that shows the extent of my conditioning. It was just one more thing that would make sense in the eternities; afterall, this life is but a blink in the scheme of things, right?

The time when the niggles became a catalyst to real questioning was at age 35. Until then, I would always blame our financial situation, or the fact that i was post-partum, or SOMETHING for the fact that I was unhappy or distressed. Then a few years ago, I had had enough. Everything was going great in my life; there was nothing to blame for a depression I was going through yet again. I decided that I must not understand the gospel right. i had done everything right, and I was still searching for PEACE. So obviously I didn't understand the fundamental principles of the gospel. I set out on a three year intensive study. i read and prayed and talked to bishops and other people supposedly in the know and simply became more and more confused. Then a few google searches on mormon church and sexual abuse, and women and the mormon church, and a few more I can't remember now, and the jig was up. All the previous years of niggles all of a sudden became brick after brick to my head.

How old were you at the time?
37-38 years

What encouraged you to pursue your concerns?

I felt I had no choice. I had been suicidal many years before, and was slowly heading that way again. i had to find out for once and for all, was I wasting my time? Was there any point to all the energy I had spent on trying to live the gospel in order to have a happy life? Whatever I found out, I had to know the truth.

What acted to hinder that pursuit?
Fear. Fear of hell, fear of abandonment by my loved ones, fear that I was taking responsibility for my own life and would probably screw up and could only blame myself for it! None of these was enough to hinder my study though. I continued to pray during this time that I would not have a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. I was not afraid at all to ask hard questions and expect truthful answers.

Did they escalate over time?

No. Although they surface occasionally when I am feeling vulnerable, or when I am put in a position where I feel threatened.

How long did you experience niggles before you went into stage 3 - Active denial, and did you keep repeating that cycle?

I spent my whole life to age 35 in denial. At that point, I felt like enough of a person to face whatever it was that kept me in constant cognitive dissonance and distress. I have not been tempted to, nor will I ever, go back to any level of activity in the church.

What was the impact upon you emotionally?

I was MAD!!! I have spent my whole life trying to be good enough to be happy, and now I am so angry!!!! I'm angry at what has been stolen from me (my childhood, my innocence, my time spent in callings - not all of which I regret however-, my self-esteem, my self-trust, on adn on); so much was lost because I believed so completely and sacrificed whatever I thought (and had been taught at church) god expected from me.
Anger keeps me moving forward however. It is the catalyst I need to make a life for myself that I can be happy with and proud of. I am also sad and hurt and grieve alot. Not only for myself, but for many others who are and have been in the same position i found myself.

Edited to add:
I love the word niggle. :)

Born Free

24th May 2005, 06:42 PM

<snip>

Anger keeps me moving forward however. It is the catalyst I need to make a life for myself that I can be happy with and proud of. I am also sad and hurt and grieve alot. Not only for myself, but for many others who are and have been in the same position i found myself.

Edited to add:
I love the word niggle. :)
Gracie,

With that anger, you'd never have made a 'good Mo' anyway! :duh

Thank you for sharing such a harrowing journey with us. I am so delighted to be in the company of someone who had the strength and smarts to overcome that and arrive where you are today.

I continue to be amazed at the number of people (women mostly) who have been sexually abused in this "God's loving Gospel'".

Daryl

miss taken

25th May 2005, 03:46 AM

Gracie said

Edited to add:
I love the word niggle.

Me too Gracie!!! It conjures up in my mind these little benign gremlins just pinching away at your arm, reminding you that all is not well in Zion!!!

Gracie, like Daryl I too am amazed at the number of abuse cases in the church. I suppose it is to be expected in any culture that is deeply sexually repressed.

Gracie, just on a light note, I think I have said it before, but I always used to walk out of testimony meetings so thoroughly depressed at the crying, burdened women (and men often) that bore their testimonies.

I don't think I am exagerating here when I honestly say that I cannot remember in the 20+ years that I was active, many testimony meetings that were actually joyful occassions. They just didn't happen.

Maybe it is a symptom of the deep underlying sense of inadequecy that many members feel as they strive for (their mental view of) perfection.

Mary

lunaverse

10th July 2006, 02:59 PM

What niggles attacked you at stage 2?

I had niggling doubts all along, and I merely suspended disbelief or came up with very creative solutions to these. (Perhaps this is one reason why intelligent people are more apt to remain stuck in a cult, because they're good at imagining creative solutions to the niggles.)

Keeping in mind I left at age 27, some of my niggles included:

1. Why does a 70-year lifetime determine an eternity of consequences? Especially if God's goal was to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man? (Age ~15)

2. I had come to agnostically believe in Evolution by age 16. My bishop helped with this. I saw few conflicts between Creationism and Evolution... Yet why did Bruce R. McConkie, supposedly inspired, claim it was all bunk in Mormon Doctrine? (He also insisted that your Fate was Eternal in the same book.)

3. How could God eternally punish people who were products of their upbringing? Even child molesters were often abused as children. (Age ~20)

4. Why didn't the Church take a stronger stand against child abuse? Why didn't they recognise the healing powers of secular psychology and teach these concepts more? I accepted both as Truth, so why couldn't the Church? The statements the church DID make about child abuse only seemed to me to make matters worse. (Age ~20)

5. Why were my most spiritual experiences outside of Church, and in nature doing things I shouldn't with non-member friends? (Age ~22)

6. Did the LDS church have a monopoly on the Holy Ghost? i.e. did other religions claim Proof through some feeling? (Age ~24)

7. Does God exist? How can we know? (Repeatedly answered and re-asked this question, from age ~14)

8. Why were so many of my prayers unanswered? (Age ~10 and on)

9. Why wouldn't my mom just leave my dad? Why was eternal marriage more important than earthly freedom from bondage and emotional abuse? (Age ~14)

10. Piercings, the color of your hair, and the music you listen to, shouldn't have anything to do with God. So why did the Church care so much? (Age ~22)

11. What could possibly be sinful about responsible sex? Every other central sin harmed someone. Responsible sex harmed no one. (Age ~23-27)

12. What was up with Polygamy? Was it banished by default, or commanded by default? Is non-polygamous Mormonism the norm or the exception? Some teachers and leaders said one thing, others said another. Mentally I prepped myself to accept polygamy if needed. (Age ~14)

13. I would never be perfect so I might as well give up. (Off and on through my teens, followed by a determination to become perfect and get translated.)

14. Garments were stupid, uncomfortable, and made me feel bad about my body. (Age ~25-27)

15. God promised me a good husband in my Patriarchal Blessing, so where was he? (Age 20-27) Why, after promising me a husband in the temple at ~25 did one never come?

16. What was my place in a Church that regarded women as homemakers, when I enjoyed my career, liked to speak up in class with my weird ideas, and enjoyed male-dominated topics? (Age 12+)

17. Why was caffeine so evil if I used it to self-medicate my ADHD as a milder alternative to Ritalin? (Age ~26)

18. Why was alcohol so evil when I could use it to overcome my social inhibitions that self-help was unable to cure? When I had changed to become a better person because of it? (Age 27, made the decision at that point to drink when ever I had the opportunity)

19. I was beginning to see selfishness as an inevitible human trait -- that even good Mormons seeking heaven who give up their lives are still acting in selfishness. There were a few conflicts between this and the Church's insistance on self-less-ness. (Age 26)

20. If the point of the Church was eternal progression, why was I so stagnetated by it for several years? (Age 26)

21. After repenting of drinking alcohol and making out with a guy, confessing it all with the Bishop and completing a disfellowshipment, why did 1 year later, the Stake Counselor grill me in-depth of the same? i.e. my sins were supposedly forgiven, washed clean, starting all over, did he see fit to ask me even more questions of these events than the Bishop had? It rather creeped me out. (Age ~24)

22. Why were men encouraged to go on missions and not women? If women mature faster than men, why did we have to wait until 21? (Age ~12)

23. Why did God strike a guy dead in the OT just for touching the Ark of the Covenant? Why didn't God continue to strike people down? (Age ~15, Seminary)

24. Why did Jesus say he would come again before a generation passed away? (Age ~15)

25. Why did J.S. say Jesus would come again before J.S. was 85? I didn't fully buy the bit about the actions of man screwing up the prophecy. (~Age 15)

What form did they take?

See above

How old were you at the time?

See above

What encouraged you to pursue your concerns?

I pursued few of these very far. I suspended disbelief. I spent time creating a lot of stories about how the Nephites would have had higher tech so would have built their houses out of wood, which have all rotted away so that's why there is no trace of them, how Noah used DNA samples to fit all those animals on the boat, how the Tower of Babel wasn't literal, that God merely removed the technology of global communications, and that's when the languages diverged. As a sci-fi fan, I could get very creative. :)

What acted to hinder that pursuit?

Thought terminating cliches. The Church was True. Everything else had to fit around that. If it didn't fit, it was rejected as a deception or put on a shelf.

I made a few attempts to change some things, like I wrote a letter to a High Councilman I respected (the same person as the Evolution Bishop mentioned above) regarding Stake Conference talks on abuse, and how, based on what I'd learned, these would only make problems worse, but I never heard back. I considered writing books and papers on the topic, but never did. (I wish I'd heard about Sunstone!!!)

Did they escalate over time?

Yes. In fact, the niggles of the year preceding Active Denial were pretty major, and I had pretty much decided to secretly disagree with the Church on some things, and act on that disagreement (like the Word of Wisdom), but I didn't really go very far with these.

How long did you experience niggles before you went into stage 3 - Active denial, and did you keep repeating that cycle?

Once I hit Active Denial, it was pretty much over. After coming to understand that no man could know God's Will, it took another 3 months before I acted on that new belief. Through that phase, I had reversed my role. Instead of believing in the Church and having a few doubts it was false, I now disbelieved in the Church, and fought my doubts that it could be true. Mainly this stemmed from fear, "What if I'm wrong?"

What was the impact upon you emotionally?

Confusion, fear, uncertainty. Freedom, liberation, joy, thrill, excitement. I think I was on a dopemine rush for 6 months after finally crossing the line.

sakerra

10th July 2006, 09:39 PM

What niggles attacked you at stage 2?
Polygamy. Joseph had wives that were younger than me. This was easily my biggest issue

Joseph's life in general. All the dirty little secrets that the church tries to cover up.

White and delightsome. I have several dark skinned sisters who have been adopted. None of them are turning any whiter. Not only does it not work, it's flat out racist.

Changes in the BoM. There is no way it has always been the most correct book. It either was then, or now but you can't have it both ways.

Families are forever...as long as your sealed. And the Prophet Gordon B. Hinkley said we couldn't seal one of my sisters to our family. I can't immagine how she feels sitting through all the "your family is forever" lessons knowing that because the prophet said so, she won't be with us forever.

What happened to Cain. Seriously. Wouldn't the flood kill him?

African Americans not being allowed to hold priesthood, even though Joseph Smith had let at least one that I know of.

Why isn't the study of church history encouraged?

What form did they take?
Questions no one could answer.

How old were you at the time?
Almost 13

What encouraged you to pursue your concerns?
It all started on this one thread that I found on another forum where people were seriuosly debating the church. I read maybe the first 20/300 pages and then posted my "The church is true you all shut up" type post. I was challenged by someone to research what they were debating. I was continaully challenged by this person to learn more. He shared with me his experience and his research and I couldn't stop. I wanted to learn.

What acted to hinder that pursuit?
My own fear. Fear that maybe it wasn't true. Fear that the organization that I had built what life I had on, was false and lying to me. Also the realization that if it wasn't I would have to act on it and how much that would hurt my parents and siblings.

Did they escalate over time?
Yes

How long did you experience niggles before you went into stage 3 - Active denial, and did you keep repeating that cycle? Three, maybe four months. I repeated the cycle constantly. I was scared, but wanted to know. In some ways, I'm still here. Wanting more than anything to be able to deny it and be who my parents, peers, and leaders expect me and want me to be.

What was the impact upon you emotionally?
It hurt. It still hurts. I was never taught anything else that I could build my life on. I was scared and felt very alone. Now I had a few people who supported me in this. My best friend, who is much older and had made the same journey previously, the one guy from the thread who was always pushing me, but not many others. I felt like I was living a lie, I hated myself for it.

Born Free

10th July 2006, 10:24 PM

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What was the impact upon you emotionally?[/LEFT]
It hurt. It still hurts. I was never taught anything else that I could build my life on. I was scared and felt very alone. Now I had a few people who supported me in this. My best friend, who is much older and had made the same journey previously, the one guy from the thread who was always pushing me, but not many others. I felt like I was living a lie, I hated myself for it.
Sakerra,

Wow, that sure sounds painful. And an amazingly courageous journey to make at such a young age and largely without support.

I turned 55 this year, and I've got to tell you how I admire you, for having the courage to make that step, when it would be oh so easy to dissociate; split yourself up into chunks, so that you can stay in that comfortable space with all the others and pretend you have not come by the knowledge you have.

But take it from someone who took that journey; that is a painful path, as I look back on poor decision, built upon poor decision, all because I could not see with clarity and make that courageous leap early, like you have.

I hope you can find early a robust and sustaining new belief system that will accelerate getting all those Mormon fairy-tales into perspective. And I would wish you a new circle of friends deserving of one so courageous.

Go girl!!!!!!

Daryl