Spirit or None?

[kyburz]

I am trying to find writings discussing the way that the mind and body can make someone "feel the spirit". In any discussion with those in mormondom, the subject always defers to what they feel. There must be some writings out there that discuss in easy to understand terms about how one can make themselves feel what they want to feel.

Any help would be appreciated.

[miss taken]

I am trying to find writings discussing the way that the mind and body can make someone "feel the spirit". In any discussion with those in mormondom, the subject always defers to what they feel. There must be some writings out there that discuss in easy to understand terms about how one can make themselves feel what they want to feel.

Any help would be appreciated.

I always feel a little on dodgy ground when discussing the spirit since it is so difficult to quantify.

My own personal belief is that 'God' works in ways that benefit us. I often felt 'good' while in the church. I now interpret these feelings as 'the road was right for me at the time'. I came not to feel that anymore, and it had nothing to do with 'sin' on my part. I came to feel that the road was no longer right for me.

At college, I always remember a very sincere but young methodist minister coming to my room for a good talk when he found out I was mormon.

He bore a strong and powerful testimony that the spirit was telling him to tell me that unless I left the mormon church I was going to the devil, and since he loved me as a christian, he couldn't bear for that to happen.

Internally I was thinking. Flip there goes another narrow minded religious bigot, who follows a God that I wouldn't begin to recognise.

There was no doubting his sincerity, and in religious terms he was playing the 'trump' card so to speak.

I am saying that it is not only mormons who use this technique but most of the major religions.

In the end it comes down to what YOU think, and that's all you should go on.

I've just read through this and see I havn't really answered your question. Only in so far as I think that we can intuitively feel what is good for us at any one time, and then we can misinterpret this as permanent.


Mary

[silverfox]

I am trying to find writings discussing the way that the mind and body can make someone "feel the spirit". In any discussion with those in mormondom, the subject always defers to what they feel. There must be some writings out there that discuss in easy to understand terms about how one can make themselves feel what they want to feel.

Any help would be appreciated.

I have read some good articles on this. I am trying to go through my bookmarks to see if I saved any of the links.

Now for my opinion - I think it's important to remember that there is a lot of pressure to feel the spirit within the church. It can almost be a competitive thing. We are EXPECTED almost COMMANDED to feel it. So many times whether we truly feel it or not we claim we do because we want it so badly. Emotions play such a huge part in this, IMO.

This is not to undermine any spiritual feelings any one has experienced or will experience. I've had several very (what I feel) genuine spiritual experiences (including outside the church) but my emotions and expectations were ripe to either 1.)allow myself to experience it or 2.) allow myself to create it. Regardless, the feeling is genuine at the time.

[miss taken]

I have read some good articles on this. I am trying to go through my bookmarks to see if I saved any of the links.

Now for my opinion - I think it's important to remember that there is a lot of pressure to feel the spirit within the church. It can almost be a competitive thing. We are EXPECTED almost COMMANDED to feel it. So many times whether we truly feel it or not we claim we do because we want it so badly. Emotions play such a huge part in this, IMO.

This is not to undermine any spiritual feelings any one has experienced or will experience. I've had several very (what I feel) genuine spiritual experiences (including outside the church) but my emotions and expectations were ripe to either 1.)allow myself to experience it or 2.) allow myself to create it. Regardless, the feeling is genuine at the time.

I would agree with Silverfox there. I also remember going to other religious services (pentecostal), actually it was with some missionaries when I was a teenager, and they were going for a bit of a laugh, which seems pretty bad now. Anyway, when we were there, there was lots of arm raising, singing, fainting etc, I was actually very scared (conservative by nature), and these people were obviously being whipped up into a group frenzy by the speaker and by the music. It was very powerful, and I would imagine that all the people there would say they were feeling the 'spirit'. A group mentality seemed to take over, where all knew the expectations and the deal. Maybe one sees the same thing happen at a rock concert, and there were certainly a lot of fainting, worshipful women at the few Osmond Concerts I went to (that was scary too).

I don't know of any research, but would also be pleased to see some links on the subject.

Just edited to add that from my memory very young children in the church are often trained to get up at the pulpit in front of a lot of people and bear their testimony.
This is often with the parent (in my experience) at the back telling them what to say. Parents obviously do this with the best possible intentions since they believe that their child's testimony ensures not only the child's place in heaven but also theirs. This training to bear testimony and feel good about it, imo starts very early for many born and bred members.
Mary

[peter_mary]

I am trying to find writings discussing the way that the mind and body can make someone "feel the spirit". In any discussion with those in mormondom, the subject always defers to what they feel. There must be some writings out there that discuss in easy to understand terms about how one can make themselves feel what they want to feel.

Any help would be appreciated.

Since I'm not sure what your personal orientation on this subject is, I'm not sure that this suggestion would be helpful. However, the way I interpreted your question was that you were wondering about the physiology and pyschology associated with the "feeling" we often attribute to the "Spirit." Assuming this is an accurate assessment of your question, I would encourage you to get on Amazon or go to Borders or Barnes & Noble and find the book, "Religion Explained," by Pascal Boyer. He is a cultural anthropologist, and I found this book to be one of the most enlightening on the co-evolution of human culture and religion, and it deals specifically with the question I think you were asking.

Now, if you were asking a DIFFERENT question, then I'm afraid I haven't any good suggestions.

Hope that is useful. I LOVED the book, but it's not light reading! :)

Paul

[Born Free]

I am trying to find writings discussing the way that the mind and body can make someone "feel the spirit". In any discussion with those in mormondom, the subject always defers to what they feel. There must be some writings out there that discuss in easy to understand terms about how one can make themselves feel what they want to feel.

Any help would be appreciated.

Great thread addition to start BTW!

The author and psychologist Nathaniel Branden makes the point in one of his books that:

That we have feelings is a fact, and it is very unhelpful to deny/ignore the existence of our feelings
That does not however make what we feel a reality.

For example: I would be unwise to ignore a discomfort about a new bsuiness contact.

To act upon that feeling as if it is a fact, might be premature, and based upon similarities he has with someone I knew and had an unpleasant experience with many years ago.

The word "spiritual" is just a word, which has 9 letters. It means many different things to many different people, but the majority have never stopped to scrutinize what they mean by the word. I observe that unhelpful individually, but particuarly problematic when communicating with otehrs who have likewise failed to pin down their meaning.

I am mindful of many young people feeling on an emotional high at the end of some Church Youth gathering. They believe, and are encouraged to believe that that is "the S pirit".

Some, as they get older, move into various other circles of people including non-Mormons, and engage powerful, and intense processes that elicit similar heightened emotional responses. Some then get confused, because they had been convinced that the feeling in the first instance was "the Spirit" (capital S) which they believe Mormonism has some near monopoly on, so they are rattled by replicating the experience elsewhere, particularly with non-Mormons.

So it is my belief that many are experiencing an emotional high which they conveniently label "spirituality", and get away with it due to their lack of broader experience.

To make this matter even worse, there are those who, in response to someone wrestling with the latter discovery, will claim that Satan runs rampant with other groups to try to copy the "real experience" with the intent of leading people astray. Mo fear-based manipulation and control at its worst! :Puking

At a physiological/neurological level, I would expect you are dealing with the brain being flooded with endorphins and other natural opiates. We are social animals, and we now know that grooming among primates generates a socially bonding endorphine high, which certain human social contexts replicate.

If you have ever heard people who listened to Hitlers speeches interviewed, they report something similar. They say that on the occasion they were estatic, convinced he was speaking profound wisdom, but upon reading the transcripts the day after in the press, realized he had spoken drivel. We ignore human capacity for such behaviour at our peril.

William James had an interesting remark on deconstructing this over-reliance upon feelings as fact when he said:

If merely 'feeling good' could decide, [then] drunkenness would be the supremely valid human experience. - William James, The Varieties of Religious Experience

Daryl

[dogzilla]

Daryl, that was a fascinating discussion of language and how it helps shape our religious views. Thanks for posting that!

And that quote at the end should be your signature.

[Born Free]

Daryl, that was a fascinating discussion of language and how it helps shape our religious views. Thanks for posting that!

And that quote at the end should be your signature.
dogzilla,

I am glad there was something of value there for you.

I had a very problematic relationship with feelings for many years (and still working). In many ways I erred on the other end of the scale, extremely distrustful of feelings; way overrating the power of logic.

In the transitional years I copped a lot of flack from New Age touchy-feely types for whom a feeling was reality.

As we speak (at 54) I am still working to reintegrate my ability to work with feelings, which has been a challenge after years of habituating disconnecting from my body. I have discovered that havving a feeling in my head is a bit fraught and limited.

Daryl

[free thinker]

In reading Todd Comptons book " In Sacred Loneliness" we read of an experience in which Joseph Smith asks a young woman to pray about entering a polygamous marriage with him. She is stunned! Joseph challenges her to pray about it, and tells her he will check with her in the morning. She has a strong spiritual witness that she is to proceed with the marriage. Now some TBM'S who read that might say. "Well there it is. Polygamy is a true concept" But here is the problem. If it is a true concept then why has the church abandoned it. If it is only being temporarily suspended, then women in the church have polygamy to look forward to at some time. And possibly an eternity of it. All of this based on a feeling someone had as a buttress for the argument.

If you want to see dissonance and ambiguity in action, bring this up at a relief society meeting somewhere. Then sit back and watch the show!!

Free Thinker

[miss taken]

In reading Todd Comptons book " In Sacred Loneliness" we read of an experience in which Joseph Smith asks a young woman to pray about entering a polygamous marriage with him. She is stunned! Joseph challenges her to pray about it, and tells her he will check with her in the morning. She has a strong spiritual witness that she is to proceed with the marriage. Now some TBM'S who read that might say. "Well there it is. Polygamy is a true concept" But here is the problem. If it is a true concept then why has the church abandoned it. If it is only being temporarily suspended, then women in the church have polygamy to look forward to at some time. And possibly an eternity of it. All of this based on a feeling someone had as a buttress for the argument.

If you want to see dissonance and ambiguity in action, bring this up at a relief society meeting somewhere. Then sit back and watch the show!!

Free Thinker

Free thinker, I was never under any doubt that polygamy as a principle was still upheld to be the way god operates it. My own understanding of it, and I was taught this right from the beginning, is that they had to stop polygamy otherwise the church would have been shut down etc, but in principle the church teaches that indeed God is polygamous, that Jesus is polygamous, and that ALL marriages in the celestial kingdom will be polygamous, it is a LAW of the CELESTIAL KINGDOM, and anyone getting into that kingdom will HAVE to abide by that law.

I once asked the SP the reason why, and he said it was because women could only have one child at a time, so the men needed to be married to more than one, so that they could breed as many children as possible (in the celestial kingdom that is), and taking it on from that, if we are going to be 'populating our own worlds, which is also integral to mormon belief then we need lots of breeding women.

I always had a hard time with this, but can never say I wasn't taught it, because I was, and the men, particularly the more flirty ones, were always happy to remind us and their wives, that that was the way it was going to be.

[silverfox]

Free thinker, I was never under any doubt that polygamy as a principle was still upheld to be the way god operates it. My own understanding of it, and I was taught this right from the beginning, is that they had to stop polygamy otherwise the church would have been shut down etc, but in principle the church teaches that indeed God is polygamous, that Jesus is polygamous, and that ALL marriages in the celestial kingdom will be polygamous, it is a LAW of the CELESTIAL KINGDOM, and anyone getting into that kingdom will HAVE to abide by that law.

I once asked the SP the reason why, and he said it was because women could only have one child at a time, so the men needed to be married to more than one, so that they could breed as many children as possible (in the celestial kingdom that is), and taking it on from that, if we are going to be 'populating our own worlds, which is also integral to mormon belief then we need lots of breeding women.

I always had a hard time with this, but can never say I wasn't taught it, because I was, and the men, particularly the more flirty ones, were always happy to remind us and their wives, that that was the way it was going to be.

The concept is still taught. The mishies talked about it with me last year when they were "teaching" daughter. My daughter was taught exactly what you describe in seminary last year.

I believe the church is trying to keep themselves separated from all the polygamist compounds especially here in Utard and in Canada. They get a lot of negative publicity and some still consider themselves Mormon. So the church has shifted their focus away from it but it doesn't mean it isn't doctrine or commandment, etc when the time is "appropriate".

I would love to see polygamy legalized. I would love to see if the church jumps right in commanding it. I would love to see how many women tell the leaders where to go and how to get there. It would be another way the church could weed out their devout members.

Women can only have one baby at a time PLUS there is always menopause that puts a stop to those child bearing years.

I have always envisioned the Celestial Kingdom for women like a giant conveyor belt.....the wives all lying there side by side with the husband on the end impregnating them all. With "temple" like workers assisting in the deed to make sure all goes like it should. "Open wider, Sister Jones....there ya go" "Brother Jones, take your time with this one, this is one of your new wives but please hurry there are many others waiting."

I wonder if there has ever been a sterile man who has been a polygamist? (hmmmmmmmmm)

How many of you have had heated discussions about this with your spouses? I've made it clear from the beginning in both my marriages that polygamy was never going to happen, not with me. Only to be told, well, if it's a commandmant they will do their best to obey it.

[miss taken]

The concept is still taught. The mishies talked about it with me last year when they were "teaching" daughter. My daughter was taught exactly what you describe in seminary last year.

I believe the church is trying to keep themselves separated from all the polygamist compounds especially here in Utard and in Canada. They get a lot of negative publicity and some still consider themselves Mormon. So the church has shifted their focus away from it but it doesn't mean it isn't doctrine or commandment, etc when the time is "appropriate".

I would love to see polygamy legalized. I would love to see if the church jumps right in commanding it. I would love to see how many women tell the leaders where to go and how to get there. It would be another way the church could weed out their devout members.

Women can only have one baby at a time PLUS there is always menopause that puts a stop to those child bearing years.

I have always envisioned the Celestial Kingdom for women like a giant conveyor belt.....the wives all lying there side by side with the husband on the end impregnating them all. With "temple" like workers assisting in the deed to make sure all goes like it should. "Open wider, Sister Jones....there ya go" "Brother Jones, take your time with this one, this is one of your new wives but please hurry there are many others waiting."

I wonder if there has ever been a sterile man who has been a polygamist? (hmmmmmmmmm)

How many of you have had heated discussions about this with your spouses? I've made it clear from the beginning in both my marriages that polygamy was never going to happen, not with me. Only to be told, well, if it's a commandmant they will do their best to obey it.

Silverfox, I would love to see polygamy on a thread of its own, and would love to hear the 'mens' opinions of it.

Mary

[Jeff_Ricks]

William James had an interesting remark on deconstructing this over-reliance upon feelings as fact when he said:

If merely 'feeling good' could decide, [then] drunkenness would be the supremely valid human experience. - William James, The Varieties of Religious Experience

Daryl

I technically qualify as an atheist in that I don't believe in God as a separate being we might contact once in awhile through some kind of psycho/spiritual radio waves when we’re in tune, but I do find that we are a part of something bigger – bigger than what we normally perceive as our Self. As I see it we are that “something bigger” but are blinded from it by the concept we have of our Self as a sequestered consciousness pushed out of home’s front door sometime back before we were born and therefore before we can remember. I think that connecting with or remembering that “something bigger” is just half a breath away under the right circumstances. I find that the right circumstances are when we let go of an illusion of Self that we normally seem to cling to with a kind of survivalist instinct. Without getting into the details I’ll simply say that such a remembering experience happened twice in my life. The first time was when I was still a Mormon. It lasted three or four days then ended as abruptly as it came. Then a second time two years later I again remembered. It lasted only a few hours but included such a degree of clarity that I classify it as the more important of the two experiences. The first experience set me on a path of searching that gave me the courage to question my Mormon faith. The second experience happened on the day I knew I could no longer be a Mormon and had to leave.

I agree with Daryl that we put too much stock in feelings as a guide. Feelings can be as fickle as a weather vane in an oncoming storm. For example, within the space two hours we can be uncontrollably laughing then sobbing then feeling a kind of peace as we experience the product of Hollywood dollars and imagination. But I find that remembering in general is another experience altogether, immune to the influence of special effects and music. Although accompanied with a joy that equals the feelings of loss until one finally remembers, I find that at the heart of such an experience is more of a cognitive or psychological experience -- feelings are a mere side effect of the remembering. What exactly did I remember? It seems trite to put in words but among other related things I remembered that we are not separate beings but are one. We can easily imagine various scenarios of how we might be one, like how Luke Skywalker and the Force were one, but the experience for me was more than imagining something. While sorting through my thoughts as twice in my life I struggled to understand who and what exactly I was in this universe, it was as if I was groping in the dark through the basement of my parents home probing inch by inch blindly trying to understand what lie on the shelves, then suddenly bumping the light switch and seeing it all with perfect clarity. Suddenly it all made perfect sense. I understood me and my relationship to the universe. I understood with perfect clarity that it was all me.

It was that experience of searching, then remembering, then knowing with clarity, and of course accompanied by feelings of joy, that I experienced twice in my life. Personally the feelings I can take or leave, but the remembering for me is something I cherish and still remember to this day. I wish I could articulate the expereinces with the clarity with which I remember them but it’s as if the language that I experienced it in is different than the only language I share with others – English. The best I can hope for is to describe in English things that are like what I remembered.

So for what it’s worth, that’s my contribution to this thread about spiritual feelings.

Jeff

[free thinker]

The concept is still taught. The mishies talked about it with me last year when they were "teaching" daughter. My daughter was taught exactly what you describe in seminary last year.

I believe the church is trying to keep themselves separated from all the polygamist compounds especially here in Utard and in Canada. They get a lot of negative publicity and some still consider themselves Mormon. So the church has shifted their focus away from it but it doesn't mean it isn't doctrine or commandment, etc when the time is "appropriate".

I would love to see polygamy legalized. I would love to see if the church jumps right in commanding it. I would love to see how many women tell the leaders where to go and how to get there. It would be another way the church could weed out their devout members.

Women can only have one baby at a time PLUS there is always menopause that puts a stop to those child bearing years.

I have always envisioned the Celestial Kingdom for women like a giant conveyor belt.....the wives all lying there side by side with the husband on the end impregnating them all. With "temple" like workers assisting in the deed to make sure all goes like it should. "Open wider, Sister Jones....there ya go" "Brother Jones, take your time with this one, this is one of your new wives but please hurry there are many others waiting."

I wonder if there has ever been a sterile man who has been a polygamist? (hmmmmmmmmm)

How many of you have had heated discussions about this with your spouses? I've made it clear from the beginning in both my marriages that polygamy was never going to happen, not with me. Only to be told, well, if it's a commandmant they will do their best to obey it.

I find it interesting That Joseph Smith would marry women who already had active mormon husbands. I wonder how this fit's in with the idea of growing a population of mormons? What was the point?

I will be responding if you start a polygamy thread! If polygamy is the order of heaven, I'll take whatever is behind door number two instead. Frankly, I think the whole idea is hogwash. Some men find it repulsive too! I am one of them.

Just another whacky mormon idea!!

Free Thinker

[miss taken]

I find it interesting That Joseph Smith would marry women who already had active mormon husbands. I wonder how this fit's in with the idea of growing a population of mormons? What was the point?

I will be responding if you start a polygamy thread! If polygamy is the order of heaven, I'll take whatever is behind door number two instead. Frankly, I think the whole idea is hogwash. Some men find it repulsive too! I am one of them.

Just another whacky mormon idea!!

Free Thinker#


I can't quote word for word, but I think the reasoning behind JS marrying women who were already married to their poor unsuspecting husbands, is that because a 'new and everlasting covenant' of marriage was instituted that meant that all marriages were null and void in the sight of God, so really all those women and men were not married at all, therefore it was a free for all!!! Lucky ole Joe!!!

Mary

[Alicia]

It is also interesting that even though Joseph Smith married women who were already married, for the most part the women continued to live with their first husbands. “In Sacred Loneliness” is a very interesting read.

It seems that the church was a lot different back then. People were talking in tongues and women were giving blessings.

Alicia

[dogzilla]

dogzilla,

I am glad there was something of value there for you.

I had a very problematic relationship with feelings for many years (and still working). In many ways I erred on the other end of the scale, extremely distrustful of feelings; way overrating the power of logic.

In the transitional years I copped a lot of flack from New Age touchy-feely types for whom a feeling was reality.

As we speak (at 54) I am still working to reintegrate my ability to work with feelings, which has been a challenge after years of habituating disconnecting from my body. I have discovered that havving a feeling in my head is a bit fraught and limited.

Daryl

One concept that I've found very useful in my post-mo life is one I learned in therapy, obtained as an adult in lieu of that which I should have received through the church. (So funny, all I remember the Church Family Services counselor asking me is, "When have you not felt as if you were good enough?" "Um. Ever since I joined the church?" Funny we didn't need a lot of family therapy after that... :D )

That concept is one of separating what you think from what you feel. I'd go to my therapist all confused and screwed up in the way I thought about men (no surprise there, in retrospect) and she helped me categorize my reactions. In fact, I had homework and for an entire week, any opinion that floated into my head had to be charted and categorized as either a feeling or a thought. Thoughts are more salient and quantifiable while feelings were nebulous and more qualitative -- more difficult to define and pin down.

Once I started distinguishing between thinking and feeling, my world became a whole lot more clear. I find discussions of "feeling the spirit" to involve a lot of emotions and nonquantifiable opinions. Obviously, the nature of The Spirit is different for everyone, contrary to popular Mormon belief.

Do I believe there is such a thing? Sure, I just don't allow that "still small voice" to make decisions for me unless I can back her up with hard-core, proven, or documentable facts. She's really just an extension of my emotional self and not The Holy Spirit at all.

Your mileage may vary.

[dogzilla]

(So funny, all I remember the Church Family Services counselor asking me is, "When have you not felt as if you were good enough?" "Um. Ever since I joined the church?" Funny we didn't need a lot of family therapy after that... :D )

Ooops. That was supposed to be "... NOT good enough..." :(

[miss taken]

It is also interesting that even though Joseph Smith married women who were already married, for the most part the women continued to live with their first husbands. “In Sacred Loneliness” is a very interesting read.

It seems that the church was a lot different back then. People were talking in tongues and women were giving blessings.

Alicia


So does that mean that women WERE permitted to marry more than one man then!!!! OOOOH yipeee!!
Mary

[Alicia]

So does that mean that women WERE permitted to marry more than one man then!!!! OOOOH yipeee!!
Mary

I think pretty much any thing went as long as Joseph Smith said he had a vision about it.
Alicia

[free thinker]

I think pretty much any thing went as long as Joseph Smith said he had a vision about it.
Alicia

That's pretty much how it went. I do think though that a man named Bennet had some influence on Joseph Smith in the polygamy arena. He ended up leaving the church.

It was a pretty freewheeling time though. Probably would have been an interesting place to live at the time. Nauvoo.

Eventually Joseph made a pass at William Law's wife Jane, and everything came unglued from that point on. William Law started the Nauvoo Expositor to expose the interesting things that Joseph Smith was doing! Joseph had the printing press destroyed, and from there it all came to a quick conclusion in Nauvoo.

There is no way anyone will ever be able to convince me that polygamy as practiced by Joseph Smith was anything but gratifying lust.

Free Thinker

[miss taken]

That's pretty much how it went. I do think though that a man named Bennet had some influence on Joseph Smith in the polygamy arena. He ended up leaving the church.

It was a pretty freewheeling time though. Probably would have been an interesting place to live at the time. Nauvoo.

Eventually Joseph made a pass at William Law's wife Jane, and everything came unglued from that point on. William Law started the Nauvoo Expositor to expose the interesting things that Joseph Smith was doing! Joseph had the printing press destroyed, and from there it all came to a quick conclusion in Nauvoo.

There is no way anyone will ever be able to convince me that polygamy as practiced by Joseph Smith was anything but gratifying lust.

Free Thinker

See, there's another thing that I was never ever taught - William Law's wife was being sought after by Joseph, uh uh, nope they don't tell yar that down at the ole seminary (or anywhere else for that matter)!!

Mary

[peter_mary]

See, there's another thing that I was never ever taught - William Law's wife was being sought after by Joseph, uh uh, nope they don't tell yar that down at the ole seminary (or anywhere else for that matter)!!

Mary

Other prominent church leaders were also negatively impacted by Joseph's advances. Sidney Rigdon was badly put off when Joseph asked his daughter, Nancy, to be his wife (she was a teenager, but I don't recall how old). When she refused, Joseph smeared her name. That was the turning event that really cast the future relationship between the charismatic preacher and the charismatic prophet in a deteriorating light, until Sidney eventually left Mormonism all together.

But of particular interest was Sarah Pratt, wife of Orson Pratt. Shortly after sending Orson on a mission, Joseph approached Sarah and asked her to be his polygamous wife. She refused, and Joseph again created a smear campaign of such magnitude that Orson essentially excused himself from the Church for a year over the "affair." At last, when push came to shove, Orson had to choose between his wife and the Church, and he chose the Church. He remained married to Sarah, but violated her understanding of an agreement they had, and he soon started taking on younger wives and marginalizing Sarah to the point of insignificance. Orson went on to be a champion of polygamy, and Sarah was relegated to a footnote in history, accused of being a tramp and a harlot.

The irony in that story is enough to make a sane person sick. :Puking

Peter_Mary

[miss taken]

One concept that I've found very useful in my post-mo life is one I learned in therapy, obtained as an adult in lieu of that which I should have received through the church. (So funny, all I remember the Church Family Services counselor asking me is, "When have you not felt as if you were good enough?" "Um. Ever since I joined the church?" Funny we didn't need a lot of family therapy after that... :D )

That concept is one of separating what you think from what you feel. I'd go to my therapist all confused and screwed up in the way I thought about men (no surprise there, in retrospect) and she helped me categorize my reactions. In fact, I had homework and for an entire week, any opinion that floated into my head had to be charted and categorized as either a feeling or a thought. Thoughts are more salient and quantifiable while feelings were nebulous and more qualitative -- more difficult to define and pin down.

Once I started distinguishing between thinking and feeling, my world became a whole lot more clear. I find discussions of "feeling the spirit" to involve a lot of emotions and nonquantifiable opinions. Obviously, the nature of The Spirit is different for everyone, contrary to popular Mormon belief.

Do I believe there is such a thing? Sure, I just don't allow that "still small voice" to make decisions for me unless I can back her up with hard-core, proven, or documentable facts. She's really just an extension of my emotional self and not The Holy Spirit at all.

Your mileage may vary.

Dogzilla, I wish I had some kind of guidance on all the stuff I went through as a teenager. Learning to interpret, recognise and categorise your thoughts/emotions/feelings is something I could have done with at the time. After my PB I used to lie awake thinking 'Satan' was right next to me and was trying to suffocate me. The times I woke up in a cold sweat were no-ones business!!

Mary

[dogzilla]

Dogzilla, I wish I had some kind of guidance on all the stuff I went through as a teenager. Learning to interpret, recognise and categorise your thoughts/emotions/feelings is something I could have done with at the time. After my PB I used to lie awake thinking 'Satan' was right next to me and was trying to suffocate me. The times I woke up in a cold sweat were no-ones business!!

Mary

Yeah, me too. I didn't get that lesson until my early 20's. It's very useful. I guess we could say, "For those of you who have teenagers... here's a good talk, right here."

I suspect girls might find this more useful than boys since we girls seem to live more intensely emotional lives moreso than boys do. [/sweeping generalization]

[free thinker]

Other prominent church leaders were also negatively impacted by Joseph's advances. Sidney Rigdon was badly put off when Joseph asked his daughter, Nancy, to be his wife (she was a teenager, but I don't recall how old). When she refused, Joseph smeared her name. That was the turning event that really cast the future relationship between the charismatic preacher and the charismatic prophet in a deteriorating light, until Sidney eventually left Mormonism all together.

But of particular interest was Sarah Pratt, wife of Orson Pratt. Shortly after sending Orson on a mission, Joseph approached Sarah and asked her to be his polygamous wife. She refused, and Joseph again created a smear campaign of such magnitude that Orson essentially excused himself from the Church for a year over the "affair." At last, when push came to shove, Orson had to choose between his wife and the Church, and he chose the Church. He remained married to Sarah, but violated her understanding of an agreement they had, and he soon started taking on younger wives and marginalizing Sarah to the point of insignificance. Orson went on to be a champion of polygamy, and Sarah was relegated to a footnote in history, accused of being a tramp and a harlot.

The irony in that story is enough to make a sane person sick. :Puking

Peter_Mary

I agree PM! When I learned about this stuff I just wanted to puke !! What a sickening mess!

I wonder how many rank and file members know about this ridiculous depravity.

Oh well! I am just glad I know. No more BS for me!!

Free Thinker

[formermormon]

Other prominent church leaders were also negatively impacted by Joseph's advances. Sidney Rigdon was badly put off when Joseph asked his daughter, Nancy, to be his wife (she was a teenager, but I don't recall how old). When she refused, Joseph smeared her name. That was the turning event that really cast the future relationship between the charismatic preacher and the charismatic prophet in a deteriorating light, until Sidney eventually left Mormonism all together.

But of particular interest was Sarah Pratt, wife of Orson Pratt. Shortly after sending Orson on a mission, Joseph approached Sarah and asked her to be his polygamous wife. She refused, and Joseph again created a smear campaign of such magnitude that Orson essentially excused himself from the Church for a year over the "affair." At last, when push came to shove, Orson had to choose between his wife and the Church, and he chose the Church. He remained married to Sarah, but violated her understanding of an agreement they had, and he soon started taking on younger wives and marginalizing Sarah to the point of insignificance. Orson went on to be a champion of polygamy, and Sarah was relegated to a footnote in history, accused of being a tramp and a harlot.

The irony in that story is enough to make a sane person sick. :Puking

Peter_Mary


I grew up with familiy members mentioning my great-great-great grandmother as an outstanding example of early mormon womanhood, but then my dad, who was always a bit of a rebel, would bring up the fact that she was married to Joseph Smith AND Brigham Young and then everyone listening would get sort of quiet and change the subject. I've done a tiny bit of research, and it seems to be quite the bizarre story. She (Zina D. H. Jacobs Smith Young ) was married to my g-g-g grandfather Jacobs, and then Joseph Smith took her as a wife and sent him on a mission. When Jacobs returned, he seems to have lived with her again , but then as they were on the trek to Utah, Brigham explained that essentially, he should inherit her from Joseph, so Brigham sent grandpa Jacobs on yet ANOTHER mission. He seems to have nevertheless accepted all of this as God's will. Does anybody else know more about this one?

I would love to meet this Zina - she must have been a hotty or something.

As for Henry Jacobs - what a rube! Can you imagine putting up with that B.S.?

[silverfox]

I grew up with familiy members mentioning my great-great-great grandmother as an outstanding example of early mormon womanhood, but then my dad, who was always a bit of a rebel, would bring up the fact that she was married to Joseph Smith AND Brigham Young and then everyone listening would get sort of quiet and change the subject. I've done a tiny bit of research, and it seems to be quite the bizarre story. She (Zina D. H. Jacobs Smith Young ) was married to my g-g-g grandfather Jacobs, and then Joseph Smith took her as a wife and sent him on a mission. When Jacobs returned, he seems to have lived with her again , but then as they were on the trek to Utah, Brigham explained that essentially, he should inherit her from Joseph, so Brigham sent grandpa Jacobs on yet ANOTHER mission. He seems to have nevertheless accepted all of this as God's will. Does anybody else know more about this one?

I would love to meet this Zina - she must have been a hotty or something.

As for Henry Jacobs - what a rube! Can you imagine putting up with that B.S.?

You are probably already aware of this link but I thought others might be interested in it - it doesn't really offer any additional information, just interesting......but it does have a picture of her and states she was the 3rd General RS Pres

http://weightfamily.net/Pioneers/weight/zinad.htm

[formermormon]

You are probably already aware of this link but I thought others might be interested in it - it doesn't really offer any additional information, just interesting......but it does have a picture of her and states she was the 3rd General RS Pres

http://weightfamily.net/Pioneers/weight/zinad.htm

Silverfox - thanks! I had read that exact text elsewhere, but I hadn't seen the picture. My great aunt actually looked quite a bit like her.

The funny thing is that that document contains a bunch of raw information that is puzzling, but white-washed. For example, it mentions that she was sealed to J.S., and when - if you look at the birthdates of her children, she would have been quite pregnant at the time. Wierd. AND, it just says that her marriage to Henry "was not a happy one" - like that was the reason. It's almost comical.

[peter_mary]

Does anybody else know more about this one?

I would love to meet this Zina - she must have been a hotty or something.



Zina Diantha Huntington Jacobs Smith Young was one of the "First Ladies" of Pioneer Mormonism, and would actually have been a very interesting person to meet. The only bio I've ever read on her is in Todd Compton's "In Sacred Loneliness," which if you haven't read, you might really enjoy. It's not only a biting expose on polygamy and Joseph's incredible appetite for it, but it is also a testament to the very strong, capable women of the early Church, including Zina. The women whose stories are captured in this book are for the most part women of courage, strength, zeal and ability, and their stories are often moving.

Of course, they were also a BIG part of the whole polygamy problem, too... :rolleyes:

Peter_Mary

[free thinker]

I grew up with familiy members mentioning my great-great-great grandmother as an outstanding example of early mormon womanhood, but then my dad, who was always a bit of a rebel, would bring up the fact that she was married to Joseph Smith AND Brigham Young and then everyone listening would get sort of quiet and change the subject. I've done a tiny bit of research, and it seems to be quite the bizarre story. She (Zina D. H. Jacobs Smith Young ) was married to my g-g-g grandfather Jacobs, and then Joseph Smith took her as a wife and sent him on a mission. When Jacobs returned, he seems to have lived with her again , but then as they were on the trek to Utah, Brigham explained that essentially, he should inherit her from Joseph, so Brigham sent grandpa Jacobs on yet ANOTHER mission. He seems to have nevertheless accepted all of this as God's will. Does anybody else know more about this one?

I would love to meet this Zina - she must have been a hotty or something.

As for Henry Jacobs - what a rube! Can you imagine putting up with that B.S.?

In the book "In Sacred Loneliness" Todd Compton wrote a whole chapter on her. Quite a bit of detail. That is where I would go!!

Free Thinker

OOPS I just realized Peter Mary just gave this info!! :(

[formermormon]

In the book "In Sacred Loneliness" Todd Compton wrote a whole chapter on her. Quite a bit of detail. That is where I would go!!

Free Thinker

OOPS I just realized Peter Mary just gave this info!! :(

Thanks Peter Mary and Free Thinker. I'll have to check that book out.

OK - this is a bit off topic, but a few months ago, I read a New York Times article about John Kerry and George Bush being very distant relatives. It turns out that the common ancestor was John Lathrop - an ancestor of Zina D.H.J.S. Young's - and therefore mine too! I am related to fricking George W. Bush :Puking !!! It made me wish that those damned mormons hadn't been so good at the geneology.