Departing Moism - Stage 3 - Active Denial (of doubts)

[Born Free]

Phase 3 of the departing model is Active Denial (of niggling suspicions or doubts).

(The whole Draft Model thus far is at http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/...hp?t=288&page=2)

Ed and I are keen to see who would be interested to flesh out our (all our) understanding of the process of leaving, so propose to initiate a series of threads to elicit more information on each stage.

Ed has suggested several of the following for stage 3, and I have added some:

What things did you do to keep your mind off the doubts ?

What external activites, processes or people, encouraged your denial?

What fears/concerns/anxieties do you now see that you were too afraid to confront?

How long did this stage/s last for you?

Did this process have an impact upon you (physically/mentally/spiritually)?
We are looking to compare responses to this question to see what patterns (similarities/differences) emerge, so please cut and paste each of the questions, followed by your response/s, so that everyones responses remain in the same sequence.

Daryl

PS: Here is another thread somewhat related to this stage

http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/showthread.php?t=216 active denial

[Born Free]

What things did you do to keep your mind off the doubts ?

Get and keep busy mainly in the belief that with time and space, the answers will be forthcoming.

What external activites, processes or people, encouraged your denial?

The Mormon family trip (Families are Forever, Temple Marriage, Sealings etc) was a major factor encouraging denial for me/us.

Moism's painting of an outside world that was immoral or ammoral, which contrasted with its pre-packaged beliefs systems was factor. The prospect of crashing around trying to build a framework of meaning by myself was scary, not the least because I had exposure to no mentors in that process within Moism. In time, I came to see that Mos Package, whilst instant, was in fact seriously flawed, so its apparent attraction turned out to be illusory.

I lived in a small community, where Mormons stood out, so straying or not attending could not pass unobserved inside or out. I see that as fitting with Moism's seige mentality to keep the Saints apart, a separate (ignorant) people.

What fears/concerns/anxieties do you now see that you were too afraid to confront?

See above re beliefs.

My lack of testimony was a fear/concern/anxiety, which I believed I would overcome in time and with persistence.

How long did this stage/s last for you?

I lapsed in and out of this stage for over 15 years. It was probably most intense in my early 20s, early marriage/family years.

Did this process have an impact upon you? (physically/mentally/spiritually)?

It resulted in my failing to read widely, and in wasting many Sundays (and other days) sitting in Church listening to low speed drivel, time and energy which would have been much better spent studying philosophy, and watching The Life of Brian!

It delayed my sorting out my marriage and the issues I was brings to the marriage. That eventually nearly cost me the marriage.

One of the biggest impacts of this process was me unconsciously concluding that I was spiritually damaged goods.

[Born Free]

In theory is someone has identified a point of crisis or tension, and then sets about to explicitly suppress it, they may deal with the resultant anxiety by projecting it onto other people and other situations.

As an example, someone who has stuffed down their own disquiet, may become harsh, impatient and insensitive in their judgements of apostates, "waverers" and the "lukewarm" and become only too willing to "spew them forth".

With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight vision, did you do any of that with respect to this phase of departing Moism?

Daryl

[miss taken]

What things did you do to keep your mind off the doubts ?

Get and keep busy mainly in the belief that with time and space, the answers will be forthcoming.

What external activites, processes or people, encouraged your denial?

The Mormon family trip (Families are Forever, Temple Marriage, Sealings etc) was a major factor encouraging denial for me/us.

Moism's painting of an outside world that was immoral or ammoral, which contrasted with its pre-packaged beliefs systems was factor. The prospect of crashing around trying to build a framework of meaning by myself was scary, not the least because I had exposure to no mentors in that process within Moism. In time, I came to see that Mos Package, whilst instant, was in fact seriously flawed, so its apparent attraction turned out to be illusory.

I lived in a small community, where Mormons stood out, so straying or not attending could not pass unobserved inside or out. I see that as fitting with Moism's seige mentality to keep the Saints apart, a separate (ignorant) people.

What fears/concerns/anxieties do you now see that you were too afraid to confront?

See above re beliefs.

My lack of testimony was a fear/concern/anxiety, which I believed I would overcome in time and with persistence.

How long did this stage/s last for you?

I lapsed in and out of this stage for over 15 years. It was probably most intense in my early 20s, early marriage/family years.

Did this process have an impact upon you? (physically/mentally/spiritually)?

It resulted in my failing to read widely, and in wasting many Sundays (and other days) sitting in Church listening to low speed drivel, time and energy which would have been much better spent studying philosophy, and watching The Life of Brian!

It delayed my sorting out my marriage and the issues I was brings to the marriage. That eventually nearly cost me the marriage.

One of the biggest impacts of this process was me unconsciously concluding that I was spiritually damaged goods.


]What things did you do to keep your mind off the doubts ?

Told myself about all that was good in the church and that I could relate to

1)A belief in progression
2) A belief in the inherent goodness of Jesus
3) A belief in the importance of family life and strong marriage
4) A strong value system to live my life by
5) High expectations of personal worthiness
6) That doubts were normal
7) That others knew more than me, and I should trust them

What external activites, processes or people, encouraged your denial?

A full time job, plus college work, plus many church callings often leave you with little time to confront issues
Having a social life that almost excusively included only members of the church
Being told that one day I would get the answers I was looking for
Being discouraged from questioning, and being told I needed milk before meat
Social pressure from within the church from other members

What fears/concerns/anxieties do you now see that you were too afraid to confront?

Fear I was going to the devil if I left, Fear of rejection by others, fear of nothing to replace it with

How long did this stage/s last for you?

On and off, from age 14, but became extremely strong at 27. And finally confronted full on at 30.

Did this process have an impact upon you? (physically/mentally/spiritually)?

Felt like I wasn't an authentic, whole person, felt depressed, at the end felt suicidal. I didn't see a happy future in the church. As a teenager I was pretty dysfunctional, and felt guilty that I wasn't happy, something was up, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it, I blamed myself of course. Leaving made me whole again. (sounds like a song!!!)

Physically - tired, lacking in energy
mentally - confused, split, not at peace
spiritually - really, really thought I WAS leaving God/Jesus when I left the church. After a while of stringent research came to the conclusion that I wasn't leaving God, only the Mormon God, and that there is a big difference. I was confronting my perception which I had held for so long to be true (ie the LDS worldview).
Mary

[peter_mary]

What things did you do to keep your mind off the doubts ?

I had to do a lot of self talk, and a lot of self flagellation. I was deep in the culture of believing that any failure regarding the implementation of the gospel or its principles rested soley on my shoulders, my lack of faith, and had nothing to do with any shortcomings on the part of the Church. So I worked harder, recommitted, accepted my stripes, kept going back Sunday after Sunday, accepted more callings, wrote out those checks, and every time I got tossed off the merry-go-round of Church, I dusted myself off and dove back on.

What external activites, processes or people, encouraged your denial?

Again, the Church service was a biggy, but my wife was such a deeply committed Mormon that I just deffered always to her conviction. She was quick to point out my gospel shortcomings (something for which she has appologized profusely in the past few years), and because she was 20 more years in the Church than I was, I always assumed her position was right, and that I was still "just developing." I was like a wild colt that had to be "broken."

What a tragic metaphore....

What fears/concerns/anxieties do you now see that you were too afraid to confront?

As I said on the Stage 2 thread, my biggest fears centered on the belief that I wasn't good enough, that I would be found unworthy when I stood before the judgement bar of God. I lived in fear of that time.

Further, I lived in great fear that I would be around for the Second Coming. I knew that I would find myself in that situation discussed in the scriptures where "two men were walking, and one was twinkled away, and the other left alone." That was going to me and my wife...she would be twinkled away to celestial glory, and was going to be left behind to experience all of the horrible, horrible suffering that would destroy the world just prior to the millenium.

And just to make sure that I could never escape this particular anxiety, I worried that if it didn't happen in my time, it would CERTAINLY happen in the lives of my children or my grandchildren, and I worried about what a horrible thing it may have been to curse my children with having to experience this horrific and confusing time.

Man...I was not a healthy person...

How long did this stage/s last for you?

It's actually about the same as Stage 2, because really, this was all wrapped up in Stage 2. The niggles and the denial were all part of the same existential fear and anxiety of this time for me...ages 26 to 32, or therabouts. At about age 32, I began to surrender, and realized that whatever would be would be. And that probably created an environment in my mind that was conducive to moving along to Stage 4.

Did this process have an impact upon you (physically/mentally/spiritually)?

Um...yeah! I was physically unhealthy, mentally distressed, and spiritually terrified. Taking care of my body was immaterial, because this was a temporary probation. Mentally, I was ripped apart by the incompatability of my strengths and weaknesses in comparison to what the Church and God expected of me, and spiritually I was doomed.

Paul

[silverfox]

I am so impressed with the responses to this thread. The responses have been right on with my experiences.

I become kind of physically ill thinking back to the turmoil. I feel so GREAT now, it's hard to believe life was so tough during that timeframe. (not that it won't be tough again)

[nate]

What things did you do to keep your mind off the doubts ?

I played video games and watched movies as much as possible. I escaped into harmless fiction. I pretty much did anything that diverted my attention away from myself.

What fears/concerns/anxieties do you now see that you were too afraid to confront?

A deep, deep fear of causing my mother emotional pain. I simply could not understand that she was the only person that could control her emotions--her level of happiness. I felt that her heaven depended on me, because I knew she would not be happy in heaven without me. I was stuck in a conundrum and had no idea what to do.

How long did this stage/s last for you?

I was constantly in and out of stages 2 and 3, virtually existing in both at the same time for 4-5 years.

Did this process have an impact upon you? (physically/mentally/spiritually)?

Most definitely. This stage, in combination with the previous, put me in a state of mental conflict that was unbearable. I had to make it stop. I had no choice but to make it stop, yet I had no idea how.

[bigeddy]

For me, this stage was so entwined with stage 2 that it has been hard to seperate them. I would bop back and forth almost on an hourly basis. My study of the church and my close association with the leaders faced me hourly with the questions and nigglers. Then I would go into a stage 3 mode and decide it was all because I was not as worthy as others and I would redouble my efforts. On to the questions.

What things did you do to keep your mind off the doubts ?

I would decide a couple of things:
1. The nigglers were a result of the inadequacy and growing nature of members--just like me.
2. This may be one of those issues upon which "further light and knowledge" has not been given. So I would file the niggle away in the "file in the back of my head."

These would effect me by reinforcing the notion that it was me where the inadequacy rested. So I would try harder. I remember noting at one point that I was like the draft horse in Huxley's book "Animal Farm." When faced with issues I would say "I will just work harder." For months I fasted every Thursday and prayed to understand and be given a testimony of the atonement. It just continued to seem ridiculous to me.

I would try harder to be a father, teacher of the gospel, ward leader, etc. etc. etc. as the depression continued and got worse. Like the horse in Animal Farm (who finally just keeled over dead) I finally could go no further.

What external activites, processes or people, encouraged your denial?

As stated in my response concerning stage 2, I continued to see the way leaders behaved to be totally ungodly and how they had justified it completely. It became clear to me that they were motivated by a completely different psychological mechanism than I. As a teacher I would pray every day that I would be motivated only by my love for the students. I guess that finally worked because my love for them was what led me out. My problems were never, ever, doctrinal. They were sociological and concerned the social and pscyhological impact the church has on its members. The fact that the effect is not healthy beyond a certain point just became too much to sustain a belief in it.

What fears/concerns/anxieties do you now see that you were too afraid to confront?

I hesitated for years to fully confront the fact that the problem was not in me but that the system (moism in toto) was the problem. I was fine. Moism is a lower level system of belief that may be advantageous when a person is in a lower level of development but fails completely (as far as adequacy) when a person moves to a post-conventional understanding. Hence "growing BEYOND mormonism".

How long did this stage/s last for you?

It was so intertwined (as stated above) with stage 2 that the 2 lasted about the same amount of time. From age 19 to 41.

Did this process have an impact upon you (physically/mentally/spiritually)?

YES and DOUBLE YES!! I desperately needed a site such as this (or if I had been able to encounter someone who could lead me) to get me beyond that bopping back and forth from "niggle, niggle" to "I am inadequate." So much of the "I am inadequate thing (for decades) was wrapped in terrible depression and further shame.

Ed

[dogzilla]

What things did you do to keep your mind off the doubts ?
I was in college, so I drank a lot and did a lot of drugs. And fooled around with a lot of boys. I just sort of put the church right out of my mind and went on with the college experimentation thing.

What external activites, processes or people, encouraged your denial?
See, I think I really sort of glossed over this stage. While in college, I moved my "permanent residence" to my never-mo mother's house in order to obtain a better financial aid package. Once I did that, I had removed myself from mormon culture completely. I was in denial in the sense that I still had guilt about the partying I was doing because I still sort of believed there would be dire eternal consequences for what now seems to me to be mostly normal college student behavior. I think it just took some maturity to see the bigger picture.

What fears/concerns/anxieties do you now see that you were too afraid to confront?
Well, since I now believe I'm an atheist, I think I was afraid to accept that there might be no afterlife. I also couldn't get this idea: if you don't believe in a Christian god, you don't have to believe in a Christian anti-god. In other words, it took me many years to figure out that Satan is a Christian concept.

How long did this stage/s last for you?
Probably not very long. Couple years at most, when I was sobered up enough to give it any thought. :p (Hey, I was partying in school!)

Did this process have an impact upon you (physically/mentally/spiritually)?
Oh, I might have accidentally killed myself doing drugs and drinking in college had I not had a guilt mechanism in place to slow me down a little. :D In general, I believe the process is healthy and served to open my mind to other possiblities I hadn't considered while under the influence of The Morg.

[elder_nomo]

What did you do to keep your mind off the doubts?
my "real" doubts started with the first temple visit. but then i was off to my mission. no time for doubting in the LTM (language training mission).
in the mission field, i tried to concentrate on the good we were doing by bringing the gospel to people. that was more important than any doubts i had.
kept going back to that testimony - i "knew" the church was true [didn't i?], so nothing else mattered.
threw myself intensely into the missionary work at times. but it didn't really help so i was not consistent. in fact, it often was the cause of yet more doubts.

What external activities, processes or people encouraged your denial?
being in the mission field meant having to be an example to nonmembers. to show any doubt would have put their eternal salvation at risk and would have been extremely selfish.
missionary companions were relying on me - couldn't drag them down with me.

What fears/concerns/anxieties do you now see that you were too afraid to confront?
i was deathly afraid of not completing my mission :
i would have been humiliated in front of my fellow mishies, friends at home, the ward, everybody.
my never-mo family would never accept the gospel.
failing the mission would mean i'd be likely to fail life in general (because "a mission is a microcosm of your life")
and the big one - i had the gospel, the priesthood, a testimony - deny the holy ghost and it's outer darkness, baby.

How long did this stage last for you?
off and on, the whole 2 years of my mission. there were huge ups and downs. wild swinging between stage 3 and stage 4.

Did this process have an impact upon you (physically/mentally/spiritually)?
yes, a huge impact. mainly exhaustion, due to the mental gymnastics required to bear your testimony all day and doubt it all night.
could not deny the testimony, but could not get rid of the doubts.
there was a period where i would lie in bed at night and pray to God to take my life just to end the doubts.

[silverfox]

What did you do to keep your mind off the doubts?
my "real" doubts started with the first temple visit. but then i was off to my mission. no time for doubting in the LTM (language training mission).
in the mission field, i tried to concentrate on the good we were doing by bringing the gospel to people. that was more important than any doubts i had.
kept going back to that testimony - i "knew" the church was true [didn't i?], so nothing else mattered.
threw myself intensely into the missionary work at times. but it didn't really help so i was not consistent. in fact, it often was the cause of yet more doubts.

What external activities, processes or people encouraged your denial?
being in the mission field meant having to be an example to nonmembers. to show any doubt would have put their eternal salvation at risk and would have been extremely selfish.
missionary companions were relying on me - couldn't drag them down with me.

What fears/concerns/anxieties do you now see that you were too afraid to confront?
i was deathly afraid of not completing my mission :
i would have been humiliated in front of my fellow mishies, friends at home, the ward, everybody.
my never-mo family would never accept the gospel.
failing the mission would mean i'd be likely to fail life in general (because "a mission is a microcosm of your life")
and the big one - i had the gospel, the priesthood, a testimony - deny the holy ghost and it's outer darkness, baby.

How long did this stage last for you?
off and on, the whole 2 years of my mission. there were huge ups and downs. wild swinging between stage 3 and stage 4.

Did this process have an impact upon you (physically/mentally/spiritually)?
yes, a huge impact. mainly exhaustion, due to the mental gymnastics required to bear your testimony all day and doubt it all night.
could not deny the testimony, but could not get rid of the doubts.
there was a period where i would lie in bed at night and pray to God to take my life just to end the doubts.

I can't imagine experiencing doubts while under all the pressures of a mission. I think I would be running down the street naked, yelling and pulling out my hair. heh heh Okay not really but it was a fun visual for a quick second. (I used to imagine myself going nuts like this while in several of these stages)

[kreleia]

What things did you do to keep your mind off the doubts?
For the most part, I ignored them. I usually went back to church with a strong determination - "This time, I will actually listen in Sunday School." "This time, I will not be so negative about Relief Society - there must be something positive besides recipes and child-care to be gleaned from it." "This time, I will pay attention to the talks during Sacrament Meeting." "This time, I will go to more activities and become more involved." "This time, I will go out of my way to find friends in my ward." "Oh, and this time, I will maintain full tithing."

What external activites, processes or people, encouraged your denial?
In Salt Lake City, the better question is, what didn't encourage it? But to stay on the topic, my family, finding occassional genuine interest in some of the church activities (dinners, crafts, etc.), and - strangely enough - paying tithing. It really honestly seemed that when we would pay our 10%, something would happen that would push us through financially. Paying it was often a terrifying prospect, because we simply didn't have much money to begin with. But - and I honestly don't know if it was karma, luck, coincidence, or if we just told the right people - we were always able to pull through. The extra money would kick in from somewhere at just the right time.

Being in harmony with my family was also a big factor. With my parents both being so strongly active, and so believing, it was hard to think of not having that same harmony. It was very scary. Also, genuinely wanting to be with them forever. I still believe this happens, although not via the Mormon version.

What fears/concerns/anxieties do you now see that you were too afraid to confront?
Facing myself. Deeply and honestly looking at myself and asking the question "Do I really believe this? Or do I merely want to believe it?" I also feared estrangement. In the majority-Mormon society that Utah has, many people stop believing but never leave or even stop attending the Church, simply for the fact that they would be completely ostracized if they did. They keep their beliefs to themselves. I had struggled all of my life to "belong" socially - at least I belonged religiously.

How long did this stage/s last for you?
About a year-and-a-half past the first time I went through Stage 2. Long enough for me to really get back into it, actually find my husband (which, I wasn't actually looking to do, but was instead preparing to go on a mission), get married in the Salt Lake temple, and then finally get back down to reality with school and work.

After that, it pretty much coincided with Stage 2 for the span of about 5 to 6 years. It was on-again off-again many many times. It was like I couldn't make up my mind. Deep down, I wanted everything to be true, but I needed to really know this for myself.

Did this process have an impact upon you (physically/mentally/spiritually)?
Yes. It made me uncertain of everything - especially myself and my own spirituality. It helped push me onto the downward spiral of depression - depression which, although very common in Mormon society, seems to be genetically inherited in my family. But everything also has a trigger. I'm not sure if the "trigger" had already been sprung (so to speak), and this just aggravated my already existing depression, or if my bouncing back and forth was the trigger. But until college graduation and the "Now what?" stage of uncertainty in my life, the depression seemed nonexistent. Interestingly enough, this is when I discovered that the physical manifestation of my depression - aside from being on an emotional tidal wave that could break at any moment - was sleeping. A lot. As in, a full 8-to-10 hours of sleep at night, followed easily by a 4-hour nap during the day, and never feeling rested. Always still exhausted.

Spiritually, I knew I was human and imperfect, but I wondered if I had some kind of innate flaw - some kind of spiritual scar somewhere that didn't allow me to progress beyond what seemed to only be the beginning stages of faith. I wondered why the Book of Mormon never held my interest - to the point that I even told a Sunday School teacher (in my teens) that I couldn't read it for 15-seconds a day (talk about a guilt trip from that!). I wondered why I found it difficult to get on my knees every night and pray (and instead only did on occassion). I wondered why everyone else found so much inspiration and peace from General Conference talks, when I couldn't stay awake through them to begin with, much less read them later. I wondered why I felt so much contempt for the women who truly enjoyed Relief Society, and so much disgust for Relief Society in general.

I also wondered how it was that the Mormon society, in which everyone is "righteous" and "saved," could be so downright awful to it's own - in terms of cliques, status, material wealth and even geographic location. (a rant for another time... I need sleep!)

edits: stinkin' mark-up codes. :p

[aether]

I'm sure this doesn't help your little survey very much.. but I didn't go through this stage. I don't remember ever rejecting my niggling suspicions. I went right from stage two to stage four, I believe. It never crossed my mind to doubt my doubts.

[Born Free]

I'm sure this doesn't help your little survey very much.. but I didn't go through this stage. I don't remember ever rejecting my niggling suspicions. I went right from stage two to stage four, I believe. It never crossed my mind to doubt my doubts.
aether,

Hey, not only do you have the arrogance to bring into question the Daryl Model of Mo Stages of Recovery, :Crazy: but now you point out that I was too stupid to stay with my niggles long enough to work out they were valid and leave without recycling. :eek:

Really nice type you are!!!!!!!!!!! :cool: Who invited you???

Hey, no apologies necessary. You are the 2nd person I am aware of who was smart enough to not do Stage 3. I am envious.

Daryl

[helemon]

What things did you do to keep your mind off the doubts ?
Not sure. I think I just became progressively more skeptical of the church. I remember reading the BoM trying to make sense of it, trying to find answers but the more I read the more things didn't seem to add up. I had read the BoM growing up but not with a particularly critical eye. I had no real reason to. It was the only reality I was aware of.

I never had a come to Jesus period where I tried to become super righteous to overwhelm my growing doubts.

What external activites, processes or people, encouraged your denial?

Nothing in particular that I can recall. I didn't make my struggles known to anyone besides my wife until I was out of UT. My major discoveries of doctrinal issue and historical inconsistencies occurred while in grad school outside of UT. While we did live in an apartment complex with a lot of other Mormons I faced little external pressure to deny what I was discovering. Even when I discussed my concerns with the Bishop and Stake President there was little that they tried to do or that I would let them do to guilt me or pressure me into ignoring the questions I had.


What fears/concerns/anxieties do you now see that you were too afraid to confront?
Primary concern/fear/anxiety was hurting or offending family members. Several of my cousins had left the church prior to me so this may have softened the blow.


How long did this stage/s last for you?
Not sure. I don't recall active denial stage. Maybe it will surface later in life as a repressed memory. :eek:

Did this process have an impact upon you (physically/mentally/spiritually)?
The impact was a consuming desire to search out more information about various issues. It interfered with my school work and placed a strain on my marriage. But I am not sure if that behavior is a form of denial or not? I wasn't running from the information, I was consumed by trying to understand it and make sense of it all.

[aether]

Really nice type you are!!!!!!!!!!! :cool: Who invited you???


Ahhh! I'm sorry! I take it all back!

:)

Really though, thanks for your compliments. Honestly though it was probably because I was exposed to questions earlier. My parents were very open-minded.. so I didn't have half the dilemma most of you did. It's not my fault, I swear! ;)

[Born Free]

Did this process have an impact upon you (physically/mentally/spiritually)?
The impact was a consuming desire to search out more information about various issues. It interfered with my school work and placed a strain on my marriage. But I am not sure if that behavior is a form of denial or not? I wasn't running from the information, I was consumed by trying to understand it and make sense of it all.
helemon,

Was this like compulsive catch-up???

Daryl

[helemon]

helemon,

Was this like compulsive catch-up???

Daryl

Perhaps. I hadn't had much access to or exposure to anything other than the quad and church magazines growing up, so when I bought Infobases with it's enormous collection of books that past leaders had written and pioneer journals and I think it even had a copy of View of the Hebrews, plus the ability to search all of the books for specific topics, it became very engrosing. Personally I think the first version of Infobases was better in many ways than the subsequent versions. I was amazed by all the information that was not discussed in church or dismissed. I was amazed at the amount of filtering that they engaged in. I was also amazed when reading NMKMH how well documented it was. Yeah she did a bit of speculating about what was going on in the mind of Joseph but there was a lot of material from official church sources.

[helemon]

Ahhh! I'm sorry! I take it all back!

:)

Really though, thanks for your compliments. Honestly though it was probably because I was exposed to questions earlier. My parents were very open-minded.. so I didn't have half the dilemma most of you did. It's not my fault, I swear! ;)

I wonder if the coming generation will have an easier time leaving the church because modern education and mass media is providing them with so much more information about astronomy, geology, archeology, paleontology, world religions and cultures, that they will have a harder time getting sucked into a magical world view of a particualr religious sect. But I do think there is going to be some major religious struggles in the next decade or so as people tire of waiting for the rapture and start looking for other perspectives that help them make sense of life, the universe and everything. Sorry couldn't help that last line with the movie coming out today. :D

[kreleia]

But I do think there is going to be some major religious struggles in the next decade or so as people tire of waiting for the rapture and start looking for other perspectives that help them make sense of life, the universe and everything. Sorry couldn't help that last line with the movie coming out today. :D

They just need to embrace the concept of 42 in order to find pure spiritual fulfillment. ;)

[miss taken]

I wonder if the coming generation will have an easier time leaving the church because modern education and mass media is providing them with so much more information about astronomy, geology, archeology, paleontology, world religions and cultures, that they will have a harder time getting sucked into a magical world view of a particualr religious sect. But I do think there is going to be some major religious struggles in the next decade or so as people tire of waiting for the rapture and start looking for other perspectives that help them make sense of life, the universe and everything. Sorry couldn't help that last line with the movie coming out today. :D

Don't know if you know of the British programme. 'Dr Who' He is an intergalactic Dr. The old stuff is truly dated, but a new series has just come out with Christopher Ecclestone as Dr Who, and a multi million pound special effects budget. It is very, very goooooood!!!!!!!!

Mary

[Born Free]

Don't know if you know of the British programme. 'Dr Who' He is an intergalactic Dr. The old stuff is truly dated, but a new series has just come out with Christopher Ecclestone as Dr Who, and a multi million pound special effects budget. It is very, very goooooood!!!!!!!!

Mary
Mary,

Now you're talking.

Dr Who and Hitchhiker's Guide have to rate among the top British contributions to civilisation. Add the Goons and Monty Python, too.

I am interested to see how good the Hitchhikers movie is, but still love the original radio classics. The new robot sounds a pale copy of the original. Now there IS an acute case of depression for you! Remember his morose remark along the lines "You'd be depressed too if you had been left standing in an intergalactic carpark for a million years!"

Come to think of it, that is probably why Utah is so bl@@dy depressed. Mormons have little to no sense of humour. Certainly can't laugh at themslves very well, unless it is beating up on their women.

I just watched Life and Death of Peter Sellars last night on DVD. Tragic figure.

Daryl

[miss taken]

Mary,

Now you're talking.

Dr Who and Hitchhiker's Guide have to rate among the top British contributions to civilisation. Add the Goons and Monty Python, too.

I am interested to see how good the Hitchhikers movie is, but still love the original radio classics. The new robot sounds a pale copy of the original. Now there IS an acute case of depression for you! Remember his morose remark along the lines "You'd be depressed too if you had been left standing in an intergalactic carpark for a million years!"

Come to think of it, that is probably why Utah is so bl@@dy depressed. Mormons have little to no sense of humour. Certainly can't laugh at themslves very well, unless it is beating up on their women.

Daryl

:D Daryl, funny how my 6 year old, with no pushing from us, dived straight behind the sofa when something scary came up on Dr Who, uncanny...like history repeating itself. (Does he REALLY think the sofa is going to protect him from those monsters!!)

I love on Hitchhikers that earth gets blown away to make way for a, what was it???intergalactic dual carriage way (can't remember), puts us all in perspective I think!!!. Hitchhikers is definitely one of hubbys favourites - we will be going this week sometime. Have to see how it pans out. Alan Rickman plays the voice of the robot, and he can do morose and dead pan really well!!!
Mary

[gracie]

What things did you do to keep your mind off the doubts ?

I never had conscious doubts. Only little niggly thoughts once in a while my whole life that would all be answered in the hereafter.

I was very devout, very busy in service and study and listening over and over to conference talks. etc. I really should've gotten out more instead. :duh I was a pretty intense and serious person about the gospel. I jsut kept living the commandments and trusted that I'd understand one day.

What external activites, processes or people, encouraged your denial?

I was raised to listen to your elders, obey the priesthood, throw yourself into the service of god, associate with members, trust the leaders; I just stayed as active and busy as I could and it would all work out.

What fears/concerns/anxieties do you now see that you were too afraid to confront?

I was too afraid to make my own decisions. I was too afraid to trust my own instincts ("the natural man is an enemy to god"-somewhere in the BOM). I was too fearful of the "world" which was a slippery slope to evil. I was pretty naive and had very low self esteem. Although, I put up a good front, and have surprisingly always been considered confident and outgoing- go figure. Of course, I worked hard to have that image, as I felt I would better be able to serve the lord if people respected me somehow. I was afraid that I was not good enough, and if I ever expressed doubt, everyone would know that I was spiritually flawed. (I really should have gotten out more!)

How long did this stage/s last for you?
Denial was a latent stage I lived my life in I guess. I jumped from actual, conscious doubts to total disbelief and rejection in a matter of weeks.

Did this process have an impact upon you (physically/mentally/spiritually)?

Not sure how to answer this considering the circimstances. I guess for practical reasons, I went from real doubt to the next step, without trying to deny or suppress what I suspected and then knew. I read voraciously every night till 1 or 2 am for a few weeks to soak up everything I could find on the church.

I wanted answers and was ready for whatever I found. It was cathartic and freeing. It all clicked that I should listened to those niggles long ago! It was very affirming to find real answers and so many things fell into place in a very short time.

[lunaverse]

What things did you do to keep your mind off the doubts ?

I rationalized and shelved.

What external activites, processes or people, encouraged your denial?

Everyone involved in the Church. Family, parents, church literature, meetings.

What fears/concerns/anxieties do you now see that you were too afraid to confront?

Death. Eternity. Family rejection. Being shamed. Change.

How long did this stage/s last for you?

It's difficult to say when this "started" and "ended". Every doubt up until fall of 2000 was fairly easy to manage. Some events that gave me shaky ground were: 1. My separation/divorce at age 20, 2. My participation in a vampire role playing game a couple of years later, 3. My summer with non-member friends shortly after that, 4. My repentance process, and spiritual event that told me I'd find the answers in the temple, 5. Going to the temple and getting an answer I'd find my soulmate within 1 month, 6. Thinking I'd found my soulmate, then 3 months later (after going on a few dates with him) finding out he was already engaged, 7. Getting really pissed off at God and removing my Garmies (IIRC, that was For Good, I don't think I ever put them back on), 8. Reconciling a little bit with God, but not fully, 9. Staying only semi-active until the major Disconfirming Event (only a couple of years).

Did this process have an impact upon you (physically/mentally/spiritually)?

Mentally and Spiritually, yes.

[sakerra]

What things did you do to keep your mind off the doubts ?
I figured the doubts must have been because I had messed up somehow, so I doubled my efforts to be good. I started putting in two hour scripture study sessions daily, paying 20% tithing, fasting at least one other time per month besides fast Sunday, praying more often, making sure I got to every activity on time if not early, I surrounded myself with LDS music, attended the temple more frequently, and all that jazz.

What external activites, processes or people, encouraged your denial?
They didn't necessairly realize it, but my Young Woman leaders, the older Young Women who I had looked up to, Seminary teacher, parents, and myself. I wasn't ready to accept it. In many ways I still don't think I am ready.

What fears/concerns/anxieties do you now see that you were too afraid to confront?
I had...issues in my past that I wasn't ready to confront. In my eyes at the time I had repented and I was afraid that if the church wasn't true than maybe I was still guilty for it.
I was scared to even think that there might not be a God.
The very idea of denying the Prophet Joseph Smith made me physically sick. I had felt I knew the man through books I had read about him.
More than anything though, I wanted redemption. I always blamed myself for things that happened when I was little. I never told anyone because I felt so guilty. I couldn't face that without Christ my life was completely worthless. It never even occured to me that I could have Christ in my life and not be LDS.

How long did this stage/s last for you?
A year and a half about. I still find myself here upon occasion. As I said, I am still not sure how ready I am for all of this.

Did this process have an impact upon you (physically/mentally/spiritually)?

Yes. I was mentally tormenting myself. Pushing myself farther and farther into the church as I came to accept that none of it was true. It was spiritually disasterous. When I lost the LDS church, I lost it all. I lost God and Christ. I do believe Christ was a person who lived. There is evidence for that, but not my saviour. As I said earlier. things had happened and I now had no one to save me from myself and no one to blame but myself. As for physically, not really unless you count pretending to be sick later into the stage to get out of church because I felt like a hypocrit there.

[Born Free]

Sakerra,

I had recalled you were young, but not as young as I found when I checked out your details against your name, in your profile.

Take everything I said about courage, guts, wisdom etc on the other thread and multiple it by 4.

There are few old wrinklies around here who I am sure would be delighted to mentor you. Indeed, I am sure there are several about half my age, who might better relate to what you are going through. Please don't be reticent about asking for assistance if you feel for one second that you are out of your depth.

All those in favour say ayeeeeeeeeee!

Daryl