Departing Moism - Stage 4 - Significant destabliszing event/s

[Born Free]

Stage 4 of the departing model is Significant Destabilizing Event/s - involves some critical incident that throws one full-long out of the denial stage.

This may involve an event which impacts us deeply, and we find the Church's pat response simply does not have resonance for us. We experience it as deeply deficient to address our needs and provide deep satisfaction.

DIALECTIC: The event (or series of events) causes us to rethink the opposition and return the word “perhaps” to our seeking of truth. We begin to believe that the opposition has something to offer that may help solve our problems.

(The whole Draft Model thus far is at http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/...hp?t=288&page=2)

Ed and I are keen to see who would be interested to flesh out our (all our) understanding of the process of leaving, so propose to initiate a series of threads to elicit more information on each stage.

Ed has suggested several of the following for stage 4, and I have added some:

What kind of destabilizing events did you experience?

What insights do you now have into this/these event/s, now some time down the road?

How do they relate to the nigglers already experienced in stage 2?

What age were you at the time?

Did you find other members could offer you anything meaningful to help you cope with your distress/dilema

We are looking to compare responses to this question to see what patterns (similarities/differences) emerge, so please cut and paste each of the questions, followed by your response/s, so that everyones responses remain in the same sequence.

Daryl

PS: Here are other threads somewhat related to this stage:

http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/showthread.php?t=44 Significant issue
http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/showthread.php?t=147 Joe Smith blunders

[Born Free]

What kind of destabilizing events did you experience?

Over many years, I witnessed grossly inept responses to sexual abuse on several occasions. Some of these involved abuse of leaderhip power.

This was related and connected to what, as I matured, I figured was a very conservative and inept approach to sexuality generally.

I/we started to do more things outside teh Church - courses and workshops, and in several of those I had what Mormonism would label "spiritual' experiences.

I had started to read more widely and had become aware how much teh Church had laundered its history, and how compromised its response was to Feminism, Blacks and the Priesthood, etc.

I then had an affair, for which I eventually confronted a Church Court. I chose to attend. In it I was asked if I had a testimany - No. Did I believe JS was a prophet - No. Thier response was to ex me, and invite me to come back if I ever changed my mind.

I never changed my mind; indeed I never looked back.

Ironically, the move away from the Church probably saved my marriage, and enabled me to move through several unresolved aspects of my personal development.

What insights do you now have into this/these event/s, now some time down the road?

I now suspect that the affair was an unconscious solution to a problem I could not solve on the conscious level. I felt stuck between a rock and a hard place, like a wild animal frozen in the headlights.

How do they relate to the nigglers already experienced in stage 2?

Many are directly related.

What age were you at the time?

I was 36 or 37

Did you find other members could offer you anything meaningful to help you cope with your distress/dilema?

I was generally afraid to talk to others, and to teh extent I did, they offered superficial assistance. I now believe they were more concerned to maintain their comfort than really engage with my concerns. Generally they offered pat answers (fast, pray, rakka, rakka!)

Evenutally, I found help in therapy and in reading books on cults. I then realised how well Moism met the criteria in many ways.

Daryl

[bigeddy]

Before replying to the list of questions on this thread I would like to tag onto what Daryl has written and encourage the post-mos on this site to respond to this (and other threads related to this issue of our individual courses out of the church) so we can have a wider range of experiences to draw upon. Some of us would like to use these responses to perhaps write a book that could be a resource--a balanced resource--to help others who are struggling with their experiences with the church. PLEASE RESPOND TO THESE QUESTIONS.

What kind of destabilizing events did you experience?

I experienced a huge number (even hundreds) of events that would qualify under this question. The series of these events had a common thread. They reinforced my suspicion that all was not as it "should" be if leaders were motivated by the same type love and compassion that is taught by the church and by "the Savior." They led me to finally conclude that the church is merely an institution run by masculine energy and designed to grant power to a select group of men so they could gratify a lust for power and control over other humans. I realized that there is no special power, no particularly special understandings, no divine process operating within the church. It is another instituion that formalizes and operationalizes a power and control structure. An instituion that allows (and promotes) a process that allows unevolved men to hide their ineptitude, their lack of knowledge and their power motives behind a "priesthood calling". Several events stand out.

1. My mission president was a joke. He knew little, followed blindly and as a leader he was a total disappointment.

2. As a seminary teacher (full-time teacher in the released time seminary program in Utah) I would eat lunch with the other teachers. There was one teacher whose knowledge of the church and its teachings was profound and impressive to me. One day as we were lunching together he stated; "If women really knew their position; if they only knew that they are just chattel, they would be shocked." I was horrified by the lack of understanding and compassion in his statement. Coming from a man whose scholarship and "knowledge" base I had respected, this statement became a major destabalizing event for me.

3. As the Church Education System Coordinator in a section of Florida I experienced the wrath of many leaders over my success and ability to work with teenagers. Rather than be grateful for the help they were receiving in accomplishing what I thought were our common goals they were often angry and tried to silence me and hinder my efforts to do "the Lord's work". This came from Bishops, Stake Presidents and Regional Representatives.

4. Teaching at BYU. Living squarely in the middle of the bastion of Mormonism (BYU and Provo) allowed me to see fully the ramifications of LDS doctrine and practice. Not only did they not lead to evolution of people but held growth to a minimum and aided everyone in keeping things at a black/white simplistic level so folks did not have to face realities, complexities and fears.

5. FInding out that my father had molested my daughters. Many have believed that my leaving the church was related to this alone. For a long time I fought the notion that this had anything to do with it because I did not want anyone to think I left the church because I "was offended". I did not want my path to be reduced to that. However, I have to admit that this was a major destabalizer for me. Not because I was offended by it but because my father had been called to be a Bishop after and during his abuses to my children and other children, some in the ward he was presiding over.

5. While at BYU I was involved in a serious issue that challenged my future professionally and personally. The response (from BYU "bretheren) was not only unloving but vindictive, ungodly, unkind and totally unevolved.

6. My older daughters both became pregnant within one year. Much of this was a response to the abuse by my father and the fact that he was honored by the church (called as a Bishop) and by the rest of the family. My daughter stated at one point "He abused me and God called him to be a Bishop--I guess that tells me where I stand." The response of the church and my extended family to my unwed daughters being pregnant was a huge destabalizing event.

What insights do you now have into this/these event/s, now some time down the road?

I see them clearly for what they are. They are indications that my nigglers were always right on the mark. And, they serve to teach me other important factors concerning the church and concerning human evolution.

How do they relate to the nigglers already experienced in stage 2?

These events clarified and placed explanation marks behind my nigglers. They verified at each step that my suspicions were accurate insights into the reality of what was actually going on.

What age were you at the time?

THese events occurred from the time I was 20 until I left the church at approx. age 41.

Did you find other members could offer you anything meaningful to help you cope with your distress/dilema?

I looked desperately for support and help in dealing with these but found none within the church. I encountered only narrowness and fear from members along with blaming me for struggling. I felt entirely abandoned. I stated often that I have given my life in support of the church and its mission and as soon as I struggle and have need of support everyone in the church runs and hides or throws rocks at me.

Ed

[peter_mary]

What kind of destabilizing events did you experience?

I've probably told this story before, but I'll summarize it here, since it is relative to the question.

At about age 32, I got a new assignment at work in which I became the person who was responsible for Equal Opportunity and Diversity at work . For those who may not be familiar with what I'm talking about, this is the function that works with Human Resources and management to ensure that a) the agency is not discriminating against people on the basis of race, national origin, sex, disability, religion, etc., and b) that we value people for the unique contributions, capitalizing on their differences rather than squelching them.

Early on, I wrote a paper for distribution to all employees comparing the contributions of Martin Luther King Jr. to the contributions of the founding fathers (for those who are not from the United States, I'm speaking of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Samual Adams, Benjamin Franklin, etc.) Shortly thereafter, I was confronted by a Native American employee who was furious that the EEO/Diversity Program manager apparently had no concept of the doctrine of manifest destiny, and was oblivious to the lack of respect many Native Americans had for "the founding fathers."

This shook me up pretty badly, and I gained a glimmer of the boundaries of my white, male, Mormon, privileged paradigms. So I launched on a personal quest to understand a) what manifest destiny meant, and b) how that impacted the culture in which I lived.

I was shocked. But most importantly, after a very intensive course of reading about Native American culture, history, biography, spirituality, art, medicine, literature, etc, I began to get a sense for a whole other way of viewing the universe, and my place in relation to it. When that happened, the whole universe popped open, and I began to realize that the way we think about our place in the universe may be as much about paradigm as it is about "truth."

So then I began a course of reading on religious history, and this led to some serious realizations about that paradigm. And then more study on culture, and a whole course of reading on Quantum physics, chaos, comlexity...and then eastern thought...and before I knew it, I was constructing a new view of the universe, one that was wholly and completely different than the Plan of Salvation.

But I was still a Mormon. Weird, huh? My whole world view was shaken up, and was rebuilding, but I hadn't yet questioned whether or not the gospel was true. At this point, I assumed that the gospel must contain all these new truths, and my salvation was dependent upon my making it all fit. And I knew that if I ever crossed the line out of the Church, my marriage was in deep trouble. I couldn't go there.

I recall being on a walk with my wife, trying to talk about the thinking I was doing, and she stopped me, looked me square in the face, and said, "Paul, at what point can you no longer call yourself a Mormon?" I was shaken.

So I decided I better read about Church history, because SURELY that would bring me back...

Thankfully, my dear wife began THAT course of study with me, after we read "Mormon America" by the Ostlings.

What insights do you now have into this/these event/s, now some time down the road?

Mostly, I see what an evolution it has been. And I understand that I would have been very unlikely, at least at that stage of the game, to really question the Church itself because of the cost it would impose on my marriage. For those who have become familiar with my story, you may recall that I joined the Church for this woman I loved, and I would have stayed in it for her, too. And it likely would not have even seemed like a sacrifice, because I didn't know about the existential angst I was living in, and that it didn't have to be that way. It was just my reality, and it could have stayed my reality until I dropped dead of a bleading ulcer or a massive heart attack.

How do they relate to the nigglers already experienced in stage 2?

I'm not sure that my destabilizing event actually had very much to do with the nigglers of stage 2 at all. All it did was release me from the fears and insecurities of those nigglers. (I say "All" as if it were no big deal, but it was a HUGE deal!)

What age were you at the time?

I began this extensive course of reading at about age 32, and continued for about 5 years while remaining in the Church. I even consented to being in the Bishopric at age 37 because I believed it would help me focus in the gospel and bring me "back into the fold." My reading during ages 37 and 38 brought me out of the Church, and my reading since then has confirmed and validated my decision to do so.

Did you find other members could offer you anything meaningful to help you cope with your distress/dilema

Not at all...

Peter_Mary

[dogzilla]

What kind of destabilizing events did you experience?

I was baptised at age 14. At age 15, I was sexually molested by my step-brother, who was 30, married and had three kids. The entire rotten story is posted on page 3 of the "Introduce Yourselves" thread, if you care to read about the gorey details. Suffice it to say, that the major destabilizing event was being disciplined by the Bishopric post-abuse. I was put on "probation" for my own sexual abuse. After six months, when I was to be reinstated, the bishop extended the probation because I "haven't forgiven yourself yet." For what? I still would like to know, seeing as how I didn't do anything wrong in the first place. To this day, I still cannot believe in a god who holds 15 year old innocent girls responsible, even in part, for their own sexual abuse. It's simply unconscionable. (My spelling suspect on that last...)

What insights do you now have into this/these event/s, now some time down the road?
The church has perpetrated this same crime on a lot of young people and none of it is my fault. I don't think I can be blamed for my apostacy. I do blame my father for not obtaining professional, NON-CHURCH RELATED counseling for me. Like a few other duties I feel he shirked as a parent (like getting braces on my teeth), I had to obtain counseling as an adult, on my own, to be better able to cope with the emotional fallout from being abused. I could still probably use a little "refresher" counseling, but am at a loss to find a good one in my area.

How do they relate to the nigglers already experienced in stage 2?
Well, one was 1) There's only one true church. This only relates marginally, in my humble opinion. If you believe this, then the actions taken by my bishopric should not be questioned and I should still be beating myself up for allowing myself to become damaged goods. How sick is that?

What age were you at the time?
15

Did you find other members could offer you anything meaningful to help you cope with your distress/dilema
"dilemma" and no. Other members in this case would be my peer group, at the time teenaged virgin girls. Those girls had absolutely zero understanding of what I was going through. It was not just a loss of faith in my religion, but in authority figures and parents whose manifest was supposed to be to protect me. I did a lot of growing up, very fast, back then and turned out to be light years away from my peer group, mentally and emotionally. They just had no idea and I'm not aware of anyone else in my youth group being abused around the same time. If it did happen, it would have been nice if someone had put us in a room together. That would have probably been very cathartic and helpful.

[elder_nomo]

What kind of destabilizing events did you experience?
in the mission field.....
1. each pair of missionaries was instructed to pray for guidance and the spirit would reveal to us a number of young fathers we felt we could/would baptize during the upcoming year. since we were entitled to that personal revelation only for our own team, the number was kept secret from other teams and sent to the mission home. at a mission conference, the total number for all teams was announced. i have no real statistics, but that total number must have been something like quintuple the number of baptisms performed in any previous year [counting all baptisms, not just our new "target demographic"]. whatever the actual statistic, the number was outrageously high for our mission. but since we had all prayed and felt "right" about our individual numbers, the total had to be correct. and the mission prez said the total was correct and would be achieved if we were obedient enough and dedicated enough.
shortly after, a few stories circulated about mishies who were "on fire" and how the floodgates were about to open. but as the year progressed, it became obvious that we were not going to make that number. we were not even going to come close.

2. another new program was introduced - "tracting by the spirit". the idea was that we mishies were wasting a lot of time knocking on the doors of people who would not listen. instead of consulting a map, we should pray for inspiration on where to go. the spirit would lead us to those who were "ready" to hear the gospel. well, we prayed and listened to the spirit. but the percentage of doors slammed in our faces (probably somwhere around 99%) did not change.

in both of these cases, there were explanations and excuses and reasons given. but together they caused me to question what it was i was feeling. i thought it was the spirit that gave us our baptism number. i thought it was the spirit guiding our tracting. the same spirit that had told me the church was true in the first place. if i couldn't rely on that feeling..... well, i didn't want to think about it. but could not stop thinking about it. and here we have constant fluctuation between stage 3 and stage 4.


What insights do you now have into this/these event/s, now some time down the road?
i am astounded that i didn't question the spirit / testimony / burning-bosom feeling prior to that time.
early on, i had been promised that i would get this "feeling." when it came as promised, i was completely taken with it. i [I]did feel it! so it was true! somehow it did not occur to me to question what the feeling was or where it came from.

How do they relate to the nigglers already experienced in stage 2?
the nigglers were still playing a minor role at this stage.

What age were you at the time?
20, 21

Did you find other members could offer you anything meaningful to help you cope with your distress/dilemma?
no way. i would not have discussed with other mishies, even if i could. they were just boys like me and i knew it. they would give me the same pat answers i already had.
could not discuss in letters to my TBM friends at home - they would not understand.
could not discuss with the mission prez. he was too distant, and besides, it would have been totally humiliating. he would know that i was not obedient enough, not dedicated enough. and what if he sent me home?

[helemon]

What kind of destabilizing events did you experience?
None really unless you count going to grad school which forced me to begin thinking critically about things I read which then transferred over to how I read the scriptures and mormon teachings.

What insights do you now have into this/these event/s, now some time down the road?
None.

How do they relate to the nigglers already experienced in stage 2?
Just further confirmed them.

What age were you at the time?
25
Did you find other members could offer you anything meaningful to help you cope with your distress/dilema
No.

[gracie]

What kind of destabilizing events did you experience?

Well, being molested by the bishop, (my dad's best friend and our neighbor) as a teenager was pretty destabilizing, but instead of causing me to question the church, I became seriously depressed.

The next major destabilizing event was becoming depressed at age 37 shortly after being called to be in the YW pres. I began to have panic attacks in the morning before church, and once had to run into the bathroom with dry heaves because of a horrifying, visceral reaction to the YW's lesson being taught.

I knew god did not require me to endure to the end in a situation that required my being medicated!!!!

What insights do you now have into this/these event/s, now some time down the road?

I know now that at age 37 I was emotionally ready to deal with the episodes that happened as a teenager, and my body was sending a blatant message that I need to deal with it NOW!

How do they relate to the nigglers already experienced in stage 2?

I could have trusted my instincts all along. The nigglers were my inner wisdom preparing me for growth that would come when I was ready for it and would listen!

What age were you at the time?
37

Did you find other members could offer you anything meaningful to help you cope with your distress/dilema

I did tell the bishop at that time that I needed to be released from YW's and why and what I was experiencing. He was very shocked, but supportive and kind. He has been very helpful, but only to a certain extent. Of course, he has no experience or training in dealing with victims of sexual abuse, and seemed stunned that something like what happened to me actually does happen!

My husband is extremely supportive, while still a TBM.

No one else has any idea of what I have really been through, nor a concept of how to respond to my situation. I do not expect that from my friends. My experiences with the church and "gods priesthood holders" are generally pretty far removed from their own.

The internet is a great resource and I have gotten the most validation through my cyberfriends!

[Born Free]

<snip>

I became seriously depressed.

<snip>

The next major destabilizing event was becoming depressed at age 37 shortly after being called to be in the YW pres. I began to have panic attacks in the morning before church, and once had to run into the bathroom with dry heaves because of a horrifying, visceral reaction to the YW's lesson being taught.

<snip>


Gracie,

I am interested in the lesson content that finally triggered that powerful reaction. Do you mind if I ask what it was?

Daryl

[free thinker]

What kind of destabilizing events did you experience?

I moved to a new city 100 miles away from where I was active and held positions in the church. This move was not a negative event. I had been wanting to move here for years.



What insights do you now have into this/these event/s, now some time down the road?

I am very grateful I made this move. It gave me the freedom to get away from the watchful eye of people who would have made my life miserable if I did not come to church. Here noone really knew me.


How do they relate to the nigglers already experienced in stage 2?

I had experienced many nigglers over the years. I just put them into my niggler pocket and kept moving. Now I had the time and freedom to open the pocket and take a closer look.


What age were you at the time?

45

Did you find other members could offer you anything meaningful to help you cope with your distress/dilema


Never bothered to ask. I knew what would happen, and I didin't feel like dealing with it.

Free Thinker

[peter_mary]

I had experienced many nigglers over the years. I just put them into my niggler pocket and kept moving.

Free Thinker

Dude! You have a "niggle pocket?" That is so cool! I MUST have one...or a niggle wallet, maybe. I'm thinking we could market niggle wallets or purses with the "WTF" logo embroidered on the face...how cool would THAT be?

:D

Peter_Mary

[gracie]

Gracie,

I am interested in the lesson content that finally triggered that powerful reaction. Do you mind if I ask what it was?

Daryl


I can't really remember that exact time. (maybe I'd rather not?) Other comments that upset me to the point of leaving the room were references to priesthood holders, specifically telling YW that if they have a "problem" they need to go to the bishop, who loves them.

Also, that we are so blessed to have the priesthood in our lives to bless us. (As if women cannot be blessed without a man as medium).

Everything in YW's eventually gets back to the idea that women need priesthood holders for virtually everything and that they can always be trusted to act in our best interest, just as god would.

[lunaverse]

What kind of destabilizing events did you experience?

My discomfirming event was reading and thinking about higher intelligences (AI, augmented human intelligence) and The Technological Singularity proposed by futurists like Vernor Vinge. I started reading on these, and maybe a week later (two at the most) it hit me that all conclusions I had drawn about the nature of man-made Higher Intelligences would also apply to God. This connection was a shocking blow. I'd say that took no more than 1 week to process. So perhaps a total of 3 weeks max. There was nothing to doubt any longer for me. No distractions required.

A lot of other things were also going on in my life about the same 6-month period that destablized reality for me a bit. I had started reading a book called The Illuminatus Trilogy, which disillusioned me about political polarity and The Way Things Were. I watched an Anime called Lain which is a mind trip in and of itself.

Internet chat rooms, talking with geeks, debating with people who actually knew the rules of logic was a real challenge, and changed the way my thought processes worked. They demanded sources for my "facts", and taught me to use the Internet to research everything. They called me on my logical fallacies, which caused me to learn what those were. They also exposed me to the Singularity theory of human-created intelligence, see above.

I'd already decided to drink alcohol when ever it helped my social problems. I participated in polical rallies (it was election year 2000). I was rapidly converting from Republican to Libertarian. All in all, a lot of influences were forcing me to ask a lot of questions I'd never considered previously.

After The Epiphany (as I call it) it took about 3 months before I crossed the line, fully separating myself from the Church permanately when I had extra-martial sex with a boyfriend. That phase, I call the Chrysalis.

What insights do you now have into this/these event/s, now some time down the road?

It's very weird to have the world crash down like that. Disconcerting.

I didn't have anything against the Church at first -- I saw it as just another religion, they were all in the same boat to me. (They still are, for most practical purposes.) I didn't really bother reading much anti-Mormon literature for a couple of years, and then I only dabbled until last summer.

The 6 months following The Chrysalis were filled with dramatic Synchronicities, high improbabilites, impossible coincidences. I wish I had written them all down (and some I couldn't write, to protect the secrets of others). It was a very energetic time. Every sign pointed to "This is RIGHT."

Another thing that happened is that a huge number of my social inhibitions (debilative social anxiety) magically lifted during this time. I wasn't 100% cured (I'm still not) but there was a total difference. Somehow, and I'm not sure how, my social anxiety was tied to my belief in the Church.

How do they relate to the nigglers already experienced in stage 2?

Everything was resolved when I learned men don't have a direct communication with God.

What age were you at the time?

27.

Did you find other members could offer you anything meaningful to help you cope with your distress/dilema

No. No other members knew for a long time what was happening. I already hadn't been attending Church much, and it never came up with my family. My very close Nephew knew, but he was sewing his own wild oats at the time. He is now back to being a full TBM.

[peter_mary]

The 6 months following The Chrysalis were filled with dramatic Synchronicities, high improbabilites, impossible coincidences. I wish I had written them all down (and some I couldn't write, to protect the secrets of others). It was a very energetic time. Every sign pointed to "This is RIGHT."

This was how it was for me, too. The synchronicity of understanding was so profound, so complete, that I literally felt like I understood how the universe worked!

And when I checked my magic 8-ball, it said, "All signs point to YES." So I left!

That synchronicity was so powerful that it was palpable, and far stronger, far more persuasive than any so-called "spiritual" experience I thought I'd had in the past. In a sense, you could say I have a "testimony" of my new-found world-view by virtue of some powerful "spiritual" awakenings that resulted from the journey. Only now I perceive those experiences as brain phenomenon rather than spiritual phenomenon.