Departing Moism - Stage 5 - Active Unfiltered Research

[Born Free]

Stage 5 of the departing model is Active Unfiltered Research - involves pulling out all stops in information gathering, in contrast with the typically heavily filtered searches that may have preceded this stage. It may involve differing levels of awareness that we all have belief filters in place.

As some clarification, some have proposed that searches prior to this stage have been about maintaining comfort and security, rather than active pursuit of 'truth'. Moism would label this only seeking out 'faith promoting' stories and information. By contrast, this phase involves 'warts and all' truth - forget the milk, we're ready for meat!

DIALECTIC: We begin to give the opposition’s points of view full rights in our thinking and discard only parts of their view as evil.
The whole Draft Model thus far is at http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/...hp?t=288&page=2

Preceding threads posted are:
Stage 2 - http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/showthread.php?t=317
Stage 3 - http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/showthread.php?t=322
Stage 4 - http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/showthread.php?t=324

Ed and I are keen to see who would be interested to flesh out our (all our) understanding of the process of leaving, so propose to initiate a series of threads to elicit more information on each stage.

Ed has suggested several of the following for this stage, and I have added some:

What did you find at stage 5 that helped?

What were you prepared to do this time, that you would not attempt previously?

Please rank any books or websites in order of their impact or helpfulness to you

Was there any type of information that aroused concerns in you that it was not objective or truthful?

What was your intellectual and emotional reaction to any new information you found and how long did any strong reaction last?
We are looking to compare responses to this question to see what patterns (similarities/differences) emerge, so please cut and paste each of the questions, followed by your response/s, so that everyones responses remain in the same sequence.

Daryl

PS: Here are some other threads somewhat related to this stage:

Mountain Meadows: http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/showthread.php?t=162
Departures from MO: http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/showthread.php?t=325
Mo Lampoon: http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/showthread.php?t=318
Going too far?: http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/showthread.php?t=306

[bigeddy]

For me a kind of preliminary stage 5 was happening along with all previous stages due to the fact that I was teaching the gospel professionally and was studying it constantly. However, as I stated in my response regarding stage 3, my problems with the church were never doctrinal or even related strongly to church history. As I thought more about it I recognized that there was a definate time when my study shifted from church issues, history and doctrine, to what others, outside the church, were writing.

What did you find at stage 5 that helped?

In reading Ken Wilber, Rabbi Kushner, Sam Keen, Mathew Fox and a few others, I found that "something which is higher." I had given up reading books by any church leader. They were always the same damned book with a different title and auther. It became clear that the church books contained no futher growth and I was bumping my head on in intellectual ceiling. I was constantly frustrated at the inadequacy of "the bretheren" to answer any of the complexities and ambiguities. It was capped off when Steve Robinson (head of the Dept. of Ancient Scripture at BYU, a man whose scholarship I highly respected) asked me one day "Do you think the church has a handle on homosexuality?" When I said most definately not; he agreed completely. Then, WHY DO WE NEED THIS DAMNED PROPHET if he cannot answer any basic questions regarding the complexity of life?

THe newer things I was reading were full of answers, ways of beholding humanity that were inherantly more complete. I was finally able to move past the "ceiling" that had thoroughly bruised the top of my head.

What were you prepared to do this time, that you would not attempt previously?

Because this movement represented an entirely different kind of growth (vertical) I was prepared to chuck it all and gleefully (finally) move on.

Please rank any books or websites in order of their impact or helpfulness to you

Anything by Harold Kushner, Ken Wilber, Sam Keen, Mathew Fox, (now that I have found him) Bishop Spong.


Was there any type of information that aroused concerns in you that it was not objective or truthful?

I am supposing that by "it" you mean the newer stuff I was reading; the answer is no. I had already figured that when church leaders didn't want me to read that stuff it was entirely because of their fear.

What was your intellectual and emotional reaction to any new information you found and how long did any strong reaction last?

Huge, vast, grateful relief!! Finally, someone who could lead upward and beyond. It has lasted to this day.

Ed. (now, I'm late for work again)

[peter_mary]

This is actually interesting for me, because I had been reading and thinking and building a new paradigm for a couple of years, but there was a distinct lack of any research into specifically Mormon topics. Subsequently, when I was ready, there was a CLEAR leap into Stage 5, and I was ravenous for information! Whereas some of Stages 2, 3 and 4 were kind of a jumble for me, Stage 5 was NOT!

What did you find at stage 5 that helped?

Curiously, I had already prepared myself for Stage 5 by building a paradigm of the universe that did not "require" a God, a Savior, a Prophet, or a restored gospel. Still, the idea that those these are not "required" does not yet mean that they aren't still there. But having already built an alternate world-view/spiritual-view, I was prepared to deconstruct Mormonism when I began that course of study.

Two things were critical to my success in moving through Stage 5. First was the incredible amount of historical and biographical information that was available from Mormon scholars (and former Mormon scholars) who were willing to ask hard questions concerning their own faith, and who were not bending to the edicts of Salt Lake that continued to threaten them with the notion that "not all things that are true are useful." I couldn't believe that there were so many truly intelligent books that talked about the foibles and fallacies of the early Church and the personalities who built it, by people who cared about those things, rather than who just wanted to point fingers at them.

The second thing was that I had a small support system with whom I could work through all my thinking, my discovery, my fears, my pain, and with whom I could share my joys. For a time, that system included only my wife and one other couple in our Ward who were on this journey with us. In a short period of time, that system grew to include other couples in our Ward, colleagues, friends from other Wards, and my Brother-in-law.

The one-two punch of information and support moved me along through Stage 5 like a freight train.

What were you prepared to do this time, that you would not attempt previously?

This time, knowing I had the support of my wife, my children, and a few close friends, I was able to confront the questions that had I not been willing to face previously. It was hard to admit that I had been so blinded by the culture. It was hard to calculate the tithing I had given to this gigantic corporation. It was hard to recall the things I had taught and modeled for my children (who simply LOVE to remind me of those things NOW :o ). It was hard to recall the things I had said when I stood and bore testimony that "I KNOW this Church is true," when I now could see that I KNEW nothing, but was following the course laid out for me in the manner that sheep do. Layer after layer of all the fear, all the anxiety, all the repressed feelings, all the guilt, all the head-games, all of that had to come falling off, and my wife and friends were there to facilitate that process, as I was there to facilitate theirs.

Please rank any books or websites in order of their impact or helpfulness to you.

(These are not in order, because I don't know how to really rank them. They are not even necessarily the best books that have shaped my thinking, but because of when I read them and what impact they had on my life, they were incredibly important.)

"A History of God" by Karen Armstrong

"Quantum Self" by Danah Zohar

"The Tao Te Ching" by Lao Tzu, translation by Red Pine

"Mormon America" by Richard and Joan Ostling

"Early Mormonism and the Magic World View" by D. Michael Quinn

"No Man Knows My History" by Fawn Brodie

"Mormons and the Bible" by Philip Barlow

"Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith" by Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippets Avery

"Cults in our Midst" by Margaret Thaler Singer

"Complexity: The Emerging Science at the Edge of Order and Chaos" by Mitchell Waldrop

"Chaos: Making a New Science" by James Gleick

"Liberating the Gospels" by John Shelby Spong

"Quest for the Golden Plates" by Stan Larsen

"The Miracles of Mindfulness" by Thich Nhat Hahn

Each of these were either read during Stage 5, or their meaning became profound during Stage 5. Please recognize that this is by no means an exhaustive list, nor necessarily the best books on all these topics, but I have tried to capture the MOST important books that represented the nugget of exploration, paradigm decontruction, and paradigm building in this Stage.

Was there any type of information that aroused concerns in you that it was not objective or truthful?

I really did try to steer clear of information that I perceived as "agenda-driven." I didn't want to read stuff written by Christians who were "ministering" to the lost Mormons. I didn't want to read stuff by people who left the Church and were trying to coax others out, too. And I didn't want to read stuff from FARMS or Nibley other apologists who were equally agenda driven to keep me IN. For some reason, right or wrong, I felt safe reading stuff from Mormons who were trying to have an honest dialogue about the strengths and weaknesses of their own, current belief system, or non-Mormons who were talking about something else entirely other than Mormonism. Those were the kinds of materials I was drawn to.

What was your intellectual and emotional reaction to any new information you found and how long did any strong reaction last?

I was incredibly intellectually stimulated, as would anyone be who committed themselves to years and years of intense reading, study and conversation about what they were reading. It was extremely rewarding in that regard.

Emotionally, it was the most profound liberating experience of my entire life. Nothing I had ever read or discussed in the context of Church could even begin to compare to the power and strength of my new "understanding" of myself, my species, and the universe in which I live. (Sorry folks, but that most definately includes the Book of Mormon and the Bible.) Nothing in the Church or in religion in general could ever compare to the personal power I felt when I accepted full and complete responsibility for my own thinking, my own choices, my own decisions, my own reaction to external events and my own life. Nothing could compare to the relief I felt when I realized I could shed the enormous burden of guilt and fear. When that boulder came crashing off my shoulders, I was for the first time in my life a liberated and free man, and the emotional response was one of incredible peace, happiness and compassion. It persists to this day, and I would guess it has been roughly 6 or 7 years since I truly entered Stage 5.

I wish I could bottle that feeling and sell it on e-bay... ;)

Peter_Mary

[dogzilla]

What did you find at stage 5 that helped?
Time and distance. I needed to grow up and live life for a while -- and heal from the emotional insults and abuse I'd been put through, as well as heal mentally and physically. Once I had some time and distance away from the major destabilizing event, I was better able to open my mind to study.

What were you prepared to do this time, that you would not attempt previously?
Actually consider religion at all. Or any form of spirituality in general. I was so angry at the church, at God, at organized religion, at men and at authority figures, that I refused to have anything to do with anything remotely religious.

Please rank any books or websites in order of their impact or helpfulness to you
Probably one of the first things I read that helped me get back on a spiritual path was, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance." (Robert Pirsig, I think) Shortly after that, I read "The Tao of Pooh" followed by "The Te of Piglet." I approached the search for truth in terms of philosophy since I couldn't stomach religion for about 10 years.

I continued on the Buddhist path for a while and then I met a Wiccan woman and we talked a lot. I googled "wicca" and "pagan beliefs" and found a lot of interesting information that squared up more with what I believe in my heart. Now I plan to do some reading on Native American beliefs, since my interest in herbalism will fall in line with that.

Was there any type of information that aroused concerns in you that it was not objective or truthful?
Only that Wiccans are Satan worshippers. (At first, I typed, "Stan Worshippers." Please note that Wiccans do not worship guys named Stan either!) Then I came to the realization that Satan is a Christian concept and is incorrectly applied to pagan and other non-Christian religions.

[elder_nomo]

going chronologically, i sort of skipped over a "real" stage 5 - i didn't really get to "active unfiltered research" until way after stage 7. but for what it's worth.......

What did you find at stage 5 that helped?
during my doubting missionary days, i had no access to outside information but i wasn't really looking for it. the "debate" for me was pretty much internal. even after i came home from the mission field, i did not seek out "evidence" about the church or look for opposing points of view.
the decision to join the church had really been based on emotion, and that was what was at the heart of my doubts - it wasn't facts or proofs.
oddly enough, the one thing that was helpful was the church's own "all or nothing" premise. i had to accept it all, or i could not accept any of it.

What were you prepared to do this time, that you would not attempt previously?
i was willing to open my mind to those niggling stage 2 doubts. i was willing to add more to that list. i was beginning to think independently. and i was prepared to be disobedient.

Please rank any books or websites in order of their impact or helpfulness to you
none

Was there any type of information that aroused concerns in you that it was not objective or truthful?
no

What was your intellectual and emotional reaction to any new information you found and how long did any strong reaction last?
not applicable

[helemon]

What did you find at stage 5 that helped?
Infobases, NMKMH, Gospel link to some extent, the Internet. These things allowed me to access a huge number of books and writings that would have been impossible for me to consult had I been forced to purchase these books seperately or check them out and read them seperately. The ability to search all of them on particular topics and then compare teachings across time and from different people was very valuable.

What were you prepared to do this time, that you would not attempt previously?
Not sure. I don't think it had anything to do with me being prepared to do it. It was the fact that I had access to it.

Please rank any books or websites in order of their impact or helpfulness to you
Infobases
NMKMH
alt.religion.mormon

Was there any type of information that aroused concerns in you that it was not objective or truthful?

What? That what I was reading was not objective or truthful or that the church was not objective or truthful?
I recognized that what the church presented was not an accurate representation of all perspectives on the matter and heavily filtered other points of view and documents that did not support their agenda.

What was your intellectual and emotional reaction to any new information you found and how long did any strong reaction last?
Betrayal of trust. Like finding out your spouse was having an affair. It was a fairly strong feeling for about 3-4 yrs.

[gracie]

What did you find at stage 5 that helped?

I researched on the internet hours a day for a period of a few weeks. I googled anything that I had ever had a question about. I also visited the public library regularily and read anything I could find for, by, or about mormons. I asked myself questions, and took notes about what I found.

What were you prepared to do this time, that you would not attempt previously?

I wanted the TRUTH! Whatever it was, where ever it could be found. I read anything at first, whether someone had an agenda or not, and gradually was able to sift through the mountains in info to zero in on specific concerns. (Ie, women and the church, polygamy, cover up of abuse within the church, etc.) I compared info from many different sources, and looked up references, etc.

Please rank any books or websites in order of their impact or helpfulness to you

I think the first book I read was Mormon America, by the Ostlings. It was the first perspective I had ever seen of mormons from outside the church. I also was fascinated by accounts I found on the net by other women who had bee victims of abuse within the church. I read anything by Maxine Hanks and Lavina Fielding Anderson. I searched newpaper articles for any info on court cases the church was dealing with, or charges against church members. I was thrilled that I was not alone!!!!

Was there any type of information that aroused concerns in you that it was not objective or truthful?

there was. I just found took in as much info as I could from as many sources as seemed credible and compared it with my own experience. I no longer care if something is "true" or not, just whether it fits with my own experiences and seems sensible and makes me happier in some way. I am trying to figure out what actually "works" rather than what is "true" (whatever that means.)

What was your intellectual and emotional reaction to any new information you found and how long did any strong reaction last?

At first I felt angry and hurt that I had been duped to such an extent. Ultimately, I feel thrilled that I have courage to find my own answers, rather than search for and try to live someone else's answers.

[free thinker]

What did you find at stage 5 that helped?

I am still in stage five. This forum helps a lot. I dont have much other support. I am going to seek some though. I think we all need someone to talk to about the trials of depsrting mormonism

What were you prepared to do this time, that you would not attempt previously?

Leave the church. I just didn't see any reason to stay.


Please rank any books or websites in order of their impact or helpfulness to you

An Insiders View of Mormon Origins Grant Palmer

In Sacred Loneliness Todd Compton

Keystone of Mormonism Arza Evans

Leaving the Saints Martha Beck

Losing a Lost Tribe Simon Southernton

Under the Banner of Heaven John Krakauer

Free Thinkers Susan Jacoby

No Man Knows My History Fawn Brodie

This web site, and Recovery from Mormonism web site.



Was there any type of information that aroused concerns in you that it was not objective or truthful?

I dont care for the evengelical christian works. I was not interested in their point of view, because I knew they had an agenda. This is why I liked Comton's and Palmer's books. They had remained in the church, and therefore I felt they had the most to lose by exposing the hidden historical items.



What was your intellectual and emotional reaction to any new information you found and how long did any strong reaction last?

Very Visceral. I was angry and felt decieved. Still am in some ways.

[lunaverse]

What did you find at stage 5 that helped?

I honestly didn't reach this stage (in the way it is described, of researching the Church) until last summer (5 years after leaving the Church).

Actually, after leaving, I spent a lot of time researching philosophy, other religions, politics. I was free now to fully explore everything, so that's what I did in this phase. I didn't explore the deceptions of Mormonism, I explored the World, looking for Truth, replacements for what I'd lost. So perhaps this stage needs to be modified, broardened a bit? :)

What were you prepared to do this time, that you would not attempt previously?

I wasn't "Wasting" my time by learning about other belief systems, so I did. I wasn't looking for answers, as much as I was looking for understanding. Since I had a clean slate (political and religious), I was questioning EVERYTHING. I suffered an identity crisis, because we "are" a party member, we "are" a church member. By then, I "wasn't" any label except myself. I had to learn to be comfortable with that.

Please rank any books or websites in order of their impact or helpfulness to you

The order is only mostly important. :) I've probably forgotten some.

1. The Age of Reason, Thomas Paine
2. Ain't Nobody's Busines If You Do, Peter McWilliams
3. Ayn Rand (Philosophy, Who Needs It?, Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead)
4. Various websites on Logical Fallacies
5. religoustolerance.org
6. The Illuminatus Trilogy, Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea
7. People of the Lie, M. Scott Peck
8. The Reasonable Woman, Wendy McElroy
9. How the Irish Saved Civilization and The Gift of the Jews by Thomas Cahill
10. Tao Te Ching, Lao Tzu
11. Screw the Roses, Send Me the Thorns, Philip Miller, Molly Devon
12. Time Enough for Love, Robert A. Heinlein

Was there any type of information that aroused concerns in you that it was not objective or truthful?

N/A

What was your intellectual and emotional reaction to any new information you found and how long did any strong reaction last?

Amazement. Excitement. Profound sources were all around me. I devoured them with excitement. I still do. :) Milk and honey might be sweet, but it's a limited diet, and now I can read anything without guilt that I'm wasting my time. Yay!

[Born Free]

What did you find at stage 5 that helped?

I honestly didn't reach this stage (in the way it is described, of researching the Church) until last summer (5 years after leaving the Church).

Actually, after leaving, I spent a lot of time researching philosophy, other religions, politics. I was free now to fully explore everything, so that's what I did in this phase. I didn't explore the deceptions of Mormonism, I explored the World, looking for Truth, replacements for what I'd lost. So perhaps this stage needs to be modified, broardened a bit? :)

What were you prepared to do this time, that you would not attempt previously?

I wasn't "Wasting" my time by learning about other belief systems, so I did. I wasn't looking for answers, as much as I was looking for understanding. Since I had a clean slate (political and religious), I was questioning EVERYTHING. I suffered an identity crisis, because we "are" a party member, we "are" a church member. By then, I "wasn't" any label except myself. I had to learn to be comfortable with that.

Please rank any books or websites in order of their impact or helpfulness to you

The order is only mostly important. :) I've probably forgotten some.

1. The Age of Reason, Thomas Paine
2. Ain't Nobody's Busines If You Do, Peter McWilliams
3. Ayn Rand (Philosophy, Who Needs It?, Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead)
4. Various websites on Logical Fallacies
5. religoustolerance.org
6. The Illuminatus Trilogy, Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea
7. People of the Lie, M. Scott Peck
8. The Reasonable Woman, Wendy McElroy
9. How the Irish Saved Civilization and The Gift of the Jews by Thomas Cahill
10. Tao Te Ching, Lao Tzu
11. Screw the Roses, Send Me the Thorns, Philip Miller, Molly Devon
12. Time Enough for Love, Robert A. Heinlein

Was there any type of information that aroused concerns in you that it was not objective or truthful?

N/A

What was your intellectual and emotional reaction to any new information you found and how long did any strong reaction last?

Amazement. Excitement. Profound sources were all around me. I devoured them with excitement. I still do. :) Milk and honey might be sweet, but it's a limited diet, and now I can read anything without guilt that I'm wasting my time. Yay!
Luna,

I can feel the excitement radiating off your writing, even all this time after this stage.

I am enjoying reading your 'Stages' and fell I am getting to know you better through it. Thanks for sharing.

Keep in mind that whilst the original Stages sequence had Belief System implosion and Reinvention at a later stage, I came to see that that was ongoing, even right back before joining the Church, so the Map was modified to have those 2 elements continue right through the entire process. That is a process we keep doing (ideally) all our life (even though MoInc tries to arrest our development and restrict us to horizontal growth at one stage)

Is that closer to what you feel you experienced?

Daryl

[lunaverse]

Is that closer to what you feel you experienced?



Kind of... only, during that specific time, it was far more energetic and focused and accelerated. That's why (one reason) I call that phase, The Chrysalis.

Luna

[Born Free]

Kind of... only, during that specific time, it was far more energetic and focused and accelerated. That's why (one reason) I call that phase, The Chrysalis.

Luna
Luna,

If I understood you, that is also a period where to old paradigm was falling away, just as rapidly.

One of the things that interests me is what happens to people who have all the falling apart process, but do not find the more than offsetting Ah-ha experience, such as you describe.

Theoretically that could be very, very distressing, probably something like Bob McCue describes in the phase where he burst out into full-blown profanities, after he came to see how he had been deceived, and the resultant upset that was so extreme as to severly upset his digestive tract.

I wonder whether when some people just 'dribble' away, whether that is to consciously or unconsciously avoid that high-distress phase.

BTW, congratulations on getting through all that so young (pre-35). How I wish I had made that break so much earlier.

Daryl