Post Mo Christianity And Your Children

[silverfox]

I grew up in a Baptist background. Although my parents were not active in a church or what I would call religious they were God fearing folk. They were raised in the hills of Kentucky so being God fearing was natural, I suppose, to them.

My grandfather whom I was very close to was a well respected Baptist deacon in his day. And he exposed us to Bible teachings, scriptures, etc. So I was always very comfortable in my beliefs in Christ/God, etc.

I joined the LDS church at 18 after leaving home at 16.
After being a member for nearly 30 years (yeah, do the math I am OLD, deal with it) I am now no longer a member. And with my exodus from the church, my beliefs in a God/Christ have gone with it.

However, I do cherish my one time beliefs in God/Christ ESPECIALLY as a young child. I grew up in a very dysfunctional environment and my beliefs helped me cope.

I have a teen daughter and a 10 yo daughter still at home. I have mixed feelings regarding raising them in a Christian home. We don't attend any church, don't really have a desire to. If I ever decided to attend a church it would probably be for social reasons. But at this time, there is no interest.

However, I feel strongly that one's belief in God/Christ should be and is very personal. I want my kids to have the option to form their own beliefs. However, I have struggled with teaching them because of my own "non beliefs".

To assist I ordered a DVD called "Jesus, The Whole Story". Some of you may have watched this on the Discovery Channel. It is a scientific and historical approach to the story of Jesus. What his intentions may have been, etc. I saw it last year and decided to buy it this year. I want to be able to provide sound information to my kids and let them determine for themselves exactly what they want to believe. Even if it differs from my own beliefs.

There is also a documentary that the Discovery Channel presented regarding Mary Magdalene. I want to order that one, too.

I will watch them with my family. Take note of their questions, comments and take it from there.

My question is - for you Post Mo parents how have you handled Christianity and your children?

Some Post Mos continue to believe in God/Christ but I find it interesting how many of us lose those beliefs as well during our exit. I believe because we start researching more closely what we took for granted for so long.

[dogzilla]

I don't have children, but I know people who do... (my parents! d-oh!)

I have a suggestion, based on my observations of another family whose parents are not religious at all. They take their kids everywhere and have exposed them to all religions. They've gone to the Korean Baptist church. They've gone to the Jewish temple, they've gone to Catholic services, AME services. They teach the kids about Buddha, Islam, and Hinduism. They even go to all sorts of cultural events, like the Rattlesnake Roundup! :eek: (It's a Southern thang.)

Point being: that's great if you want to expose your kids to a spiritual life. You might consider just exposing them to everything, answering their questions best you can and researching together those you can't answer... and let them make their own decisions whenever, and if, they are good and ready. You'll probably learn a lot on your own in the process.

[silverfox]

I don't have children, but I know people who do... (my parents! d-oh!)

I have a suggestion, based on my observations of another family whose parents are not religious at all. They take their kids everywhere and have exposed them to all religions. They've gone to the Korean Baptist church. They've gone to the Jewish temple, they've gone to Catholic services, AME services. They teach the kids about Buddha, Islam, and Hinduism. They even go to all sorts of cultural events, like the Rattlesnake Roundup! :eek: (It's a Southern thang.)

Point being: that's great if you want to expose your kids to a spiritual life. You might consider just exposing them to everything, answering their questions best you can and researching together those you can't answer... and let them make their own decisions whenever, and if, they are good and ready. You'll probably learn a lot on your own in the process.

Thanks, that's a great suggestion. It would be good for them to see the differences. I want to tread carefully as I don't want to present the message that you HAVE to believe in something or belong somewhere. And I also want to be careful about them making decisions based on emotion (feel goods) rather than sound information. (like I can control that, but, hey, I'm a mom, and I like to dream heh heh)

However, I do want them to be aware of their choices although they seem very content with our lives the way they are.

[peter_mary]

Man, all we had to do was give our kids permision, and they were GONE. Our youngest is still too young to form a philosophical foundation, and she also heartily believes in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy at age 10, so we tread lightly with her. But all of our older children have firmly established non-theistic philosophical world-views, even though they were raised Mormons long enough for the first two to spend a couple of years in Seminary. We have always just talked openly about these things, and our kids landed easily into a similar space with regard to a belief system. Not really sure how that happened...it was never our intent to remove their beliefs (as evidenced by the strong belief in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the TF... :rolleyes: ) And I don't think they "followed" us out, either. I believe they all thought their ways out, and frankly, that's part of what makes me proud to be their dad.

Peter_Mary

[Jeff_Ricks]

Man, all we had to do was give our kids permision, and they were GONE. Our youngest is still too young to form a philosophical foundation, and she also heartily believes in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy at age 10, so we tread lightly with her. But all of our older children have firmly established non-theistic philosophical world-views, even though they were raised Mormons long enough for the first two to spend a couple of years in Seminary. We have always just talked openly about these things, and our kids landed easily into a similar space with regard to a belief system. Not really sure how that happened...it was never our intent to remove their beliefs (as evidenced by the strong belief in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the TF... :rolleyes: ) And I don't think they "followed" us out, either. I believe they all thought their ways out, and frankly, that's part of what makes me proud to be their dad.

Peter_Mary

Boy I can relate to all of that! Except my youngest is 17 -- no more Santa, etc. They all adopted a non-theistic belief system too. I didn't have to teach them anything about belief systems. In fact I find them teaching me almost every day. This morning when my daughter and I were in the car something she heard on the radio prompted her to say something like, "You know there's really not much difference between how this country treated blacks years ago and how it treats homosexuals today. History repeats itself and people are too stupid to realize it."

That was an interesting preface to when I was in our break room at work heating up my lunch in the microwave and talking with some others about he pros and cons of K-Mart and Wal-Mart (we don't get out much). One guy piped up, "I'll never shop at a Target! They support gay and lesbian causes. Nope, I'll never shop there!" Surrounded by Mormons I debated whether I should tell him what my 17 year old daughter observed just a few hours earlier. I looked around the room and this time chickened out.

Jeff

[dogzilla]

That was an interesting preface to when I was in our break room at work heating up my lunch in the microwave and talking with some others about he pros and cons of K-Mart and Wal-Mart (we don't get out much). One guy piped up, "I'll never shop at a Target! They support gay and lesbian causes. Nope, I'll never shop there!" Surrounded by Mormons I debated whether I should tell him what my 17 year old daughter observed just a few hours earlier. I looked around the room and this time chickened out.

Jeff

Well, let me know if you'd like to borrow my Wal-Mart rant. It applies to Starbucks, worst coffee on the planet, as well.

Your daughter sounds really, really smart. I'm proud, and I don't even know her!

[Born Free]

Thanks, that's a great suggestion. It would be good for them to see the differences. I want to tread carefully as I don't want to present the message that you HAVE to believe in something or belong somewhere. And I also want to be careful about them making decisions based on emotion (feel goods) rather than sound information. (like I can control that, but, hey, I'm a mom, and I like to dream heh heh)

However, I do want them to be aware of their choices although they seem very content with our lives the way they are.

Silverfox,

(Daryl walks out on limb again and balances tenuously!!!!!)

Does your question/dilema have embedded within it the assumption that parents should have some firm 'answer' to such questions, which was how Christianity, Moism and even parts of Western culture shaped us?

That is a cultural fantasy I constantly have to remind myself I can release.

As we (wife and I) moved towards the exit door for Mosim, and more since, I see areas of our life where we have given up on the idea that we have to have 'answers'. I have found that means we can be more honest with our kids, about where we are at, and that like them, we are on a never ending journey of finding/creating meaning. For me that means that the answer I found last week is highly unlikely to be satisfying next week.

So I figure if I model endless curiosity, backed by the skills to research and analyse, and do my best to infuse my children with those qualities, by manifesting my love and passion for that, then I give them the greatest gift I can. This is a reverence for and embracing of the Mystery of Life.

As I see it we have no guaranteed answers to the biggest questions of life, so pretending I or someone else has the meaning of life in a blue box with a ribbon around it, does not serve them well.

That approach equips them to serve a "god' that is greater than my 'god' and thereby play a role in progressing human consciousness.

Like you, I found the traditional Chirst and God package quite inadequate after deconstructing Mosim, so I still work on how to relate to that. Spong has opened up other possibilities in how I relate to the historical Christ.

I continue to believe that part of the challenge for our generation is to create a moral and ethical world that is built upon something more substantial that what I see as a Judeo/Christian Divine Santa Clause. Whilst that is one hell of a challenge, I hold to the faith that that will mark a giant leap for mankind.

Daryl

[silverfox]

Silverfox,

(Daryl walks out on limb again and balances tenuously!!!!!)

Does your question/dilema have embedded within it the assumption that parents should have some firm 'answer' to such questions, which was how Christianity, Moism and even parts of Western culture shaped us?

Daryl

The answer to this.....no, not at all. In fact I need them to realize that with something like Christianity NO ONE has the answers which is why I feel it is a very personal choice.

My girls are content. They never liked the Mormon church anyway. So it was no big loss to them. My intent is to provide information. So much about Christianity appears to be assumed by so easily. I want them to have facts and information. Do I want them to be Christians? No but I want it to be their choice.

I hope that by informing them it may allow future decisions re:religion to be made based on knowledge, information rather than emotion.

I remember well how easily it was to join the LDS church. It was such an emotional decision for me. I was not informed. The fear of a God had already been instilled on me but I had no knowledge, only ideas that had been created out of emotion by family, etc.

If my girls find themselves in the same situation with any religion I would like them to be able to analyze the situation more logically than I was capable of regardless of emotion.

Had I had the information I do now regarding Christianity and how it began, etc, I believe I would have made very different decisions.

[Jeff_Ricks]

Well, let me know if you'd like to borrow my Wal-Mart rant. It applies to Starbucks, worst coffee on the planet, as well.

Your daughter sounds really, really smart. I'm proud, and I don't even know her!

Thanks. I'm proud of her too!

Jeff

[flotsam]

This is a question that is frequently on my mind as well, having two boys and a baby on the way.

My boys are very different. The oldest has a huge brain and an endearing stubborn streak. About a year ago, right during the sacrament, he got this look in his eye and said "I don't believe to God." I think he was trying to freak us out. It didn't really work though. We kept asking him why until he got sick of the subject. Too bad, I really wanted to know. He also doesn't like church all that much. He's a good kid and his teachers always like him. He also gives very good talks in primary. But I wonder what he really thinks.

My youngest, on the other hand, is a big old Jesus freak. My wife gave him a New Testemant Reader for Easter and he is constantly asking us to read his "My book about Jesus Christ." That's what he calls him, "Jesus Christ." All the time. You ever seen Frailty? That movie about the guy who feels called by God to kill demons? The younger brother in that always says he can see what his dad sees, and the whole time you're saying, yeah, you're just saying that to get dad's approval. But in the end, you find out different. That's what my youngest reminds me of. A little creepy. But he's still quite lovable. The only other thing he worships is Pokemon. What was that about not being able to serve two masters?

Right now I'm just trying to validate them as individuals, and trying to make the scriptures seem like interesting stories with multiple interpretations rather than untouchable divinity. But my youngest was not impressed with the way I turned the crazy guy Jesus casts the legion of devils out of into the Tazmanian Devil. Why do my kids not think I'm funny?

I am so funny.

I'm also trying to figure out who my kids are. I get sick in church when people say, the best gift you can give your parents is to stay true to the church they love. Bull poopy. The best gift you can give to your parents is to always be honest with them and expect honesty from them.

This question is getting more pertinent these days because my oldest is almost eight. I can't tell if he wants to be baptised or not. He keeps bringing up misgivings about it. The latest one is that he's afraid of getting water on his face, which is silly because we go swimming three times a week. We considered letting him wear his snorkel mask to the font. What do you think, would the bishop have a heart attack? :D

Because, you know there's something to be said for milestones. For rituals that make you feel part of a community. I want to give my boys the good the world has to offer while keeping them as free from idealogical bonds as possible (though I get the feeling that my youngest likes them). I still don't know what to do about the whole baptism thing.

Man, being the grownup is a pain.

[miss taken]

This is a question that is frequently on my mind as well, having two boys and a baby on the way.

My boys are very different. The oldest has a huge brain and an endearing stubborn streak. About a year ago, right during the sacrament, he got this look in his eye and said "I don't believe to God." I think he was trying to freak us out. It didn't really work though. We kept asking him why until he got sick of the subject. Too bad, I really wanted to know. He also doesn't like church all that much. He's a good kid and his teachers always like him. He also gives very good talks in primary. But I wonder what he really thinks.

My youngest, on the other hand, is a big old Jesus freak. My wife gave him a New Testemant Reader for Easter and he is constantly asking us to read his "My book about Jesus Christ." That's what he calls him, "Jesus Christ." All the time. You ever seen Frailty? That movie about the guy who feels called by God to kill demons? The younger brother in that always says he can see what his dad sees, and the whole time you're saying, yeah, you're just saying that to get dad's approval. But in the end, you find out different. That's what my youngest reminds me of. A little creepy. But he's still quite lovable. The only other thing he worships is Pokemon. What was that about not being able to serve two masters?

Right now I'm just trying to validate them as individuals, and trying to make the scriptures seem like interesting stories with multiple interpretations rather than untouchable divinity. But my youngest was not impressed with the way I turned the crazy guy Jesus casts the legion of devils out of into the Tazmanian Devil. Why do my kids not think I'm funny?

I am so funny.

I'm also trying to figure out who my kids are. I get sick in church when people say, the best gift you can give your parents is to stay true to the church they love. Bull poopy. The best gift you can give to your parents is to always be honest with them and expect honesty from them.

This question is getting more pertinent these days because my oldest is almost eight. I can't tell if he wants to be baptised or not. He keeps bringing up misgivings about it. The latest one is that he's afraid of getting water on his face, which is silly because we go swimming three times a week. We considered letting him wear his snorkel mask to the font. What do you think, would the bishop have a heart attack? :D

Because, you know there's something to be said for milestones. For rituals that make you feel part of a community. I want to give my boys the good the world has to offer while keeping them as free from idealogical bonds as possible (though I get the feeling that my youngest likes them). I still don't know what to do about the whole baptism thing.

Man, being the grownup is a pain.


Your eldest sounds like my 6 year old. One of the biggest things that attracted me to the church was the belief and maybe 'illusion' of a strong family and eternal marriage, blah blah blah.

I worried when my son was born about what I should do.
My husband is a good ethical man, non-mormon, cynic, but believes life is like a train journey, you get on the train and one day you get off, and go back to the station.

I still believe deeply in a creator and that life is about progression, I do find the idea of a pre-existence palatable, and I definitely believe in life after life, I'm not so sure on the reincarnation thing, but keep an open mind.

So what do I do with my son whom I love so much and want the best for.

What surprises me, is that I don't want him to become LDS, aaargh I can't believe I wrote that, but I don't, if he wants to that's another thing. But I have seen the LDS church turn too many good men into bigots to want my son going that way.

So I teach him about muslims, buddhists, christians, I teach him to wonder at the world and all that's in it. I teach him to love himself, and have confidence in his own ideas and opinions. He is a wonder boy at science and maths, takes my breath away.

I want to protect him from making bad decisions, but I know I need to give him the freedom to make and learn from his own choices.

I am so excited to watch him grow and develop.
I try to teach him good ethics, and hope that that will put him in good stead for the future.

Much as a suprise to many church members there are some fantastically strong, well rounded good families out there. The church certainly doesnt have a monopoly on strong families.

Mary

[noodle]

This is a question that is frequently on my mind as well, having two boys and a baby on the way.

My boys are very different. The oldest has a huge brain and an endearing stubborn streak. About a year ago, right during the sacrament, he got this look in his eye and said "I don't believe to God." I think he was trying to freak us out. It didn't really work though. We kept asking him why until he got sick of the subject. Too bad, I really wanted to know. He also doesn't like church all that much. He's a good kid and his teachers always like him. He also gives very good talks in primary. But I wonder what he really thinks.

My youngest, on the other hand, is a big old Jesus freak. My wife gave him a New Testemant Reader for Easter and he is constantly asking us to read his "My book about Jesus Christ." That's what he calls him, "Jesus Christ." All the time. You ever seen Frailty? That movie about the guy who feels called by God to kill demons? The younger brother in that always says he can see what his dad sees, and the whole time you're saying, yeah, you're just saying that to get dad's approval. But in the end, you find out different. That's what my youngest reminds me of. A little creepy. But he's still quite lovable. The only other thing he worships is Pokemon. What was that about not being able to serve two masters?

Right now I'm just trying to validate them as individuals, and trying to make the scriptures seem like interesting stories with multiple interpretations rather than untouchable divinity. But my youngest was not impressed with the way I turned the crazy guy Jesus casts the legion of devils out of into the Tazmanian Devil. Why do my kids not think I'm funny?

I am so funny.

I'm also trying to figure out who my kids are. I get sick in church when people say, the best gift you can give your parents is to stay true to the church they love. Bull poopy. The best gift you can give to your parents is to always be honest with them and expect honesty from them.

This question is getting more pertinent these days because my oldest is almost eight. I can't tell if he wants to be baptised or not. He keeps bringing up misgivings about it. The latest one is that he's afraid of getting water on his face, which is silly because we go swimming three times a week. We considered letting him wear his snorkel mask to the font. What do you think, would the bishop have a heart attack? :D

Because, you know there's something to be said for milestones. For rituals that make you feel part of a community. I want to give my boys the good the world has to offer while keeping them as free from idealogical bonds as possible (though I get the feeling that my youngest likes them). I still don't know what to do about the whole baptism thing.

Man, being the grownup is a pain.

Flotsam, you ARE funny! :D It sounds as though your kids are as great as you are. There are no easy answers to raising kids. I have three - one who at 22 is active and went on a mission, a 20 year old who likes to describe herself as more Buddhist than anything else (both were baptized at 8), and then the youngest, who was never baptized. They are all so unique. You will do just fine, following your best instincts as you tiptoe through this crazy thing called parenthood.

mamajama

PS: I LOVE your statement: I get sick in church when people say, the best gift you can give your parents is to stay true to the church they love. Bull poopy. The best gift you can give to your parents is to always be honest with them and expect honesty from them.
You are so right on!

[peter_mary]

I get sick in church when people say, the best gift you can give your parents is to stay true to the church they love. Bull poopy. The best gift you can give to your parents is to always be honest with them and expect honesty from them.



I concur...this sentiment makes me ill. I feel thrilled when I see my kids question what I believe, turn it over in their hands, examine it from the perspective of their own lives, and then either skip it across the surface of a pond, or stick it in their pocket to keep and examine later.

That's a gift.

To me.

It tells me that I raised thinkers, not automatons. It tells me that they have a chance to avoid the pitfalls of just taking something at face value without testing it to see if it resonates with their own experience and sense of moral reasoning.

And it tells me that they will likely get to keep their Sundays and 10% of their increase... :D

I also think that if you asked them what is the single most significant thing they ever learned from me, it would be that they were free to think their own thoughts, and explore their own conclusions. So this is a gift I gave myself, in a sense. Thank you. You're welcome.

I remember fondly sitting around the kitchen with my eldest, and talking with her about ideas of my own that challenged the seminary thinking she was learning. I watched it shake her up pretty badly, but we were having that conversation in such a way that she KNEW I had no expectations of her regarding what she chose to do with this information. She KNEW that I was sharing ideas, not facts, and that they were fair game for personal analysis. She went away thinking, and came back later and we talked at length about the thinking she had done. It was beautiful. And the ONLY thing I did was give her permission to climb out of the box and see the world on her own. She would have to do all the climbing and seeing and interpreting on her own, but just getting permission was a huge thing. I wish someone would have given me that permission...I had to give it to myself, and it was more than a little scary!

My boys have been the beneficiaries since then of "free-range thought" at our house, and so there wasn't the same kind of defining moment as there was with my eldest, but it's still the same. Now the permission is implied in our family culture.

I don't know, maybe I'm Satan... :cool:

Peter_Mary

[miss taken]

I love the responses here. I agree with so much of it, I do want to raise a thinker and not an automatron.

But what do you do about morals/ethics?

I don't want to teach him or encourage him to think that anything goes.

On my Child Development research we learned that many children dont learn to weigh up pro's and con's till they are a bit older. So, if someone stole, the younger they are, the more likely they would be to say it was wrong, as they hit the teenage years, they are more likely to ask questions about WHY someone stole, they are more likely to see around the subject.

My own opinion on ethics, and I know it is a wooley area, is that if an act/word is loving then that is good?

I want him to understand that to live in a civilised? society that we must all obey some rules for the safety of the society.

So, as a guideline, the ten commandments are pretty good.

What would be your 10 commandments for kids???
Mary

[dogzilla]

First, I think you shouldn't assume that lack of religion = immorality. There are plenty of atheists with strong moral values, and I'm one of them. For example, I don't believe with going around and smooshing in the soft spots on the tops of little babies' heads. That would be wrong. I don't think that just because I've had some religious training, either.

Second, the main reason I see for kids who cannot seem to distinguish between right and wrong (over the age of 8, mind you) is that the parents have not consistently enforced the idea of consequences. (And this will go back to my point above, just stay with me!) One need only watch Nanny 911 for about ten minutes to see what happens when you don't consistently enforce consequences.

Let's assume, for kicks and giggles, that I don't have any morals because I had no religious training. So I decide to go out and smoosh in the soft spot on the top of some baby's head. And the consequences could be that I would either be responsible for the baby's brain damage or for the baby's death, depending on how hard I smooshed. So maybe I like babies and didn't mean to damage or kill one... now I've learned the negative consequences for my actions and I will not choose to take that action again. And I've also noticed how there really weren't any positive consequence for my actions, so the act of smooshing the top of the baby's head was unrewarding in and of itself.

My apologies to anyone with babies who is creeped out by my example. It certainly gets your attention, doesn't it? :o

[miss taken]

[QUOTE=dogzilla]First, I think you shouldn't assume that lack of religion = immorality. There are plenty of atheists with strong moral values, and I'm one of them.


Dogzilla, I don't know what I have said that would lead you to assume that I believe that atheists don't have strong moral values, or that a lack of religion = immorality.

I'm talking about ethics completely separate from religion?

(Apologies if you are not referring to my post - always difficult when writing rather than talking!!!)
Mary

[Born Free]

I discovered Richard Packhams web site some years back. It has many great articles and one of the best collection of quotes re religion that you will find.

Here is a link to a good paper on religion and ethics and morality:

http://home.teleport.com/~packham/morality.htm

Here are a few quotes:

"Mormonism, on the other hand, carries some pretty heavy baggage for raising children. I find it morally wrong to brainwash little children into bearing their testimonies by saying "I know that President Hinckley is a prophet and the Book of Mormon is true" when they have no idea what that means; i.e., teaching them to lie.

I find it morally wrong to instill guilt in children about natural sexual impulses rather that educating them about sex. I find it reprehensible to stunt a child's curiosity by teaching it to simply accept what it is told by the church and not to question"

From the quotes page:

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

- Albert Einstein, in Time Magazine, 9 November 1930

Daryl

[peter_mary]

I I do want to raise a thinker and not an automatron.

But what do you do about morals/ethics?

I don't want to teach him or encourage him to think that anything goes.

Mary

This is it exactly...we want our kids to be skillful, thoughtful, deliberate human beings without thinking "anything goes." And how do you do that?

Damn good question.

For us, and we've both succeeded and failed at times, our objective was to explore with our kids WHY certain choices were unskillful, and why others were more skillful. We just engaged our kids in the conversation, and asked them what they thought, what they observed at school, how it made them feel, what they wanted, etc. And the truth is, they always could figure out what was going to move them in the right direction, and what was going to bite 'em in the butt.

But that doesn't mean they won't make mistakes. Hell, I make 'em, every day! Why should they be any different than I am? :) The difference now is that we talk openly about those choices, and how they impact them as an individual, me as a parent, and us as a family.

Now, having said that, I must confess that we haven't had to deal with much in the way of the really "Big Hitters" when it comes to raising adolescents. Still, my kids know that while they might be embarassed to tell me something, there aren't going to lose their heads if they do. I'm sure they keep secrets from me...what kid doesn't? But I also know they have thought through the tough issues, come to some significant conclusions, and have availed themselves to the opportunity to learn from the lessons that life deals them.

It's an ongoing process at our house. Sometimes I get tired, because it's a LOT harder work then to just say, "The Scriptures say so, now shut up and repent." But if I want the outcome, I have to pay the price. I believe it will be worth it...and thus far, I haven't been disappointed.

Peter_Mary

[miss taken]

I discovered Richard Packhams web site some years back. It has many great articles and one of the best collection of quotes re religion that you will find.

Here is a link to a good paper on religion and ethics and morality:

http://home.teleport.com/~packham/morality.htm

Here are a few quotes:

"Mormonism, on the other hand, carries some pretty heavy baggage for raising children. I find it morally wrong to brainwash little children into bearing their testimonies by saying "I know that President Hinckley is a prophet and the Book of Mormon is true" when they have no idea what that means; i.e., teaching them to lie.

I find it morally wrong to instill guilt in children about natural sexual impulses rather that educating them about sex. I find it reprehensible to stunt a child's curiosity by teaching it to simply accept what it is told by the church and not to question"

From the quotes page:

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

- Albert Einstein, in Time Magazine, 9 November 1930

Daryl

Thanks Daryl, this article looks very interesting
Mary

[dogzilla]

Miss Taken, what I was trying to say is beautifully summed up in the Einsten quote that Daryl posted.

I didn't mean to imply anything other than it sounded like you are struggling with teaching morality without the structure of a religion to provide the framework for that morality.

Make sense?

I love Einstein.

[peter_mary]

I was thinking about this on my way to work this morning, and had the following thought.

I think most people, teens included, are in possession of a moral compass of sorts. Some call it a "conscience", some call it the Holy Ghost, for me it's a cricket... :D But for reasons which I happen to believe are built into our DNA, we have the innate willingness to cooperate with our fellow human beings. I think it's a part of our evolutionary path, and the reason why as a species we are so successful. Generally speaking, we get along with each other to such an extent that we have populated virtually every single niche on dry land. It is to our biological advantage to do so.

So the compass is already there. What I think religion does is tells you that your compass doesn't work, and so they guide you/control you with their compass. As a result, we forget how to get along with people outside the context of religion, and so we actually assume that absent religion, we can't get along. How many times do we hear that in the absence of religion there would only be chaos? If that's true, (and I don't believe it actually is) it's because we have forgotten that we are the ones in possession of those compasses, and we can learn again how to use them. It's "in us" to do so.

So with our kids, I believe that our responsibility is to teach them how to use their own moral compass. It is a working tool, they just need to learn the necessary skills to make use of it. And they need the safety to know that if, in the process of learning they make a mistake, that you are there to help them get back on course.

Perhaps that's part of the reason why I so dislike Lehi's dream. It completely renounces the possibility that human beings are capable of moral thought on their own, and that one slip (let go of the Iron Rod), one misstep, and you are lost in the fog or drowning in the river. And the only way God is going to help you out is if you come begging for mercy and forgiveness, and then maybe he will and maybe he won't. I just don't believe that anymore...

This is Peter_Mary, signing off from somewhere out in the fog, having no idea where that damn iron rod has gotten to .. :D

[silverfox]

I was thinking about this on my way to work this morning, and had the following thought.

I think most people, teens included, are in possession of a moral compass of sorts. Some call it a "conscience", some call it the Holy Ghost, for me it's a cricket... :D But for reasons which I happen to believe are built into our DNA, we have the innate willingness to cooperate with our fellow human beings. I think it's a part of our evolutionary path, and the reason why as a species we are so successful. Generally speaking, we get along with each other to such an extent that we have populated virtually every single niche on dry land. It is to our biological advantage to do so.

So the compass is already there. What I think religion does is tells you that your compass doesn't work, and so they guide you/control you with their compass. As a result, we forget how to get along with people outside the context of religion, and so we actually assume that absent religion, we can't get along. How many times do we hear that in the absence of religion there would only be chaos? If that's true, (and I don't believe it actually is) it's because we have forgotten that we are the ones in possession of those compasses, and we can learn again how to use them. It's "in us" to do so.

So with our kids, I believe that our responsibility is to teach them how to use their own moral compass. It is a working tool, they just need to learn the necessary skills to make use of it. And they need the safety to know that if, in the process of learning they make a mistake, that you are there to help them get back on course.

Perhaps that's part of the reason why I so dislike Lehi's dream. It completely renounces the possibility that human beings are capable of moral thought on their own, and that one slip (let go of the Iron Rod), one misstep, and you are lost in the fog or drowning in the river. And the only way God is going to help you out is if you come begging for mercy and forgiveness, and then maybe he will and maybe he won't. I just don't believe that anymore...

This is Peter_Mary, signing off from somewhere out in the fog, having no idea where that damn iron rod has gotten to .. :D

This was just beautiful. I love your observation. And I agree with it.

Oh and the iron rod's whereabouts? I believe it is where th sun doesn't shine - somewhere in downtown Salt Lake. :p

[Jeff_Ricks]

This is Peter_Mary, signing off from somewhere out in the fog, having no idea where that damn iron rod has gotten to .. :D

Just follow Jiminy's still small voice. But watch your step as you grope about in the fog. Talk about losing your moral compass! :eek: You'd be scraping your's off the bottom of your shoe! :D

Jeff

[peter_mary]

Just follow Jiminy's still small voice. But watch your step as you grope about in the fog. Talk about losing your moral compass! :eek: You'd be scraping your's off the bottom of your shoe! :D

Jeff

Plus, if I'm "groping" about in the fog with the rest of you PostMo's, I'm likely to get my face slapped. :o Probably better keep my hands in my pockets...

Peter_Mary

[miss taken]

Miss Taken, what I was trying to say is beautifully summed up in the Einsten quote that Daryl posted.

I didn't mean to imply anything other than it sounded like you are struggling with teaching morality without the structure of a religion to provide the framework for that morality.

Make sense?

I love Einstein.

No problem Dogzilla!

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

- Albert Einstein, in Time Magazine, 9 November 1930

I've been thinking about this quote, and I do agree with it. I'm not so sure about the social ties bit... we're not social puppets (I hope), and I do agree with Paul's thinking about us evolving to get along that makes a lot of sense. I am incredibly cynical about any organised religion at the mo, despite my best efforts not t be, but does religion have to be about 'fear of punishment and hope of reward after death'. I know in mormondom this is very true. I always hated it. I don't know why I hated it but I did. We should act because of the intrinsic value of doing something beneficial, not because we think we are going to be rewarded in an afterlife... Einstein obviously sees religion in that way, but is it always like that in all religions? I'm pretty sure christianity and Islam are like it, I wonder about Buddhism and Hinduism? I know that Ancient Egyptian theology also contained an element of balancing all the good and evil acts we had done, and being rewarded and punished accordingly, so maybe the Jews got it from the Egyptians? I don't know.

Mary

[dogzilla]

Buddhism and Hinduism are not like that at all, which is why, IMHO, many post-mos end up leaning that way after separating from the church.

I recommend www.wikipedia.com for just learning the general gist of those religions. You'll be pleasantly surprised.

[miss taken]

Thanks Dogzilla.

I'm still thinking about this one, so thanks for the thread, very thought provoking.

I was thinking about the 'fear of punishment and hope for reward' issue.

I was thinking that maybe some religions are just an extension of family practices.

What I mean is that when I really analyse my own behaviour to my son, that I often....

punish him when he has done something unacceptable or dangerous to himself or others

reward him when he has done something acceptable and so on.

When I say punish, I don't necessarily mean give him a slap, though when he stuck his hand in the fire as a toddler, I slapped his legs almost instinctively, not out of anger but I wanted him to remember not to do it again, and so far he hasn't. Same when he bit me, as a toddler, I gave him a little bite back, to give him a taste/experience of what he had done. So far that has worked to, he hasn't bitten since....

I might reprove him, on occassion get a little angry with him, or just simply talk things through with him. I try to use my best judgement, which is often imperfect of course.

When he does something like say 'thankyou' (which he often forgets) I'll praise him and say well done. If he forgets, I'll remind him that it is polite.

What I'm saying is I wonder if I am being a hypocrite in often rewarding for behaviour I approve of (whether that be by approval or any other way) and punish for behaviour I disapprove of. Yet critisising religions for doing the same thing on a macro basis, and pinning it on a 'god' parent.???

Mary

[miss taken]

Sorry if my thinking is a bit unco-ordinated on this one.
I guess that it maybe is okay to punish/reward when children are young, (which mine is), but at some point they need to take responsibility for their own decisions/ life.

I think that is why I always, always felt like a spiritual child in the church. It was like, God would never let me grow up and think for myself.

Yet the church does teach, 'teach the people correct principals and let them govern themselves'. but on an everyday level I just never felt spiritually mature enough to do it, because someone else always knew better?
Does that make sense?

[dogzilla]

You are definitely making sense. You seem to be working through the idea(s) that it's one thing to reward/punish a being that is still in development and another thing to reward/punish a mature adult.

You must teach your children consequences, good and bad, for their choices (I think this is where the "social ties" part of Einstein's comment comes in.) because as humans, we do not get to behave in a vacuum. Every word and action has an effect on another human being.

It's another thing altogether for an organization to treat its congregation as if they do not have the capacity to recognize good/evil for themselves. In many Christian religions, much lip service is paid to free agency, but I think that's just the carrot used to suck you in. In my experience, I didn't have many choices at all about behavior: behave within the standard or suffer the negative consequences. There is no reward in Christianity for questioning authority. (And conversely, to bring this back around to our original comparison... you may choose to reward your children for questioning your authority. Peter_Mary thinks it's a gift to him, because he knows it means his children are thinking for themselves...)

Buddhism and Hinduism aren't even structured the same way, in terms of the primary diety being an "authority" over the worshippers. The eastern religions, IMHO (and this is why I like them) place the responsibility for our choices squarely in our own hands. Eat a cow, don't eat a cow, it's up to you. (Hindu) But, as a Hindu, if you believe in reincarnation, that cow you're about to eat could really be the reincarnated soul of Aunt Sally and now you're turned off your steak... But no authority figure said, "Don't eat that cow or you will go to hell!" You made the choice because of your belief system.

Listen to me... I don't even LIKE kids... :rolleyes:

[peter_mary]

I was thinking that maybe some religions are just an extension of family practices.

What I mean is that when I really analyse my own behaviour to my son, that I often....

punish him when he has done something unacceptable or dangerous to himself or others

reward him when he has done something acceptable and so on.

What I'm saying is I wonder if I am being a hypocrite in often rewarding for behaviour I approve of (whether that be by approval or any other way) and punish for behaviour I disapprove of. Yet critisising religions for doing the same thing on a macro basis, and pinning it on a 'god' parent.???

Mary

Is it any wonder that we call God "Father in Heaven?" Perhaps He is nothing more than a projection of ourselves, onto the most ultimate parental figure we can think of, who can mete out the most ultimate blessings and punishments possible. And by all means, let's bring that Mother in Heaven in here to examine Her guilt inducing nagging, too! :D

Peter_Mary

[Jeff_Ricks]

Is it any wonder that we call God "Father in Heaven?" Perhaps He is nothing more than a projection of ourselves, onto the most ultimate parental figure we can think of, who can mete out the most ultimate blessings and punishments possible. And by all means, let's bring that Mother in Heaven in here to examine Her guilt inducing nagging, too! :D

Peter_Mary

I agree that the "Father" part is extension of our own father figures. I also think the "in Heaven" part is a carry over from ancient sun worshipping CULTures of our distant past. I have to smile when on movies, old movies in particular, when they want to depict someone getting in touch with God or talking with God they have them looking up, even if its in a building and all they can see is the plaster on the ceiling. Sometimes they even have a bright light shining on their face. When I used to attend a Christian church, even back then when I was still a believer I watched people raise their hands in the air and look up (at the plaster again I suppose) I couldn't help but see remnants of sun worship in it.

Jeff

[miss taken]

I just remembered a talk given by one of the GA's back when I was in my early 20's. He said that the saddest song ever written was the one sung by Frank Sinatra

'I did it my way'

His point was that we DONT do it our way, but GOD's.

Of course he didn't talk about the fact that the LDS God view is only one of many.

But it is a view that suggests that we rely on the church and not our own thinking, which again leads us to be perpetually children..

Mary

[helemon]

I have a teen daughter and a 10 yo daughter still at home. I have mixed feelings regarding raising them in a Christian home. We don't attend any church, don't really have a desire to. If I ever decided to attend a church it would probably be for social reasons. But at this time, there is no interest.

However, I feel strongly that one's belief in God/Christ should be and is very personal. I want my kids to have the option to form their own beliefs. However, I have struggled with teaching them because of my own "non beliefs".

My question is - for you Post Mo parents how have you handled Christianity and your children?



I am in a similar boat. I don't attend church but my wife does even though she doesn't believe it is "true" she thinks it fits her best of other churches we've tried. Now she wants my kids baptised mormon so that they will have at least been baptised somewhere and to please my parents and her parents who are still active. I personally don't like the idea. She informed me a while back that the girls had been receiving missionary discussions while at church. This bothered me quite a bit. I was offended and hurt that she would hide this from me. Right now I am not sure what to do. My wife really wants them baptised and the kids who have been going to the mormon church of course want to be baptized like their friends at church. I agree that the kids should have some religious training I am just not comfortable with them being baptized into a church I believe is false. I have been meaning to go to a Quaker meeting. My wife however is not interested in the Quakers. So what to do.....?

[helemon]

I couldn't help but see remnants of sun worship in it.

Jeff

I am reminded of the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy series where it talks about the planet where the sun was blocked by the particles of giant computer. Since they had no conception of sun, moon or stars, instead of saying lets go for a walk beneath the stars they would say lets go for a walk above the grass. It makes you wonder how religion would be different in a world where the celestial movements could not be observed.

[silverfox]

I am in a similar boat. I don't attend church but my wife does even though she doesn't believe it is "true" she thinks it fits her best of other churches we've tried. Now she wants my kids baptised mormon so that they will have at least been baptised somewhere and to please my parents and her parents who are still active. I personally don't like the idea. She informed me a while back that the girls had been receiving missionary discussions while at church. This bothered me quite a bit. I was offended and hurt that she would hide this from me. Right now I am not sure what to do. My wife really wants them baptised and the kids who have been going to the mormon church of course want to be baptized like their friends at church. I agree that the kids should have some religious training I am just not comfortable with them being baptized into a church I believe is false. I have been meaning to go to a Quaker meeting. My wife however is not interested in the Quakers. So what to do.....?

I faced the same issue with hubby. He insisted our (9 yo at the time) receive missionary discussions. I compromised and said yes ONLY if I could attend and present my thoughts, beliefs, etc.

It would have made me batty had he done it behind my back, though. I am not sure how I would react. I would probably insist on some kind of compromise.

Hubby and I agreed after the few lessons from mishies (they didn't last long with my presence and me adding my 2 cents worth) that daughter should wait until she is 18 and make her own choice.

I realize I was lucky that he was willing to back off. And am not sure how I would have reacted had he not.

I feel for your situation. Keep the communication open with your kids and be sure to present your ideas and beliefs when the opportunity arises.

Best wishes.

[maleficent]

this discussion has gone into so many interesting directions, i wish i had been part of it from the start.

my kids are 7 and 2. so far we have not brought any religious beliefs into the picture. (dh is staunch agnostic and i teeter between agnostic and athiest) we know we strongly preferr that they not be either mormons or catholics. (but whatever they choose we would support.) yet the only two religions they have EVER been exposed to are mormon, tagging along with my parents, and catholic, tagging along with DH's parents. WHAT HAVE WE DONE?

dogzilla's recomendation that we expose them to several denomimations is a hard one because neither of us have any desire what-so-ever to explore religion, at least not at this point, and our kids have not expressed an interest. and i have a very real fear of being sucked into another religion because of social pressures and friendships.

i fear that religion would appear to our kids as a wonderful and fantastic thing. look at all the fun! everyone is happy. they are singing, we like to sing! they give you treats, we like treats! there is NOTHING negative about religion when you're a child. you have friends and everyone loves you and all you have to do is say you believe in what they tell you and you get praised.

i have a sever dislike for the way any religion is presented to children.

but by waiting untill our kids are past the childlike believe-anything-anyone-tells-you phase are we setting ourselves up for a different kind of problem? are they going to be upset that we didn't offer up church to them at a young age? will they believe the first person to ever tell them about god and jesus and be easily persuaded becasue they were never given a starting point?

i've been told that these worrys are a normal part of parenting. and that no matter what you do there is always the chance that it will screw up your kids. i just want so badly to get things "right" and raise my kids to be independant thinking people.

so basically i live in fear of the day my kids start to ask about god. i have no idea what we will do.

[dogzilla]

Maleficant, I can understand your hesitation about taking your very impressionable kids to a bunch of different churches. Especially, if they don't really have much interest, your message will be mostly lost. They will learn to "grade" denominations by the quality of treats offered. ("Let's see, the mormons give us stale white bread and stagnant water. The Methodists give us grape juice and whole wheat crackers. The Catholics give us WINE! Moooo-ooom! We wanna be Catholics!")

I do not believe your children would ever be angry if you didn't teach them anything at all about God and Jesus or your beliefs. I see nothing at all wrong with raising kids without religion. They'll still ask you questions about what you believe and you can share that information with them. God and Jesus may very well come up and you will probably not have anything to do with that. (Sort of like sex, puberty and reproduction -- they'll ask questions regardless if you set up a slide show, give 'em books, take 'em to the red light district or say nothing at all...) So when they ask, just tell 'em, "Everybody believes different things and that's okay. Here's what I believe. When you grow up, you can make your own choices."

And you can always leave books around the house -- not push it on 'em but making sure that information is available if they wish to seek it out for themselves.

I think it's of utmost importance that you teach them critical thinking skills before they go off to college, get homesick and allow some fundy campus crusaders try to get their hands on your kids. 18-21 is young enough to still be sucked in by the cults if kids don't have their heads screwed on straight and are armed with information and the ability to question, argue and defend their beliefs. We've all seen it happen...

[templenamesarah]

(dh is staunch agnostic and i teeter between agnostic and athiest)

For some reason this sentence struck me as funny. I'm not used to thinking of agnostics as staunch about much of anything. ;)

[maleficent]

For some reason this sentence struck me as funny. I'm not used to thinking of agnostics as staunch about much of anything. ;)

it's a contradiction isn't it. lol.

i suppose what i meant is that he has no feeling either way and is happy at that. he cant be bothered with people trying to persuade him that there is "a truth" to be found.

it's pretty frustrating when i'm having a theology crissis and he just says "it is or it isn't and you'll have to wait till you die to find out."

he's right, i'm just the "i wanna know now!" (stomp your feet and pout) type.

[peter_mary]

I think it's of utmost importance that you teach them critical thinking skills before they go off to college, get homesick and allow some fundy campus crusaders try to get their hands on your kids. 18-21 is young enough to still be sucked in by the cults if kids don't have their heads screwed on straight and are armed with information and the ability to question, argue and defend their beliefs. We've all seen it happen...

Ummm...I was 19 when I joined the Mormons...'nuff said. :duh

Peter_Mary

[miss taken]

I think one of the things that concerned me about some of Tom's opinions, was in regard to my child.

I love him deeply and dearly as we all love our children.
If I really believed the church to be beneficial AND completely true in history, doctrine and so forth, then of course I would want to bring him up in it.

The test of my conviction for me, is that, well should he want to join any church then that's for him to decide when he is old enough, but I want him to have good ethics no matter what he believes, and I do not see the church as essential to that or even wholly positive, this is why I am so interested in how atheists, or post theists adopt an ethical system. My husband is pretty atheistic with agnostic tendencies. He is also deeply ethical. I put that down to his very conservative though totally non-religious parents. He is principled and has good morals. I like him!!!! and our son will no doubt be influenced by both of us, and the culture he lives in - school, friends and so forth.

Mary