Politically Conservative Post-Mo

[free thinker]

I must say I begin this thread with some trepidation! Never the less I feel the time has come for me to mention this. If I am ostracized for it then so be it.Also I want to stay within the boundaries stated at the top of the community forum. I think being overtly political is sometimes a detriment when people are trying to come together and support each other. It is one more thing to divide, instead of unite.

Having said that, I think it may be helpful for someone who may come to this site as a conservative post-mo. They may be comforted knowing there is at least one other person who shares that commonality.

I have no intention of beginning a debate about the possible incongruities of post-mormonism and conservative politics. I am just not interested in that. I will answer any questions you may have of me though.

I come by my politics honestly! I have been conservative from the get go! I am a free marketeer, and most of my conservatism is based on economics. The " Invisible Hand "ect., written about by Adam Smith in "The wealth of Nations". Markets work in my opinion, and most things that inhibit them are, I think, a detriment to the greater economic good of society in general. This is of course just my opinion!

When it comes to social issues I am more liberal in my thinking.

I think George Bush is a good president. I don't agree with everything he has done, but I do not see him as evil incarnate. I did not agree with many things that Bill Clinton did either, nor do I see him as evil incarnate. In fact, I think he made some very wise decisions as president. Some that were quite helpful to the economy.

So there it is. If this makes me a pariah here then so be it! I am already a pariah in mormon land. I could end up getting used to it!! :D But I had to say something. I just felt I was being a bit dishonest in my reticence!

Free Thinker

[silverfox]

I must say I begin this thread with some trepidation! Never the less I feel the time has come for me to mention this. If I am ostracized for it then so be it.Also I want to stay within the boundaries stated at the top of the community forum. I think being overtly political is sometimes a detriment when people are trying to come together and support each other. It is one more thing to divide, instead of unite.

Having said that, I think it may be helpful for someone who may come to this site as a conservative post-mo. They may be comforted knowing there is at least one other person who shares that commonality.

I have no intention of beginning a debate about the possible incongruities of post-mormonism and conservative politics. I am just not interested in that. I will answer any questions you may have of me though.

I come by my politics honestly! I have been conservative from the get go! I am a free marketeer, and most of my conservatism is based on economics. The " Invisible Hand "ect., written about by Adam Smith in "The wealth of Nations". Markets work in my opinion, and most things that inhibit them are, I think, a detriment to the greater economic good of society in general. This is of course just my opinion!

When it comes to social issues I am more liberal in my thinking.

I think George Bush is a good president. I don't agree with everything he has done, but I do not see him as evil incarnate. I did not agree with many things that Bill Clinton did either, nor do I see him as evil incarnate. In fact, I think he made some very wise decisions as president. Some that were quite helpful to the economy.

So there it is. If this makes me a pariah here then so be it! I am already a pariah in mormon land. I could end up getting used to it!! :D But I had to say something. I just felt I was being a bit dishonest in my reticence!

Free Thinker

Heeeeee you crack me up free thinker! I don't see why we can't have a discussion regarding politics without anyone having to worry about being ostracized. Especially in the way you present yourself. And I am absolutely positive you are not the only political conservative on board here.

I am the opposite - I am liberal when it comes to politics so obviously I didn't vote for Bush and will be happy when he is out of office. :D

However I feel that with any president they can bring some good to the people and the nation. There will never be just ONE president that can make every one happy or fulfill ALL the needs of the country.

What is most challenging when it comes to politics, IMO, is it is very hard when you don't like any of the candidates who are running for president. Sooooooooo.........for our next election ---------

I say JEFF RICKS FOR PRESIDENT! :p

[dogzilla]

Look here, freethinker, this is a message board for recovering post-MORMONS... Recovering from political conservatism is another board.

I'll be happy to point you to a link, when you're ready.

(I'm kidding. I'm a die-hard, bleeding heart, pinko, commie liberal leftist. I'll try not to hold your conservatism against you. I'll also try to contain myself when I get sidetracked into a political rant. I respect everyone's right to believe whatever nonsense works for them. ;) )

[nate]

(I'm kidding. I'm a die-hard, bleeding heart, pinko, commie liberal leftist. I'll try not to hold your conservatism against you. I'll also try to contain myself when I get sidetracked into a political rant. I respect everyone's right to believe whatever nonsense works for them. ;) )

Amen! (ooohh...did I just say that!!?! :Puking )

I say, why be left or right? Let's acknowledge the value of both hands, the crusty dirt on both, wash up and be ambidextrous!

[peter_mary]

Free Thinker,

How could anyone take issue with your post of, "dude, I'm a conservative, deal with it!" when you're such a positive, upbeat kinda guy? ;)

But enough about you, back to me... :D

This is actually an interesting subject, and I'm glad you brought it up. I have always been a conservative. Grew up in a Republican household, voted for Reagan, voted for Bush I, even voted for Bush II the FIRST time around.

And then a funny thing happened. The more estranged I became from the Church and from Christianity, the more liberal I became. I'm not saying the two are mutually exclusive, don't get me wrong. All I'm saying is that for ME, the more I moved away from the "morally conservative thought" of Christianity and Mormonism, the more liberal I became.

Today, I'm pretty much out there, politically speaking, on the far left. I'm an advocate (vocally) on environmental issues, I'm a proponant of health-care reform, I want our boys and girls home from Iraq as soon as humanly possible, and I feel a responsibility as a nation to help take care of those who, for whatever reason, can't take care of themselves very well.

Go figure.

It makes it hard, by the way, to have a conversation with my Dad these days, 'cause he can't hardly hear me over Fox News and Bill O'Reilly... :eek:

There are still a few areas that I would be considered conservative, but NOTHING like I once was.

For me, and I promise, Free Thinker, that I'm not saying anything about you in this next statement, but for ME, I think that when I stopped being Christian, ironically enough, is when I really started about caring about everyone else. The world was no longer about me and my salvation and my eternal needs. Instead, it was about the recognition that the trees, the wolves, the mountains, and all the other people were in fact my brothers and sisters, and my attention turned to them. And away from God. I could no longer depend on God to make everything right "in the big scheme of things," I had only myself to do what I could...and it isn't much. But it could be more, and that's the budding awareness of the liberal inside me.

What is actually very refreshing to me, Free Thinker, is that I THINK part of what you are saying is that there is a moral high road from a conservative point of view, too, that is NOT bound up in conservative RELIGIOUS dogma. For some dumb reason, that's easier for me to respect. I struggle with the conservative RELIGIOUS thinking that seems to be more and more governing the decisions of our leaders. I'm certain that brings great comfort to those who are similarly oriented, but it is actually very threatening to me. Sigh...

But thank you, Free Thinker, for tossing this issue out there on the table to ruminate on for a while.

Peter_Mary

[Jeff_Ricks]

What is most challenging when it comes to politics, IMO, is it is very hard when you don't like any of the candidates who are running for president. Sooooooooo.........for our next election ---------

I say JEFF RICKS FOR PRESIDENT! :p

Thanks, I'm flattered but Dubya needs to clean up his own mess! :D

[pokatator]

Basically, in Mo-ville I was conservative. After leaving Mo-ville 20 years ago I went quite the opposite. I think it was feeling out process, testing my new wings of freedom and some rebellion. Over the years I have tended to coast back to being more conservative, and more like free-thinker. But bascially I feel the only difference between a Republican and a Democrat is one's in and the other's trying to get in. Both parties play both ends to the middle and the little people tend to lose no matter who's "in".

Randy

[dogzilla]

Marginally related amusing anecdote:

My dad, a TBM, may be one of the only Democratic Mormons I'm aware of. He tends to vote Democratic because he lives in the Rust Belt, where auto manufacturing is still the big gorilla in terms of employers. He is, therefore, a card-carrying UAW union member, relies on the auto industry to feed himself and his wife, and tends to follow union voting platforms, which makes him a sort of de facto Democrat. In many other ways, ideologically, he's more of a Republican, but I'm proud to post that he thought W. is a moron and voted for The Other Guy. Usually votes for whoever the Unions endorse. He was the one who sent me a petition to sign to not allow Bush to remove overtime pay from 6 million Americans. Alas, that legislation went through and barely even made the news. Nobody ever talks about how W. just ripped off 6 million of his constituency.

So one of his co-workers was doing their little Republican anti-abortion dance at work and quizzed my dad as to whom he intended to vote. When he learned of Dad's intention to vote Democratic he expressed his astonishment, "I thought you were against abortion!"

My dad, in his very typical way (you'd have to know him) looked at the guy like he was an idiot and said, "Well, I am against abortion. But just what do you think George W. is going to do about it? The President can't do anything about abortion. You want to stop abortion? You give me 20 14-year-olds for one year in Sunday School... and I'll make sure none of 'em ever have an abortion."
:D
As creepy as the idea is (to me) of my dad teaching 14-year-olds in Sunday School about abortion... I had to laugh. At least he's not so ignorant that he shows he clearly understands how the legislative, judicial and executive branches of government work.

[free thinker]

For me, and I promise, Free Thinker, that I'm not saying anything about you in this next statement, but for ME, I think that when I stopped being Christian, ironically enough, is when I really started about caring about everyone else. The world was no longer about me and my salvation and my eternal needs. Instead, it was about the recognition that the trees, the wolves, the mountains, and all the other people were in fact my brothers and sisters, and my attention turned to them. And away from God. I could no longer depend on God to make everything right "in the big scheme of things," I had only myself to do what I could...and it isn't much. But it could be more, and that's the budding awareness of the liberal inside me.

Peter Mary

I completetly understand this as I am experiencing this same thing in my life as a first year post-mo. I certainly have become more liberal in regards to social issues. I too have begun, ironically, to be more compassionate and concerned about others. I have a long way to go though. I don't feel as though you are pointing a finger at me! No worries!!! I very much enjoy reading your posts. I find I can relate to a great deal of what you have to say. I also respect your inciteful, intellectual, and yet unrelenting analysis of many moism issues. I hope you will remain as srident in your opinions as you have in the past, concerning the current state of moism, and the pressure it puts on it's adherents!!

Politics, I think, as someone has put it, " is something on which reasonable men may disagree". I think many who are on opposite ends of the political spectrum have as much in common, as not.

Let me finally say this about the RELIGIOUS RIGHT!! These folks have highjacked the republican party! There are many, and I am one, who consider them dangerous. I am convinced that if these people had the opportunity they would commit atrocity in the name of god as many zealots of the past, and present have. I do not like Falwell or Robinson and all their ilk. I would include some overzealous mormons in this group also. As I said above, most of my conservatism is based on economics. I am saddened that folks like these vote like I do. The sooner we can take the party back from these nuts, the better off everyone would be. We could get back to debating the issues based on merit, instead of appealing to divine approval. God, in my opinion, doesn't give a damn about politics!!! :duh Cool new smilie!!

Free Thinker

[free thinker]

Look here, freethinker, this is a message board for recovering post-MORMONS... Recovering from political conservatism is another board.

I'll be happy to point you to a link, when you're ready.

(I'm kidding. I'm a die-hard, bleeding heart, pinko, commie liberal leftist. I'll try not to hold your conservatism against you. I'll also try to contain myself when I get sidetracked into a political rant. I respect everyone's right to believe whatever nonsense works for them. )
__________________

Hey Dogzilla

Will they send me to a special school or something? :D

I like your rants! Not quite sure if I agree with your assessment of Bush though. I think he is intelligent enough. Many saw Bill Clinton as an immoral con man. This, I think, was unfortunate for his detractors. He was a gifted politician, and a genious when it came to reading, and working with people. I did not agree with him on the issues, but I respected his talent, and charisma. His enthusiasm was infectious. Like all people he made mistakes.

It is always a mistake to underestimate your opponent. Or should I say misunderestimate!! :D

Rock On!!! :D

Free Thinker

[miss taken]

When I was living over in Utah, I got the impression that to be a good mormon you needed to vote republican. That may be the wrong impression, but all the same it was the impression I got.

Over here in the UK, we have 2 main party's and one following up the rear, and a first past the post system that is not entirely fair (so in the Thatcher years - only about 40% of the country voted for her but she got in because the other 60% was split - those figures may not be exactly right but hope you get my drift).

So, here we have conservative, labour and liberal democrats, those are the main three. Labour has won the day for 2 terms now, and I think a general election will be called next week for May.

I have NO idea who to vote for, since labour have become increasingly right, and the conservatives have become increasingly liberal. A minefield, but I am happy in principle with a party that allows competition and a free market with some restraints, and has a taxation system which cares for the needy, and sick, and gives us all a safe, competitive country to live in.

I'm glad that moral issues like abortion don't seem to rest with any one particular party, though there has been some high profile publicity on it because of the number of babies who manage to survive premature at an age when it is still legal to abort them.

I'll have to see what the manifesto's are like.

Mary

(sorry if this post is boring!!!)

[silverfox]

(so in the Thatcher years - only about 40% of the country voted for her but she got in because the other 60% was split - those figures may not be exactly right but hope you get my drift).



Hmmmmmm...sounds somewhat familiar to the first George Dubya election. :D

[bigeddy]

I hope that by now many of you have realized that I love the dialectical process. I have great respect for the courage shown by our free thinking member.

I, for one, am an apolitical person with plenty of politcal positions and opinions. :Crazy: More than anything I want to see a place, just one small, itsy bitsy, place; be it a website, a town meeting or whatever, where the dialectical process has not gotten lost in our national regression since 9/11.

The idea that we can love and accept one-another while totally disagreeing, is wonderful in my eyes (nose and mouth included). If we can also trust the process to allow all of us to grow vertically through this dialectic, then, I will go out in my backyard and sing the Hallelujah Chorus to all my neighbors, the birds and the oak brush. (its okay, they already think I'm crazy.)

Ed

[free thinker]

The idea that we can love and accept one-another while totally disagreeing, is wonderful in my eyes (nose and mouth included). If we can also trust the process to allow all of us to grow vertically through this dialectic, then, I will go out in my backyard and sing the Hallelujah Chorus to all my neighbors, the birds and the oak brush. (its okay, they already think I'm crazy.)

Ed


Thank you bideddy! Coming from you I consider that a great compliment.

I enjoy your writing, and like you, truly enjoy the dialectic process. One thing I have learned from my experience here is that bringing judgement into the process, only impedes learning, communicating, and healing!!

Here's to vertical growth!!

Free Thinker

[bigeddy]

I attended a meeting once where our Area Director of Church Education started the meeting by putting scriptures on the board about not judging others. He stated that the subject of our training that day was "Judge not that ye be not judged." I had just finished reading Carol Lynn Pearson's book about her gay ex-husband who died of aids and I was dealing with a sweet young man who had revealed to me that he was gay even though he had never acted upon it. I was worrying about how to help him within a mo community (his mother was one of my seminary teachers in Florida). So I loved this topic and wanted to participate.

After I opened up about my struggles to find a non-judgemental attitude in moism for these wonderful people I got blasted. The other men spent the next 2 hours yelling at me and justifying their right to judge gays. :confused:

What happened to the topic of the day??? We love to say that we don't judge while we are judging. I guess the momomo boys and girls should say "we believe in not judging others, except for those we want to judge."

I agree with you 100% that when we start judging others or their opinions the growth stops. It is a sign of a closed mind and that type mind cannot grow.

Ed