Mormonism = arrested development?

[formermormon]

A post on the BYU visit thread got me thinking - do mormons ever really grow up?

I admit that the overwhelming feeling I have when around my older relatives who are TBM's is that they are "sweet" and well-meaning, but that they aren't truly adults. I feel like I'm missing out on the possibility of true wisdom and mentorship from them. In fact, I feel more "mature" than them in many ways, even though I am FAR from wise at this point myself (mid 30's).

I suppose it comes from the perpetual child-like state the church expects - absolute deference to authority. The GA's will tell us how to live, think, feel, be. It keeps individuals from evolving - they don't work out the difficult moral dilemmas inherent in life - they don't explore, investigate, engage in intellectual growth. Why would they? The church already has all of the answers. The outside world of scholarship and engagement mostly just poses a potential threat. Thus, one avoids confronting reality and growing from that.

What do you think? Does anybody else feel this way? (And I don't just mean the lifelong jello and Kool-aid appreciation.)

[miss taken]

A post on the BYU visit thread got me thinking - do mormons ever really grow up?

I admit that the overwhelming feeling I have when around my older relatives who are TBM's is that they are "sweet" and well-meaning, but that they aren't truly adults. I feel like I'm missing out on the possibility of true wisdom and mentorship from them. In fact, I feel more "mature" than them in many ways, even though I am FAR from wise at this point myself (mid 30's).

I suppose it comes from the perpetual child-like state the church expects - absolute deference to authority. The GA's will tell us how to live, think, feel, be. It keeps individuals from evolving - they don't work out the difficult moral dilemmas inherent in life - they don't explore, investigate, engage in intellectual growth. Why would they? The church already has all of the answers. The outside world of scholarship and engagement mostly just poses a potential threat. Thus, one avoids confronting reality and growing from that.

What do you think? Does anybody else feel this way? (And I don't just mean the lifelong jello and Kool-aid appreciation.)


For me, this is absolutely 100% how I felt. Always on the first rung of a ladder.
Mary

[bigeddy]

Tom Barberi a SLC talk show host often said that the day MAY come when adulthood will be legalized in Utah.

The sad part of all this is the numbers of people seeking help from the directed source--bishops and stake prezies. I have worked with many people who took relatively simple issues to these folks and met with a paucity of wisdom that would make Bart Simpson look like a sage.

When the program reruns fifth grade for an eternity, who can grow?

Ed

[Jeff_Ricks]

Tom Barberi a SLC talk show host often said that the day MAY come when adulthood will be legalized in Utah.

The sad part of all this is the numbers of people seeking help from the directed source--bishops and stake prezies. I have worked with many people who took relatively simple issues to these folks and met with a paucity of wisdom that would make Bart Simpson look like a sage.

When the program reruns fifth grade for an eternity, who can grow?

Ed

Hey there Ed, I've been trying to get a hold of you. Did you get my email and private message? Let me know as soon as you have a chance. Email me at:

jeff.ricks@postmormon.org

[david]

I admit that the overwhelming feeling I have when around my older relatives who are TBM's is that they are "sweet" and well-meaning, but that they aren't truly adults. I feel like I'm missing out on the possibility of true wisdom and mentorship from them. In fact, I feel more "mature" than them in many ways, even though I am FAR from wise at this point myself (mid 30's).

I suppose it comes from the perpetual child-like state the church expects - absolute deference to authority. The GA's will tell us how to live, think, feel, be. It keeps individuals from evolving - they don't work out the difficult moral dilemmas inherent in life - they don't explore, investigate, engage in intellectual growth. Why would they? The church already has all of the answers. The outside world of scholarship and engagement mostly just poses a potential threat. Thus, one avoids confronting reality and growing from that.

What do you think? Does anybody else feel this way? (And I don't just mean the lifelong jello and Kool-aid appreciation.)

A few years ago my mom gave all the kids a collection of life stories and interviews of some of our relatives/ancestors. I recently happened across it and, having never actually read it (shame on me), decided to indulge myself. Now I'm wishing I hadn't.

My TBM grandpa, who I remember as a very kind, wise man, passed away when I was barely out of teenhood. My memories of him are fading, so I turned to his memoir hoping to revive some nice recollections and perhaps gain some wisdom from this man who I didn't know well enough.

Oh well. The piece was nothing but an insipid recounting of his courtship, temple wedding, church callings, the arrival of his children, the passing of relatives. He bears his testimony at the end. Huh? The account is a one-dimensional picture of a man whose only notable experiences apparently were those that could pass through the filter of church teaching and practice.

Not one single mention of an independent thought. No account of his struggles, his thoughts about being a father, his political views, lessons learned, NOTHING!

I was, frankly, embarrassed. Had I read it as an objective outsider, I would think of him as a man subsumed by a cult, with no intellect of his own.

This is not to dis my grandpa, who I admired and loved. But there is something wrong when meaning cannot be found in anything other than one's church experience.

"Thus," as formermormon aptly puts it, "one avoids confronting reality and growing from that." Sad.

[Born Free]

You need never make a mistake! The Holy Ghost can be your constant companion that only worthy LDS can have as a guide.

What happened to adulthood? What happened to growth through wrestling with Life?

I compare the above drivel with chronological adults playing with sugar flavoured water in wine glasses like teenagers.

You need never expose your rear aperture to the wrong pattern again. The HG can guide you, even at the price of dropping to your knees in the paper towel and toilet paper aisle and asking fervently for guidance. If necessary, fast for the day before if you feel distressed at the weighty possibility of making a wrong (evil) choice.

And if you don't get clear, unassailable guidance, ask your family and home teachers to fast and pray with you. If all else fails, make an appointment with the Bishop. Maybe Gordo will receive special guidance to save your precious little freckle!

Daryl

[silverfox]

A post on the BYU visit thread got me thinking - do mormons ever really grow up?

I admit that the overwhelming feeling I have when around my older relatives who are TBM's is that they are "sweet" and well-meaning, but that they aren't truly adults. I feel like I'm missing out on the possibility of true wisdom and mentorship from them. In fact, I feel more "mature" than them in many ways, even though I am FAR from wise at this point myself (mid 30's).

I suppose it comes from the perpetual child-like state the church expects - absolute deference to authority. The GA's will tell us how to live, think, feel, be. It keeps individuals from evolving - they don't work out the difficult moral dilemmas inherent in life - they don't explore, investigate, engage in intellectual growth. Why would they? The church already has all of the answers. The outside world of scholarship and engagement mostly just poses a potential threat. Thus, one avoids confronting reality and growing from that.

What do you think? Does anybody else feel this way? (And I don't just mean the lifelong jello and Kool-aid appreciation.)

I believe it is very common that young TBMs have a difficult time adjusting to "real" life. I don't think they are prepared for what is out there. Not that what is out there is bad.....it's just LIFE. And life includes diversity whether one wants to support it or not.

Hubby is a cop. Two new TBM rookies just quit after months of training because they can't handle the SWEARING. They tried to file complaints and all kinds of $hit because they don't like the way the cops talk to each other. Ridiculous. Like I've said it only takes one LOUD TBM to stir up crap. Their complaints were in vain...no one was doing anything WRONG. Whiners!!!

One is also upset because they don't like the way cops treat the homeless who are drunk making a nuisance of themselves. (they usually poor out their booze and make them move along as opposed to pooring out their booze and also giving them a ticket) Uusally the exchange is comical and pleasant. (drunks are FUNNY! I love to hear the stories hubby tells me)

Flashbacks of Elizabeth Smart's dad came to mind. Yeah, Mr. TBM Rookie Cop Man why don't you take those poor homeless men home with you, feed them, let them do some odd jobs around the house for you? Don't worry about DOING YOUR JOB and ENFORCING THE LAW like you took an oath to do. Go right ahead and be extra special nice to homeless strangers.

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

[formermormon]

A few years ago my mom gave all the kids a collection of life stories and interviews of some of our relatives/ancestors. I recently happened across it and, having never actually read it (shame on me), decided to indulge myself. Now I'm wishing I hadn't.

My TBM grandpa, who I remember as a very kind, wise man, passed away when I was barely out of teenhood. My memories of him are fading, so I turned to his memoir hoping to revive some nice recollections and perhaps gain some wisdom from this man who I didn't know well enough.

Oh well. The piece was nothing but an insipid recounting of his courtship, temple wedding, church callings, the arrival of his children, the passing of relatives. He bears his testimony at the end. Huh? The account is a one-dimensional picture of a man whose only notable experiences apparently were those that could pass through the filter of church teaching and practice.

Not one single mention of an independent thought. No account of his struggles, his thoughts about being a father, his political views, lessons learned, NOTHING!

I was, frankly, embarrassed. Had I read it as an objective outsider, I would think of him as a man subsumed by a cult, with no intellect of his own.

This is not to dis my grandpa, who I admired and loved. But there is something wrong when meaning cannot be found in anything other than one's church experience.

"Thus," as formermormon aptly puts it, "one avoids confronting reality and growing from that." Sad.


Wow. I can imagine it completely. If you read mormon obituaries, that is what they are like too - all about church "callings" etc. If you think about it, you could write all of that same stuff about somebody before they were even born or without even knowing the person if you just knew that they were/ would be a TBM. How's that for lack of individuality?

The piece that bothers me most on a personal level is the lack of mentorship. Who are you supposed to learn from or get advice from if all of your elders (by which I actually mean "those who are older") are essentially children too?

As for silverfox's example of the swearing cops -- yeah, grow up! How fragile must your worldview be if all can be lost if you hear other people use naughty words? It's like John Stuart Mill says about free speech - the weakest opinions are those that are never challenged.

[noodle]

A post on the BYU visit thread got me thinking - do mormons ever really grow up?

I admit that the overwhelming feeling I have when around my older relatives who are TBM's is that they are "sweet" and well-meaning, but that they aren't truly adults. I feel like I'm missing out on the possibility of true wisdom and mentorship from them. In fact, I feel more "mature" than them in many ways, even though I am FAR from wise at this point myself (mid 30's).

I suppose it comes from the perpetual child-like state the church expects - absolute deference to authority. The GA's will tell us how to live, think, feel, be. It keeps individuals from evolving - they don't work out the difficult moral dilemmas inherent in life - they don't explore, investigate, engage in intellectual growth. Why would they? The church already has all of the answers. The outside world of scholarship and engagement mostly just poses a potential threat. Thus, one avoids confronting reality and growing from that.

What do you think? Does anybody else feel this way? (And I don't just mean the lifelong jello and Kool-aid appreciation.)

As I read this, I couldn't help but remember the old Saturday Night Live show where Sally Field plays an overly prayerful housewife who receives a visit from Jesus, who wants her to tone down her praying. Does anybody remember that one?
Here's a link if you need a laugh...

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/93/93ijesus.phtml

mamajama

[free thinker]

I used to write in my journals like that. As if anyone who read it would know,above all else, that I had a testimony!!

I dont keep a journal now but if I did I would start I off like this:

*^ck me!! Man did I have a weird day today! Life can be real #*it sometimes!! Know what I mean? Never the less I will drag my happy #ss out of bed tommorrow and do it again!! :D

Free Thinker

[silverfox]

I used to write in my journals like that. As if anyone who read it would know,above all else, that I had a testimony!!

I dont keep a journal now but if I did I would start I off like this:

*^ck me!! Man did I have a weird day today! Life can be real #*it sometimes!! Know what I mean? Never the less I will drag my happy #ss out of bed tommorrow and do it again!! :D

Free Thinker

Interesting you should mention your journal. Even my journals were full of $hit...saying all the "right" things...recording things in a "spiritual" nature. NEVER writing the truth EVER. No one would have known the inner turmoil throughout my years as a member. I burned those journals. They weren't ME. I didn't feel I could write what I REALLY felt - I pretended to never be depressed, confused, etc.

I don't keep a journal now either. I have a blog but I don't get too personal in that much.

I often have wondered when reading the journals of pioneers just how much is true, sugarcoated or just plain trying to fit the mold.

You just never know. If there is anything I have learned while my years as a Mormon....you just never EVER know what is truly inside a member.

Very sad.

[Born Free]

Interesting you should mention your journal. Even my journals were full of $hit...saying all the "right" things...recording things in a "spiritual" nature. NEVER writing the truth EVER. No one would have known the inner turmoil throughout my years as a member. I burned those journals. They weren't ME. I didn't feel I could write what I REALLY felt - I pretended to never be depressed, confused, etc.

I don't keep a journal now either. I have a blog but I don't get too personal in that much.

I often have wondered when reading the journals of pioneers just how much is true, sugarcoated or just plain trying to fit the mold.

You just never know. If there is anything I have learned while my years as a Mormon....you just never EVER know what is truly inside a member.

Very sad.

I have a friend who did his PhD on shame.

The above discussion re journals makes fertile source material. As I read all your accounts of laundering your journals to portray the sort of person you believed Moism expected of you, I was reminded of Eds stunning paper on the way fundamental religions impact a persons shame and thereby their (in)capacity for intimacy.

If that paper was all Ed ever wrote, he would have justified his existence on the planet.

I see quite a few "good TBM" family meltdowns, and it is so apparent that in spite of all the promised benefits of God's Plan, many Mo members feel invisible in their relationships precisely because they have disappeared behind the very "nice" masks you mention, and we all have experienced.

By my definitions, that behaviour is anti "spiritual", deeply toxic to the soul, and unquestionably arrested development.

Real maturity involves becoming more open as we mature, moving more and more into our external face matching our inner world.

Daryl

[free thinker]

You just never know. If there is anything I have learned while my years as a Mormon....you just never EVER know what is truly inside a member.


This is so very true! I have had a number of experiences with members where I found out they were not even close to LIVING THE GOSPEL!! Makes you wonder how many active members live lives of total obfuscation!!

I burned my journal also Silverfox! It was a good moment!!

By my definitions, that behaviour is anti "spiritual", deeply toxic to the soul, and unquestionably arrested development.

Daryl

This was me! I did not grow my last five years as a member! I was actually becoming more diminished as a person. I just could not put words to what was happening. I realized it when I read Big Eddy's ,and others papers. It was like the world was opening up brand new. My life is so much more whole and complete now. And I am much more genuine as a person. So much more genuine!! Man I hope this keeps getting better!!


Free Thinker

[silverfox]

I have a friend who did his PhD on shame.

The above discussion re journals makes fertile source material. As I read all your accounts of laundering your journals to portray the sort of person you believed Moism expected of you, I was reminded of Eds stunning paper on the way fundamental religions impact a persons shame and thereby their (in)capacity for intimacy.

If that paper was all Ed ever wrote, he would have justified his existence on the planet.

I see quite a few "good TBM" family meltdowns, and it is so apparent that in spite of all the promised benefits of God's Plan, many Mo members feel invisible in their relationships precisely because they have disappeared behind the very "nice" masks you mention, and we all have experienced.

By my definitions, that behaviour is anti "spiritual", deeply toxic to the soul, and unquestionably arrested development.

Real maturity involves becoming more open as we mature, moving more and more into our external face matching our inner world.

Daryl

Extremely interesting, Daryl. It rings so true.

I almost believe now that I am TOOOOO open. (making up for lost years?) It makes people nervous. sigh But hey, it's just LIFE, right?

[Born Free]

Extremely interesting, Daryl. It rings so true.

I almost believe now that I am TOOOOO open. (making up for lost years?) It makes people nervous. sigh But hey, it's just LIFE, right?
Silverfox,

Now that (TOOOO open) remark interests me greatly.

I suspect that I may be the same, and have for some time. The best meaning I can give that is that it is an over-reaction to the "nice" dishonesty I witnessed in the FoO and Moism.

Ii is like I now have this compulsion to "call a spade a bloody shovel". I am really sus of "nice" and practically have to test it, even if it risks being perceived as insensitive, at times.

That resonate with any one else? And if so, what sense have you made of it?

Daryl