Post-mo = liberal, TBM = conservative?

[formermormon]

OK, so this ties in with other non-mormon related stuff I've been thinking about, but it occurs to me that the same tendencies that lead people to leave mormonism are also those associated with liberalism - open-mindedness, tolerance, acceptance of differing viewpoints, love of equality, desire for human happiness and fulfillment over rule-boundedness, concern for fairness, intellectualism, compassion for all, etc.

AND, conservatism is associated with dogmatism, strict rule following, hierarchy (including between the races and sexes), intolerance of difference (especially in sexuality), a reverence for tradition, a black and white mentality, etc.

It also seems to be probable that people are possibly inherently (genetically maybe even?) oriented towards one mindset or the other. I know that in some mormon circles, they call them "iron-rodders" vs. "liahonas".

If so, could it be the case that those with inherently "liberal" personalities are destined to leave "the church" (and possibly other authoritarian churches as well), and those who are inherently more conservative will stay and remain TBM?

Discuss. :)

[free thinker]

Check my post, POST MORMON AND POLITICALLY CONSERVATIVE, here in the community. I think I may be an anomaly in this regard, as my politics are conservative. As the post notes though, most of my conservatism relates to issues economic, rather than social etc.


I would agree with your assessment otherwise though. Frankly, I find many of the folks here ,who have expressed that their politics is liberal, quite refreshing in their world view, and outlook!!

Free Thinker

[Born Free]

OK, so this ties in with other non-mormon related stuff I've been thinking about, but it occurs to me that the same tendencies that lead people to leave mormonism are also those associated with liberalism - open-mindedness, tolerance, acceptance of differing viewpoints, love of equality, desire for human happiness and fulfillment over rule-boundedness, concern for fairness, intellectualism, compassion for all, etc.

AND, conservatism is associated with dogmatism, strict rule following, hierarchy (including between the races and sexes), intolerance of difference (especially in sexuality), a reverence for tradition, a black and white mentality, etc.

It also seems to be probable that people are possibly inherently (genetically maybe even?) oriented towards one mindset or the other. I know that in some mormon circles, they call them "iron-rodders" vs. "liahonas".

If so, could it be the case that those with inherently "liberal" personalities are destined to leave "the church" (and possibly other authoritarian churches as well), and those who are inherently more conservative will stay and remain TBM?

Discuss. :)
formermormon,

From my reading (The Blank Slate), genetics can explain about 50% of our behaviour, with socialization and free-choice making up the balance.

In the Values/World View models I use, the Family/Belonging and Corporate World Views (the most compatible with Moism by my take) tend to be more conservative, relying upon Tradition to provide a lot of the guide as to how to behave, solve problems etc.

Somewhere between that and the Service/New Order World Views (which is where I see a lot of PostMos), people internalize their Locus of Control - put another way, they move "God" from out there to inside themself. At that point they trust their own judgement-calls better and if uncertain, have greater confidence in communicating and creative-problem solving with others.

That is certainly a more progressive, humanitarian outlook, where Law-Rule is replaced by or supplemented by Law-Guide as a value.

The Catholic Priest Richard Rohr raised an interested point in one of his addresses he did in Sydney a few years back, which really struck me.

He pointed out in times of change, at the bifurcation point - if you like:

Conservatives want to rush back into that old ways;

Liberals want to rush into some new way; but,

It takes a real maturity to sit with the liminal space in transition until the wise way forward becomes or is made more apparent through research, patience, communication, and intelligent discussion about needs.

So for me, I find now that I don't fit any box easily. I am not enthralled by the past, but like to appreciate what there is of value and respect that a certain level of stability can be helpful. I do not uncritically assume that change will automatically be for the better, but do like to create new ways to resolve issues, so like to test and imagine it in some detail to be sure it is not as full of pitfalls as the past.

Daryl

[david]

I'm surprised more people haven't responded to this thread, being that politics touches all of us deeply, even if some of us don't realize it. I would guess that 75% of what I read and listen to is of a political nature. And you can bet that I have strong opinions about what I encounter! I also spend a significant amount of time involved in local civic and political causes.

The lack of room within the church for liberal ideas & politics is one of my main gripes about it. No, it is more than a gripe, it is an utterly intolerable situation IMO. Like, why would I even want to set foot inside the door of such a place? It has absolutely nothing to offer the thoughtful, searching mind, one tolerant of diversity and that believes the public good warrants as much attention as the private.

Thus, while a conservative can operate comfortably both inside and outside the church, the liberal has within the church two options only: suppress one's political sensibilities and basically drop out of political life, or find a way out of the morg. I think this accounts for the majority of postmo's liberal bent. While the conservative might find plenty of reasons to leave, for the any-more-than-halfhearted liberal it is practically imperative (and, I might add, easier).

[nursekristen]

I, like Free Thinker, have grown so much and become more open-minded and tolerant since leaving the church, however my political views remain the same conservative ones, just maybe not as far off to the right as they used to be! But like F.T. my political beliefs are mostly for economic reasons. I have found tho that the majority of ex-mormons, once leaving the church, have taken a complete left-turn. I think it's sad that these intolerant, ignorant fundy christians are taking over the face of the GOP- it's definitely not making us look good at all. :Crazy:

[formermormon]

OK, I'm tempted to ask about exactly which economic policies FT and NurseK find appealing, but I fear it could start some ugliness that is just not in keeping with the supportive and friendly tone of this forum. SO-

One really bizarre irony of the whole mormon thing is that it is pretty much opposed to the ideals of the original mormons. I mean, those people did some pretty radical, counter-traditional things, didn't they? They rejected whatever religious tradition they came from, ended up setting out across the prairie and starting anew - instituting the United Order - which is pure socialism! They were into "alternative lifestyles" when it came to marriage, they gave women the right to vote before any other state aside from Wyoming. Don't you think that those people would be incredibly disappointed at what the church has turned into?

(I don't want to argue that they were pure liberals in the current American sense, of course. They were awfully keen to follow a rather dictatorial leader, still didn't give women or blacks full equality, etc., but for the time? Not exactly staid and traditional folks.)

[silverfox]

OK, I'm tempted to ask about exactly which economic policies FT and NurseK find appealing, but I fear it could start some ugliness that is just not in keeping with the supportive and friendly tone of this forum. SO-

One really bizarre irony of the whole mormon thing is that it is pretty much opposed to the ideals of the original mormons. I mean, those people did some pretty radical, counter-traditional things, didn't they? They rejected whatever religious tradition they came from, ended up setting out across the prairie and starting anew - instituting the United Order - which is pure socialism! They were into "alternative lifestyles" when it came to marriage, they gave women the right to vote before any other state aside from Wyoming. Don't you think that those people would be incredibly disappointed at what the church has turned into?

(I don't want to argue that they were pure liberals in the current American sense, of course. They were awfully keen to follow a rather dictatorial leader, still didn't give women or blacks full equality, etc., but for the time? Not exactly staid and traditional folks.)

Valid points.

I have always been somewhat liberal but "forced" myself to vote conservative because that's what the church leaned toward. And I wanted to be a good little member.

I remember well having discussions in Sunday School, with other members, etc about political preference and being cautioned that members should vote Republican.

These days I vote how I truly feel. It's a good feeling. I am not afraid to state I am liberal. Even here in good ol' Republican Utard.

It drives my FIL nuts that I am liberal. He always would forward me Pro Bush stuff. I got so sick of it (he assumed we were Republican) that I started sending him pro stuff on all the other candidates. heh heh That put a stop to it.

[elder_nomo]

One really bizarre irony of the whole mormon thing is that it is pretty much opposed to the ideals of the original mormons. I mean, those people did some pretty radical, counter-traditional things, didn't they? They rejected whatever religious tradition they came from, ended up setting out across the prairie and starting anew - instituting the United Order - which is pure socialism! They were into "alternative lifestyles" when it came to marriage, they gave women the right to vote before any other state aside from Wyoming. Don't you think that those people would be incredibly disappointed at what the church has turned into?i love this analysis, formermormon. the original mo's would have been much more at home in a hippie commune than a republican suburb.
they must be rolling over in their graves these days.

[free thinker]

OK, I'm tempted to ask about exactly which economic policies FT and NurseK find appealing, but I fear it could start some ugliness that is just not in keeping with the supportive and friendly tone of this forum. SO-

No ugliness will erupt on my part, but I will not make you ask. I anticipate that you have plenty of ammunition to counterbalance most statements I might make concerning my economic reasons for being conservative in my politics. But, never the less, I will sally forth.

In a nutshell.

1 Lower marginal tax rates, wich usually are follwed by economic upturn.

2 The reduction of onerous regulation, wich generally curtails economic freedom, and entrepeneuralism.

3 The reduction of ineffective, so called, social programs, wich are inneffective, expensive, and counterproductive!

I am fully aware that both major politcal parties in America are responsible for perpetuating some of the
above, but I think it is general consensus that the republicans are, at least in their election platforms, generally opposed to them!!

IMHO/ Free Thinker