What Are the Traps?

[peter_mary]

Considering the fact that part of the mission of this website is to provide support to people who are in the process of leaving as well as those who have been gone for a while, I thought it might be interesting to ask people who have been out for a while what some of the pitfalls are, the traps if you will, of coming out of Mormonism? What were the hard lessons learned that you would do differently if you could go back? Or what did you do that you are glad you did, or that seemed like an effective strategy? I know that there are as many ways out of the Church as there are Post-Mo's, but assuming there is power in learning from the mistakes and successes of others...what have you learned?

Paul

[Unregistered]

Considering the fact that part of the mission of this website is to provide support to people who are in the process of leaving as well as those who have been gone for a while, I thought it might be interesting to ask people who have been out for a while what some of the pitfalls are, the traps if you will, of coming out of Mormonism? What were the hard lessons learned that you would do differently if you could go back? Or what did you do that you are glad you did, or that seemed like an effective strategy? I know that there are as many ways out of the Church as there are Post-Mo's, but assuming there is power in learning from the mistakes and successes of others...what have you learned?

Paul

This is a very good question, Paul. I have to spend some time thinking about this in depth. I know that once I KNEW the church was based on lies I was full throttle toward getting out but not without it's challenges and obstacles especially where TBM family members are involved as well as a very confused spouse. I believe that for ME if I would have lingered in my disbelief and not been proactive ASAP I would have become "stuck". More later as time permits.

[wescape]

My journey out of Mormonism included extreme rebellion as a teenager. I eventually had my name removed at age 20 but never really discussed my feelings about the church with my dad. Then at age 21 I ended up going off on him one night which was not something I had planned. All of my anger and frustration came out like water from a firehose and it was intense. I think there were both enefits and drawbacks to what happened. The benefit was that I wasn't afraid to say how I felt and confront something passionately that needed to be addressed. The downside was that in some ways I think it added bricks to the wall that was already there between me and my dad. Looking back, I think I would have took a more calm approach which would have made my dad less defensive and perhaps more able to look at Mormonism objectively. Obviously I'll never know but that's my theory.

Wes

[peter_mary]

Then at age 21 I ended up going off on him one night which was not something I had planned. All of my anger and frustration came out like water from a firehose and it was intense. I think there were both enefits and drawbacks to what happened. The benefit was that I wasn't afraid to say how I felt and confront something passionately that needed to be addressed. The downside was that in some ways I think it added bricks to the wall that was already there between me and my dad.

This strikes at the core of the strategy at our house. Do you "Crash and Rebuild" getting it over quickly, or do you "Slowly Evolve?" I've had the benefit of watching it both ways, and they both have advantages and pitfalls.

Our best friends crashed and rebuilt. This is the analogy I use. Both couples, when faced with the need for an exit strategy, were like two ships entering a treacherous straight, littered with giant rocks, shallow reefs, hidden sand bars, rough currents and poor visibility. Our friends crashed through the straight as hard and fast as they could, and reached the other side in a matter of weeks. But they were battered and bloodied from their family, neighbors and ward members, and he, who is an attorney, watched his practice just dry up. But they were free! The got through the hard part, and now on the other side, they have rebuilt their boat, installed an esspresso machine :D and are exploring the post Mormon lifestyle with the complete awareness of their family and friends. He has changed jobs, and life is good. But it was hard.

We, on the other hand, decided to pick our way slowly, inching along and avoiding every hazard. Slowy, we evolve in the direction we want to go, and people are only now beginning to notice, and some have not noticed at all. Of course, our Ward realizes we aren't there, but they don't know why, and because every once in a blue moon we still put in an appearance when a Missionary returns who was a kid we knew, they just mostly scratch their heads and wonder what's up with us. So we haven't been badly injured, but on the other hand, we still aren't through the treacherous strait. We don't feel good about having a coffee maker out on the counter top, or even brewing it at home, because what if the family comes over and finds it? We still feel like we have to make excuses for not being at the temple when a neice gets married or a nephew is getting ready to leave for a mission.

Clearly it's a trade off, and I would choose again to move as we've moved, but we're six years into it, and I STILL feel like I have to buy my mocha's at the Java Hut on my way to work instead of make my own! :rolleyes:

Paul

[lisa]

I have actually thought about this a lot lately. I decided about three months ago to tell my family how I really felt about the LDS church, and that I had left the church. (I have been going through the process of leaving for years.) Initially they were all very confussed and hurt. It has been one of the most difficult things I have ever endured. My family has been abusive towards me, telling others that I now worship satan. :mad: I do belong to a church, just not theirs, and not one full of satanic rituals either. I have learned that the love for me is verry conditional. My sisters, have tried to stage a war between me, and my kids. But what did I learn? I have learned that I cannot sacrifice myself for a church, or for my family for that matter. Yes, I am trying to get my kids to see that LDS beliefs are wrong. If I had it all to do all over again; even knowing how difficult it would be, and knowing that I could loose my relationship with some of my family memebers. I would still do it all again. Because my sense of self is strong, and I can endure. I can't sacrifice what I know is right just for them.
I am still in the thick of it; but as I learn more about all the lies and deception. I know I have made the right choice. And the Journey I am on is full of ups and downs; yet it is the right road. I have nothing to hide; therfore openness is the only way! ;)

[free thinker]

I am taking this process a step at a time , and moving slowly as far as explaining it to family and friends. I have adopted the attitude of being open to anyone who wants to know why I left. I have been reading, and am ready to offer titles of these books with little explanations as to what they bring to light. I do not know if I will have any takers, but I will, with equanimity explain the reasons for my dissafection. I do not wish to have any conflict, but will , if challenged , mount a vigorous defense. :cool:

Recently some friends, who know I have left activity came by my house. He is an old friend, and a current member of the bishopric in my ward. When he and his wife saw my coffee maker they just kinda looked bug-eyed. You would have thought they saw a "golden calf "on the counter!!! My girlfriend and I had a good laugh about that. :D She thinks it is completely absurd !!

I dont think there is any set way to leave. But it does take courage I think. Ostracism is never fun or easy to take. The only advice I can offer is to be honest. We have nothing to hide.

I wish you the very best!!!

Paul

[silverfox]

Thinking more about this I think one trap I got caught up in was trying to get TBMs to understand why I no longer believed. Most TBMs don't want to hear it, they don't want to know about research, history, etc, etc, etc. Even when you do prove somthing wrong, they don't want to believe it anyway. They won't research for themselves or check our your resources to confirm that what you are telling them is true.

I wasted a lot of time and built a lot of unnecessary (but not necessarily regretful) walls in trying to get TBMs to understand me. If I could do it over again, I wouldn't bother. I like the advice to just ease into your apostacy. No big announcements, no big debates, just live your life and slowly but surely others will get the message. But I think one should always be prepared to respond when questioned about it. Not necessarily in detail but be prepared because sooner or later someone will ask you about it.

[peter_mary]

Most TBMs don't want to hear it, they don't want to know about research, history, etc, etc, etc. Even when you do prove somthing wrong, they don't want to believe it anyway. They won't research for themselves or check out your resources to confirm that what you are telling them is true.

I wasted a lot of time and built a lot of unnecessary (but not necessarily regretful) walls in trying to get TBMs to understand me.

I fell into this trap, too. Headfirst. Ouch... In fact, I went to Priesthood for several years, trying to participate with them but from my new-found world-view, but all to no avail. :(

I found this quote just today in the latest book by Gary James Bergera entitled "Conflict in the Quorum." It is a quote by Orson Pratt, and sums up nicely the long-held tradition that you don't get to think for yourself, and you don't listen to what others have to say...you limit yourself to what the Church has said through it's divinely appointed leaders.

"'But,' inquires one, 'suppose a Prophet of God should lay down a principle in philosophy which to all human appearance appears to be perfectly incorrect, what would you do then?' I would say I am weak--that my judgement is not to be set up against the judgement of the man placed at my head. If I cannot fully understand his views, it is my duty at least to be silent in regard to my own." O. Pratt

I think that sums up nicely the brick wall we bash our heads against when we try to reason with Church members. They default to a faith-based position of, "Well, I might not be able to understand it, but God works in mysterious ways, and I'm sure I'll understand it in the hereafter." That's pretty much a show-stopper in the old reason department, and all you do when you argue with them is make yourself look small and pathetic in their eyes. I learned that one the hard way... :o

Paul

[bigeddy]

I suppose the biggest trap I encountered (like several others who have answered this question) was assuming that most Mormons really cared about truth. In my experience most do not. When teaching seminary full-tiime for the church I used to tell students that I am LDS because it holds together in a pattern and in a way that helps me understand the world. It holds some truth. I would tell them that if the time came that I did not find it answering my need for patterns that relate to reality, I would leave it. That is what happened. I made the mistake of believing that others cared much about truth. Most just want to feel safe. The truth matters not at all. And since we endanger their safety, we are bad and must be shunned.

Ed

[silverfox]

I suppose the biggest trap I encountered (like several others who have answered this question) was assuming that most Mormons really cared about truth. In my experience most do not. When teaching seminary full-tiime for the church I used to tell students that I am LDS because it holds together in a pattern and in a way that helps me understand the world. It holds some truth. I would tell them that if the time came that I did not find it answering my need for patterns that relate to reality, I would leave it. That is what happened. I made the mistake of believing that others cared much about truth. Most just want to feel safe. The truth matters not at all. And since we endanger their safety, we are bad and must be shunned.

Ed

I have been told by a few TBMs that I use my apostacy to "justify my lifestyle". What lifestyle? I throw that back at them. Who is justifying which lifestyle? Members tend to hide behind the church. They don't know what "truth" really is and they don't want to know. I think it's too scary for some. You have to take responsibility for your own dreams and goals, not ones defined by "leaders". All I can say is I am much happier as a Post Mo than I EVER was as a MO. And it has nothing to do with alcohol, drugs, wild sex, etc as many members believe that is all life has to offer outside of the church. (this still makes me laugh that I once believed that, too)

[bigeddy]

This is another one of those "subparadigms" Jeff was talking about. I think these self-serving, fear-driven subparas (a new word for you Jeff) will continue to go on as long as there is no vertical growth. It seems to me that when people are not afraid of vertical growth there is no need for all the defensive bull.

Ed

[peter_mary]

It seems to me that when people are not afraid of vertical growth there is no need for all the defensive bull.
Ed

When people are not afraid of growth (a euphamism for thinking), then they are likely to leave the Church. Hence it's the power of the "Bull" that keeps them quivering in the corner, afraid to step out in the ring to find that it's only a paper bull. Every Post-Mo I know was afraid first, but something caused them to be more uncomfortable staying in...so they faced the "Bull," the lesser of two evils, only to find that the "Bull" had no power after all. I've read several posts where people said, "Surprise! I came out and not only did I not fry, I'm happier than I've ever been!" :D There's only one way to discover that...leave the corner, and with shaking knees and trembling spirit face the "paper bull."

How's that for metaphore making? For anyone familiar with the ancient mystery cult of Mithras, the powerless "Bull" metaphore is especially interesting. In that particular cult, the initiate (read: candidate for baptism) participated in a rite called the "taurobolium," in which he or she stood in a pit beneath a grate. A bull was sacrificed above them, and they literally were washed pure in the blood of the bull. :eek: Sound familiar? It should...

I know, I know...I'm going to hell...

Paul

[silverfox]

I know, I know...I'm going to hell...

Paul

You LUCKY DOG!

[Jeff_Ricks]

When people are not afraid of growth (a euphamism for thinking), then they are likely to leave the Church. Hence it's the power of the "Bull" that keeps them quivering in the corner, afraid to step out in the ring to find that it's only a paper bull. Every Post-Mo I know was afraid first, but something caused them to be more uncomfortable staying in...so they faced the "Bull," the lesser of two evils, only to find that the "Bull" had no power after all. I've read several posts where people said, "Surprise! I came out and not only did I not fry, I'm happier than I've ever been!" :D There's only one way to discover that...leave the corner, and with shaking knees and trembling spirit face the "paper bull."

How's that for metaphore making? For anyone familiar with the ancient mystery cult of Mithras, the powerless "Bull" metaphore is especially interesting. In that particular cult, the initiate (read: candidate for baptism) participated in a rite called the "taurobolium," in which he or she stood in a pit beneath a grate. A bull was sacrificed above them, and they literally were washed pure in the blood of the bull. :eek: Sound familiar? It should...

I know, I know...I'm going to hell...

Paul


"The power of the Bull." I love it Paul! Once a Mormon can face the Bull and see that it's a load of bull, it becomes a bull made of paper indeed. When I realized that the truth did make me free!

In reading about the cult of Mithras, which existed long before Jesus would have been born, I learned that according to the gospel of Mithraism, Mithras was said to have been born on December 25th in a cave and his birth was witnessed by shepherds.

Hmmmm... must be just a coincidence. ;-)

[silverfox]

"The power of the Bull." I love it Paul! Once a Mormon can face the Bull and see that it's a load of bull, it becomes a bull made of paper indeed. When I realized that the truth did make me free!

In reading about the cult of Mithras, which existed long before Jesus would have been born, I learned that according to the gospel of Mithraism, Mithras was said to have been born on December 25th in a cave and his birth was witnessed by shepherds.

Hmmmm... must be just a coincidence. ;-)

Hey if we ever get together and have a party or picnic or something we need a bull shaped paper mache pinata. We can beat the crap out of it. :) And the treats will be tasty.

[Jeff_Ricks]

Hey if we ever get together and have a party or picnic or something we need a bull shaped paper mache pinata. We can beat the crap out of it. :) And the treats will be tasty.


Hahahahahaha! I like it! :D Yes, lets do it!

[peter_mary]

In reading about the cult of Mithras, which existed long before Jesus would have been born, I learned that according to the gospel of Mithraism, Mithras was said to have been born on December 25th in a cave and his birth was witnessed by shepherds.

Hmmmm... must be just a coincidence. ;-)

Yup, in those days, before we learned how to adjust our calendar with Leap Day every once in a while, the winter equinox fell on December 25...a perfect date for a 'rebirth' of the year, and of the god. I always wondered why Christmas fell so close to the equinox, but missed it by a few days. After studying the mystery cults, it all makes sense.

Fortunately, we know that Jesus was really born on April 6, which as I recall conincides with Joseph Smiths birthday, right? (Jeff, can we add a "barfing" smilie? Sometimes I just NEED one...like right now!)

Another remarkable coincidence is the frequency with which the "mystery cult" gods were killed, and then overcame death by resurection.

Satan is crafty, isn't he? ;) He knew hundreds of years what Jesus was going to do, and so he beat Him to the punch by having his imposters do it first! :)

Paul

[pokatator]

Considering the fact that part of the mission of this website is to provide support to people who are in the process of leaving as well as those who have been gone for a while, I thought it might be interesting to ask people who have been out for a while what some of the pitfalls are, the traps if you will, of coming out of Mormonism? What were the hard lessons learned that you would do differently if you could go back? Or what did you do that you are glad you did, or that seemed like an effective strategy? I know that there are as many ways out of the Church as there are Post-Mo's, but assuming there is power in learning from the mistakes and successes of others...what have you learned?

Paul

Hi Paul, I would like to put my two cents in on this thread in hopes that my method might help some one else choose a different approach than I did. I left the church after going thru the temple. I found the temple ceremony to be deplorable and in my opinion Satanic. I might explain that in another post some other time. Anyway I left the temple angry, very angry and I felt deceived. I went to save a marriage, trying to do tat "we" were told would bring happiness and just the next step of progression we had been taught all our lives. I sent to a Christain book store in my town and bought a copy of every non-mormon authored book on the mormon church I could buy. I read and studied with total obsession every spare moment I had. I found the books to be different than I was told they would be like. I was told they would be Satanic, but I found nothing but Mormon writings, and scripture mixed with Bible explanations. I studied for over 3 months and even went back to the temple 12 times to confirm what happens there and to take mental notes. I never went to church for about 3 months. Then I did and this is where I wish that I had maybe did it different.

I returned to church on a Fast and Testimony sunday, I waited until I knew that I would be the last speaker. I got up and verbally excommunicated myself by denouncing my membership in the church, refusing to sustain Joseph Smith or the current false prophet or the other profit of the church. When I started speaking to the abominations that are going on in the temple they escorted me out of the building. I was given an excommunication hearing 2 weeks later that they assumed I would not bother to attend, but I did. And in my own very young true Christain walk they heard the real Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I am a lot calmer about wistnessing and dealing and loving Mormons today. But I left in a very militant and angry way. This was tough on my family, I had 4 generations of my family in attendance the day I bore my "testimony". It has been positive is some ways and negative in others. I really don't recomend my method to anyone unless you are a very strong willed person and you are compelled to do it. It cost me a marriage, a poor one at that, 3 kids but they are coming around and I am witnessing and they are listening.

I could not just fade away and blend into the woodwork I had to make a statement. That's just me.

Randy

[peter_mary]

I left the temple angry, very angry and I felt deceived. I went to save a marriage, trying to do what "we" were told would bring happiness and just the next step of progression we had been taught all our lives.

I got up and verbally excommunicated myself by denouncing my membership in the church, refusing to sustain Joseph Smith or the current false prophet or the other profit of the church.

I left in a very militant and angry way. This was tough on my family, I had 4 generations of my family in attendance the day I bore my "testimony". It has been positive is some ways and negative in others. I really don't recomend my method to anyone unless you are a very strong willed person and you are compelled to do it. It cost me a marriage, a poor one at that, 3 kids but they are coming around and I am witnessing and they are listening.

Randy

Wow...I've never heard of THAT one before. I'm guessing you were the talk of the ward for MONTHS! Probably still are.

As I read it though, the thought that kept going through my beanie-little-brain was simply this. If we do what we do out of anger, we run the risk of violating our own, personal standards. Like the proverbial "counting to ten," we would ALL be well advised to take a long time before we make life-altering decisions.

I've known people who, acting in anger and hostility, found themselves confronting an alcohol addiction. Not because alcohol is inherantly good or bad, but because the CHOICE to drink was coupled with the DESIRE to act out in anger, and the result was trouble. If I could offer one word of advice to prosepective "former-Mormons," it is simply this: Don't act out, act in. Don't react to everything out there...act from what is really and truly within. And that might take several months or even years to discover.

I don't know, maybe that's my own insecurities talking.

Thanks a million for sharing your story, Randy. There's so much there for us to learn from!

Paul

[pokatator]

Wow...I've never heard of THAT one before. I'm guessing you were the talk of the ward for MONTHS! Probably still are.

As I read it though, the thought that kept going through my beanie-little-brain was simply this. If we do what we do out of anger, we run the risk of violating our own, personal standards. Like the proverbial "counting to ten," we would ALL be well advised to take a long time before we make life-altering decisions.

I've known people who, acting in anger and hostility, found themselves confronting an alcohol addiction. Not because alcohol is inherantly good or bad, but because the CHOICE to drink was coupled with the DESIRE to act out in anger, and the result was trouble. If I could offer one word of advice to prosepective "former-Mormons," it is simply this: Don't act out, act in. Don't react to everything out there...act from what is really and truly within. And that might take several months or even years to discover.

I don't know, maybe that's my own insecurities talking.

Thanks a million for sharing your story, Randy. There's so much there for us to learn from!

PaulHi Paul, your advice is very good, my anger was righteous anger not an uncontrolled anger. It was not hateful anger and I did not show anger to the people, but it was powerful to them. My anger was inside me and aimed at the church not the people, if I had not taken 3 months to research and get my convictions together the anger would have been a very bad thing indeed. Yes I was and probably am still talked about. I have lived in the same area and still do for the last 45 years, since I was 7 years old. Its been 16 years since I did that. I still meet old members all the time, some respect me for being strong willed and maybe honest but misguided in their minds. But most fear me somehow, I am sure I am the devil to some of them. I am sure that someone displaying honesty and freedom scares them. I know a few are envious, I've had a couple of members tell me they have doubts about the church but can't imagine paying the price I paid. I can't imagine hanging in there with the doubts I had and they have. I am so much more happy out from under the bondage. My happiness baffles them, too.

Thanx, Randy and thanx for this forum it is a blessing.

[silverfox]

I returned to church on a Fast and Testimony sunday, I waited until I knew that I would be the last speaker. I got up and verbally excommunicated myself by denouncing my membership in the church, refusing to sustain Joseph Smith or the current false prophet or the other profit of the church. When I started speaking to the abominations that are going on in the temple they escorted me out of the building. I was given an excommunication hearing 2 weeks later that they assumed I would not bother to attend, but I did. And in my own very young true Christain walk they heard the real Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Randy

I would have given anything to have witnessed this! I would have stood and applauded and been escorted right out with you.

[Unregistered]

But silver fox, please dont fill it with salt water taffy!!

And we probably shouldnt be blindefolded. We have already been through that!!

Free Thinker

[silverfox]

But silver fox, please dont fill it with salt water taffy!!

And we probably shouldnt be blindefolded. We have already been through that!!

Free Thinker

Very good and valid points, FT. No taffy and no blindfolds if we do the pinata thing one day. Hey we could have a few pinatas, a bull, one of Joe's head, how about a BoM one? I am going to have too much fun with you guys, I can just feel it.

[nancyp]

By the time I walked out the door I had lost my voice. I felt very marginalized. Marginalized people don't trust people, inclduing themselves. I think it takes a good while to get over that. I had spent so many years guarding my thoughts and words, reframing them so they would be acceptable, keeping everything inside. And I talked to no one about this. I looked like a semi-normal mormon mom (even thought I had a career). I was teaching gospel doctrine. I had drawn a circle - I would not teach anything I didn't believe nor would I teach anything against church doctrine. This was too difficult in teaching OT and NT, and I took a mytholoogical approach to the
BOM. I did this for my last six or seven years. But I was slowly dying inside.

I declined a calling to be the Teacher Development teacher (I was told I would have to use the manual). So two weeks later, the last Sunday of the year, I served my mormon punch and nut breads to my gospel doctrine class. And walked out the back door - and didn't return.

Maybe I should have shouted and argued, but that was not me. This saved my husband some dignity (although that is another story).

Also living well is the best revenge.

Nasncy


Considering the fact that part of the mission of this website is to provide support to people who are in the process of leaving as well as those who have been gone for a while, I thought it might be interesting to ask people who have been out for a while what some of the pitfalls are, the traps if you will, of coming out of Mormonism? What were the hard lessons learned that you would do differently if you could go back? Or what did you do that you are glad you did, or that seemed like an effective strategy? I know that there are as many ways out of the Church as there are Post-Mo's, but assuming there is power in learning from the mistakes and successes of others...what have you learned?

Paul

[kevinbywater]

I experienced my exodus from the LDS Church in 1987/88. Since that time I've come to faith in Christ, moved from Brigham City/Logan (B.S. Philosophy; USU) to Colorado Springs, initiated a profession (research, writing, lecturing), gotten married (11 years now), enjoyed the birth of three daughters (currently 5.5, 4 and 1), and recently moved to Durham, England, to pursue a PhD in New Testament Studies, etc.

When I exited the church I was twenty years-old. I wasn't married. I had decided not to go on a mission at eighteen, not due to any doubts about the church mind you, though with complete understanding from my bishop and full approval of my parents. So, in some ways, since I was not married, I've not had to face the innumerable problems others face. Without going on a mission, I didn't have the additional baggage some seem to have. I believed the church and its teachings, though I did moderately enjoy coffee now and then, or a cigarette or some beer. I always though that I would swear off such things in due time.

Nevertheless, my post-exodus is not without its problems, some of which were caused by me. The early years were terribly difficult: loss of virtually all friends; opposition by family; my reputation dashed to pieces by unscrupulous "faithful"; and regular fears that somehow I just might have made a mistake in resigning my membership. There is more, too.

For example, I exited the church with some anger. Not everyone knew this; but some experienced first hand just how bitter I was about being a participant in five generations of deception. When I resigned my membership, I wrote a letter that was far too aggressive, in my opinion. Soon thereafter, I drafted a letter attempting to illustrate Joseph Smith as less than a martyr and less than a prophet, and sent it out to thirty or forty people in Brigham City (friends, relatives, acquaintances, respected school teachers, etc.). That sparked a firestorm of persecution (I was unprepared for the Jekyll-Hyde switch many people made), though some of this was directed at my father and his business. This generated an acute tension between my father and I, given his persistence in Mormonism. I was disinvited to family reunions for over a decade because of my letter.

Simply put, I was less gracious than I should have been. Great zeal, little tact. I probably still would write such a letter, though I likely would wait a couple of years, personalize it, and draft it more carefully. I now would couch in autobiographical terms, granting the readers an opportunity to sympathize with my process and processing.

I've spent the past decade seeking to rebuild those relationships. We've been invited to family reunions for the past few years. We've attended twice. We even had one of my relatives (one who had expressed the most aggressive response to my exodus) willing to visit us here in England. It has been difficult creating a context for mutual respect and understanding. Thankfully, such a context seems to have arisen.

On a different note, I would suggest that one of the biggest struggles I've seen among the exiles of many such faiths is a lack of trust in other people, a selective skepticism, and a tendency to cast continuing Mormons as intellectually or morally flawed.

Regarding trust: I'm not sure what it was, maybe it has to do with my persisting and informed adherence to the Bible, or my participation in a broader and older Christian tradition, but I've found that with caution and carefulness I can express a degree of trust in spite of my exodus from Mormonism. I think that many of us (post-Mormons) face a major hurdle when it comes to non-Mormon churches. We're still infected (if I may) with the illusion that there is and must be "one true church" out there somewhere. Thus we flounder around hither and thither, all the while being enslaved to a false premise of Mormonism itself.

Regarding selective skepticism: I know a good number of post-mormons who fall into the ditch of, "well, if 'the one true church' isn't true after all, then nothing else can be." Personally, I think that an unfortunate and unwarranted posture, a residual Mormon premise. Another false premise. Here a good number of folks, all the while expressing unmitigated criticism toward Mormonism (which is not proper in extreme forms) fail to host a healthy skepticism toward other truth-claimants. Thus critics of theism or creation or the Bible are adopted and entrusted with unquestioned allegiance. Dawkins becomes a hero. Prometheus Books becomes the new authority. I suppose this may be due to a certain comradery one feels with certain critics. But I would suggest that a healthy and balanced skepticism will question the critics as well. Just because someone is against something I am against too, does not mean their criticisms are inherently valid.

Regarding emotional arrogance: It took me some time to be disabused of the illusion that those who disagree with me must be intellectual dullards. Not only am I able to admit that I am in error, at least some of the time, but I've come to see that there are many tributaries to our decision-making. None of us is without prejudice, immune to emotional commitments, with access to all the relevant data, with infallible methods of assessment in hand. We need other people. We can appreciate the process of discovery as well as what is discovered. And truth is, by and large, something discovered rather than invented.

Well, I've gone on far too long. I hope I've offered something helpful, meager though it may be.

Kind regards, Kevin (http://www.kevinbywater.com)

Considering the fact that part of the mission of this website is to provide support to people who are in the process of leaving as well as those who have been gone for a while, I thought it might be interesting to ask people who have been out for a while what some of the pitfalls are, the traps if you will, of coming out of Mormonism? What were the hard lessons learned that you would do differently if you could go back? Or what did you do that you are glad you did, or that seemed like an effective strategy? I know that there are as many ways out of the Church as there are Post-Mo's, but assuming there is power in learning from the mistakes and successes of others...what have you learned?

Paul

[silverfox]

Thanks for sharing your blog link...I will check it out when I get a few minutes.

I've been thinking about this. My in laws are very TBM and I was on (in my best Dan Akroyd Blues Brothers immpersonation) "a mission from God" to make sure my father in law knew I no longer believed. I could see where I could start shoving my disbeliefs down his throat just like he shoves his Mo ones down mine. Luckily I caught myself before too much damage was done.

I think we react this way because we want to know we are loved and accepted with church beliefs out of the equation. We are somewhat insecure in our new skins...it's a lonely place to be. What are your thoughts on this?

For the most part we were once in their shoes and would have reacted just like them. I have to make a huge effort at times to remember that. I also find it difficult though that TBMs feel they should be allowed to talk about thier beliefs but ex mo's can't. There has to be mutual respect and unconditional love.

Unfortunately as in your case and so many others family ties are strained.

My father in law is just now getting to where he isn't sending Mo emails, stories, talks to me. I have never sent him anything to contest them. I figure that's why there's a delete button but I found it tiring to ONLY get Mo emails from him and nothing personal asking about the kids, etc.

I am rambling. Good post, thanks for sharing.

[Jeff_Ricks]

Regarding selective skepticism: I know a good number of post-mormons who fall into the ditch of, "well, if 'the one true church' isn't true after all, then nothing else can be." Personally, I think that an unfortunate and unwarranted posture, a residual Mormon premise. Another false premise. Here a good number of folks, all the while expressing unmitigated criticism toward Mormonism (which is not proper in extreme forms) fail to host a healthy skepticism toward other truth-claimants. Thus critics of theism or creation or the Bible are adopted and entrusted with unquestioned allegiance. Dawkins becomes a hero. Prometheus Books becomes the new authority. I suppose this may be due to a certain comradery one feels with certain critics. But I would suggest that a healthy and balanced skepticism will question the critics as well. Just because someone is against something I am against too, does not mean their criticisms are inherently valid.


I don't mean to offend Kevin, but some of your statements in the above excerpt rub me the wrong way because they come across as on the arrogant side. First, you declare that those who leave Mormonism and also choose to leave religion in general "fall into the ditch." Then you declare it a "false premise" when people find reasonable what Dawkins and the likes of him have to say, and further declare that they do so with “unquestioned allegiance.” I think you’re being pretty narrow minded in your assessment. Leaving Mormonism taught me the importance of critical thinking. I found Mormonism to fall apart when subject to critical thinking. Although I attended a Christian church and was a Bible believer for almost two years after I left Mormonism I found the Bible and Christianity to fall apart under critical thinking and had no choice but to leave it as well. I didn’t lose my faith as a “residual” of losing my faith in Mormonism as you imply. I do find that most of what I’ve read of Dawkins, and most of what I’ve studied about evolution holds up under critical thinking, but I certainly don’t accept either with “unquestioned allegiance” as you have declared.

Reminder: People are welcome to post here who have aligned themselves with another religion but please respect the rules of the forum and don’t use it for promoting your religion. There have been two or three posts in the last week that haven’t crossed that line but are uncomfortably close to it.

Jeff

[kevinbywater]

I don't mean to offend Kevin, but some of your statements in the above excerpt rub me the wrong way because they come across as on the arrogant side. First, you declare that those who leave Mormonism and also choose to leave religion in general "fall into the ditch." Then you declare it a "false premise" when people find reasonable what Dawkins and the likes of him have to say, and further declare that they do so with “unquestioned allegiance.” I think you’re being pretty narrow minded in your assessment. Leaving Mormonism taught me the importance of critical thinking. I found Mormonism to fall apart when subject to critical thinking. Although I attended a Christian church and was a Bible believer for almost two years after I left Mormonism I found the Bible and Christianity to fall apart under critical thinking and had no choice but to leave it as well. I didn’t lose my faith as a “residual” of losing my faith in Mormonism as you imply. I do find that most of what I’ve read of Dawkins, and most of what I’ve studied about evolution holds up under critical thinking, but I certainly don’t accept either with “unquestioned allegiance” as you have declared.

Dear Jeff,

No offence taken. I apologize that my criticisms of Dawkins (and his adherents) came off as arrogant. I attempted to supply a some qualifications to avoid that. I failed. I’m sorry. Please do permit me to clarify.

First, the target of my remarks about "the ditch" and "a false premise" had to do with a psychological or emotional posture over against non-Mormon religious truth-claims. I trust we would agree that it is easy/natural for many of us post-Mormons to posture ourselves with such an attitude of dismissiveness, deriving from the "one true church or nothing else" premise. It is that premise that I called “false” (not the promotion of Dawkins, per se).

Secondly, when someone actually engages in significant study (say, regarding evolutionary theories), and finds them persuasive, what I wrote would not apply to them. (Of course, slippery here is what I mean by “significant study.” I suppose that is a bit arbitrary and would vary from case to case. But at the very least it would include a study of the critics of the critics.) My particular concern regards a rather uncritical alignment with all things critical of religious faith, of whatever variety, color or flavor. Typically attending this reactive attitude is a tendency to mock those who disagree.

Third, when I think of “critical thinking,” I have in mind at least three things: logical analysis, evidentiary analysis, and worldview analysis. The former is rather straightforward: arguments are examined for logical soundness and validity. The second, related to the first, is rather common as well: evidences are examined to see whether they are as they are said to be. The third is one not as often considered: worldview analysis embraces the other two and emphasizes an examination of presuppositions, coherency and viability as well. (I’m being overly brief here.) (I’ll not bother with any particular application of these thoughts.)

I trust you and I can agree that some who appreciate Dawkins may have good reasons for doing so; and some who don't appreciate Dawkins (in terms of overall agreement) may have good reasons for doing so as well. The same goes for other truth claimants.

Nevertheless, the purpose of my post is to apologize for my unclear thoughts and arrogant tone. I ask for your forgiveness.

Kind regards, Kevin

[peter_mary]

First, the target of my remarks about "the ditch" and "a false premise" had to do with a psychological or emotional posture over against non-Mormon religious truth-claims. I trust we would agree that it is easy/natural for many of us post-Mormons to posture ourselves with such an attitude of dismissiveness, deriving from the "one true church or nothing else" premise. It is that premise that I called “false” (not the promotion of Dawkins, per se).

Kind regards, Kevin



Actually, I'd like to gently and in the spirit of dialogue challenge this point for just a moment. I think you are spot-on that this pendulum swing from "the one true to Church" to "their ain't no Church" is natural, but to suggest that it is "false" is leaning too heavily on one single perspective, and may be making too many assumptions about what happens in the hearts and minds of other folks. By claiming it to be a "false" premise is to assume that there is still a "correct" premise, and that those who come to a different conclusion have erred.

Is it not also possible that in the process of deconstructing Mormonism, that many indeed deconstructed the premise of religion in general, in a parallel process? And can they not be satisfied in that new world-view in and of itself, and not because it is simply a knee-jerk response to the "one true or nothing" paradigm? More importantly, can't that be done absent ANY kind of religious study, analysis of critics, or even reading the critics, but simply because it brings them peace? From your posts, it is evident that a continued course in Christian study has brought you peace. Some of that is no doubt because you have studied a great deal and the analysis on your part seems sound to you. But more importantly, I suspect it is how it makes you feel that binds you to that perspective more tightly than anything you think. That same feeling can be attendent upon those who deconstruct all religion, too, and that is a hard pill to swallow for those who have chosen for themselves a religious path. Those who have chosen a Christian path are still making similar claims as those who remain in the Mormon Church, that there is a "right" way to perceive your place in the universe, that there is an objective God (albeit not the God of Joseph Smith) who maintains certain expectations, and that it remains in the seeker's best interest to try to figure out what that God wants before you die so that you can properly align yourself for salvation. Subsequently, there remains a degree of intolerance to someone who believes otherwise, and to use your own words, their perspective, and the process by which they arrived there, must be "false."

The conclusion I have come to in my short 42 years of the human experience is that I can't "KNOW" what moves another, and hence I can't make assumptions about how they see themselves in relationship to the universe. Whether they have availed themselves to powerful analytical tools and libraries of good books, or whether it simply "feels" right to them, it remains a mystery to me the validity of their perspective. Plain and simply, I cannot know. And so I choose not to allow my own experience to cloud my perception of someone else's journey (well, I TRY not to, but like everyone else, I get in my own way more often than I would care to admit :) ). Ultimately, we all base our life decisions on what feels right for us. You, Jeff, myself, and numerous others on this board have indeed chosen a lengthy course of study, and interestingly, we've come to different, and I would argue, equally valid conclusions. But we engaged in that sport not because we were more enlightened in our penchant for study, but because it felt good...we liked to do it. Others on this board may have read very little, analyzed less, and still have come to new and startling conclusions that inform new and powerful paradigms that guide their lives in equally important ways. A dear friend of mine has only now begun the process of deconstructing Mormonism AND religion in general several years AFTER deciding that religion simply didn't "work" for her. The abandonment of her religious perspectives came about first because it left her feeling spiritually devoid. And I believe that her process is equally valid, though a different one than I choose for myself.

Before I sign off, I'd like to commend you, Kevin, for staying engaged in the dialogue. I believe I have a ton to learn from the billions of people who see things differently than I do, and I trust you feel the same.

Paul

[bigeddy]

Ah, and the dialectical process goes on; wonderful!!

Ed

[free thinker]

I love this stuff!!! :)


Free Thinker

[kevinbywater]

Paul, just a few quick thoughts.

By claiming it to be a "false" premise is to assume that there is still a "correct" premise, and that those who come to a different conclusion have erred. [QUOTE=paul]

Certainly so. But on a forum like this, filled with post-Mormons (or nearly-post-Mormons), we all grant that there is a difference between truth and falsehood, with error being a real live possibility. Are you meaning to suggest that I am in error?

[QUOTE=paul]…simply because it brings them peace? From your posts, it is evident that a continued course in Christian study has brought you peace. Some of that is no doubt because you have studied a great deal and the analysis on your part seems sound to you. But more importantly, I suspect it is how it makes you feel that binds you to that perspective more tightly than anything you think.

So, my studies have lead me to the hold that my conclusions “seem sound” to me. Of course, though I’m still in process like everyone else. When you says “seem,” do you mean to imply that they actually are not sound? If so, fair enough.

But you seem to believe that people hold their convictions and draw their conclusions based on their feelings, especially the feeling of peace. You suggest this is what drives me. Well, if you'd like to analyze my psychological motivations, then I think you’d need to ask more questions of me and gain a bit more data. To suggest that my life is filled with peace is, well, an assumption. As I see it, resident within the Christian tradition is a robust tradition of self-examination and self-critique. This doesn’t often generate a peaceful promotion of the status quo. As Chesterton once said (approximately), "It is not that Christianity has been tried and found wanting. It is that it has been found difficult and left untried."

Besides, I thought the whole feelings=truth construct was part and parcel of Mormonism (at least in its folk varieties). I gave up the burning in the bosom criterion some time ago . . . I pray.

Those who have chosen a Christian path are still making similar claims as those who remain in the Mormon Church, that there is a "right" way to perceive your place in the universe, that there is an objective God (albeit not the God of Joseph Smith) who maintains certain expectations, and that it remains in the seeker's best interest to try to figure out what that God wants before you die so that you can properly align yourself for salvation. Subsequently, there remains a degree of intolerance to someone who believes otherwise, and to use your own words, their perspective, and the process by which they arrived there, must be "false."

So, are you tolerating or being critical of my views? Are you suggesting that my views, such as they are (though I’ve revealed relatively little on this forum, due primarily to the editorial restrictions), are “false.”

Yes, that is exactly what you are saying. And I’m perfectly fine with that. The discussion continues. But I sense a problem in how you are attempting to construct the rhetorical field of discourse.

Tolerance presupposes that we disagree; for if we agreed, there would be no need for tolerance. We would agree. Intolerance, on the other hand, has little or nothing to do with critical engagement or disagreement. Nor does it have to do with eschatological threat, that famed eternal fork in the road, if I may. When we speak of tolerance in our day we should be speaking of “social tolerance” wherein we can treat people with differing skin color, gender, ethnicity and nationality with civility. It also pertains to manifesting civility toward those of differing religious convictions and, dare I say, sexual preferences. (Even here, though, it is not as though we drop all boundaries and embrace those advocating incest, pedophilia, bestiality or abuse. We are intolerant of those activities and any who engage in them.) We confuse tolerance when we equate it with affirmation. Embrace, affirmation, agreement, and such are not synonyms of tolerance. Otherwise, your expressed disagreement with me is nothing less than intolerant (which is not how I see it).

The conclusion I have come to in my short 42 years of the human experience is that I can't "KNOW" what moves another, and hence I can't make assumptions about how they see themselves in relationship to the universe.

I could be wrong here, but didn't you, just above, claim to know what moved me to my convictions? A feeling of peace, wasn’t it?

Whether they have availed themselves to powerful analytical tools and libraries of good books, or whether it simply "feels" right to them, it remains a mystery to me the validity of their perspective. Plain and simply, I cannot know.

Do you not know what motivates people to their perspective, or do you not know whether their perspective is valid? Do you mean to say that we cannot know the difference between truth and falsehood, or that there actually is no difference? Are you suggesting that we cannot ascertain the truth regarding Joseph Smith’s claims to prophethood or the LDS Church’s alleged whitewashing of Joseph’s character?

And so I choose not to allow my own experience to cloud my perception of someone else's journey (well, I TRY not to, but like everyone else, I get in my own way more often than I would care to admit :) ).

Yep, we're all working on that one.

Ultimately, we all base our life decisions on what feels right for us.

Now, wait just a minute. You said you didn't know such things, right? You said that such things were assumptions that we shouldn't make, right? But here you claim to have located just what it is that motivates you and everyone else to their conclusions. Personally, I think that most people have a number of tributaries leading to their conclusions and subsequent convictions. I think it reductionistic to boil it all down to feelings. After all, I’m post-Mormonism.

You, Jeff, myself, and numerous others on this board have indeed chosen a lengthy course of study, and interestingly, we've come to different, and I would argue, equally valid conclusions.

Certainly you don't believe this, do you? Equally valid? Then why disagree with me. My view is as valid as your view. Is that what you’re suggesting? That’s not what it felt like earlier in your post.

So is it equally valid to believe in Joseph Smith’s claims and teachings as to disbelieve in them? Is it equally valid to conclude that what the LDS Church claims about the Book of Mormon comports with reality as it is to disbelieve such claims? What do you mean by "valid"? Certainly we have a civil right to believe whatever we want to believe. But believing something does not make it comport with reality.

But we engaged in that sport not because we were more enlightened in our penchant for study, but because it felt good...we liked to do it.

So, is it the joy of investigation that you speak of here? If so, well, I must suggest that early on, I had no joy in it at all. The hours upon hours, days upon days, I spent huddled in a back corner of the USU library were very dark and oppressive days. The turn of each page brought resurgent threat. The persistent fear of discovery, the pervasive fear of alienation, the sleeplessness, the tears, the loneliness . . . there was no joy. But there was the need to find out the truth. I had to press through the lack of peace.

That said, now I now relish the joys and pains of discovery, as well as the process. Shoot, I’ve become a researcher and lecturer by profession. I’m even doing a research PhD here in England. But please believe me when I say that I have many days on which I've wished I could change to something less cerebral, such as a manual profession. We’ve remodeled our home in Colorado. I loved breaking away from the books and the computer moniters to swing a hammer, rev up the saw, splatter some paint, and otherwise just have fun with demolition and construction.

Others on this board may have read very little, analyzed less, and still have come to new and startling conclusions that inform new and powerful paradigms that guide their lives in equally important ways.

By "important" do you mean "valid." If so, then you're using "valid" in a very eccentric fashion. Certainly, people can derive significant convictions from various trajectories of life. But this by no means implies that all beliefs are equally true to reality. If that were so, then we all might as well not bother with our misty problems with Mormonism.

A dear friend of mine has only now begun the process of deconstructing Mormonism AND religion in general several years AFTER deciding that religion simply didn't "work" for her. The abandonment of her religious perspectives came about first because it left her feeling spiritually devoid. And I believe that her process is equally valid, though a different one than I choose for myself.

I can respect someone who comes to conclusions other than my own. I can respect their process as well. But I do not think that giving up the law of non-contradiction is in any wise useful for determining truth (truth being a quality enjoyed by beliefs and statements that correspond to what actually obtains in the world).

Before I sign off, I'd like to commend you, Kevin, for staying engaged in the dialogue. I believe I have a ton to learn from the billions of people who see things differently than I do, and I trust you feel the same.

Thank you. And I commend you as well. I’ve enjoyed our conversation, though I feel I can’t devote quite as much time to it for the next few days. Deadlines and such.

Kind regards,
Kevin

[Born Free]

I know that there are as many ways out of the Church as there are Post-Mo's, but assuming there is power in learning from the mistakes and successes of others...what have you learned?

Paul

Paul,

Great question, and I am convinced that the lessons learnt in that space have high relevence in society today. Let me illustrate from my own experience.

When we left, I was convinced that the Church was the source of all my pain. Over time, I came to appreciate that the boundary line separating my family-of-origin and the Church was very fuzzy. By that I mean, that it was no accident they were attracted to it, just as I believe we are not attracted to the partner we are in a vacuum of meaning. We are attracted to a partner with a similar level of self-esteem, and similarly well or poorly differentiated.

The implications of that are that the mindset of Mormonism, was significantly in my family-of-origin. So when I/we walked away, more of the problem was in my head, than I copuld or wanted to see or acknowledge.

So, what was the effect of that?

I replaced Mormonism with a New Ageish "Inner Energy Centre' where I did guided meditation, and learnt lots of good things, AND concluded about 10 years later that I had replicated many of the dynamics of Mormonism. Cult like dynamics! Different faces, different place, but many of the same issues. I believed that the answer to my problems lay outside myself, and that there was some magic way forward that could avoid mistakes. BIG MISTAKE!!! (Sound like Moland???)

I discovered that I was still lacking in a well developed intuition, a good bull-shit detector, that I distrusted my spirituality, indeed that I believed I was spiritually damaged goods. I could go on, and on, but I hope you get the point.

I have asked in another thread about other peoples experience with projection and boundaries, because those are the areas where I found I was most in need of growth. Mormonism is largely a boundary-free zone. People asking about whether you masturbate etc. That was a reflection of a mother who felt it was within her parental rights and responsibilities to read my mail as a late teenager. What boundaries?

So I had escaped Moism, but I still suffered from poor boundary management in some settings (mostly the intimate ones, where it matters most). I had got away from Mosim, but I still had a strong tendency to project my problems with intimacy onto my wife as criticisms of her sexuality. Really healthy eh?

What has all that got to do with the broader picture of our culture. People like Spong have made detailed observations of the falling away from traditional religion, and concurrently the rushing to fundamentaism of a minority who are panicking in teh face of teh decay of tradional structures of meaning. I interpret that as meaning that many people will be in a situation of having some of the elements of my experience. And then they flounder around searching for meaning. Materialism offers one answer, but a very shallow one in my opinion.

What else is on offer?

Charlotans by the score, let me warn you. Pseudo-spiritual ones, financial ones, health ones. The list is long. Techinques of mind-control are now well established, but even within psychology, there are many that still hold to the erronious belief that a becalmed state is the best way to hyptonise. Wrong! An elevated mood state will do better, so loud music of the right beat, dancing, the right lighting, time disorientation, etc, can all be used to effectively shut down or badly disorient the critical faculties of the left side of the brain, leaving the right side open like a barn door for reprogramming. A person can be really messed up in just one weekend, if they open themselves up to the wrong people.

I believe everyone should be familiar with the techiques used by some of these people. In this country there is an excellent book written by a female psychologist entitled Dangerous Persuaders. It probably has a US equivalent. I encourage everyone to read such a book. NLP is just one example of a now widely used and powerful techique, that can be used for great good in the hands of the ethical practitioner, but abused by the shonky.

When you look at it, religion has many of those elements of mind-control. What matters here is not the techiques, but whether the people who employ them, consciously or otherwise, are doing so with good intent, and if they are competent.

So from my experience, there is one gaping trap, that I would caution very strongly against. In my case, Moism/the family had messed with my head far more seriously than I had factored in. So do not fall into the trap of believing that your probelms are in the bag, just because you walk out the door, and leave the Church behind.

There may be, and likely are, areas of your development, that are distorted or even under-developed as a result, and if you want to live life to the max, I recommend you find a way to locate and address those.

None of the above is a reason to delay your departure from Moism. Indeed, I would suggest they are a reason to get moving ASAP. The other caution might be to watch for depression, but if you suspect you are depressed, don't go running off to the nearest doctor for a pill as the single solution to your problem. That is far from best practice, and dangerous in some cases.

[peter_mary]

So from my experience, there is one gaping trap, that I would caution very strongly against. In my case, Moism/the family had messed with my head far more seriously than I had factored in. So do not fall into the trap of believing that your probelms are in the bag, just because you walk out the door, and leave the Church behind.

There may be, and likely are, areas of your development, that are distorted or even under-developed as a result, and if you want to live life to the max, I recommend you find a way to locate and address those.



I'm not a psychologist, but I seem to remember that people who become addicts become arrested at roughly the developmental level in which they became addicted. When they break the addiction cycle, they often have to begin the developmental process again, picking up where they left off (which often means they have to work through adolescent issues). It seems to me that Church members suffer similarly, with most of the real mind-programming happening in Primary and the Youth programs. Subsequently, when people manage to escape the Church, they find that they haven't really experienced some of the normal, developmental opportunities that other folks have had...like you said, their heads are not prepared for the wide-open world of infinite possibilities they now encounter. That's why I think the "traps" question is so relevant...it's because we're like children stepping off the playground into New York City (or Sydney! :) ), having gone from swing to subway in a single step.

Paul

[Jeff_Ricks]

I'm not a psychologist, but I seem to remember that people who become addicts become arrested at roughly the developmental level in which they became addicted. When they break the addiction cycle, they often have to begin the developmental process again, picking up where they left off (which often means they have to work through adolescent issues). It seems to me that Church members suffer similarly, with most of the real mind-programming happening in Primary and the Youth programs. Subsequently, when people manage to escape the Church, they find that they haven't really experienced some of the normal, developmental opportunities that other folks have had...like you said, their heads are not prepared for the wide-open world of infinite possibilities they now encounter. That's why I think the "traps" question is so relevant...it's because we're like children stepping off the playground into New York City (or Sydney! :) ), having gone from swing to subway in a single step.

Paul

Having left the church, then a few years later left a marriage (kids came with me though) and stepped into the singles world again after 23 years, I got a bit of a double whammy. I once told a woman I was going out with in my first year single that I felt like one of those dogs that wears a collar with a zapper on it. And it was as if I was turned loose in a big back yard with no fence, except for a virtual fence made of a wire buried under the ground that causes the collar to zap me whenever I attempt to cross over it. In other words, I had little idea where the boundaries are in the normal world, but there was only one way to find out – get zapped many times. Now, four years later there have been no slaps on the face or anything like that (that I would admit to), but a number of awkward moments, clueless stares, and embarrassing questions like, “what’s a vibrator for?”

At times I’ve also felt like an alien from another planet who needs educating from scratch about how this world functions as opposed to the one I came from. The TV show, “Third Rock from the Sun” comes to mind, and my part is the idiot alien, “Dick.”

I know you don’t have to be single to have these same feelings and experiences as a former Mormon. All you need to do is get out among the normal people and interact. Does anyone have any funny, embarrassing experiences like mine they’d like share. Or have I been the only clueless Dick on this planet?

Jeff

[silverfox]

I never looked at the lack of boundaries in the way it's being presented in this thread. I find it very thought provoking and helpful looking back on some of my experiences exiting the church.

Where the h*ll have you guys been????? :)

[Born Free]

Does anyone have any funny, embarrassing experiences like mine they’d like share. Or have I been the only clueless Dick on this planet?

Jeff

Jeff,

I can't bring many to mind right now, but will return, as there are plenty.

You are far from alone, and thanks for being vulnerable enough to share that. I am rapidly coming to appreciate that this can be one of the main healings of being actively, and thoughfully involved in the community.

I am feeling better as I unbundle all the irts from all those years. Laughter is great medicine, and there is an endless supply of stuff to laugh about. :)

[silverfox]

Does anyone have any funny, embarrassing experiences like mine they’d like share. Or have I been the only clueless Dick on this planet?

Jeff

Looks like you're standing on your own, buddy! LOL Just kidding. Just the whole underwear thing was weird for me...I felt like an idiot. I didn't know you could buy so many different kinds of underwear.....thongs, low rise bikini, hi rise bikini, hi thigh cut, regular bikini, boy cut, etc, etc, etc. Hell, it's like being a kid in a candy store.

And bras!!! Pads all over the damn place, water bras, strapless bras, criss cross bras, sports bras, all colors.

I just wish I hadn't covered up my figure while it was at it's prime with those ugly garments. Sheeeesh (and I thought having a choice between calf length and knee length was exciting! or mesh and cotton)

Mid 40's and I'm like a back hills idiot who doesn't even know what underwear is (no offense to back hills idiots) in the underwear department. (but it's lots of fun)

[Jeff_Ricks]

Looks like you're standing on your own, buddy! LOL Just kidding.

I was beginning to wonder!! Whew!!

I can't say that I can relate to the female underwear thing though ;) , but it's nice to know I'm not alone!

"(no offense to back hills idiots) " <-- That comment had me rolling on the floor!

Jeff

[miss taken]

Hi Paul, your advice is very good, my anger was righteous anger not an uncontrolled anger. It was not hateful anger and I did not show anger to the people, but it was powerful to them. My anger was inside me and aimed at the church not the people, if I had not taken 3 months to research and get my convictions together the anger would have been a very bad thing indeed. Yes I was and probably am still talked about. I have lived in the same area and still do for the last 45 years, since I was 7 years old. Its been 16 years since I did that. I still meet old members all the time, some respect me for being strong willed and maybe honest but misguided in their minds. But most fear me somehow, I am sure I am the devil to some of them. I am sure that someone displaying honesty and freedom scares them. I know a few are envious, I've had a couple of members tell me they have doubts about the church but can't imagine paying the price I paid. I can't imagine hanging in there with the doubts I had and they have. I am so much more happy out from under the bondage. My happiness baffles them, too.

Thanx, Randy and thanx for this forum it is a blessing.

Randy, wow, I hadn't read this thread before. That was extremely brave. Reminds me of a guy who got up in a meeting where a GA was talking, and came to the front (he was a non-mormon) and started talking about the corrections to the bom. I'm sitting there admiring the bloke! (even if I was thinking...ah come on...you can do better than that...you aint convincing no one in here....he was doing the usual evangelical christian thing, which won't wash with any mormon), anyway, this girl stands up, really rattled and upset, and starts bearing her testimony. And the guy up on the podium tells the 'imposter'!! to go away as 'this is our meeting'.

More people bear impromptu testimonies, and I'm sitting there thinking. Wow, this spices things up, wish it would happen more often.....

I also remember someone actually having the guts to put his hand up when asked if anyone objected about a certain person receiving a calling. There was definitely this hushed...huh....he can't do that.....he's not supposed to do that. Funny....

My exit was quiet and unassuming. I swore I would never leave cause someone upset me, but that I would be rational, and intelligent about it. I think I left for the right reasons. I just couldn't put my hand up and say I totally believed it anymore. Simple as that....

On from that... I wonder if there are 'right' and 'wrong' reasons to leave the church.

Mary

[Born Free]

Having left the church, then a few years later left a marriage (kids came with me though) and stepped into the singles world again after 23 years, I got a bit of a double whammy. I once told a woman I was going out with in my first year single that I felt like one of those dogs that wears a collar with a zapper on it. And it was as if I was turned loose in a big back yard with no fence, except for a virtual fence made of a wire buried under the ground that causes the collar to zap me whenever I attempt to cross over it. In other words, I had little idea where the boundaries are in the normal world, but there was only one way to find out – get zapped many times. Now, four years later there have been no slaps on the face or anything like that (that I would admit to), but a number of awkward moments, clueless stares, and embarrassing questions like, “what’s a vibrator for?”

At times I’ve also felt like an alien from another planet who needs educating from scratch about how this world functions as opposed to the one I came from. The TV show, “Third Rock from the Sun” comes to mind, and my part is the idiot alien, “Dick.”

I know you don’t have to be single to have these same feelings and experiences as a former Mormon. All you need to do is get out among the normal people and interact. Does anyone have any funny, embarrassing experiences like mine they’d like share. Or have I been the only clueless Dick on this planet?

Jeff

Jeff,
I have remembered one area - when I started having a few alcoholic drinks.

I recall feeling like a dumb, clueless, unspohisticated kid again. I was amazed that, in spite of knowing the science of alcohol, I was deeply fearful of being taken somehow in its "grip".

It was one area that made really clear to me how fear-based Moism is.

I drink very moderately to this day, both becasue I do not like feeling "out of control", and because I have a fairly low tolerance, but love a good wine with a good meal and company.

Daryl

[drjolly1]

I think the biggest trap is being so abused by the church and not realizing the extent to which our acknowledging of our abuse and pain is only the first step to becoming whole. It's so easy to get stuck here. The church has raped many of us, plain and simple. It's awful. Devastating. Unfair. A tragedy. This must be experienced, grieved and eventually integrated into who we are, into an acceptance of what our lives have been. Later, we must look at our motives for wanting to believe! Why did I want it so bad? What would have been the alternative to believing it all? What would have been too hard for me to face back then? Why? I think that this part of the journey is where the meat of recovery is. I think that this is where you carve out your very self in bold relief. When you answer these questions deeply and honestly I think you can start to become yourself.
Andy

[gracie]

I think the biggest trap is being so abused by the church and not realizing the extent to which our acknowledging of our abuse and pain is only the first step to becoming whole. It's so easy to get stuck here. The church has raped many of us, plain and simple. It's awful. Devastating. Unfair. A tragedy. This must be experienced, grieved and eventually integrated into who we are, into an acceptance of what our lives have been. Later, we must look at our motives for wanting to believe! Why did I want it so bad? What would have been the alternative to believing it all? What would have been too hard for me to face back then? Why? I think that this part of the journey is where the meat of recovery is. I think that this is where you carve out your very self in bold relief. When you answer these questions deeply and honestly I think you can start to become yourself.
Andy
This really makes sense to me. Lately I have been asking myself, what did I get out of being a TBM? Why did I choose to continue to participate on the level that I did (unconciously or not)? What part of myself allowed the abuse to continue? What do I need to learn or develop to trust myself over an external directing my decisions? etc And all this I think helps me define who I am now, what I want to develop and what direction I want to go next. This is where the truth, the sometimes ugly, get-wrenching, soul-searing Truth, can eventually make me free.
Gracie

[noodle]

Hey if we ever get together and have a party or picnic or something we need a bull shaped paper mache pinata. We can beat the crap out of it. :) And the treats will be tasty.

And the pinata will be filled with coffee flavored and vodka candies!

[stu4491]

I thank those of you whom have responded to this thread with their insight as to what they did and how it worked out for them. I am very new to this site and am just in the process of figuring out what my next step is as I have come to know that the church was not founded by a true prophet. My wife knows how I feel and she does not feel the same way yet and so I am not giving her any pressure to come along with the way I am now believing. My whole world as well as hers is composed of associations with TBM family and friends and it is just something that my wife can not fathom to give up at the present. I am much more of a loner, so to speak, and I just can not continue to go to church and pretend to believe when I have such convictions that it is all based on untruths. I am one who just wants to know the truth and go from there even when it might be painful. I think my way to do this will be slow and patient. I will not volunteer my new beliefs to friends and family but will be truthful with them if they ask. I now have a lot of strong opionion on things with the church that just does not make sense to me or ring true and I will share that with them if confronted. I am certain that it is near impossible to get most TBMs to understand how and why you feel the way you do as to them it all comes down to faith, prayer, and burning testimony as to answers to some of the problem areas of the church and its history. So that is where I stand for the time and will just take it slow and continue to read, study, and listen to what others have to say. Stewart ;)

[Born Free]

I thank those of you whom have responded to this thread with their insight as to what they did and how it worked out for them. I am very new to this site and am just in the process of figuring out what my next step is as I have come to know that the church was not founded by a true prophet. My wife knows how I feel and she does not feel the same way yet and so I am not giving her any pressure to come along with the way I am now believing. My whole world as well as hers is composed of associations with TBM family and friends and it is just something that my wife can not fathom to give up at the present. I am much more of a loner, so to speak, and I just can not continue to go to church and pretend to believe when I have such convictions that it is all based on untruths. I am one who just wants to know the truth and go from there even when it might be painful. I think my way to do this will be slow and patient. I will not volunteer my new beliefs to friends and family but will be truthful with them if they ask. I now have a lot of strong opionion on things with the church that just does not make sense to me or ring true and I will share that with them if confronted. I am certain that it is near impossible to get most TBMs to understand how and why you feel the way you do as to them it all comes down to faith, prayer, and burning testimony as to answers to some of the problem areas of the church and its history. So that is where I stand for the time and will just take it slow and continue to read, study, and listen to what others have to say. Stewart ;)

Stewart,

I'd value your input into the Stages of Post Mormon Experience thread, by testing the draft model there against your recent and ongoing journey.

Daryl